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Since so much has been said in this thread, it seems reasonable that I have a great number of thoughts. Perhaps the length of this post will be offset by - what I hope - are my civilly-written insights:
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I'm curious about this fixation of some to assign singular blame in this incident.
It is completely possible that more than one party is at least partially blameworthy in some degree. It is also completely possible that many other things not even yet listed are at least contributory to the events that transpired. It is also completely possible that there is no one, sufficient cause suitable for succinct explanation of what happened.
It seems quite possible that, like most everything, there is overdetermination in 'the cause.' Or at the very least, there is a multiplicity of convening factors that - only when together - actually led to what did happen.
- You could say that the parents of Amanda were at fault insofar as they did not sufficiently intervene in some way to - prevent this; or that they 'should' have raised a better child
- You could also say that Amanda was at fault, insofar as it was her actual actions that contributed to or even catalyzed certain events
- You could say that it was the bullies' fault, insofar as they were the ones that created the actual social situation that apparently broke her
- You could also say that it was the bullies' parents fault, insofar as they should have raised non-bully children
- You could say that it was the blackmailer's fault for commiting blackmail
- You could also say that it was the school's fault for not intervening in some meaningful way
- You could say that it was a doctor's fault for not noticing anything peculiar when she was taken to hospital
- You could also say it was the Facebook administration's fault for not policing its site well enough
- You could say that it was the internet's fault, insofar as it was involved in enabling the events that transpired
- You could even say that Britain is at fault for having launched an expedition to claim new land that eventually led to the creation of Canadian society that eventually led to today's society in 2012.
All of these things you can say. And in some senses, they would all be true if you were to say them. That doesn't make them all important. In philosophy, one might call any of the above an INUS condition - something that is an insufficient but necessary element of a condition that is unnecessary but sufficient. Pointing to any one of them, or even a group of them, in isolation and saying 'if this hadn't happened. . .' is not the strongest kind of claim to make.
There also is a limit to how useful one's counterfactual proposals can go before they stop being important. For example, if you were to say 'IF she had been more mature and considerate towards the consequences of her actions and did not have the body of a 13-year old and did not live in a society where . . .' the example becomes so distorted that it might as well not even be the same case.
Certainly, it is logically possible that everything about the situation could have been other than what it was. She may even be alive in some possible world. 'She' could even have been the next break-out foreign terran star at IPL5, coming out of the open bracket and taking down the zerg bonjwa, Avilo, in the grand finals.
- But this sort of logical possibilty is not what most mean when talking about how things could have been different.
Considering the multiplicity of factors and possibilities that could have still cropped up and led to the same conclusion, drawing the line of which a condition is 'the cause' or 'merely a factor' is spurious at best. Proximate vs ultimate cause is tricky like that. The whole butterfly -> tornado on other side of world thing as well.
I'm not even going to touch on blame vs dessert here. That would make this post stupidly long.
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There are also a number of statements being made about the mental sophistication of teenagers and there (in)ability to employ reason.
- Is it so wild to think that some teenagers are quite smart? But that some are also not that smart?
- There are some who actively employ reasoning in action-consequence deliberations. But there are also some who are very impulsive and reactionary
- Some teenagers are very reserved and mature. Others are rather outlandish and immature.
I admit that I do not have at hand the specific evidence, but as a student of psychology once upon a time, I recall there being some research that during adolescence, the brain's neural pathways begin to physically restructure and continue to develop into an 'adult brain'. The last thing restrurctured / developed is supposedly the part of the (adult) brain chiefly responsible for cognitions about future consequences. And this development does not fully complete until the early 20s.
That is to say, there's some spectre of evidence to suggest that the 'full powers of reason' are not totally available to teenagers. Certainly, some of it may be, depending on a variety of factors and progress of both physical and mental development it may vary accordingly from person to person.
So, in a certain sense, teenagers are not given the benefit of the doubt and are presumed to be 'not full rational agents.' It is for that reason that children or young teens are actually not capable of legally committing murder EXCEPT when there is an explicit determination that the cognitive levels of the person are sufficiently 'adult' in nature.
Even so, I should think it important to point out that even with a sufficiently developed brain, very few people actually employ rational-logical claim-reason-complexes in everyday life unless they have been specifically trained to do so. It simply isn't 'natural.' To expect it from a barely-teenage girl is questionable at best.
Sure, it would be nice if we could expect those things. But there's this whole thing about tempering one's expectations to social and physical reality and making reasonable demands from people in light of those considerations.
tl;dr: If you thought this was long, it's a good thing I didn't put down everything that I was thinking here.
