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On October 12 2012 02:09 DigitalDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 20:02 OceanLab wrote:On October 11 2012 18:17 DigitalDevil wrote:On October 11 2012 18:09 HULKAMANIA wrote:On October 11 2012 17:54 DigitalDevil wrote:On October 11 2012 16:59 HULKAMANIA wrote:On October 11 2012 16:49 DigitalDevil wrote:On October 11 2012 14:38 OceanLab wrote:
People talk about tolerance yet show none.
So what if they do not accept gay people in their ranks? They aren't beating them up or insulting them or anything of the sort are they?
If an individual does not feel comfortable around gay people, who are you to force him to hang out with them?
I mean what stops you from creating a different boy scouts organization that accepts gay people?
PS Just so you know I have nothing against gay people Generally, when people support tolerance, they mean tolerance towards differing points of views that cannot be proven objectively and that don't harm and/or discriminate. A person can be "intolerant" towards things that are factually proven wrong. If I said 2+2=5 and claimed that I have the right to hold that opinion, through rationality, you should be intolerant towards my ignorant statement. As for the latter condition, it might be possible through severe warping of human rights and ethics for a person to somehow provide justification for harm/discrimination. But in a progressive world I wouldn't expect tolerance towards hateful speech/actions that cannot be backed up by reason. In what sense is your stance on homosexuality or human rights "factually" provable? In what sense are you "objectively" correct? Did I say I was objectively correct? As it applies to this thread, the first condition is not what is being argued. What is the issue is that there is blatant discrimination with no reasonable justification. Oh, I get it now. The first condition doesn't apply to the thread. My bad. It's the second condition, which, if I'm following correctly, is that you don't think his position is progressive enough and that it also fosters "hate." Just for clarification: do you think the BSA hates homosexuals? Do you think their speech and actions are hateful? Perhaps you would like to give me reason to think otherwise? I can't answer for him, nor for the BSA, BUT I have a few christians friends that don't approve of homosexuality yet are nowhere near hateful towards gay people, With regard to this boyscout situation, how exactly does being a homosexual have anything to do with being qualified to be a boyscout? You can say you're not being hateful towards gay people yet you end up discriminating against them with your actions. I can say I am not sexist and harbor no ill feelings towards women, but then contrary to my intentions, I treat them like second class citizens.
Yes and in your example you would be in the wrong, but a lot of Christians can't seem to make that connection for some reason. I guess because its only their opinion, and opinions can't be wrong (2+2=5...?).
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On October 12 2012 02:20 Smat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 02:09 DigitalDevil wrote:On October 11 2012 20:02 OceanLab wrote:On October 11 2012 18:17 DigitalDevil wrote:On October 11 2012 18:09 HULKAMANIA wrote:On October 11 2012 17:54 DigitalDevil wrote:On October 11 2012 16:59 HULKAMANIA wrote:On October 11 2012 16:49 DigitalDevil wrote:On October 11 2012 14:38 OceanLab wrote:
People talk about tolerance yet show none.
So what if they do not accept gay people in their ranks? They aren't beating them up or insulting them or anything of the sort are they?
If an individual does not feel comfortable around gay people, who are you to force him to hang out with them?
I mean what stops you from creating a different boy scouts organization that accepts gay people?
PS Just so you know I have nothing against gay people Generally, when people support tolerance, they mean tolerance towards differing points of views that cannot be proven objectively and that don't harm and/or discriminate. A person can be "intolerant" towards things that are factually proven wrong. If I said 2+2=5 and claimed that I have the right to hold that opinion, through rationality, you should be intolerant towards my ignorant statement. As for the latter condition, it might be possible through severe warping of human rights and ethics for a person to somehow provide justification for harm/discrimination. But in a progressive world I wouldn't expect tolerance towards hateful speech/actions that cannot be backed up by reason. In what sense is your stance on homosexuality or human rights "factually" provable? In what sense are you "objectively" correct? Did I say I was objectively correct? As it applies to this thread, the first condition is not what is being argued. What is the issue is that there is blatant discrimination with no reasonable justification. Oh, I get it now. The first condition doesn't apply to the thread. My bad. It's the second condition, which, if I'm following correctly, is that you don't think his position is progressive enough and that it also fosters "hate." Just for clarification: do you think the BSA hates homosexuals? Do you think their speech and actions are hateful? Perhaps you would like to give me reason to think otherwise? I can't answer for him, nor for the BSA, BUT I have a few christians friends that don't approve of homosexuality yet are nowhere near hateful towards gay people, With regard to this boyscout situation, how exactly does being a homosexual have anything to do with being qualified to be a boyscout? You can say you're not being hateful towards gay people yet you end up discriminating against them with your actions. I can say I am not sexist and harbor no ill feelings towards women, but then contrary to my intentions, I treat them like second class citizens. Yes and in your example you would be in the wrong, but a lot of Christians can't seem to make that connection for some reason. I guess because its only their opinion, and opinions can't be wrong (2+2=5...?).
