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On October 23 2012 06:42 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. way to miss the point. Either way, you're gonna screw your health up. Saying snus is a great alternative to smoking is ridiculous, you're gonna get cancer either way.
The problem is that there's no research backing that claim up. There's research showing both increased and unchanged risks of cancer. So far every claim of it increasing risks of cancer has been rebuffed, so it's in a standstill.
With what we know right now, snus is a great alternative to smoking, and I'll stand by that until research shows otherwise. It's not harmless, the corrosive effects are still there, but we're really only looking at nicotine as the 'dangerous part'. As I've already said, nicotine is not what's considered the dangerous part of smoking. It's not what gives you the cancers. It's what's addicting, and it's somewhat harmful in different regards (blood pressure and such), but it's nowhere near smoking levels of harmful.
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Euronyme, you have turned what should be an impartial news report on corruption into an attempt to place some biased personal snus affirmation of your habit. really tired of seeing these kind of opening posts where the poster tries to affirm their own personal opinion into a new item. How disappointing.
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Regardless of what most people think, Snus (and chewing tobacco for the most part) is much healthier for you than smoking tobacco. Snus has very minor effects on ones health, besides slight gum recession because of the salt. American chewing tobacco is worse for you, because it causes you to salivate and swallowing tobacco spit is not good for you at all.
I mean come on, when you smoke your inhaling smoke into your lungs! Just that fact should make it obvious that snus is the lesser of the two evils.
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Snus destroys you mouth, I have several friends why use it actively and their dentists can see that they are users in around one second.
Any person who is new to snusing will have a bump above their lip. If you are an experienced user, you will not have that bump. Why is that? Because the snus is corrosive and will eat away at the flesh in your gum.
It may not seems so bad that it creates a nice pocket for itself but trust me, people who have used for long don't have pretty teeth.
There is a fundamental difference between snus and alcohol btw, when you look at either you have to weigh the benefits against the negatives. Banning snus in most of Europe has almost no negative consequences since there is no demand for it. Banning alcohol would create upheaval and would badly damage the economy and boost organized crime. Is either of them morally right? Nope, but moral is subjective 
EDIT: Also, if you are a snuser you are not much of a kisser. That should be reason enough, shouldn't it?
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On October 23 2012 06:21 loladin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 06:18 Promethelax wrote:
where I'm from in the states snus was a pretty big thing. I knew a bunch of guys when I was about 18 who were really into putting a snus pack in a vodka shot and letting it permeate the alcohol with nicotine and taking these snus shots.
Snus is greatly preferable to smoking or chewing tobacco. It doesn't affect those around you which is the main, not health related, draw back to public usage of the other tobacco products.
I haven't seen it up here in Canada at all though. Are you sure that was snus..? Because that sounds fucking horrible. Like super fucking horrible. Anyone who has taken a swig of an ale bottle with snus (dumped) in it would agree.
yes I'm sure and yes it was horrible. But it got you good and fucked up; I never knew anyone to take the snus shots and not black out.
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Difference between dip, chew, snuff and snus
Some forms of tobacco consumed in the mouth may be categorized as:
Snus (Scandinavian) is a moist Scandinavian form of snuff which is placed under the upper lip which does not result in the need for spitting.
Snus (American) is similar to the Scandinavian form of snus. Most American snus generally has a lower moisture content and lower pH, resulting in lower bioavailability of nicotine than Swedish varieties [3]
Chewing tobacco, tobacco furnished as long strands which is placed between the cheek and gum or teeth
Nasal snuff (luktsnus in Swedish and luktesnus in Norwegian), a dry form of snuff which is insufflated or "snuffed" through the nose.
Dipping tobacco (also known as dip, spit tobacco or confusingly moist snuff) is a moist American form of traditional snuff which is placed between the lower lip and the gums and often causes excess saliva while dipping.
Source
Difference between US and Swedish snus.
