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Try and keep it on the political/societal/cultural end of the discussion. This deals not only with gay rights but also the larger issue of looking at the interaction of religious groups within secular society, their rights and their influence, in contrast with the privileges of other groups. Which religion, if any, is right is irrelevant and arguments of that nature will be moderated. |
On December 22 2012 05:36 sam!zdat wrote:
I don't think that the belief "Black people are an inferior race" is a valid religious belief
Lol?
You think you can dictate what is and is not a valid religious belief?
All religious beliefs are valid, or none of them are.
On December 22 2012 07:07 Maenander wrote:
On another note should same-sex couples be allowed in Mixed Badminton tournaments?
I am neither religious nor against same-sex marriage, but I just don't see how one can have a right to be married by a certain religious organization. Religious marriages should just be irrelevant from the perspective of the state. Of course the Anglican church is a special and very different case.
If we want to force state-independent churches to allow same-sex marriages we should do so by public pressure and not by creating laws in my opinion.
Your comment brings up two points which have already been thoroughly discussed, so please address them directly.
First of all, the definition of marriage.
A mixed badminton tournament is, by definition, one male and one female.
Are you trying to say you think marriage is also so defined?
Secondly, are you are saying religious organisations shouldn't be subject to the same anti-discrimination laws as non-religious organisations and if so, why?
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On December 20 2012 04:33 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 04:08 Gendi2545 wrote:On December 20 2012 02:36 Klondikebar wrote:On December 20 2012 02:30 Gendi2545 wrote:On December 19 2012 03:14 KwarK wrote:On December 19 2012 03:03 Gendi2545 wrote:On December 17 2012 23:43 KwarK wrote:On December 16 2012 17:31 Gendi2545 wrote:
Only up to page 4 on this but I don't see why there's so much confusion on this matter. The (Protestant) church is based on the Bible, which regards the act of homosexuality as an abomination. I believe in the old testament the penalty for it was stoning to death, and according to the Bible Sodom and Gomorrah were nuked by God for this particular sin. Even in the new testament the Bible is entirely against the practice of homosexuality, the only difference is the theme is now mercy and the chance to repent (before death anyway) rather than immediate judgement.
Since the Bible is utterly against the practice of homosexuality, how on earth could a legitimate bible-based church be expected to marry homosexuals? Of course there are many "secular" pastors who only seek to please people and don't care about the Bible who will marry gays, but that proves nothing because they clearly aren't faithful to their own religion.
I'm all for freedom including freedom from discrimination, but trying to force bible-based churches to marry gays is nonsensical and I believe is trespassing on the rights of the people who want to peacefully follow their own religion. It is discrimination by practicing homosexuals against heterosexuals and homosexuals who want to follow the Bible.
There are multiple issues here but one of them is whether freedom of religion exists in terms of actions or if it is only for opinions in which case it is simply freedom of expression, the same right that protects political affiliations. It matters because that freedom does not make your actions, such as denying a service available to the public, free to discriminate in a legal sense. The BNP are allowed to believe Britain should be racially pure but they are not allowed to go further to the action of discriminatory policies. Here the issue is that if religious freedom is just a type of free expression then why should they be able to deny a service in a discriminatory way based on their convictions and if it is it's own special type of freedom, what is it and why does it exist in a secular society. Discrimination is required for the church to remain faithful to its beliefs. You would have to eradicate the (biblical) church to remove the discrimination. How is this fair to Christians? It's not like they're burning homosexuals at the stake. Also, church expenses are paid for by church members. They are tax-exempt, but they are not for-profit organizations (although some pastors are clearly out to fleece the flock). They should be allowed to decide their own policies. If a certain pastor refuses to marry homosexuals, they can go to a church which will marry homosexuals, or make their own religion. There’s no problem, unless people are so sensitive their lives will be ruined if they’re excluded from a group they don’t want to join. I would say that one group forcing its views onto another is far more unjust than one group excluding another from one of its traditional ceremonies. Just out of interest do you think mensa should be forced to accept people with low IQs? Should war veterans clubs be forced to allow anyone to join? And so on. As a society we come up with legitimate grounds to discriminate upon and illegitimate ones. Age, race, religion, gender (exemptions can apply here), sexuality (I think that's all of them) are the legally protected things which you can't discriminate upon. War veteran clubs can exclude a gay man for not being a war veteran but not for being gay, it's not that you're not allowed to discriminate, it's that you can't discriminate for one of the legally protected reasons. Churches charge to perform marriages, it's a commercial service available to the general public and should be treated as such. The current fee for a CofE church wedding is £322. Discrimination on the grounds of race is required for racists to remain faithful to their racist beliefs too. We dealt with that by saying they could still believe racist things but they could not act in a racist way, why can the church not do that regarding gays. I've still not seen a convincing argument for why religious beliefs should be treated any differently to other strongly held beliefs, there are animal rights activists who are far more zealous about that than most Christians, the only argument I see people use is "religion is different because it's religion (which is different)". Mensa is not legally required to accept them yet (I think) as IQ is not a protected characteristic and therefore they can discriminate based upon it. I can conceive of circumstances under which it would need to be protected but those are theoretical, in practice there is no present case for requiring mensa not discriminate on the grounds of IQ. I'm not so sure the church is actually discriminating against homosexuals. They are welcome to attend church services and activities, and to become Christians themselves. Marriage however, according to the church, is between a man and a woman, not a man and a brick or a man and a man. A man might legally get married to another man, but then it's not any marriage the Bible would recognize. Gays effectively gain nothing by these laws, while