If we take the position that it's an opinion and that an absolute answer cannot be determined or is yet to be determined, then a more progressive person would be inclined to take the stance that promotes a more positive/peaceful outcome. Like who does it hurt exactly to allow gays to be boyscouts?
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On October 12 2012 02:33 DigitalDevil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 02:20 Smat wrote:On October 12 2012 02:09 DigitalDevil wrote:On October 11 2012 20:02 OceanLab wrote:On October 11 2012 18:17 DigitalDevil wrote:On October 11 2012 18:09 HULKAMANIA wrote:On October 11 2012 17:54 DigitalDevil wrote:On October 11 2012 16:59 HULKAMANIA wrote:On October 11 2012 16:49 DigitalDevil wrote:On October 11 2012 14:38 OceanLab wrote:
People talk about tolerance yet show none.
So what if they do not accept gay people in their ranks? They aren't beating them up or insulting them or anything of the sort are they?
If an individual does not feel comfortable around gay people, who are you to force him to hang out with them?
I mean what stops you from creating a different boy scouts organization that accepts gay people?
PS Just so you know I have nothing against gay people Generally, when people support tolerance, they mean tolerance towards differing points of views that cannot be proven objectively and that don't harm and/or discriminate. A person can be "intolerant" towards things that are factually proven wrong. If I said 2+2=5 and claimed that I have the right to hold that opinion, through rationality, you should be intolerant towards my ignorant statement. As for the latter condition, it might be possible through severe warping of human rights and ethics for a person to somehow provide justification for harm/discrimination. But in a progressive world I wouldn't expect tolerance towards hateful speech/actions that cannot be backed up by reason. In what sense is your stance on homosexuality or human rights "factually" provable? In what sense are you "objectively" correct? Did I say I was objectively correct? As it applies to this thread, the first condition is not what is being argued. What is the issue is that there is blatant discrimination with no reasonable justification. Oh, I get it now. The first condition doesn't apply to the thread. My bad. It's the second condition, which, if I'm following correctly, is that you don't think his position is progressive enough and that it also fosters "hate." Just for clarification: do you think the BSA hates homosexuals? Do you think their speech and actions are hateful? Perhaps you would like to give me reason to think otherwise? I can't answer for him, nor for the BSA, BUT I have a few christians friends that don't approve of homosexuality yet are nowhere near hateful towards gay people, With regard to this boyscout situation, how exactly does being a homosexual have anything to do with being qualified to be a boyscout? You can say you're not being hateful towards gay people yet you end up discriminating against them with your actions. I can say I am not sexist and harbor no ill feelings towards women, but then contrary to my intentions, I treat them like second class citizens. Yes and in your example you would be in the wrong, but a lot of Christians can't seem to make that connection for some reason. I guess because its only their opinion, and opinions can't be wrong (2+2=5...?). If we take the position that it's an opinion and that an absolute answer cannot be determined or is yet to be determined, then a more progressive person would be inclined to take the stance that promotes a more positive/peaceful outcome. Like who does it hurt exactly to allow gays to be boyscouts?
Exactly. If it really is just an opinion...then how can you even make rules one way or another?
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On October 12 2012 02:02 Ravensong170 wrote:
Firstly, the organization of the boy scouts is does NOT receive their operating costs from the gov. Funding from jamborees, regardless of if its from the DoD or otherwise doesn't mean they are funding the BSA.