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On October 23 2012 04:56 Euronyme wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 23 2012 04:45 Robinsa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:39 either I or wrote:On October 23 2012 04:12 heliusx wrote:
I don't really have an opinion of snus and it's pretty dumb to be illegal anyway but if this is true that's some grade A corruption from Malta. Snus still runs the risk of esophageal cancer also I'm sure, and that shit is not pretty. It is dumb for smoking/cigarettes/cigar/nicotine/lung cancer to be banned? No the point would be that since it wont give you lung cancer but can be a substitute to cigarettes it is stupid to ban it. Especially if youre going to allow cigarettes that obviously is worse. Even though snus is practically harmless compared to many of our legal substances, the counter argument would be that as it isn't exactly healthy, there's no point in legalizing it. It's not run by drug cartels, but by very qualified and regulated companies, so there's no "take it off the streets" argument that is found in the marijuana debate. I'd like to see it legalized because as you said it's a substitute, it can be compared with bad fats and sweeteners when it comes to health effects, rather than smoking which is horrible in comparison. Imo it gets an undeserved bad rep because it contains tobacco. I'd like to once more point out that it's not the same as chewing tobacco or the American version. The way it works is that you put a tiny tea bag with steam processed tobacco behind your lip and the thin skin absorbs the nicotine. You don't swallow juices, you don't spit around, you don't chew anything. The man way of doing it is that you skip the bag and have it loose. Still the same idea, but it's moister, so you swallow more. Both are about as popular, with the bags more popular in the cities, and the man way is more spread in the countryside. + Show Spoiler +On October 23 2012 04:50 Epishade wrote:
"It's basically harmless compared to other tobacco products." - from OP
Does anybody else really hate this phrase? Every tobacco product is bad for your health, regardless of the way it is used. Saying something is "basically harmless" in relation to the other ways you can use tobacco is a pretty terrible argument. The wording of it is very misleading. When you can still get gum disease and cancer from tobacco, it is not "basically harmless". It's like comparing cigarettes to more hardcore drugs like meth in that cigarettes are "basically harmless" compared to meth. It's still really bad for you. It's like saying that sugar and fats are basically harmless. Obviously it's not completely true. It's still bad for you, but it won't hurt you much as long as you don't overdo it or are particularly sensitive.
There are snus in the us, but they are slightly different. And that's also how the more popular dipping tobacco is used in the us, sometimes called "dip","rub","chew" or "snuff" as slang, though it is actually "moist snuff"(regular dry snuff is inhaled). Dip is held between lip and gum to be absorbed through the skin(though usually lower lip instead of upper like snus). You don't swallow, but you are supposed to spit out juices that arise from the snuff mixing with your natural saliva. It's not actually chewed(that would be chewing tobacco, which has not been ground).
+ Show Spoiler +
Snus (Scandinavian) is a moist Scandinavian form of snuff which is placed under the upper lip which does not result in the need for spitting.
Snus (American) is similar to the Scandinavian form of snus. Most American snus generally has a lower moisture content and lower pH, resulting in lower bioavailability of nicotine than Swedish varieties
Chewing tobacco, tobacco furnished as long strands which is placed between the cheek and gum or teeth
Nasal snuff (luktsnus in Swedish and luktesnus in Norwegian), a dry form of snuff which is insufflated or "snuffed" through the nose.
Dipping tobacco (also known as dip, spit tobacco or confusingly moist snuff) is a moist American form of traditional snuff which is placed between the lower lip and the gums and often causes excess saliva while dipping.
Chewing and dipping tobacco are thought to cause several oral cancers, from tongue to lip to throat to cheek to gum, etc, but possibly at less risk than smoking. Snus are supposedly safer, but the other smokeless tobaccos aren't necessarily safe.
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Isn't this just another EU ploy to get $? Similar to Microsoft cases and other big company cases. They want to charge them $ because the economy is in a weakened state. The only issue is that these companies are doing a job if they want to raise the taxes on them I'm all for it, but making up a bullshit court case to get cash wastes the company's money on lawyers and it is time consuming for the company rather than just charge them in taxes.
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It's really bad but it's not that amazing.
Germany military companys payed millions to portuguese military to buy them submarines, the deals were over 1000 million euros just with the portuguese deal plus the Greeks.
Corruption is really bad and should be more investigated, especially in Portugal where no one goes to jail.
I'm a smoker and we allready pay for the most expensive tabacco in the world and we can't smoke in many places these days, don't see the need for more options. We should all just quit anyways.
If it's going to be allowed any day, it has to go by proper means, not by shaddy deals.
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On October 23 2012 06:50 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 06:42 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. way to miss the point. Either way, you're gonna screw your health up. Saying snus is a great alternative to smoking is ridiculous, you're gonna get cancer either way. The problem is that there's no research backing that claim up. There's research showing both increased and unchanged risks of cancer. So far every claim of it increasing risks of cancer has been rebuffed, so it's in a standstill. With what we know right now, snus is a great alternative to smoking, and I'll stand by that until research shows otherwise. It's not harmless, the corrosive effects are still there, but we're really only looking at nicotine as the 'dangerous part'. As I've already said, nicotine is not what's considered the dangerous part of smoking. It's not what gives you the cancers. It's what's addicting, and it's somewhat harmful in different regards (blood pressure and such), but it's nowhere near smoking levels of harmful.
So having your jaw or teeth removed is a much greater alternative to cancer in your eyes?
