EPTIs the USA heading towards "Big Brother" Govt? - Page 11
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TigerKarl
1757 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 06 2013 17:20 TheToaster wrote: I can't believe the amount of tin foil hat wearers there are in this thread, it just blows my mind. Some of you are referring to the U.S. military like some sort of clone army from Star Wars, only capable of executing commands from authority. I know several people that are enlisted, and they know exactly why they fight. This is still 2013, and the military won't even come close to involving themselves with domestic conflict on a large scale. As far as the "surveillance state" argument, I'm not even sure what the massive amounts of data being collected by the government is even supposed to suggest. Okay, so they might have billions of personal e-mails stored up. It's not like the government has the time and resources available to actually make use of that data individually. That would require way more resources and employees than what our pathetically underemployed government has. At best, this is just another pathetic attempt by the government to try and keep up pace with the rapidly expanding world of the internet. In general, the U.S. government has a pathetic internal infrastructure that can be no threat to it's own citizens. Internationally, on the other hand, I have no doubt the defense department has several skeletons in their closet that they aren't about to make public. But then again, we ARE the world's only remaining super power, so that's to be expected. They fight for freedom ? I agree with you in a way, as most military person I crossed in my little life were pretty decent men, but you cannot deny the fact that they - like citizens - very weak to suggestion and propagande. Just look back at the event that preceded the Iraq invasion, and the lie coming from high official such as Colin Powell. The fact is, you can establish a totalitarian state and make sure your population back you up with propaganda and lies. | ||
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
On February 06 2013 17:28 KwarK wrote: An argument that says it's okay to give the government the theoretical ability to intrude into our personal life because they lack the logistical ability to do it seems startlingly shortsighted given technological and computing advances. Surely it's better to say "stop reading our emails" than "sure, you can read our emails, but you'll need to invent a way of sorting them to actually get anywhere". Which they are already doing, if not already completed. The NSA, according to the whistleblower is a project meant to filter through all the data, providing cross-agency data extrapolation. http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/ The people who believe every conspiracy are just as ridiculous and stupid as people who discredit every conspiracy. Then again calling everyone a tin-foil hat makes you look cool ^_^ | ||
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LF[Media]
United States58 Posts
It was in the newspapers, but by and large it has been on the hush hush, and any questions or publicity drawn is ignored and swept under the rug; the old "if we pretend we aren't doing it, people will lose interest and eventually accept it". Disgusting, IMHO. Read this if you are skeptical: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57459152/police-call-license-plate-scanners-critical-but-do-they-violate-your-privacy/ And the large majority of these license plate scanners are not on police patrol cars, but permanent fixtures on highways and roads, like speed cameras. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5276 Posts
On February 05 2013 19:40 r.Evo wrote: The very nature of any system is self-preservance. Any system (or group, or individual) will try to stay alive as much as possible and, in most cases, try to make itself more stable and stronger in the future. That usually implies making real (or perceived) enemies of said system weaker, it implies gaining more power and control over things it doesn't have power or control over currently. Any collective emotion can be used as a mechanism of control, it's just that things like fear, anger or hatred are more easily directable than e.g. love or joy. Should probably ask historians as to how this usually ends up. =P tl;dr: Machiavellis "The Prince" makes understanding some of those politics mentioned in the OP much easier to understand. you can't just look at a system, analyze it, figure out how it works and then assume that's the only way it could work. it doesn't account for environmental feedbacks/evolution. vague questons vague answers i guess but i still believe that control via censorship, fear, deceit shouldn't/can't work in this day n' age. it can advance as far as people let it thow (lazines, passiveness and an overall not giving a fuck work for it). | ||
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scFoX
France454 Posts
