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Alright, enough religious debate. If you want to talk about Pope Benedict and what he specifically did or didn't do, go ahead. But no more general discussion on the merits or ills of the Catholic church or their history.
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On February 12 2013 05:01 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 04:58 Chylo wrote:On February 12 2013 04:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Would be interesting that if the successor is chosen from Africa if that will signal a change in attitude towards the region in terms of AIDS, and safe sex etc. Sorry, but the Catholic Church will never change it's moral teachings on condoms etc. Actually, it probably will, in time. Benedict already made a speech permitting condoms for prostitutes in dire need. That would have been unheard of 20 years ago. The Church is slow, but it's not motionless. Contraception, so long as it doesn't induce abortions, will likely be permitted in some capacity within the next few decades. It will probably always be frowned upon if used exclusively, though. Glad to see him resign; very mature move. I didn't like him particularly much since he's too conservative, but he's at least a fairly upstanding man to resign due to age unlike PJPII, who stayed on far, far too long.
As I've pointed out previously in this thread, the bolded statement is false. The newspapers took a mile when they were given an inch.
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On February 12 2013 05:01 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 04:58 Chylo wrote:On February 12 2013 04:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Would be interesting that if the successor is chosen from Africa if that will signal a change in attitude towards the region in terms of AIDS, and safe sex etc. Sorry, but the Catholic Church will never change it's moral teachings on condoms etc. Actually, it probably will, in time. Benedict already made a speech permitting condoms for prostitutes in dire need. That would have been unheard of 20 years ago. The Church is slow, but it's not motionless. Contraception, so long as it doesn't induce abortions, will likely be permitted in some capacity within the next few decades. It will probably always be frowned upon if used exclusively, though. Glad to see him resign; very mature move. I didn't like him particularly much since he's too conservative, but he's at least a fairly upstanding man to resign due to age unlike PJPII, who stayed on far, far too long.
The Church recognizes prostitution and sex outside marriage as gravely sinful. Therefore there is no teaching on whether using condoms outside marriage is moral or not because it's irrelevant. He also did not say it was moral, but simply that in the case of a male prostitute that "where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility," In other words a first step in realizing the consequences of the actions the prostitute is doing.
Contraception will never be permitted by the Church. It already weathered that storm of pressure in the 1960s and with the release of Humanae Vitae kept it's teaching unchanged. The outcry for the teaching to be changed was FAR greater then. It's not even close now.
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I'm not a catholic nor a religious person, but in my opinion, that's a disappointing move Benoit made. To me, he's a quitter. You don't just abandon such a highly spiritual & religious task. You're the freaking leader, dude, you don't just resign. Either you're a Pope 4 lyfe, or you're a loser. I mean, Jesus didn't quit when he had to go through all his trials, he didn't "resign", because he knew how important his mission was.
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On February 12 2013 02:49 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 23:21 shadymmj wrote:On February 11 2013 23:19 SupLilSon wrote:On February 11 2013 22:45 scFoX wrote:
I'm sad to see him go. Contrary to what many atheists are saying in this thread, he is one of the most learned and profound people I've ever seen. Sure, he's not as glamorous as John Paul II, but he makes it up in brain power. I hope stepping down from office will improve his health. Really? Wasn't this Pope a former Hitler Youth? He also said some pretty ignorant stuff throughout his course as Pope imo. As a non-Christian, John Paul seemed like a much more attractive Pope than Benedict and actually demanded some respect because of this demeanor, words and actions.. yeah because the alternative to joining the hitler jugen was...? Maybe it wasn't his own volition which made him join. But still, as a non-Christian I thought that John Paul was an amazing representative for the Vatican and even if you disagreed with almost everything the Church stands for he was still an incredibly likable and charismatic individual. My opinion is simply that the Pope isnt really renowned for "brain power". He's a figure head, he's a symbol, a political item, not a thinker. It doesnt really matter if it was his choice or not, the fact is he was a Hitler Youth.
Please try to not make it sound like being a Hitler-Youth = Evil person.
A lot of Germans were members of the nazi party as well because you kind of had to
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On February 12 2013 05:15 Al Bundy wrote:
I'm not a catholic nor a religious person, but in my opinion, that's a disappointing move Benoit made. To me, he's a quitter. You don't just abandon such a highly spiritual & religious task. You're the freaking leader, dude, you don't just resign. Either you're a Pope 4 lyfe, or you're a loser. I mean, Jesus didn't quit when he had to go through all his trials, he didn't "resign", because he knew how important his mission was.