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While a lot of her actions were in my view wrong, the bullying and stalking that was done of her was way over the top. There are more than a single side to this, and most of them are wrong. So many things could have been done to prevent this. :/
It's unfortunate that she walked down such a dark path and chose to commit suicide in the end. There are a lot of questions that are raised from all of this, but I'd say they're all fairly obvious questions and most likely have been posted many times in this thread. All I can really say is rest in peace, amanda, and that I hope people one day learn how detrimental bullying in high school can be. I was fortunate enough to be able to stand up for myself and my friends back then, but not everyone can do that. I hope others can learn from this.
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On October 15 2012 05:14 Headshothank wrote:
-insert awful picture here-
Just gunna leave this here
No way! You're the first person to notice that double standards exist!
Your picture is so off topic and disrespectful it's not even funny.
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That's the one downside of the internet, and that's why I believe people who are not mature enough to use it properly shouldn't get to use it at all. Even I get scared of using Facebook sometimes, all it takes is somebody coming and while I am logged on at home and they can destroy my reputation with all my family and friends. Luckily I am smart enough to log out whenever I am not using it, but there have been so many situations where I have full access to someone elses.
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On October 15 2012 12:42 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 12:38 BernabusStarcraft2 wrote:
To be honest if you get bullied its your own fault. You have just got to hit them and it will stop.
Like if 4 boys are making fun out of you at the canteen in school, walk up to the leader and punch him in the face.
You might get your ass kicked, but they won't try it again when they know you'll stand up for yourself. They will just go pick on an easier target. (At least for boys) Um, no? If you're physical weaker than them it'll just piss them off and they'll do it more often. 3/10, 1/10 if you're not trolling, because you clearly have no idea at all about being bullied by people who are physically stronger than you are.
1/10
Strength doesn't factor into the equation, you just sucker-punch the guy in the jaw/nose and it's all over the second it started.
Talking from experience.
For girls though.....ye I dunno...
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On October 15 2012 22:35 HeatEXTEND wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 12:42 killa_robot wrote:On October 15 2012 12:38 BernabusStarcraft2 wrote:
To be honest if you get bullied its your own fault. You have just got to hit them and it will stop.
Like if 4 boys are making fun out of you at the canteen in school, walk up to the leader and punch him in the face.
You might get your ass kicked, but they won't try it again when they know you'll stand up for yourself. They will just go pick on an easier target. (At least for boys) Um, no? If you're physical weaker than them it'll just piss them off and they'll do it more often. 3/10, 1/10 if you're not trolling, because you clearly have no idea at all about being bullied by people who are physically stronger than you are. 1/10 Strength doesn't factor into the equation, you just sucker-punch the guy in the jaw/nose and it's all over the second it started. Talking from experience. For girls though.....ye I dunno...
i'm glad you can solve other people's problems based on a single person's experience.
You should be ashamed.
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On October 15 2012 12:42 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 12:38 BernabusStarcraft2 wrote:
To be honest if you get bullied its your own fault. You have just got to hit them and it will stop.
Like if 4 boys are making fun out of you at the canteen in school, walk up to the leader and punch him in the face.
You might get your ass kicked, but they won't try it again when they know you'll stand up for yourself. They will just go pick on an easier target. (At least for boys) Um, no? If you're physical weaker than them it'll just piss them off and they'll do it more often. 3/10, 1/10 if you're not trolling, because you clearly have no idea at all about being bullied by people who are physically stronger than you are.