Also, you turned this post into something terrible. When people post articles, I look forward to reading them, but you just turned this thread into a place for you to spew your biased information and try to change people's minds.
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On October 23 2012 06:57 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 06:21 loladin wrote:On October 23 2012 06:18 Promethelax wrote:
where I'm from in the states snus was a pretty big thing. I knew a bunch of guys when I was about 18 who were really into putting a snus pack in a vodka shot and letting it permeate the alcohol with nicotine and taking these snus shots.
Snus is greatly preferable to smoking or chewing tobacco. It doesn't affect those around you which is the main, not health related, draw back to public usage of the other tobacco products.
I haven't seen it up here in Canada at all though. Are you sure that was snus..? Because that sounds fucking horrible. Like super fucking horrible. Anyone who has taken a swig of an ale bottle with snus (dumped) in it would agree. yes I'm sure and yes it was horrible. But it got you good and fucked up; I never knew anyone to take the snus shots and not black out.
This is so strange. I've been on this stuff for 18 years and it has always been around in my environment, and I have never, ever, heard about someone doing something like that. Sure I've witnessed a poor soul that has taken a sip of a can that someone has put snus in, but that has only resulted in a funny face and lots of spitting. I can't imagine that snus would have any part in "fucked up" and "black out". I really can't. A vomit but that's it.
Anyway. Corruption is bad and it's interesting to read others (people from other countries) thoughts about snus.
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On October 23 2012 04:16 MutaDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:15 Tiegrr wrote:
Seems pretty much like the "chewing tobacco" we have here in the states. Personally, I find it disgusting and I support this ban. My friend is 26 and already had to get prosthetics to replace his four front lower teeth a few months ago (he's been using it as an alternative to smoking for about 6 years). Because you find it disgusting, it should be banned?
yeah. theres no medicinal reason for allowing it, so why should we allow something that damages health into the larger EU world so that some company can make some easy money?
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Just because it contains tobacco, they do not allow it, this is stupid, it could help millions of people, to me it is just a nicotine substitute like those you can find in pharmacies, but there is also a big corruption story, like anywhere money is.
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On October 23 2012 06:48 blomsterjohn wrote:
I find it equally disgusting to clean up beer cans/bottles with cig butts in them, hell that cant even be showed down the drain!
Tho it's always funny that the consequences of large-scale corruption is "stepping down" (prolly with a solid parachute as well?)
Me too, but it's not really an issue b/c I don't let people smoke inside my place. Have had a few nasty incidents where I didn't realize a beer bottle had cigarette butts in in though.
The absolute worst was once my drunken friend though assumed someone merely didn't finish his beer (still during the party, not the next morning) and grabbed the beer and started to drink, only to find out someone was using it for their chewing tobacco. I think I'd personally instantly vomit.
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On October 23 2012 06:15 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 05:47 Nihilnovi wrote:On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. You are being ridiculous and your addiction to nicotine is typing the words you are posting here, it's actually kind of sad to see. The gums of long term snus users look absolutely terrible, several of which can fit a small sized potatoe cut in half behind their lip due to the hole from snus usage causing gum retraction. 6 years is not long term, especially if you started at a young age when the body is at its peak physical condition. The problems from nicotine don't arise in such a short timespan, I used to smoke for 10 years between the age of 14 to 24 and had no negative effects on my health during that time, I also used snus on and off. I havent smoked a single cigarette or used nicotine in any way shape or form since. The short term effects were amazing, the feeling of accomplishment after going to the gym when your brain is free to stimulate your reward system is just something on a whole different level, sex becomes so much better and the feelings you experience when you accomplish difficult tasks is extatic. You start encountering issues with poisoning your body and getting addicted to dopamine stimulation from drugs when you get older, making it that much harder to stop. Snus users run an increased risk of pancreatic cancer, have a dysfunctional metabolic system due to high nicotine intake and their blood vessels become increasingly ineffecient. Just this year, type 2 diabetes was linked to the metabolic system and accepted in generally all medical journals, and studies have started not to determine <if> the metabolic dysfunction caused by nicotine increases the chance of diabetes, but by how much. With nicotine being more addicting than both cocaine and heroin due to it's profound impact on the mesombilic pathway ,the psychological risks you take when becoming addicted to something that is 100% proven to retard your brains reward system are tremendous. It alters your whole persona and transforms your way of thinking, they way you experience good things that happen in life becomes less impactful due to the retardation caused by nicotine. Basically, taking a snus is like writing