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Deleuze
United Kingdom2102 Posts
On December 23 2012 17:49 Ghostcom wrote: Academia and Medicine does not have a high barrier of entry? What? I am really interested in hearing your definition of "high barrier" here. I think he meant, 'academia, medicine, large capital' were examples of 'high barrier of entry.' | ||
p4NDemik
United States13896 Posts
On December 23 2012 18:18 Ghostcom wrote: Ooooooh, now I get it - sorry, I thought the parenthesis was meant to be the examples. But I think it is because you look at the barrier the wrong way. Essentially you claim it to be society's fault that the big money jobs in the finance sector is favoring extroverts, even though from a purely knowledge standpoint the introverts are better (a notion I do not agree with, but let us leave that for now) - right? I think where your argumentation falls short is that you fail to recognize that talking with people is a skill, not only a preference, just like academia is a skill and not only a preference (again, accepting the definitions made by MBTI, the OP, and Susan Cain). Thus the barrier in the financial sector includes interpersonal skills to a much higher degree than academia. If you want to even the playingfield in the one area you should also do it in the other, i.e. you should rework the grading system (another social construct) to take into account the "handicaps" extroverts face in their lessened interest in academia (again, by the definition of the OP and Susan Cain). Susan Cain didn't say anything about extroverts having lessened interest in academia (at least not in her TED presentation). She did say studies support the hypothesis that introverts receive better grades. She made no presumptions as to why that is the case. Indeed, that is the other side of the coin though. The educational system is a tool for teaching kids both in terms of subject matter and social skills. Socially we encourage extroverted traits, and many teachers may see them as necessary to a healthy classroom environment. At the same time the methods for grading performance (in the U.S.) greatly favor standardized tests, quizzes, exams, homework, etc. All of which fall plainly on the introverted student's side of the court. | ||
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fluidin
Singapore1084 Posts
On December 23 2012 18:18 Ghostcom wrote: Ooooooh, now I get it - sorry, I thought the parenthesis was meant to be the examples. But I think it is because you look at the barrier the wrong way. Essentially you claim it to be society's fault that the big money jobs in the finance sector is favoring extroverts, even though from a purely knowledge standpoint the introverts are better (a notion I do not agree with, but let us leave that for now) - right? I think where your argumentation falls short is that you fail to recognize that talking with people is a skill, not only a preference, just like academia is a skill and not only a preference (again, accepting the definitions made by MBTI, the OP, and Susan Cain). Thus the barrier in the financial sector includes interpersonal skills to a much higher degree than academia. If you want to even the playingfield in the one area you should also do it in the other, i.e. you should rework the grading system (another social construct) to take into account the "handicaps" extroverts face in their lessened interest in academia (again, by the definition of the OP and Susan Cain). Hmmm, you have a point there, however I want to point out certain cases where, say, the most popular and successful fund managers aren't the ones that actually manage wealth the best. I'm not trying to compare introverts and extroverts as separate groups in this case, and also definitely not implying that introverts make better employees, but that certain extroversion traits carry high, and IMO disproportionate amounts of reward. This is definitely a by-product of how modern society works, and not a hard-skill like academia where it's easier to judge their true capability. I mean, if, say, technology has progressed to the point where financial information can be immediate and practically 100% accurate using the strong-form market hypothesis, you could see charismatic fund managers and private bankers having less success as compared to now, and consistent managers that post better performance and socialise less have more success. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
I love solitude most of the time, but I hate that I love it. I'm glad that many of you are at peace with your nature, that's obviously more healthy, but I'm currently in the middle of the collapse of a 7-year relationship which was good for at least 5 of those years and I don't know what to do. She was outgoing but respected my need for alone time, and we spent a good bit of time together, enough for me, and enough for her (or so we thought)... I'll skip the rest of the relationship stuff although it ties in closely with what I'm going to say - basically I want to go out but when I actually am I'm uncomfortable, and while I can enjoy it, it ends up being boring as hell a lot of the time, unless there are some interesting people around. The forever alone feel is settling in now. Edit: Thinking about, seems like my overinflated ego just got completely dismantled.  fack. | ||
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CtrLZerG
United States104 Posts