millions of Christians lose the right to legally practice their religion. As a society we come up with legitimate grounds to discriminate upon and illegitimate ones. Those laws look good at first glance, but now we've run into this issue. Basically these laws are being used to destroy the church, using government, so the occasional gay couple can get married. This despite the fact they can already get married, just not at every single church. Given that laws are made to serve humans and not vice-versa, and given that a large proportion of people have religious beliefs they would like protected, perhaps the courts should take a closer look at these laws and modify them if necessary. It could for example be argued that an employer discriminating against a homosexual causes actual harm, since jobs are scarce and money is needed to survive. A church refusing to marry a gay couple is no big deal, they can simply go to another church that does marry gay couples. If these laws are strictly enforced without thought they are going to result in a large number of people being oppressed so a few members of a smaller group won't potentially have their feelings hurt. Also just because laws are passed doesn't mean society as a whole agreed to them. They might have been pushed through by vocal special interest groups, I'm not sure if that is the case here. If you replaced "gay" with "interracial" throughout your post I feel like you'd have a hard time defending what you're saying. And yes, there was a time when the church thought interracial marriage was a sin as well so it's an appropriate substitution. That's not a valid point at all. Firstly, there are many churches with completely different views. For example the Catholic Church, Protestant Church and Jehovah's Witnesses are completely different, to the point that they consider each other heretical and damned to hell. I'm trying to represent the views of the mainstream Calvinist and Arminian Protestant Churches, which base their views solely on the Bible (in contrast to the other churches mentioned). Secondly, the Bible doesn't specifically forbid interracial marriage, and quite a few verses imply it is acceptable, so there's no reason for churches to oppose it. Homosexuality, on the other hand, the Bible has very harsh words for. Bible-based churches in more racist times might wrongly have condemned interracial marriage (not sure how many did), but there are no gray areas in gay marriage. Just to clarify, sola scriptura does not equate with literalist exegesis, meaning that while all Protestant denominations do indeed consider the Bible the final word on God's message, they all bring with them differing brands of interpretation. Using "bible-based" as a descriptor is misleading, in that there are many "bible-based" churches that preach individual, subjective biblical interpretation/exegesis. I find it odd you decided to name drop Calvinism and Arminianism, when neither has anything explicitly to do with biblical interpretation.
Thats true, and I was using Calvin/Arminian in the wrong context. I assumed most churches following those doctrines followed the traditional values of the Protestant Church. But I was specifically looking at the Bible's stance on homosexuality, which is very clear.
Edit: And the condemnation of other denominations is a fundamentalist idea that is losing ground amongst mainstream Protestant denominations.
Yes, because they're all turning apostate and don't mind a little heresy.
As for the Catholic Church it maintains that it has the right to put to death anyone who refuses to become a Catholic, the only reason it doesn't is because it doesn't currently have the power to do so.
It hasn't changed since the Reformation, where it killed over 8 million Protestants, it has only lost some of its power. And if you doubt the CC's commitment, just look at how Protestants are persecuted by the CC in Spain where it is dominant.
Edit: Additionally, to suggest that there is no grey area when it comes to old testament exegesis suggests to me that you have relatively little actual contact with mainstream, non-fundamentalist Christianity.
Again I was talking specifically about the Bible's view on homosexuality. As usual some people will argue the Bible tolerates homosexuality but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a gray area given the Bible's very clear condemnation of it.
Also I'm not a fundamentalist, I had a Methodist upbringing.
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United States44255 Posts
On December 22 2012 07:07 Maenander wrote:
On another note should same-sex couples be allowed in Mixed Badminton tournaments?
I am neither religious nor against same-sex marriage, but I just don't see how one can have a right to be married by a certain religious organization. Religious marriages should just be irrelevant from the perspective of the state. Of course the Anglican church is a special and very different case.
If we want to force state-independent churches to allow same-sex marriages we should do so by public pressure and not by creating laws in my opinion.
Of course not. Gay men aren't women, they just like dick as much as straight women. Entry to badminton tournaments isn't based upon how much you like dick.
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Whoa, first transgenders aren't considered mentally disordered anymore and now UK legalizes gay marriage!! The future is starting to look good for you bro!
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On December 22 2012 17:16 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 07:07 Maenander wrote:
On another note should same-sex couples be allowed in Mixed Badminton tournaments?
I am neither religious nor against same-sex marriage, but I just don't see how one can have a right to be married by a certain religious organization. Religious marriages should just be irrelevant from the perspective of the state. Of course the Anglican church is a special and very different case.
If we want to force state-independent churches to allow same-sex marriages we should do so by public pressure and not by creating laws in my opinion. Of course not. Gay men aren't women, they just like dick as much as straight women. Entry to badminton tournaments isn't based upon how much you like dick.
I would at this point like to mention that women are allowed to compete in the mens singles here in the States whilst the other is not allowed - obviously your chromosomes does not dictate it either, so what exactly DOES really dictate anything? People and society do. I would really urge everyone to stop looking for silly parallels, because they are still a social construct.
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United States44255 Posts
On December 22 2012 17:34 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 17:16 KwarK wrote:On December 22 2012 07:07 Maenander wrote:
On another note should same-sex couples be allowed in Mixed Badminton tournaments?
I am neither religious nor against same-sex marriage, but I just don't see how one can have a right to be married by a certain religious organization. Religious marriages should just be irrelevant from the perspective of the state. Of course the Anglican church is a special and very different case.