BSA is always a recruiting ground for the military, so for the DoD to give it money, and its a pretty small amount of money relatively. (we have a 14 trillion dollar a year economy and over 30 years the gov. have granted 29 million to the BSA? that's a drop of piss in a well..... those 29 million dollars wouldn't fix the economy.....not even close...) really doesn't change the issue and doesn't have a bearing on whether or not the BSA supports/not gays. (I do completely disagree with the BSA's stance even though I am an Eagle scout.)
Court case aside because it doesn't matter too much in the overall argument. Plenty of cultural institutions(I.e. museums) receive grants from the gov. and yet they are still private institutions. (95% of museums in USA are private, unlike most of europe.) All they are allowed to do with the grant money is what they applied for. A museum can receive money from an openly anti-gay foundation. But if their grant is for restoring an old building? that's all they do with that money, it doesn't mean they hate gays..... everyone is tight for money now... especially non-profits... so where they get their money (if there isn't a conflict of interest) doesn't matter in my eyes.
the DoD didn't give them money for things outside of the Jamborees... (at least in my understanding.) So i dunno why this matters.....
They're still receiving federal funding...
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On October 12 2012 00:02 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 23:33 Klondikebar wrote:On October 11 2012 23:04 micronesia wrote:On October 11 2012 17:32 Introvert wrote:
Didn't we have a similar thread before?
For the record, I am an Eagle Scout.
"Recently, a Scout proactively notified his unit leadership and Eagle Scout counselor that he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God,' and does not meet Scouting's membership standard on sexual orientation," the statement reads. "While the Boy Scouts of America did not proactively ask for this information, based on his statements and after discussion with his family, he is being informed that he is no longer eligible for membership in Scouting."
Why did he say this right before he was going to be given the award? It seems to me that he thought it was a done deal and so saying it would be "sticking it to the BSA." I can see no other reason for this ill timed revelation.
He knew throughout scouting than such practices were not allowed, yet he decided to join and keep it all a secret anyway. I feel bad that he did all the work, but this knowingly deceptive behavior is not becoming of an Eagle Scout (yes, I am aware he was unaware of his orientation at age 6).
An even bigger problem is the following: "he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God'"
This is unacceptable. Every time scouts meet they recite the Pledge of Allegiance, the Scout Oath, and the Scout Law. The first 2 make explicit references to God, and the latter includes the trait of "reverence" in a list of things that a scout should be. Now I don't know if he is an atheist or not, but saying this is a huge no-no, it basically means he was lying all those years and does not believe in a core tenant of the organization's founding. On these grounds alone I support the decision. The only statement from a BSA official listed both Duty to God AND homosexuality as grounds for refusal. This thing about "he was rejected because he's gay!" is only part of the story. The only part people want to focus on.
Don't join an organization you know bans these things in first place. And DON'T reveal right before the final hurdle.
And the scouts are hardly evil, they have a long record of service at the national level and in the community. Whether it's the policy against homosexual scouts or the policy against non-believing scouts, it's the same thing. It's only letting certain types of people into your organization. Saying you shouldn't join an organization that doesn't permit people like you because you are a homosexual, or because you are an atheist/agnostic/etc, sounds good on paper, but there is a problem: there is no substitute for the boy scouts in most areas. If there was only one junior athletic league in a given region, and it didn't allow certain children for reasons that would be illegal in a public venture, it would be hard for the parent to explain to their child why they aren't able to play organized sports. On October 11 2012 22:56 kmillz wrote:On October 11 2012 22:09 Velr wrote:
The problem with this is that you can't or cannot "approve" Homosexuality. Thats like openly approving or not approving people on the grounds of haircolor or size... Homosexuality is not a choice. Are homosexual actions a choice? WTF is the point of this post? I can't see any. Don't the Girl Scouts allow boys to join now? They'd make a pretty good alternative...a better one I'd say since their cookies are so damn delicious. Ideally people would flip the bird to the boy scouts and all start joining the girl scouts instead and the boy scouts would be pushed to the margins of society with racists and misogynists. But in reality, the troop level is so distant from the national leadership that no one will really turn the troops into pariah's and so the national leadership will still have a platform from which to be idiots. I don't think it's typical for boys to join the girl scouts (although from what I've read they make some accommodations for gray areas). Currently there is no reasonable alternative to the BSA in most areas, if you are looking for several things that the BSA offer.
why does it matter if there are reasonable alternatives?