This is how I personally view it: It helps me understand another person's perspective just a little bit better, and helps me develop communication skills with people who are polar opposites to me... if you don't share that opinion, it doesn't make it alright to completely demean my views and look down upon me, humiliating my views in front of an audience. That's the social equivalent to bullying. Let me give you all the definition of an online bully: A person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are perceived weaker. The ego maniacs in this thread don't need to put so many people down. It takes away productivity. And to those who WILL bring this up, just because you counter-argue someone's opinion, doesn't make it a debate. A debate does more than expose doubt, it makes the overall post more productive. Most people arguing over these points brought out aren't adding anything of value to the thread, they are only invalidating others. Also, thank you p4NDemik for pointing out that this isn't a thread built for the sake of dividing people... it's to improve the self-esteem of those who think their being an introvert is a disadvantage... Life is about doing the best with what you have. That's what makes the difference between the best and worst of society, not necessarily their being born with the traits that they have... That, to me, is the equivalent of destiny, which takes free will out of the picture all together. We all have free will, don't we? Why can't we respect other's opinions and personal integrity? | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On December 24 2012 09:30 CtrLZerG wrote: Why can't we respect other's opinions and personal integrity? Because it's the internet, and that's fucking boring. (zzzzzzzzz.) | ||
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KiF1rE
United States964 Posts
On December 24 2012 09:30 CtrLZerG wrote: Also, thank you p4NDemik for pointing out that this isn't a thread built for the sake of dividing people... it's to improve the self-esteem of those who think their being an introvert is a disadvantage... Life is about doing the best with what you have. Biggest issue I have, Is that it is a massive disadvantage for me. I cannot for the life of me turn it into anything but that. Doing the best with what I have means, Im a lifeless broken failure that can barely afford food. Being an extreme introvert means ill probably never figure out how to be a decent streamer to gain popularity or anything else to actually go pro in SC2(short of figuring out how to win a major). Or even have the social skills to acquire practice partners.(which would also help me win a major tournament) or even find a job outside of or within esports. | ||
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pa_si
4 Posts
I've learned to live with it but I also learned that you need to understand that you are somewhat "different" otherwise you can run into highly disappointing relashionships with non "introverted" persons. Thank you for the post and for the material, really appreciated !! | ||
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CtrLZerG
United States104 Posts
On December 27 2012 08:56 KiF1rE wrote: Biggest issue I have, Is that it is a massive disadvantage for me. I cannot for the life of me turn it into anything but that. Doing the best with what I have means, Im a lifeless broken failure that can barely afford food. Being an extreme introvert means ill probably never figure out how to be a decent streamer to gain popularity or anything else to actually go pro in SC2(short of figuring out how to win a major). Or even have the social skills to acquire practice partners.(which would also help me win a major tournament) or even find a job outside of or within esports. There are opportunities available for people who struggle in social situations... I know it's a huge challenge, but don't give up! It takes time, but it's worth the challenge... Maybe I was a little insensitive saying that life is about doing the best with what you have. I know a lot of people aren't given nearly as many chances or opportunities in life as others... Nobody has the same circumstances, and I'm sorry for making you feel bad, I really didn't mean too... I was just caught in the moment, noticed a lot of people were ragging on the thread and giving barrin a hard time, and I was pretty pissed off about it, because this is a thread to help people feel better about themselves... One of the things that I really appreciate about teamliquid is, despite the mass of online trolls, most teamliquid posters are willing to help if you reach out. Why not try making a thread, and outline some basic information that will help others see the challenges you're facing... I'm sure there are those willing to help you achieve your dream, as long as you keep trying! I'm sure there are some who will be able to relate to your situation, and have similar interests as you, as well... A relationship is most easily built off common ground, so I can understand it being weird talking to someone who only has an interest in cars and hunting and stuff like that... especially if they keep going on and on when you're bored out of your mind..! On top of that, if you try pursuing a relationship with someone who only has an interest in things you aren't interested in, the foundation your building on is already fragmented.. any stress, and the foundation crumbles... It's tough, because there aren't a lot of people in the world who are naturally inclined to talk about concepts or deeper things... and a lot of times if they do, they have an arrogant way of pointing out the flaws in your ideas, which only makes it harder to communicate with them, and harder to open up to them... At least, that's where MY challenge is... That's why I've struggled to communicate with people in the past. It took me a long time to find a few people who I could really rely on, but when I did, they helped me more than I could possibly express. So don't give up, nothing good comes out of dismissing yourself as a failure. Express your ideas! When you do, it's like you are building your endurance. The more you do it, the easier it gets, and the longer you can endure. Think of runners. Could you imagine if they never trained? They wouldn't be very successful. A lot of times, runners run marathons, not for the sake of getting first place, but to see what they are capable of, because they enjoy it! They want to FINISH the race. They run because they love to run. You don't need to be the most successful person in the world, you dont need to be first. Think of yourself as a work in progress. You just have to love what you do, finish the race for the sake of finishing it, and be proud of your achievements! Just try growing a little more every day, and try to see where you can improve. Don't give up! Life isn't over for you yet, so keep trying man! Opportunities will naturally come and go as you grow... so just keep trying! | ||