If we want to force state-independent churches to allow same-sex marriages we should do so by public pressure and not by creating laws in my opinion. Of course not. Gay men aren't women, they just like dick as much as straight women. Entry to badminton tournaments isn't based upon how much you like dick. I would at this point like to mention that women are allowed to compete in the mens singles here in the States whilst the other is not allowed - obviously your chromosomes does not dictate it either, so what exactly DOES really dictate anything? People and society do. I would really urge everyone to stop looking for silly parallels, because they are still a social construct.
Take that up with them?
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On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
First of all, the definition of marriage.
A mixed badminton tournament is, by definition, one male and one female.
Are you trying to say you think marriage is also so defined?
In my opinion there is no general definition of marriage, every religious sect should define marriage however it pleases. They can marry themselves to ants for all I care. It is the definition of marriages that are legally binding that we should worry about.
On December 22 2012 17:16 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 07:07 Maenander wrote:
On another note should same-sex couples be allowed in Mixed Badminton tournaments?
I am neither religious nor against same-sex marriage, but I just don't see how one can have a right to be married by a certain religious organization. Religious marriages should just be irrelevant from the perspective of the state. Of course the Anglican church is a special and very different case.
If we want to force state-independent churches to allow same-sex marriages we should do so by public pressure and not by creating laws in my opinion. Of course not. Gay men aren't women, they just like dick as much as straight women. Entry to badminton tournaments isn't based upon how much you like dick.
But it is based upon gender. Leave the "sexual"(a linguistic mess) aspect out of it and call it same-sex doubles and it is still a valid point.
On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
Secondly, are you are saying religious organisations shouldn't be subject to the same anti-discrimination laws as non-religious organisations and if so, why?
I think there should be a limit to how much the state interferes in private matters. Religion should be a private matter. As Kwark already pointed out the problems in the UK stem from the lack of separation of religion and state. If the state endorses a religion it also takes responsibility for its contents.
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On December 22 2012 17:49 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
First of all, the definition of marriage.
A mixed badminton tournament is, by definition, one male and one female.
Are you trying to say you think marriage is also so defined?
In my opinion there is no general definition of marriage, every religious sect should define marriage however it pleases. They can marry themselves to ants for all I care. It is the definition of marriages that are legally binding that we should worry about. Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 17:16 KwarK wrote:On December 22 2012 07:07 Maenander wrote:
On another note should same-sex couples be allowed in Mixed Badminton tournaments?
I am neither religious nor against same-sex marriage, but I just don't see how one can have a right to be married by a certain religious organization. Religious marriages should just be irrelevant from the perspective of the state. Of course the Anglican church is a special and very different case.
If we want to force state-independent churches to allow same-sex marriages we should do so by public pressure and not by creating laws in my opinion. Of course not. Gay men aren't women, they just like dick as much as straight women. Entry to badminton tournaments isn't based upon how much you like dick. But it is based upon gender. Leave the "sexual"(a linguistic mess) aspect out of it and call it same-sex doubles and it is still a valid point. Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
Secondly, are you are saying religious organisations shouldn't be subject to the same anti-discrimination laws as non-religious organisations and if so, why?
I think there should be a limit to how much the state interferes in private matters. Religion should be a private matter. As Kwark already pointed out the problems in the UK stem from the lack of separation of religion and state. If the state endorses a religion it also takes responsibility for its contents.
So why did you bring up mixed badminton doubles then? It makes no sense.
The church is offering a public service and charging for it, once they did that it no longer became a private matter. No one is telling the church what to believe or to teach to their followers.
You don't need to be a member of the church to get married there, nor even part of their religion. This is very far from a private matter.
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On December 22 2012 22:34 Reason wrote:
You don't need to be a member of the church to get married there, nor even part of their religion. This is very far from a private matter.
I see we are talking about different things. The catholic church doesn't even marry a couple, if one of the 2 persons is not baptized, at least not without special authorization.
Civil marriages and religious marriages are strictly separated in Germany, in fact churches were not allowed by law to marry a couple that was not married by a civil authority first until a few years ago.
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On December 22 2012 22:34 Reason wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 17:49 Maenander wrote:On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
First of all, the definition of marriage.
A mixed badminton tournament is, by definition, one male and one female.
Are you trying to say you think marriage is also so defined?
In my opinion there is no general definition of marriage, every religious sect should define marriage however it pleases. They can marry themselves to ants for all I care. It is the definition of marriages that are legally binding that we should worry about. On December 22 2012 17:16 KwarK wrote:On December 22 2012 07:07 Maenander wrote:
On another note should same-sex couples be allowed in Mixed Badminton tournaments?
I am neither religious nor against same-sex marriage, but I just don't see how one can have a right to be married by a certain religious organization. Religious marriages should just be irrelevant from the perspective of the state. Of course the Anglican church is a special and very different case.
If we want to force state-independent churches to allow same-sex marriages we should do so by public pressure and not by creating laws in my opinion. Of course not. Gay men aren't women, they just like dick as much as straight women. Entry to badminton tournaments isn't based upon how much you like dick. But it is based upon gender. Leave the "sexual"(a linguistic mess) aspect out of it and call it same-sex doubles and it is still a valid point. On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
Secondly, are you are saying religious organisations shouldn't be subject to the same anti-discrimination laws as non-religious organisations and if so, why?
I think there should be a limit to how much the state interferes in private matters. Religion should be a private matter. As Kwark already pointed out the problems in the UK stem from the lack of separation of religion and state. If the state endorses a religion it also takes responsibility for its contents. So why did you bring up mixed badminton doubles then? It makes no sense. The church is offering a public service and charging for it, once they did that it no longer became a private matter. No one is telling the church what to believe or to teach to their followers. You don't need to be a member of the church to get married there, nor even part of their religion. This is very far from a private matter.