a cheat code that causes you to feel good about yourself, now if you write that cheat code and have that experience 3-10 times a day, when you actually do something awesome your brain just goes "meh". Your whole way of arguing by comparing snus to anything else is warped, you should take something for what it is on itself, you shouldn't cloud your judgement based on your own extreme nicotine addiction, the simple fact is you are a different person both mentally and physically in a negative way when addicting yourself to nicotine or any drug designed to retard your reward system. And yes, alcohol should be illegal, but it will not because of the financial and cultural impact, mainly to how easy it is to produce for the general population, not because of the health risks. Apple pie is delicious. edit: Take it from someone thats "been there and done that", breaking free of a 10 year+ nictoine addiction is one of the hardest things I've had to do in life. What I got in return is a perspective on certain things that nobody can teach you. Quit while you can, the feeling nicotine gives you is replaceable by being awesome. There's no clear research on the health dangers of snus. For instance there is research that suggests that having nicotine in your body increases the risk of dying once you have a heart attack, but it doesn't increase the risk of having one. Most research has counter arguments, and it's blurry to see what the actual risks are and how big they are. Additional potential health risks (if there are any) are rather undiscovered, and there's mainly lobbying back and forth. As it's salty, it's obviously corrosive. I won't deny that, but "long term" is still quite a bloody long time we're talking about. Yeah it's not a good habit to keep throughout your life. It's quite possible you're correct with the mood approach. I haven't heard anything of that, but it makes sense. I do think you might be exaggerating the effect though. It's not like a smoker or a snuser won't ever feel a sense of accomplishment. You take it from your own experience, but there's tonnes of people who've quit with different opinions and approaches, so I'm going to take it with a grain of salt. It's obviously fairly addictive but nowhere near heroin. It doesn't give you a physical withdrawal symptoms, and there's lot's of people who just quit on a whim after several years and never thought more of it. They said they had a harder time quitting with coffee. Obviously this as well is anecdotal evidence I've gathered from my friends, but I hope it shows that there are different opinions on the matter. Maybe it's just the nicotine talking though  Edit. Sorry if I came off as too aggressive. I have a bad habit of doing that in discussions. Thank you for your input, even though I don't necessarily agree with it.
Nicotine has many impacts on you, and many serious withdrawal symptoms.
I covered the way it alters your self-perception in my previous post so I'm not going to touch on that, however there
are many things snus does to the body that may not be that apparent:
Decreases the appetite and sense of taste due to the constant pH imbalance in your mouth. Food tastes MUCH worse.
Try eating an unsalted potatoe, can you even taste the flavor? The salt intake in snus users is several times higher than non-users.
Raises the blood level of blood sugar (glucose) and increases insulin production.
Increases bowel activity, saliva, and phlegm.
Increases heart rate by around 10 to 20 beats per minute. A snus in your mouth is basically like sipping coffee very slowly.
Increases blood pressure by up to 10 mmHg (because it tightens the blood vessels).
Stimulates memory and alertness. People who use tobacco often depend on it to help them accomplish certain tasks and perform well, and can't focus when their nicotine levels get too low.
Boosts mood and may even relieve minor depression.
All nicotine does is replaces vital and essential parts of your bodies functions so that you have to keep using it to feel normal. Think about that for a second, nicotine makes you feel <normal>. What if you could feel this way ALL the time + have high points that overshadow nicotine-hindered high points?
Some things will come in your way, things like anxiety, tension, restlessness, frustration and impatience.
When you stop using nicotine, its not the first day thats bad, it starts after 2-3 days and gets worse.
Common symptoms are difficulties concentrating, drowsiness, irritability and depression followed by constant headaches as your brain is suffering from extreme dopamine withdrawal.
Withdrawal can last months, and the real kicker is that when withdrawal ends, EVERY time you chew, drink or stimulate saliva in any way shape or form you are instantly suffering from the urge to get some nicotine. This can last for over a year, and it sucks some serious ass, especially if you like panfried(caramelized) food(meat).
Most of these things are, generally speaking, not good for your health, no matter how you look at it. Heart attack and cancer are not the only relevant situations to discuss when talking about nicotine, as the media would want you to know. Nothing is set in stone, the oldest woman alive smoked for 80 years, that doesn't prove or disprove anything. MC winning a PvZ with Immortal Sentry doesn't mean PvZ is not forever broken- it's all about the likelyhood.
But risking your life and well being, the limited time you have with loved ones and to chase your dreams, just to replace a function in your brain that you already have- disagree all you want, it took me 10 years of smoking half a pack a day to realize how fucking retarded it is, I can only offer you my insights and wish you the best of luck to come to that realization faster than me.
http://www1.umn.edu/perio/tobacco/nicaddct.html gives some non-biased information on some of the points I bring up, for anyone that wants to see some source.