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Cubu
1171 Posts
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CtrLZerG
United States104 Posts
On December 28 2012 09:52 Cubu wrote: There is a huge misconception about introverts in this thread. People here attribute their shortcomings in social settings to being an introvert. Being introverted is not the reason for your problems. If you are struggling in social situations, to the extent where it becomes a massive disadvantage, then you might be having something like social anxiety or some other psychological disorder. Yea, you're right. I try to avoid making assumptions, but I couldn't help but think that, also. Social anxiety disorder is fairly common, even among extroverts... Introversion, in itself, isn't a disadvantage. The thing is, many people who are introverted may also develop social anxiety disorder if they prefer to avoid social contact on a regular basis... Then, when they do make social interactions, its uncomfortable. It would be similar to someone not exercising on a regular basis and deciding to suddenly go run a marathon. It would be super uncomfortable for that person, and they probably wouldnt even cross the finish line. Someone who avoids 'exercising' their social abilities can develop anxiety when put in social situations, which are unavoidable to a certain extent, regardless of introversion and extroversion. Humans being naturally social means in order to be healthy, we should have a healthy dose of social interactions on a regular basis, otherwise we are working contrary to how we're designed, and it wont go well for us. In other words, I agree with everything you just said :D | ||
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BrTarolg
United Kingdom3574 Posts
In some ways, i'm quite lucky, but in other ways i worked hard to get what i wanted. My job consists of sitting at my desk doing pretty much whatever the hell i want, as long as i make money nobody cares. Nobody can affect how much money i make except for myself, and i don't have to talk to anyone all day long My personality and way of thinking is a big boon in the trading industry i think. It lets you think way more independently (which i feel is very important), and By all means i dont hate social interaction, i love it. But i hate it the vast majority of the time with most people, and i love it sometimes with a few people i like to hang out with. Somehow when people discover this, they think this is an excuse to label me as a "bad person" or something. | ||
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KiF1rE
United States964 Posts
On December 28 2012 09:24 CtrLZerG wrote: There are opportunities available for people who struggle in social situations... I know it's a huge challenge, but don't give up! It takes time, but it's worth the challenge... Maybe I was a little insensitive saying that life is about doing the best with what you have. I know a lot of people aren't given nearly as many chances or opportunities in life as others... Nobody has the same circumstances, and I'm sorry for making you feel bad, I really didn't mean too... I was just caught in the moment, noticed a lot of people were ragging on the thread and giving barrin a hard time, and I was pretty pissed off about it, because this is a thread to help people feel better about themselves... One of the things that I really appreciate about teamliquid is, despite the mass of online trolls, most teamliquid posters are willing to help if you reach out. Why not try making a thread, and outline some basic information that will help others see the challenges you're facing... I'm sure there are those willing to help you achieve your dream, as long as you keep trying! I'm sure there are some who will be able to relate to your situation, and have similar interests as you, as well... A relationship is most easily built off common ground, so I can understand it being weird talking to someone who only has an interest in cars and hunting and stuff like that... especially if they keep going on and on when you're bored out of your mind..! On top of that, if you try pursuing a relationship with someone who only has an interest in things you aren't interested in, the foundation your building on is already fragmented.. any stress, and the foundation crumbles... It's tough, because there aren't a lot of people in the world who are naturally inclined to talk about concepts or deeper things... and a lot of times if they do, they have an arrogant way of pointing out the flaws in your ideas, which only makes it harder to communicate with them, and harder to open up to them... At least, that's where MY challenge is... That's why I've struggled to communicate with people in the past. It took me a long time to find a few people who I could really rely on, but when I did, they helped me more than I could possibly express. So don't give up, nothing good comes out of dismissing yourself as a failure. Express your ideas! When you do, it's like you are building your endurance. The more you do it, the easier it gets, and the longer you can endure. Think of runners. Could you imagine if they never trained? They wouldn't be very successful. A lot of times, runners run marathons, not for the sake of getting first place, but to see what they are capable of, because they enjoy it! They want to FINISH the race. They run because they love to run. You don't need to be