I do not know much about the Anglican Church but from what I read you would want to force all churches to perform marriage rites for same sex couples. So concerning for example the Catholic Church the above is plain wrong. One person must be Catholic for a Catholic marriage to take place. Furthermore, if the partner is not Catholic you need to get a special permission to be married and it's basically up to the priest to decide. In this day and age this could be a formality, I don't know, but the priest could decline to marry you.
This makes sense because for the priest it's more than a service, it's a holy rite and he probably loads sin on himself if he doesn't adhere to his beliefs. Protestants are not that strict but something similar is in place for them as well, if i recall correctly. Does anyone know about Muslim marriages?
Btw Wikipedia says you cannot be married in a Catholic church if you are permanently impotent, they really believe this stuff about procreation and traditional family etc.
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I don't want any individual or group of individuals being forced into doing something they don't want to do, no matter how popular it may seem at the time. As such I don't want churches being forced by the barrel of a gun into doing ceremonies of gay couples that goes against their religious and moral beliefs.
The road to hell is after all paved with good intentions.
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On December 22 2012 23:06 Zergofobic wrote:
I don't want any individual or group of individuals being forced into doing something they don't want to do, no matter how popular it may seem at the time. As such I don't want churches being forced by the barrel of a gun into doing ceremonies of gay couples that goes against their religious and moral beliefs.
The road to hell is after all paved with good intentions.
As is the road to freedom, friend.
Catholic churches don't even marry straight people who aren't catholic, so I think that this law is fine. The church of england is another matter however, I am not sure how that will work.
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On December 22 2012 22:57 silynxer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 22:34 Reason wrote:On December 22 2012 17:49 Maenander wrote:On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
First of all, the definition of marriage.
A mixed badminton tournament is, by definition, one male and one female.
Are you trying to say you think marriage is also so defined?
In my opinion there is no general definition of marriage, every religious sect should define marriage however it pleases. They can marry themselves to ants for all I care. It is the definition of marriages that are legally binding that we should worry about. On December 22 2012 17:16 KwarK wrote:On December 22 2012 07:07 Maenander wrote:
On another note should same-sex couples be allowed in Mixed Badminton tournaments?
I am neither religious nor against same-sex marriage, but I just don't see how one can have a right to be married by a certain religious organization. Religious marriages should just be irrelevant from the perspective of the state. Of course the Anglican church is a special and very different case.
If we want to force state-independent churches to allow same-sex marriages we should do so by public pressure and not by creating laws in my opinion. Of course not. Gay men aren't women, they just like dick as much as straight women. Entry to badminton tournaments isn't based upon how much you like dick. But it is based upon gender. Leave the "sexual"(a linguistic mess) aspect out of it and call it same-sex doubles and it is still a valid point. On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
Secondly, are you are saying religious organisations shouldn't be subject to the same anti-discrimination laws as non-religious organisations and if so, why?
I think there should be a limit to how much the state interferes in private matters. Religion should be a private matter. As Kwark already pointed out the problems in the UK stem from the lack of separation of religion and state. If the state endorses a religion it also takes responsibility for its contents. So why did you bring up mixed badminton doubles then? It makes no sense. The church is offering a public service and charging for it, once they did that it no longer became a private matter. No one is telling the church what to believe or to teach to their followers. You don't need to be a member of the church to get married there, nor even part of their religion. This is very far from a private matter. I do not know much about the Anglican Church but from what I read you would want to force all churches to perform marriage rites for same sex couples. So concerning for example the Catholic Church the above is plain wrong. One person must be Catholic for a Catholic marriage to take place. Furthermore, if the partner is not Catholic you need to get a special permission to be married and it's basically up to the priest to decide. In this day and age this could be a formality, I don't know, but the priest could decline to marry you. This makes sense because for the priest it's more than a service, it's a holy rite and he probably loads sin on himself if he doesn't adhere to his beliefs. Protestants are not that strict but something similar is in place for them as well, if i recall correctly. Does anyone know about Muslim marriages? Btw Wikipedia says you cannot be married in a Catholic church if you are permanently impotent, they really believe this stuff about procreation and traditional family etc.
On December 22 2012 22:57 silynxer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 22:34 Reason wrote:On December 22 2012 17:49 Maenander wrote:On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
First of all, the definition of marriage.
A mixed badminton tournament is, by definition, one male and one female.
Are you trying to say you think marriage is also so defined?
In my opinion there is no general definition of marriage, every religious sect should define marriage however it pleases. They can marry themselves to ants for all I care. It is the definition of marriages that are legally binding that we should worry about. On December 22 2012 17:16 KwarK wrote:On December 22 2012 07:07 Maenander wrote:
On another note should same-sex couples be allowed in Mixed Badminton tournaments?
I am neither religious nor against same-sex marriage, but I just don't see how one can have a right to be married by a certain religious organization. Religious marriages should just be irrelevant from the perspective of the state. Of course the Anglican church is a special and very different case.
If we want to force state-independent churches to allow same-sex marriages we should do so by public pressure and not by creating laws in my opinion. Of course not. Gay men aren't women, they just like dick as much as straight women. Entry to badminton tournaments isn't based upon how much you like dick. But it is based upon gender. Leave the "sexual"(a linguistic mess) aspect out of it and call it same-sex doubles and it is still a valid point. On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
Secondly, are you are saying religious organisations shouldn't be subject to the same anti-discrimination laws as non-religious organisations and if so, why?