On February 06 2013 18:25 sekritzzz wrote: Which they are already doing, if not already completed. The NSA, according to the whistleblower is a project meant to filter through all the data, providing cross-agency data extrapolation. http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/ The people who believe every conspiracy are just as ridiculous and stupid as people who discredit every conspiracy. Then again calling everyone a tin-foil hat makes you look cool ^_^ The NSA have been monitoring European communications for years and for some reason many Americans are fine with it. Playing Devil's advocate, what would be the difference if the USA treats its citizens the same as they treat their allies (and enemies)? In my opinion, this is a huge breach of privacy and individual liberties, but it hardly qualifies as totalitarianism. This also has little to do with the "small" or "big" state controversy, as I see it, since the use of such methods should be against international law. Not that we can do anything about it. | ||
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LF[Media]
United States58 Posts
"The data are also funneled to Maryland's Intelligence Center, which connects and monitors 367 license plate readers around the state. Assistant U.S. Attorney Harvey Eisenberg oversees the network." This is not even close to being constitutional. Not that anyone seems to care about the constitution in this country anymore. "Tax departments use them as well. Arlington, Va. relies on scanners to locate the cars of delinquent taxpayers. " Really? So it's admittedly not just used for dangerous criminals, but for something as benign as being late or delinquent on your taxes? This is how it starts; use dangerous crimes to justify something, then slowly spread it into more benign crimes, until it is used as a simple cash collector. Read more about the USA's license plate scanners: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57459152/police-call-license-plate-scanners-critical-but-do-they-violate-your-privacy/ | ||
KwarK
United States41959 Posts
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 06 2013 18:54 KwarK wrote: Do you really have a right to privacy in the street? That seems an odd thing to contest. lol ? Don't you have the freedom to go where ever you want ? What is odd to justify is why following and monitoring everyone in the street. | ||
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achan1058
1091 Posts
On February 06 2013 18:44 LF[Media] wrote: From the article: "The data are also funneled to Maryland's Intelligence Center, which connects and monitors 367 license plate readers around the state. Assistant U.S. Attorney Harvey Eisenberg oversees the network." This is not even close to being constitutional. Not that anyone seems to care about the constitution in this country anymore. "Tax departments use them as well. Arlington, Va. relies on scanners to locate the cars of delinquent taxpayers. " Really? So it's admittedly not just used for dangerous criminals, but for something as benign as being late or delinquent on your taxes? This is how it starts; use dangerous crimes to justify something, then slowly spread it into more benign crimes, until it is used as a simple cash collector. Read more about the USA's license plate scanners: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57459152/police-call-license-plate-scanners-critical-but-do-they-violate-your-privacy/ At least it's not red light cameras. | ||
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Vortun
42 Posts
That's funny. "Become" would point at the future. | ||
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DERPDERP
Kyrgyzstan189 Posts
On February 06 2013 19:08 Vortun wrote: Become? That's funny. "Become" would point at the future. this times 9000 | ||
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Supert0fu
United States499 Posts
How are Americans not free right now ? | ||
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StickyFlower
Sweden68 Posts
The ends of power is to enrich the private sector + Show Spoiler + They wage war, not to free people or make the world more safe, but to make money for private companies (read:Halliburton) The corruption is ridiculously high + Show Spoiler + How else can you explain why USA's "professionals" always have a different view of that of the rest of the world? The limitation of Pluralism pretty damn high aswell + Show Spoiler + Little rights for gaymovements and other religious believes that are not Christian. The Electoral College is undemocratic + Show Spoiler + It gives monopoly to 2 parties making it impossible for any other party to challenge. The majority doesnt always pick the President. The Elected people who are supposed to run the state are highly ignorant, and doesnt believe in Science. + Show Spoiler + Science is fact and its true whether or not you believe in it. | ||
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SpeaKEaSY
United States1070 Posts
On February 06 2013 17:20 TheToaster wrote: In general, the U.S. government has a pathetic internal infrastructure that can be no threat to it's own citizens. Tell that to the US citizens that were assassinated without being given due process of the law. | ||
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Supert0fu
United States499 Posts