the most successful person in the world, you dont need to be first. Think of yourself as a work in progress. You just have to love what you do, finish the race for the sake of finishing it, and be proud of your achievements! Just try growing a little more every day, and try to see where you can improve. Don't give up! Life isn't over for you yet, so keep trying man! Opportunities will naturally come and go as you grow... so just keep trying! You didnt make me feel bad, its that statement that has been running around my head along time before you said it. The thing is I just have no idea what to do with it. I know it takes time to achieve dreams and goals, But I make very little progress and my achievements that I used to take alot of pride in, No longer provide any pride. Brief TL:DR about my esports career, Ive been competing for almost 20 years now. Won hundreds of smaller tournaments, a bunch of a local lans, Placed well in national events. Won 2 awkward IEM events. I took pride in those. However, I cannot get myself out there and make connections with people for any of that to matter in the slightest, That is the part where when people say it takes time annoys me, Because all of that in the end doesn't matter, And I started to believe that and that's where I lost my pride in those achievements. That's why I say I have to win something major in SC2, Doing really well, knocking out big names but never qualifying for anything major and becoming depressed and just falling off the face of the sc2 scene that I was irrelevant in already, While players worse than me have success at every opportunity, As in the end it doesnt matter how much small stuff I win, Unless I acquire contacts and become more sociable it doesn't matter that I'm almost facing 3.5k winnings in SC2, because all of the stuff was small and not in the public eye, Meaning even the smallest of unsponsored teams reject me, and even those interviews in themselves feel awkward. This is why I say im a failure in SC2 and also life in similar situations as my life outside of esports is similar. As it just feels like nothing I accomplish matters, and it comes down to the social element in everything. On December 28 2012 11:48 CtrLZerG wrote: Yea, you're right. I try to avoid making assumptions, but I couldn't help but think that, also. Social anxiety disorder is fairly common, even among extroverts... Introversion, in itself, isn't a disadvantage. The thing is, many people who are introverted may also develop social anxiety disorder if they prefer to avoid social contact on a regular basis... Then, when they do make social interactions, its uncomfortable. It would be similar to someone not exercising on a regular basis and deciding to suddenly go run a marathon. It would be super uncomfortable for that person, and they probably wouldnt even cross the finish line. Someone who avoids 'exercising' their social abilities can develop anxiety when put in social situations, which are unavoidable to a certain extent, regardless of introversion and extroversion. Humans being naturally social means in order to be healthy, we should have a healthy dose of social interactions on a regular basis, otherwise we are working contrary to how we're designed, and it wont go well for us. In other words, I agree with everything you just said :D I feel more like an extreme introvert, I feel, I really don't have social anxiety, as I have no problem with social situations and dont care what others think, However in turn I also do care what others think(paradox I know), As I tend to come off rude or very awkward, And that's why the social situation goes down hill, Because I only care what they think in a sense of "I need to impress this person to get a job" Other than that I don't care.... But I do have a massive lack of social experience due to the fact that I missed a lot of it growing up due to bullying and other stuff.... Which in turn comes full circle on why up above I have been gaming for so long. however where I live just sucks and being an introvert, have trouble finding help to get that experience. Basically I feel its kind of bad tag team combo that has ruined me. While I do love your example about marathons, I do love "running" that race for the sake of running. But the pressure that I have to do not only well but really really well has crippled that. As I feel in order to make the best of what I got, I cant fail in any other aspect in order to make up for it, to find success. And success is really a bad word to describe this as success implies alot of other things, Surviving as a person is a better term. | ||
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Thalandros
Netherlands1151 Posts
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xM(Z
Romania5296 Posts
On December 28 2012 11:48 CtrLZerG wrote: ... Humans being naturally social means in order to be healthy, we should have a healthy dose of social interactions on a regular basis, otherwise we are working contrary to how we're designed, and it wont go well for us. In other words, I agree with everything you just said :D how did you figured that? and what does "naturally social" mean? 'cause there is a difference between being able to communicate with other people and being forced (more or less) to communicate at a certain level just for the sake of being accepted and valued in todays social environments. | ||
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CtrLZerG
United States104 Posts