I think there should be a limit to how much the state interferes in private matters. Religion should be a private matter. As Kwark already pointed out the problems in the UK stem from the lack of separation of religion and state. If the state endorses a religion it also takes responsibility for its contents. So why did you bring up mixed badminton doubles then? It makes no sense. The church is offering a public service and charging for it, once they did that it no longer became a private matter. No one is telling the church what to believe or to teach to their followers. You don't need to be a member of the church to get married there, nor even part of their religion. This is very far from a private matter. I do not know much about the Anglican Church but from what I read you would want to force all churches to perform marriage rites for same sex couples. So concerning for example the Catholic Church the above is plain wrong. One person must be Catholic for a Catholic marriage to take place. Furthermore, if the partner is not Catholic you need to get a special permission to be married and it's basically up to the priest to decide. In this day and age this could be a formality, I don't know, but the priest could decline to marry you. This makes sense because for the priest it's more than a service, it's a holy rite and he probably loads sin on himself if he doesn't adhere to his beliefs. Protestants are not that strict but something similar is in place for them as well, if i recall correctly. Does anyone know about Muslim marriages? Btw Wikipedia says you cannot be married in a Catholic church if you are permanently impotent, they really believe this stuff about procreation and traditional family etc.
It seems like things are very different in the UK when it comes to the separation of state and church, including marriage. It's quite mind-boggling actually. Now I understand why the mindset behind the British posts in here seem so alien to me.
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On December 22 2012 23:11 Maenander wrote:
It seems like things are very different in the UK when it comes to the separation of state and church, including marriage. It's quite mind-boggling actually. Now I understand why the mindset behind the British posts in here seem so alien to me.
But there are more churches than the Anglican Church in Britain, so if you make sweeping legislation you should take this into account. Taking on the separation of church and state issue is something I wholeheartedly agree with on the other hand.
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On December 22 2012 22:57 silynxer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 22:34 Reason wrote:On December 22 2012 17:49 Maenander wrote:On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
First of all, the definition of marriage.
A mixed badminton tournament is, by definition, one male and one female.
Are you trying to say you think marriage is also so defined?
In my opinion there is no general definition of marriage, every religious sect should define marriage however it pleases. They can marry themselves to ants for all I care. It is the definition of marriages that are legally binding that we should worry about. On December 22 2012 17:16 KwarK wrote:On December 22 2012 07:07 Maenander wrote:
On another note should same-sex couples be allowed in Mixed Badminton tournaments?
I am neither religious nor against same-sex marriage, but I just don't see how one can have a right to be married by a certain religious organization. Religious marriages should just be irrelevant from the perspective of the state. Of course the Anglican church is a special and very different case.
If we want to force state-independent churches to allow same-sex marriages we should do so by public pressure and not by creating laws in my opinion. Of course not. Gay men aren't women, they just like dick as much as straight women. Entry to badminton tournaments isn't based upon how much you like dick. But it is based upon gender. Leave the "sexual"(a linguistic mess) aspect out of it and call it same-sex doubles and it is still a valid point. On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
Secondly, are you are saying religious organisations shouldn't be subject to the same anti-discrimination laws as non-religious organisations and if so, why?
I think there should be a limit to how much the state interferes in private matters. Religion should be a private matter. As Kwark already pointed out the problems in the UK stem from the lack of separation of religion and state. If the state endorses a religion it also takes responsibility for its contents. So why did you bring up mixed badminton doubles then? It makes no sense. The church is offering a public service and charging for it, once they did that it no longer became a private matter. No one is telling the church what to believe or to teach to their followers. You don't need to be a member of the church to get married there, nor even part of their religion. This is very far from a private matter. I do not know much about the Anglican Church but from what I read you would want to force all churches to perform marriage rites for same sex couples. So concerning for example the Catholic Church the above is plain wrong. One person must be Catholic for a Catholic marriage to take place. Furthermore, if the partner is not Catholic you need to get a special permission to be married and it's basically up to the priest to decide. In this day and age this could be a formality, I don't know, but the priest could decline to marry you. This makes sense because for the priest it's more than a service, it's a holy rite and he probably loads sin on himself if he doesn't adhere to his beliefs. Protestants are not that strict but something similar is in place for them as well, if i recall correctly. Does anyone know about Muslim marriages? Btw Wikipedia says you cannot be married in a Catholic church if you are permanently impotent, they really believe this stuff about procreation and traditional family etc.
..and there's the difference.
'Church of England' is just something people tick on a box when they fill out forms, but don't think about, or really believe in ... until they want to get married in the traditional manner i.e. in a church.
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On December 22 2012 23:47 teapot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 22:57 silynxer wrote:On December 22 2012 22:34 Reason wrote:On December 22 2012 17:49 Maenander wrote:On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
First of all, the definition of marriage.
A mixed badminton tournament is, by definition, one male and one female.
Are you trying to say you think marriage is also so defined?
In my opinion there is no general definition of marriage, every religious sect should define marriage however it pleases. They can marry themselves to ants for all I care. It is the definition of marriages that are legally binding that we should worry about. On December 22 2012 17:16 KwarK wrote:On December 22 2012 07:07 Maenander wrote:
On another note should same-sex couples be allowed in Mixed Badminton tournaments?
I am neither religious nor against same-sex marriage, but I just don't see how one can have a right to be married by a certain religious organization. Religious marriages should just be irrelevant from the perspective of the state. Of course the Anglican church is a special and very different case.
If we want to force state-independent churches to allow same-sex marriages we should do so by public pressure and not by creating laws in my opinion. Of course not. Gay men aren't women, they just like dick as much as straight women. Entry to badminton tournaments isn't based upon how much you like dick. But it is based upon gender. Leave the "sexual"(a linguistic mess) aspect out of it and call it same-sex doubles and it is still a valid point. On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
Secondly, are you are saying religious organisations shouldn't be subject to the same anti-discrimination laws as non-religious organisations and if so, why?