On February 06 2013 20:39 StickyFlower wrote: Dont be silly, USA is already a totalitarian state. They reached that state when George W. Bush took office. The ends of power is to enrich the private sector + Show Spoiler + They wage war, not to free people or make the world more safe, but to make money for private companies (read:Halliburton) The corruption is ridiculously high + Show Spoiler + How else can you explain why USA's "professionals" always have a different view of that of the rest of the world? The limitation of Pluralism pretty damn high aswell + Show Spoiler + Little rights for gaymovements and other religious believes that are not Christian. The Electoral College is undemocratic + Show Spoiler + It gives monopoly to 2 parties making it impossible for any other party to challenge. The majority doesnt always pick the President. The Elected people who are supposed to run the state are highly ignorant, and doesnt believe in Science. + Show Spoiler + Science is fact and its true whether or not you believe in it. Spoken like someone who hasn't been to America. You provide no evidence to back up any of these points. You say the electoral college is undemocratic, but Americans still choose their leaders to represent them. Just because Americas democracy isn't the same as European democracies does not mean that America isn't democratic. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1595 Posts
On February 06 2013 20:39 StickyFlower wrote: Dont be silly, USA is already a totalitarian state. They reached that state when George W. Bush took office. The ends of power is to enrich the private sector + Show Spoiler + They wage war, not to free people or make the world more safe, but to make money for private companies (read:Halliburton) The corruption is ridiculously high + Show Spoiler + How else can you explain why USA's "professionals" always have a different view of that of the rest of the world? The limitation of Pluralism pretty damn high aswell + Show Spoiler + Little rights for gaymovements and other religious believes that are not Christian. The Electoral College is undemocratic + Show Spoiler + It gives monopoly to 2 parties making it impossible for any other party to challenge. The majority doesnt always pick the President. The Elected people who are supposed to run the state are highly ignorant, and doesnt believe in Science. + Show Spoiler + Science is fact and its true whether or not you believe in it. I don't know where you get your facts..... Sure, Bush waged a war for personal reasons as well as to help out Halliburton. Iraq and Afghanistan are more safe though despite that not being our reason for going there. You don't really explain the second spoiler, but yes, our politicians are corrupt. Their views are irreverent to the law making process as it takes way more than 1 individual to pass a law. They are corrupt because they steal money left and right from the people, and waste their time in office getting paid to do nothing except line their pockets with even more money. There is no limit in the rights for a gay movement sorry. Just recently several states passed gay marriage laws. The government (federal) continues to do nothing about it because they support gay rights. And the "movement" is not being hindered. The Electoral College has nothing to do with a 2 party system. And to my knowledge only 1 president won the EC without winning the popular vote as well. Our elected officials almost all believe in science lol. They might be dumb as shit, but they're not out there contesting science. I don't know where you got your information, and yes I think our government and the state of our country is quite shitty right now, but not for the reasons you stated. In fact your reasons are almost all completely false. I don't know who is spoon feeding you this, but you might do well with some googling on the US. On February 06 2013 20:43 SpeaKEaSY wrote: Tell that to the US citizens that were assassinated without being given due process of the law. Sad the 16 year old kid died (unless ofc he was actually an enemy combatant) Sad potentially another innocent was killed in the strike. Don't give a fuck that the US thought a bomb maker was over seas and tried to blow him up. | ||
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Kalingingsong
Canada633 Posts
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SpeaKEaSY
United States1070 Posts
On February 06 2013 20:53 NoobSkills wrote: Sad the 16 year old kid died (unless ofc he was actually an enemy combatant) Sad potentially another innocent was killed in the strike. Don't give a fuck that the US thought a bomb maker was over seas and tried to blow him up. So you don't believe that American citizens have the right to a fair trial before a jury? That it's fine to assume someone is guilty and then bomb the shit out of them? | ||
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Severedevil
United States4830 Posts
On February 06 2013 18:54 KwarK wrote: Do you really have a right to privacy in the street? That seems an odd thing to contest. Of course you don't have a right to privacy in the street. However, I'd suggest there's a difference between watching locations with recording devices, and cross-comparing many different recording devices to follow a person throughout their day. | ||
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