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Logical: Just saying "snus is better than cigarettes" is not an argument for snus. It's still a negative addition to anyone's life.
Opinion: It smells like shit (worse than cigarettes) and you can tell almost instantly if someone you meet uses snus, either by their breath or their teeth. It would be a blight on the world for more people to use snus for sure, but maybe it's fine if the only new users would be ex-smokers. I have a hard time believing that, though. We shouldn't increase availability/production of harmful substances, we should decrease it.
Sociological: Just to add some facts about snus for people not from Sweden. Snus contra cigarettes you'll find more snus in rural areas and more cigarettes in urban areas. Also you will find more snus in lower socio-economic status coterie and you'll find more cigarettes in higher socio-economic status coteries. So, in Sweden snus vs. cigarettes is not only a question of health, it's also a question of class and regionality.
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More than half the people I normally hang around use Snus, and there is no way even half of them again would smoke. Its great if some people manage to quit smoking because of snus, but I don't think thats the reason why most snusers snus.
Also there hasn't been much research regarding snus' impact on your health, people thought smoking was ok a few decades ago.
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I have myself never used either cigarettes or snus so I guess I'm pretty objective about it, and smoking smells far worse than snus does. While the smell from snus isn't exactly pleasant, it's not horrible and you can only smell it when people either put it into or takes it out of their mouth. Compare this to the time the average smoker spends smoking per day, and the smell from it, aswell as the knowledge that smoking badly hurts everyone around the smoker.
With this said, I wouldn't protest on a future complete ban on cigarettes once the amount of smokers gets low enough to make it possible, but banning snus is pretty silly. If EU seriously pursues a ban, the swedish support for EU gonna go from low to minimal, and I'm not sure we would be able to remain in the EU in that case, that's how big this stuff is in Sweden.
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On October 23 2012 07:15 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 06:50 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 06:42 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. way to miss the point. Either way, you're gonna screw your health up. Saying snus is a great alternative to smoking is ridiculous, you're gonna get cancer either way. The problem is that there's no research backing that claim up. There's research showing both increased and unchanged risks of cancer. So far every claim of it increasing risks of cancer has been rebuffed, so it's in a standstill. With what we know right now, snus is a great alternative to smoking, and I'll stand by that until research shows otherwise. It's not harmless, the corrosive effects are still there, but we're really only looking at nicotine as the 'dangerous part'. As I've already said, nicotine is not what's considered the dangerous part of smoking. It's not what gives you the cancers. It's what's addicting, and it's somewhat harmful in different regards (blood pressure and such), but it's nowhere near smoking levels of harmful. So having your jaw or teeth removed is a much greater alternative to cancer in your eyes?Also, you turned this post into something terrible. When people post articles, I look forward to reading them, but you just turned this thread into a place for you to spew your biased information and try to change people's minds.
Would love to see some of these claims sourced, nowadays (after they removed plexiglass and whatnot from the mix if i remember correctly) i think it actually is rather harmless as a tobacco product - would love to be proved wrong though!
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On October 23 2012 06:50 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 06:42 GreEny K wrote:On October 23 2012 05:10 Euronyme wrote:On October 23 2012 05:07 GreEny K wrote:
"I'm myself a 'snuser' and love it, and I'd like to see it be exported, as it's just a great alternative to smoking."
I am a meth head, it's a great alternative to heroin...
Either way, it's not good, get rid of it all... Uhmhm.. Comparing snus to meth are we? I guess we should ban beer and apple pie too. I mean it's not good for you after all. way to miss the point. Either way, you're gonna screw your health up. Saying snus is a great alternative to smoking is ridiculous, you're gonna get cancer either way. The problem is that there's no research backing that claim up. There's research showing both increased and unchanged risks of cancer. So far every claim of it increasing risks of cancer has been rebuffed, so it's in a standstill. With what we know right now, snus is a great alternative to smoking, and I'll stand by that until research shows otherwise. It's not harmless, the corrosive effects are still there, but we're really only looking at nicotine as the 'dangerous part'. As I've already said, nicotine is not what's considered the dangerous part of smoking. It's not what gives you the cancers. It's what's addicting, and it's somewhat harmful in different regards (blood pressure and such), but it's nowhere near smoking levels of harmful.
There's plenty of research on what chewing tobacco does to you...
I used to smoke and did the lip too and 5 years after quitting my lungs are completely fine yet my gums sometimes get sore and have receded around some teeth. Any dentist will lecture you on the possible complications.
Of course, you can choose to be a stubborn sheep just to justify your shitty habit - that's your right. Just don't claim something that makes 0 sense.
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