I think there should be a limit to how much the state interferes in private matters. Religion should be a private matter. As Kwark already pointed out the problems in the UK stem from the lack of separation of religion and state. If the state endorses a religion it also takes responsibility for its contents. So why did you bring up mixed badminton doubles then? It makes no sense. The church is offering a public service and charging for it, once they did that it no longer became a private matter. No one is telling the church what to believe or to teach to their followers. You don't need to be a member of the church to get married there, nor even part of their religion. This is very far from a private matter. I do not know much about the Anglican Church but from what I read you would want to force all churches to perform marriage rites for same sex couples. So concerning for example the Catholic Church the above is plain wrong. One person must be Catholic for a Catholic marriage to take place. Furthermore, if the partner is not Catholic you need to get a special permission to be married and it's basically up to the priest to decide. In this day and age this could be a formality, I don't know, but the priest could decline to marry you. This makes sense because for the priest it's more than a service, it's a holy rite and he probably loads sin on himself if he doesn't adhere to his beliefs. Protestants are not that strict but something similar is in place for them as well, if i recall correctly. Does anyone know about Muslim marriages? Btw Wikipedia says you cannot be married in a Catholic church if you are permanently impotent, they really believe this stuff about procreation and traditional family etc. ..and there's the difference. 'Church of England' is just something people tick on a box when they fill out forms, but don't think about, or really believe in ... until they want to get married in the traditional manner i.e. in a church.
Read what I wrote in the post directly above yours. Can you guys (Kwark, Reason, etc.) clarify if you want to force all churches to marry homosexual couples or only the Church of England? Sorry if you already did, but the thread is quite long and from your posts I genuinely think you argued for the former.
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On December 23 2012 00:19 silynxer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 23:47 teapot wrote:On December 22 2012 22:57 silynxer wrote:On December 22 2012 22:34 Reason wrote:On December 22 2012 17:49 Maenander wrote:On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
First of all, the definition of marriage.
A mixed badminton tournament is, by definition, one male and one female.
Are you trying to say you think marriage is also so defined?
In my opinion there is no general definition of marriage, every religious sect should define marriage however it pleases. They can marry themselves to ants for all I care. It is the definition of marriages that are legally binding that we should worry about. On December 22 2012 17:16 KwarK wrote:On December 22 2012 07:07 Maenander wrote:
On another note should same-sex couples be allowed in Mixed Badminton tournaments?
I am neither religious nor against same-sex marriage, but I just don't see how one can have a right to be married by a certain religious organization. Religious marriages should just be irrelevant from the perspective of the state. Of course the Anglican church is a special and very different case.
If we want to force state-independent churches to allow same-sex marriages we should do so by public pressure and not by creating laws in my opinion. Of course not. Gay men aren't women, they just like dick as much as straight women. Entry to badminton tournaments isn't based upon how much you like dick. But it is based upon gender. Leave the "sexual"(a linguistic mess) aspect out of it and call it same-sex doubles and it is still a valid point. On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
Secondly, are you are saying religious organisations shouldn't be subject to the same anti-discrimination laws as non-religious organisations and if so, why?
I think there should be a limit to how much the state interferes in private matters. Religion should be a private matter. As Kwark already pointed out the problems in the UK stem from the lack of separation of religion and state. If the state endorses a religion it also takes responsibility for its contents. So why did you bring up mixed badminton doubles then? It makes no sense. The church is offering a public service and charging for it, once they did that it no longer became a private matter. No one is telling the church what to believe or to teach to their followers. You don't need to be a member of the church to get married there, nor even part of their religion. This is very far from a private matter. I do not know much about the Anglican Church but from what I read you would want to force all churches to perform marriage rites for same sex couples. So concerning for example the Catholic Church the above is plain wrong. One person must be Catholic for a Catholic marriage to take place. Furthermore, if the partner is not Catholic you need to get a special permission to be married and it's basically up to the priest to decide. In this day and age this could be a formality, I don't know, but the priest could decline to marry you. This makes sense because for the priest it's more than a service, it's a holy rite and he probably loads sin on himself if he doesn't adhere to his beliefs. Protestants are not that strict but something similar is in place for them as well, if i recall correctly. Does anyone know about Muslim marriages? Btw Wikipedia says you cannot be married in a Catholic church if you are permanently impotent, they really believe this stuff about procreation and traditional family etc. ..and there's the difference. 'Church of England' is just something people tick on a box when they fill out forms, but don't think about, or really believe in ... until they want to get married in the traditional manner i.e. in a church. Read what I wrote in the post directly above yours. Can you guys (Kwark, Reason, etc.) clarify if you want to force all churches to marry homosexual couples or only the Church of England? Sorry if you already did, but the thread is quite long and from your posts I genuinely think you argued for the former.
I don't think it is forcing any particular church to provide same-sex marriage, just legalizing it for those that are willing.
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United States44255 Posts
On December 23 2012 00:19 silynxer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 23:47 teapot wrote:On December 22 2012 22:57 silynxer wrote:On December 22 2012 22:34 Reason wrote:On December 22 2012 17:49 Maenander wrote:On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
First of all, the definition of marriage.
A mixed badminton tournament is, by definition, one male and one female.
Are you trying to say you think marriage is also so defined?