there was a story where saavandra stabbed dylan ( bully ) 12 times... in the name of self defence
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On October 15 2012 09:36 nitram wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 08:51 Scholera wrote:On October 15 2012 08:40 nitram wrote:On October 15 2012 07:43 Defacer wrote:On October 15 2012 06:37 tokicheese wrote:On October 15 2012 06:26 Scholera wrote:On October 15 2012 05:46 Defacer wrote:On October 15 2012 05:14 Headshothank wrote:
Just gunna leave this here Wow, you've successfully smeared a 15 year old girl who committed suicide without changing my perspective at all. Mods, get this fucking picture off your site before I punch in my computer, please. Exactly what the fuck inspires people to run smear propaganda against dead teen girls? How exactly is it a smear campaign? The picture wasn't very nice but Todd is clearly lying about what actually happened and since people will be fucking punished for what happened to her knowing what actually happened is pretty important... It's trayvon all over again people blindly rage until the actual facts come out and the entire story changes until it doesn't even resemble the first reports. The ONLY defense YOU, or anyone else on this board to defend the actions of these bullies, or the people that extorted or assaulted her, is by dragging her name in the mud. And comparing her to some other poor girl. THAT'S ALL YOU HAVE. THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF A SMEAR CAMPAIGN. What's next ? Are you going to explain to me that date rape doesn't count, if the girl is drunk and has a reputation for being a slut anyways? Or that if a black teenager is walking down the street with a hoodie, that is just cause for tracking and following that kid with a gun? That if a girl posts nude pictures of herself, she deserves to be harassed and bullied and followed where ever she goes? And seriously, where's the mods? You have no clue what your are talking about. All hes doing is pointing out a better perspective on the whole situation. There are many teen suicides due to bullying because of how the person looks but no one cares, at least not to this extent. Now we have a pretty girl thats a dirty drug abusing slut that kills herself and its national news. Really... reallly... I want to tell you to kill yourself. Know why? Because unlike Amanda, who's only "crime" was to have a sexuality and try to survive with her pain by taking drugs, you're saying disgusting, heartless and sickening things about another person. How the fuck can you sit there and not realize that saying those things about another person who never hurt you is actually abhorrent and what you do with your own body is not? @Defacer: Dude, I'm a teenager and I'm not dumb :/ otherwise, I've agreed with everything you've said. Her crime is that shes a stupid slut. That is entirely her fault and she got bullied because of it. People that look bad can't help it, she can. She was a pathetic, weak human being. What I wrote is sickening? Is that coming from someone that wants to tell people to kill themselves because of a forum post...
I didn't tell you to kill yourself. I said I wanted to tell you to kill yourself, because your calling dead depressed teen girls who never went out of their way to hurt anyone, dumb sluts who you're not sorry are dead. She deserves to be alive 1000 times more than you do, kid. "People call her a ho, and I hope to god that it's true; cos see a ho fuck everybody, and a slut fuck everybody but you". you're obviously just mad at her because you've never had pussy and you're jealous.
@Dhalism/HeatExtend: That's my experience too, but it's not always the case. I think girl bullies are more vindictive and cruel at that age though and would be more likely to continue to bully the one girl than simply pick an easier target like boys would.
User was warned for this post
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On October 16 2012 00:21 Scholera wrote:
She deserves to be alive 1000 times more than you do, kid.
This is getting pretty retarded. If you are getting so emotional over discussing a topic you should probably stop discussing it until you can view it from a certain distance and self-composure.
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On October 15 2012 22:35 HeatEXTEND wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 12:42 killa_robot wrote:On October 15 2012 12:38 BernabusStarcraft2 wrote:
To be honest if you get bullied its your own fault. You have just got to hit them and it will stop.
Like if 4 boys are making fun out of you at the canteen in school, walk up to the leader and punch him in the face.
You might get your ass kicked, but they won't try it again when they know you'll stand up for yourself. They will just go pick on an easier target. (At least for boys) Um, no? If you're physical weaker than them it'll just piss them off and they'll do it more often. 3/10, 1/10 if you're not trolling, because you clearly have no idea at all about being bullied by people who are physically stronger than you are. 1/10 Strength doesn't factor into the equation, you just sucker-punch the guy in the jaw/nose and it's all over the second it started. Talking from experience. For girls though.....ye I dunno...
this is 100% true. I was getting harassed and shit by a group of kids in high school much bigger than me on a daily basis. I finally broke my cool and dropped the "leader" with a single shot to the face. They never ever gave me a problem again.
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thats pretty sad, i always wonder why people do stuff like that in the first place and secondly why there wasn't someone who could ve prevented it but thats probably easy to be said cuz when i think about it...if i wanna kill myself there is probably no one who could stop me..
Its probably hypocritical cuz when i think about others i always say "its sad" but when reflecting on myself...i dont care if i am alive or not and i dont get bullied etc
the video itself was kinda "i could cry" cuz that was pretty emotional, didnt watch it till the end cuz it was so sad knowing she actually did it
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On October 15 2012 15:11 The_Frozen_Inferno wrote:
long philosophical post.
I agree, if we have to assign blame it falls upon many different factors. I don't think assigning blame is very important on an arbitrary level. The thing is, I think the real question is what can we learn from what happened? What can we learn so Amanda's death, her compelling story, has some value to society? I really don't think there's no lessons to be learned.
That's kind of the problem. If no one's willing to take responsibility, at least partial responsibility, then no one has learned anything.
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They could stop selling webcams to those under 18...
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On October 16 2012 02:22 forestry wrote:
They could stop selling webcams to those under 18...
Considering how many years of high school she had after the webcam incident, chances are she did not purchase the webcam by walking into the store and buying it. More likely, it was bought for her by her parents (or packaged with the computer they bought her for all I know)
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On October 16 2012 02:22 forestry wrote:
They could stop selling webcams to those under 18...