On December 28 2012 12:27 KiF1rE wrote: I feel more like an extreme introvert, I feel, I really don't have social anxiety, as I have no problem with social situations and dont care what others think, However in turn I also do care what others think(paradox I know), As I tend to come off rude or very awkward, And that's why the social situation goes down hill, Because I only care what they think in a sense of "I need to impress this person to get a job" Other than that I don't care.... But I do have a massive lack of social experience due to the fact that I missed a lot of it growing up due to bullying and other stuff.... Which in turn comes full circle on why up above I have been gaming for so long. however where I live just sucks and being an introvert, have trouble finding help to get that experience. Basically I feel its kind of bad tag team combo that has ruined me. While I do love your example about marathons, I do love "running" that race for the sake of running. But the pressure that I have to do not only well but really really well has crippled that. As I feel in order to make the best of what I got, I cant fail in any other aspect in order to make up for it, to find success. And success is really a bad word to describe this as success implies alot of other things, Surviving as a person is a better term. Hmmm... Yea, I can see where that would be really tough to deal with man.. I feel for you. Bullying is a really debilitating thing. Must be really hard to get past that.... Recently, my friend got angry at me because I essentially told him he needed to be just a little more patient. I was a little upset at first because I didn't understand why he got angry at me... So I thought about it a little more and realized he had already been really patient. what made him frustrated was that he lost hope in the situation while he was being patient, and was on the verge of just giving up. He was angry because he didn't want to hear he needed more patience. I can see how that must be frustrating for you... I don't know your whole story, and so I won't put myself in a position to give you an answer, because it will end up being shallow, because it will only be from my own perspective... At the same time, I really hope you can keep trying. I hate seeing people give up on their dreams... And I know that a big reason people do give up is that they are just tired of being disappointed in themselves. That feeling of dissapointment is something I can relate too, even if I can't relate to your personal situation. Being able to express those feelings to a close friend, face to face, was so valuable to me. It's something that can be really tough to do, though. when I was able to find a friend in somebody and tell him exactly how i felt, he actually saved my life. I know the value of a friend when your life goes to hell. And it really is hell, when you have nothing in your head but your own perceived embarrassment. It's the most frustrating thing in the world. And the worst part is, everybody cares, and everybody understands in there own head, but they really don't get it. They say "I know, I know, " yet they don't listen to what it is you have to say. You just need that one person who listens. It's hard to find that one person. Anyways, sorry for rambling. I do this sometimes. This might sound strange, but what you said really moved me... It effected me in a really profound way. Since you've started posting, I've been thinking about everything you said. Hang in there man... Also, I'd love to watch you stream, too, if you ever choose to.. Just send me a link Take care! | ||
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gugarutz
Austria110 Posts
had to lol when i saw the pictures since i use the meditating monk as my desktop image for some time now ^^ | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4782 Posts
On December 28 2012 09:52 Cubu wrote: There is a huge misconception about introverts in this thread. People here attribute their shortcomings in social settings to being an introvert. Being introverted is not the reason for your problems. If you are struggling in social situations, to the extent where it becomes a massive disadvantage, then you might be having something like social anxiety or some other psychological disorder. I would like to know what your merits are since you are so keen at diagnosing people with psychological disorders? | ||
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fooby
United States52 Posts
Took whatever test that was a while ago but never got a real good description of what the results meant. Thanks for the thread, well put together and easy to skim through. I wanted to share this with someone else before it "faded away" and felt some sort of a reply was necessary. | ||
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Rimstalker
Germany734 Posts
On December 27 2012 08:56 KiF1rE wrote: Just wanted to say this is an awesome thread, Though im still seeking on how to find success in this world... People say things like a programming job are great for introverts, but I cant stand job interviews and getting through them, As they are typically hard and filled with alot of small talk that not only I struggle with, But have no interest in. Even more awkward when they are just an extremely talkative person that is just there for hiring and knows absolutely nothing about the job im applying for... obviously since i frequent TL I like starcraft and an avid SC player trying to go pro, I have no interest in cars,sports or hunting which always gets brought up in michigan =/ So when someone talks about the big game yesterday I immediately think of pro league or something and not whatever they were talking about lol. First of all: There are niche jobs, you just have to find them. Not long ago, I was reading about a company in Denmark (?) that specializes in jobs for people with (severe) autism. And 2ndly: The jobs where they have the nice, chatty lady talk to you are generally the jobs you don't want. Become really good at something, hunt down small companies in that field and send them initiative job applications. Or you can even start at joining some local tech 'clubs'. 'My' company for example actively sends its employees to hacker meetups or even sponsors such events to find local talent Most startups will have a career section on their homepage | ||
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