In my opinion there is no general definition of marriage, every religious sect should define marriage however it pleases. They can marry themselves to ants for all I care. It is the definition of marriages that are legally binding that we should worry about. On December 22 2012 17:16 KwarK wrote:On December 22 2012 07:07 Maenander wrote:
On another note should same-sex couples be allowed in Mixed Badminton tournaments?
I am neither religious nor against same-sex marriage, but I just don't see how one can have a right to be married by a certain religious organization. Religious marriages should just be irrelevant from the perspective of the state. Of course the Anglican church is a special and very different case.
If we want to force state-independent churches to allow same-sex marriages we should do so by public pressure and not by creating laws in my opinion. Of course not. Gay men aren't women, they just like dick as much as straight women. Entry to badminton tournaments isn't based upon how much you like dick. But it is based upon gender. Leave the "sexual"(a linguistic mess) aspect out of it and call it same-sex doubles and it is still a valid point. On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
Secondly, are you are saying religious organisations shouldn't be subject to the same anti-discrimination laws as non-religious organisations and if so, why?
I think there should be a limit to how much the state interferes in private matters. Religion should be a private matter. As Kwark already pointed out the problems in the UK stem from the lack of separation of religion and state. If the state endorses a religion it also takes responsibility for its contents. So why did you bring up mixed badminton doubles then? It makes no sense. The church is offering a public service and charging for it, once they did that it no longer became a private matter. No one is telling the church what to believe or to teach to their followers. You don't need to be a member of the church to get married there, nor even part of their religion. This is very far from a private matter. I do not know much about the Anglican Church but from what I read you would want to force all churches to perform marriage rites for same sex couples. So concerning for example the Catholic Church the above is plain wrong. One person must be Catholic for a Catholic marriage to take place. Furthermore, if the partner is not Catholic you need to get a special permission to be married and it's basically up to the priest to decide. In this day and age this could be a formality, I don't know, but the priest could decline to marry you. This makes sense because for the priest it's more than a service, it's a holy rite and he probably loads sin on himself if he doesn't adhere to his beliefs. Protestants are not that strict but something similar is in place for them as well, if i recall correctly. Does anyone know about Muslim marriages? Btw Wikipedia says you cannot be married in a Catholic church if you are permanently impotent, they really believe this stuff about procreation and traditional family etc. ..and there's the difference. 'Church of England' is just something people tick on a box when they fill out forms, but don't think about, or really believe in ... until they want to get married in the traditional manner i.e. in a church. Read what I wrote in the post directly above yours. Can you guys (Kwark, Reason, etc.) clarify if you want to force all churches to marry homosexual couples or only the Church of England? Sorry if you already did, but the thread is quite long and from your posts I genuinely think you argued for the former.
I want to force all churches to, if they offer a service to the public (such as marriage), offer it in a non discriminatory way. With the CoE I'd ideally like a host of other reforms pushed through too such as women bishops and the like because it's absurd that what is essentially a branch of our executive is allowed to operate an openly sexist policy.
If the church were to cease to provide marriages to any heterosexual couple who wanted them for a fee then the issue would also be solved, the problem is that it is a publicly available service being made available in a discriminatory way.
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United States44255 Posts
On December 23 2012 01:04 teapot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 00:19 silynxer wrote:On December 22 2012 23:47 teapot wrote:On December 22 2012 22:57 silynxer wrote:On December 22 2012 22:34 Reason wrote:On December 22 2012 17:49 Maenander wrote:On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
First of all, the definition of marriage.
A mixed badminton tournament is, by definition, one male and one female.
Are you trying to say you think marriage is also so defined?
In my opinion there is no general definition of marriage, every religious sect should define marriage however it pleases. They can marry themselves to ants for all I care. It is the definition of marriages that are legally binding that we should worry about. On December 22 2012 17:16 KwarK wrote:On December 22 2012 07:07 Maenander wrote:
On another note should same-sex couples be allowed in Mixed Badminton tournaments?
I am neither religious nor against same-sex marriage, but I just don't see how one can have a right to be married by a certain religious organization. Religious marriages should just be irrelevant from the perspective of the state. Of course the Anglican church is a special and very different case.
If we want to force state-independent churches to allow same-sex marriages we should do so by public pressure and not by creating laws in my opinion. Of course not. Gay men aren't women, they just like dick as much as straight women. Entry to badminton tournaments isn't based upon how much you like dick. But it is based upon gender. Leave the "sexual"(a linguistic mess) aspect out of it and call it same-sex doubles and it is still a valid point. On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
Secondly, are you are saying religious organisations shouldn't be subject to the same anti-discrimination laws as non-religious organisations and if so, why?
I think there should be a limit to how much the state interferes in private matters. Religion should be a private matter. As Kwark already pointed out the problems in the UK stem from the lack of separation of religion and state. If the state endorses a religion it also takes responsibility for its contents. So why did you bring up mixed badminton doubles then? It makes no sense. The church is offering a public service and charging for it, once they did that it no longer became a private matter. No one is telling the church what to believe or to teach to their followers. You don't need to be a member of the church to get married there, nor even part of their religion. This is very far from a private matter. I do not know much about the Anglican Church but from what I read you would want to force all churches to perform marriage rites for same sex couples. So concerning for example the Catholic Church the above is plain wrong. One person must be Catholic for a Catholic marriage to take place. Furthermore, if the partner is not Catholic you need to get a special permission to be married and it's basically up to the priest to decide. In this day and age this could be a formality, I don't know, but the priest could decline to marry you. This makes sense because for the priest it's more than a service, it's a holy rite and he probably loads sin on himself if he doesn't adhere to his beliefs. Protestants are not that strict but something similar is in place for them as well, if i recall correctly. Does anyone know about Muslim marriages? Btw Wikipedia says you cannot be married in a Catholic church if you are permanently impotent, they really believe this stuff about procreation and traditional family etc. ..and there's the difference. 'Church of England' is just something people tick on a box when they fill out forms, but don't think about, or really believe in ... until they want to get married in the traditional manner i.e. in a church. Read what I wrote in the post directly above yours. Can you guys (Kwark, Reason, etc.) clarify if you want to force all churches to marry homosexual couples or only the Church of England? Sorry if you already did, but the thread is quite long and from your posts I genuinely think you argued for the former. I don't think it is forcing any particular church to provide same-sex marriage, just legalizing it for those that are willing.