That a sitting Pope was able to identify his own physical ailings and inability to continue leading and then bow out, particularly after the slow withering of John Paul II previously, is actually an incredibly progressive event for the Catholic Church. The Pope is not Jesus, nor is he meant to be.
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And in the end, nothing of value is lost.
User was warned for this post
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On February 12 2013 05:23 derpface wrote:
And in the end, nothing of value is lost.
And with this post, nothing of value is gained.
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For me his move is a sign of weakness. Any leader Christian or not after abandoning his post is found either weak or not worthy at the first place.
I'm a Christian and I do believe in God and this is my honest opinion of the matter at hand.
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An interesting fact for people wondering/hoping for a more liberal pope...
Benedict was highly conservative... and has appointed 67 of the current 118 Cardinals. I'm only assuming they'll all vote conservatively.
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On February 12 2013 05:25 IceCube wrote:
For me his move is a sign of weakness. Any leader Christian or not after abandoning his post is found either weak or not worthy at the first place.
I'm a Christian and I do believe in God and this is my honest opinion of the matter at hand.
That's the entire point.......Benedict considered himself too weak to maintain his position as head of the Church, therefore he stepped down. He is 85 ya know.
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Any pope that doesnt call for a crusade is a bad pope. Hope the next one does better.
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On February 12 2013 05:26 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 05:25 IceCube wrote:
For me his move is a sign of weakness. Any leader Christian or not after abandoning his post is found either weak or not worthy at the first place.
I'm a Christian and I do believe in God and this is my honest opinion of the matter at hand. That's the entire point.......Benedict considered himself too weak to maintain his position as head of the Church, therefore he stepped down. He is 85 ya know.
You are right and that's the whole point, but what I meant was that he should set an example in his faith to all of us, the followers, in my eyes that's one of the main quests for a good leader. So now when we are in a hard spot (old, depressed, hungry...whatever, should we all just quit?)
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I seriously doubt the Pope knows TL exists, but he must have already considered everything that's discussed here beforehand. You don't just do something for the first time in 600 years without thinking over all the turmoil it brings. Whether people agree or not, he is very courageous making this decision.
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incoming EGBenedictRC.
Its huge news, but if his health is down then it makes sense I guess.
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On February 12 2013 05:37 IceCube wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 05:26 farvacola wrote:On February 12 2013 05:25 IceCube wrote:
For me his move is a sign of weakness. Any leader Christian or not after abandoning his post is found either weak or not worthy at the first place.
I'm a Christian and I do believe in God and this is my honest opinion of the matter at hand. That's the entire point.......Benedict considered himself too weak to maintain his position as head of the Church, therefore he stepped down. He is 85 ya know. You are right and that's the whole point, but what I meant was that he should set an example in his faith to all of us, the followers, in my eyes that's one of the main quests for a good leader. So now when we are in a hard spot (old, depressed, hungry...whatever, should we all just quit?)
Errrrrrr what?
Seriously?
We just (as in not 10 years ago) had a pope who literally could do nothing in the last 2 years of his reign and you want to go back to that?
Frankly it is a sign of moral fiber to recognise that it is time to take a step back and let someone else lead. No other institution in the world expects their heads (not even a figurehead, but the person who is supposed to be in control) to serve on their deathbed.
Yes one of his tasks is to set a good example for the believers of his faith. Where I disagree completely with what you have said is that he is "just" quitting. He served for 7 years at an age where almost everyone else just wants to sit back and spend time with their grandchildren. Frankly that must be enough.
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On February 12 2013 05:46 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 05:37 IceCube wrote:On February 12 2013 05:26 farvacola wrote:On February 12 2013 05:25 IceCube wrote:
For me his move is a sign of weakness. Any leader Christian or not after abandoning his post is found either weak or not worthy at the first place.
I'm a Christian and I do believe in God and this is my honest opinion of the matter at hand. That's the entire point.......Benedict considered himself too weak to maintain his position as head of the Church, therefore he stepped down. He is 85 ya know. You are right and that's the whole point, but what I meant was that he should set an example in his faith to all of us, the followers, in my eyes that's one of the main quests for a good leader. So now when we are in a hard spot (old, depressed, hungry...whatever, should we all just quit?) Errrrrrr what? Seriously? We just (as in not 10 years ago) had a pope who literally could do nothing in the last 2 years of his reign and you want to go back to that?Frankly it is a sign of moral fiber to recognise that it is time to take a step back and let someone else lead. No other institution in the world expects their heads (not even a figurehead, but the person who is supposed to be in control) to serve on their deathbed. Yes one of his tasks is to set a good example for the believers of his faith. Where I disagree completely with what you have said is that he is "just" quitting. He served for 7 years at an age where almost everyone else just wants to sit back and spend time with their grandchildren. Frankly that must be enough.