Or parents could just teach their kids what not to do......
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On October 15 2012 22:35 HeatEXTEND wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2012 12:42 killa_robot wrote:On October 15 2012 12:38 BernabusStarcraft2 wrote:
To be honest if you get bullied its your own fault. You have just got to hit them and it will stop.
Like if 4 boys are making fun out of you at the canteen in school, walk up to the leader and punch him in the face.
You might get your ass kicked, but they won't try it again when they know you'll stand up for yourself. They will just go pick on an easier target. (At least for boys) Um, no? If you're physical weaker than them it'll just piss them off and they'll do it more often. 3/10, 1/10 if you're not trolling, because you clearly have no idea at all about being bullied by people who are physically stronger than you are. 1/10 Strength doesn't factor into the equation, you just sucker-punch the guy in the jaw/nose and it's all over the second it started. Talking from experience. For girls though.....ye I dunno...
Of course strength does not factor if you can smack somebody off-guard on 1v1, have fun when he is with his group of 6+ buddies ready to intervene when they also know that nobody is going to do anything against them if they should. Your sole experience is not a fact and seem oblivious to those who are bullied experience psychological difficulties which contribute to a lack of self-confidence, subsequently making them unable from making that punch in the first place.
Talking from experience.
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As a guy that went to elementary, middle, and high school in PoCo, this news is pretty shocking. Every year in school, there will be at least one spokesperson that would come and talk about bullying and suicides. In most cases, it would be the actual parents that have lost their child and speak through experience. Despite what people think, bullying is(was) quiet high in Canada due to multiculturalism. I had friends who were made fun of because their lunch wasn't a sandwich but sushi.
In my opinion, the main reason why this story in particular went viral is there is that the case itself isn't common. Most common cases of bulling that I have seen, heard, and experienced are sexuality, status, and race and culture in BC. Amanda Todd doesn't fit into any of these categories - she is middle class, white, and above average in appearance. Not only that, her case brings up multiple problems that people need to be aware about.
Amanda Todd
Internet
- I have seen my own share of pornography on the internet during elementary and I don't fault Amanda and her friend going on webcam. However, times are changing and nowadays, Internet can be used for anything. It wasn't the same over a decade ago. There needs to be new standards for kids and the usage of Internet. Amanda was one of the unlucky ones where her identity was found out and resulted in stalking and blackmailing.
Parenting/School
- This part is where I get fucking pissed. WHERE THE FUCK WERE THE PARENTS!?!? They found her in a ditch after getting beat up by kids and had to take her to the hospital after she tried to attempt suicide. Not including self-harm, there are red flags being raised everywhere and nothing was done. What was the school itself doing? Did they not talk to Amanda or the kids?
Kids
-This is bit complicated. If I was part of the mob, and I am good friends with girlfriend of the guy that Amanda slept with, then I probably will be angry at Amanda. The girlfriend could have said anything to her group to get them pumped up and angry. It's her words against Amanda. With the kids already knowing that Amanda has nudes over the Internet and is labeled a "slut" the things the kids did to Amanda isn't out of the ordinary. Sad to say about my area but kids get beaten up all the time and in most cases the offenders get at most a 3 day suspension. Schools need to treat bullying as serious as cheating.
This is a huge wake up call for the school districts and both the school and the parents need to teach their kids about the usage of Internet and have proper care and protection for the kids.
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On October 16 2012 02:22 forestry wrote:
They could stop selling webcams to those under 18...
My parents computer had a webcam when I was like 6. The store didn't sell me one.... They sold one to my dad.
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I'm not sure others have noticed, but her story seems to have some big holes. For one, you can't use boobs as your profile picture on Facebook and certainly not those of a minor. Second, the reaction of the community is pretty strange. If some stranger tried to friend me on Facebook with a profile picture of boobs and told me they belonged to the new girl at my school, I'd be pretty freaked out to be honest. My reaction would only be more negative if this person did not go to my school and was significantly older.
Her parents are also bizarre caricatures of real people in this story. They care enough about her to move schools but not enough to confront the kids or their parents of the people who are bullying her or the dude who is torturing her on the internet. Why wouldn't they ever go to the police with this?
Anyways, some of you are also brutal to say this isn't a tragedy. A young person dying is always a tragedy because she had a tough time but she could go on to have a long and happy life.
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On October 16 2012 02:22 forestry wrote:
They could stop selling webcams to those under 18...
Lots of webcams are built into laptops/desktops, this isn't even practical
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EPT