What I want would be forcing, that's what I've been arguing for. What this bill would do is several things. It would legalise it for the churches that are willing, it would provide unprecedented exemptions from antidiscrimination laws for those that aren't, it would act as a precedent that religious convictions should not be held to the same common standards as secular convictions in society and it would involve secular law heavily in the church including laying out a legally approved doctrine and making apostasy and schism illegal.
This bill satisfies nobody. It's a complete clusterfuck.
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On December 23 2012 05:46 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 00:19 silynxer wrote:On December 22 2012 23:47 teapot wrote:On December 22 2012 22:57 silynxer wrote:On December 22 2012 22:34 Reason wrote:On December 22 2012 17:49 Maenander wrote:On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
First of all, the definition of marriage.
A mixed badminton tournament is, by definition, one male and one female.
Are you trying to say you think marriage is also so defined?
In my opinion there is no general definition of marriage, every religious sect should define marriage however it pleases. They can marry themselves to ants for all I care. It is the definition of marriages that are legally binding that we should worry about. On December 22 2012 17:16 KwarK wrote:On December 22 2012 07:07 Maenander wrote:
On another note should same-sex couples be allowed in Mixed Badminton tournaments?
I am neither religious nor against same-sex marriage, but I just don't see how one can have a right to be married by a certain religious organization. Religious marriages should just be irrelevant from the perspective of the state. Of course the Anglican church is a special and very different case.
If we want to force state-independent churches to allow same-sex marriages we should do so by public pressure and not by creating laws in my opinion. Of course not. Gay men aren't women, they just like dick as much as straight women. Entry to badminton tournaments isn't based upon how much you like dick. But it is based upon gender. Leave the "sexual"(a linguistic mess) aspect out of it and call it same-sex doubles and it is still a valid point. On December 22 2012 10:39 Reason wrote:
Secondly, are you are saying religious organisations shouldn't be subject to the same anti-discrimination laws as non-religious organisations and if so, why?
I think there should be a limit to how much the state interferes in private matters. Religion should be a private matter. As Kwark already pointed out the problems in the UK stem from the lack of separation of religion and state. If the state endorses a religion it also takes responsibility for its contents. So why did you bring up mixed badminton doubles then? It makes no sense. The church is offering a public service and charging for it, once they did that it no longer became a private matter. No one is telling the church what to believe or to teach to their followers. You don't need to be a member of the church to get married there, nor even part of their religion. This is very far from a private matter. I do not know much about the Anglican Church but from what I read you would want to force all churches to perform marriage rites for same sex couples. So concerning for example the Catholic Church the above is plain wrong. One person must be Catholic for a Catholic marriage to take place. Furthermore, if the partner is not Catholic you need to get a special permission to be married and it's basically up to the priest to decide. In this day and age this could be a formality, I don't know, but the priest could decline to marry you. This makes sense because for the priest it's more than a service, it's a holy rite and he probably loads sin on himself if he doesn't adhere to his beliefs. Protestants are not that strict but something similar is in place for them as well, if i recall correctly. Does anyone know about Muslim marriages? Btw Wikipedia says you cannot be married in a Catholic church if you are permanently impotent, they really believe this stuff about procreation and traditional family etc. ..and there's the difference. 'Church of England' is just something people tick on a box when they fill out forms, but don't think about, or really believe in ... until they want to get married in the traditional manner i.e. in a church. Read what I wrote in the post directly above yours. Can you guys (Kwark, Reason, etc.) clarify if you want to force all churches to marry homosexual couples or only the Church of England? Sorry if you already did, but the thread is quite long and from your posts I genuinely think you argued for the former. I want to force all churches to, if they offer a service to the public (such as marriage), offer it in a non discriminatory way. With the CoE I'd ideally like a host of other reforms pushed through too such as women bishops and the like because it's absurd that what is essentially a branch of our executive is allowed to operate an openly sexist policy. If the church were to cease to provide marriages to any heterosexual couple who wanted them for a fee then the issue would also be solved, the problem is that it is a publicly available service being made available in a discriminatory way.
So in the situation of Catholic marriages, where heterosexual couples can be denied marriage for a number of reasons (not being Catholic, partner not being Catholic, permanent impotence, etc.) you would actually be fine with it (sorry it's hard for me to interpret the "any")?
If not I don't think there is more to be said. Me and others simply disagree with the notion that the state may define the meaning of a ritual for all religious institutions (and like written again and again the meaning is explicit procreation and a traditional family in the Catholic case, for example). I'd also disagree that marriage is a simple service for any religious person (it's a holy act, changing it's nature desecrates it) if it is taken serious like in the Catholic case but I suppose this was argued to death as well.
[EDIT]: Remember I'm talking about Catholics here. They cannot have a last supper ritual together with Protestants because they don't agree whether you are eating Jesus' body figuratively or literally. Hilarious for non-believers but they take this shit serious.
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