You said it yourself right there. He was dying and he still stood at the head of Christian Church, giving his last breath for what he stood for and showed true example of a great believer and faith in our Lord.
I'm guessing he also knew what was going to happen to him and he could have chosen easier path and just live the last days with his family or the closest ones but he didn't. He died gracefully in his faith and didn't broke 600 years old tradition of ones before him.
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On February 12 2013 05:35 KingMel wrote:
EG.Benedict.XVI
On February 12 2013 05:43 Bashnek wrote:
incoming EGBenedictRC.
Best posts! Seriously though, don't see why this is a big deal. No bigger deal than when Queen Beatrix made her announcement.
You said it yourself right there. He was dying and he still stood at the head of Christian Church, giving his last breath for what he stood for and showed true example of a great believer and faith in our Lord.
I'm guessing he also knew what was going to happen to him and he could have chosen easier path and just live the last days with his family or the closest ones but he didn't. He died gracefully in his faith and didn't broke 600 years old tradition of ones before him.
Just because no one has done it for six hundred years doesn't mean it's something that goes against the Church. Considering Pope Benedict XVI is the head of the Church, surrounded by just about every top expert in canon law (of which he is also one), I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing.
Really off topic here, but isn't it about time we stop using Roman numerals for good?
Maybe. At least it makes some sense here since it's the Roman Catholic Church, after all. Super Bowl, you have no excuse.
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On February 12 2013 05:37 IceCube wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 05:26 farvacola wrote:On February 12 2013 05:25 IceCube wrote:
For me his move is a sign of weakness. Any leader Christian or not after abandoning his post is found either weak or not worthy at the first place.
I'm a Christian and I do believe in God and this is my honest opinion of the matter at hand. That's the entire point.......Benedict considered himself too weak to maintain his position as head of the Church, therefore he stepped down. He is 85 ya know. You are right and that's the whole point, but what I meant was that he should set an example in his faith to all of us, the followers, in my eyes that's one of the main quests for a good leader. So now when we are in a hard spot (old, depressed, hungry...whatever, should we all just quit?)
Surely, when we are at the end of our lives and are all too aware that old age and perhaps even senility is settling in, instead of passing on our positions to the younger and capable we should just sit on our little thrones. Certainly any organization would benefit from this, for who needs the vitality of the next generation?
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On February 12 2013 05:55 IceCube wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 05:46 Tula wrote:On February 12 2013 05:37 IceCube wrote:On February 12 2013 05:26 farvacola wrote:On February 12 2013 05:25 IceCube wrote:
For me his move is a sign of weakness. Any leader Christian or not after abandoning his post is found either weak or not worthy at the first place.
I'm a Christian and I do believe in God and this is my honest opinion of the matter at hand. That's the entire point.......Benedict considered himself too weak to maintain his position as head of the Church, therefore he stepped down. He is 85 ya know. You are right and that's the whole point, but what I meant was that he should set an example in his faith to all of us, the followers, in my eyes that's one of the main quests for a good leader. So now when we are in a hard spot (old, depressed, hungry...whatever, should we all just quit?) Errrrrrr what? Seriously? We just (as in not 10 years ago) had a pope who literally could do nothing in the last 2 years of his reign and you want to go back to that?Frankly it is a sign of moral fiber to recognise that it is time to take a step back and let someone else lead. No other institution in the world expects their heads (not even a figurehead, but the person who is supposed to be in control) to serve on their deathbed. Yes one of his tasks is to set a good example for the believers of his faith. Where I disagree completely with what you have said is that he is "just" quitting. He served for 7 years at an age where almost everyone else just wants to sit back and spend time with their grandchildren. Frankly that must be enough. You said it yourself right there. He was dying and he still stood at the head of Christian Church, giving his last breath for what he stood for and showed true example of a great believer and faith in our Lord. I'm guessing he also knew what was going to happen to him and he could have chosen easier path and just live the last days with his family or the closest ones but he didn't. He died gracefully in his faith and didn't broke 600 years old tradition of ones before him.
He can still die a good Christian, and die believing the same way he lived his whole life. The problem is that as an invalid he should have (and did) relinquished that power to someone who he feels, or the Cardinals feel since they're voting for the new Pope, a better candidate to lead, reform, and maintain the integrity of the Catholic Church.
John Paul II should have realized when enough was enough and given up his mantle to Benedict or someone else. He would be taking the easier path but he would also be taking the more responsible path because he would know he is no longer fit for the taxing duties of the papacy.
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EPT