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On October 12 2012 03:48 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 00:02 micronesia wrote:On October 11 2012 23:33 Klondikebar wrote:On October 11 2012 23:04 micronesia wrote:On October 11 2012 17:32 Introvert wrote:
Didn't we have a similar thread before?
For the record, I am an Eagle Scout.
"Recently, a Scout proactively notified his unit leadership and Eagle Scout counselor that he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God,' and does not meet Scouting's membership standard on sexual orientation," the statement reads. "While the Boy Scouts of America did not proactively ask for this information, based on his statements and after discussion with his family, he is being informed that he is no longer eligible for membership in Scouting."
Why did he say this right before he was going to be given the award? It seems to me that he thought it was a done deal and so saying it would be "sticking it to the BSA." I can see no other reason for this ill timed revelation.
He knew throughout scouting than such practices were not allowed, yet he decided to join and keep it all a secret anyway. I feel bad that he did all the work, but this knowingly deceptive behavior is not becoming of an Eagle Scout (yes, I am aware he was unaware of his orientation at age 6).
An even bigger problem is the following: "he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God'"
This is unacceptable. Every time scouts meet they recite the Pledge of Allegiance, the Scout Oath, and the Scout Law. The first 2 make explicit references to God, and the latter includes the trait of "reverence" in a list of things that a scout should be. Now I don't know if he is an atheist or not, but saying this is a huge no-no, it basically means he was lying all those years and does not believe in a core tenant of the organization's founding. On these grounds alone I support the decision. The only statement from a BSA official listed both Duty to God AND homosexuality as grounds for refusal. This thing about "he was rejected because he's gay!" is only part of the story. The only part people want to focus on.
Don't join an organization you know bans these things in first place. And DON'T reveal right before the final hurdle.
And the scouts are hardly evil, they have a long record of service at the national level and in the community. Whether it's the policy against homosexual scouts or the policy against non-believing scouts, it's the same thing. It's only letting certain types of people into your organization. Saying you shouldn't join an organization that doesn't permit people like you because you are a homosexual, or because you are an atheist/agnostic/etc, sounds good on paper, but there is a problem: there is no substitute for the boy scouts in most areas. If there was only one junior athletic league in a given region, and it didn't allow certain children for reasons that would be illegal in a public venture, it would be hard for the parent to explain to their child why they aren't able to play organized sports. On October 11 2012 22:56 kmillz wrote:On October 11 2012 22:09 Velr wrote:
The problem with this is that you can't or cannot "approve" Homosexuality. Thats like openly approving or not approving people on the grounds of haircolor or size... Homosexuality is not a choice. Are homosexual actions a choice? WTF is the point of this post? I can't see any. Don't the Girl Scouts allow boys to join now? They'd make a pretty good alternative...a better one I'd say since their cookies are so damn delicious. Ideally people would flip the bird to the boy scouts and all start joining the girl scouts instead and the boy scouts would be pushed to the margins of society with racists and misogynists. But in reality, the troop level is so distant from the national leadership that no one will really turn the troops into pariah's and so the national leadership will still have a platform from which to be idiots. I don't think it's typical for boys to join the girl scouts (although from what I've read they make some accommodations for gray areas). Currently there is no reasonable alternative to the BSA in most areas, if you are looking for several things that the BSA offer. why does it matter if there are reasonable alternatives?
Why would a boy join girl scouts? I am so confused.
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On October 12 2012 04:02 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 03:48 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 12 2012 00:02 micronesia wrote:On October 11 2012 23:33 Klondikebar wrote:On October 11 2012 23:04 micronesia wrote:On October 11 2012 17:32 Introvert wrote:
Didn't we have a similar thread before?
For the record, I am an Eagle Scout.
"Recently, a Scout proactively notified his unit leadership and Eagle Scout counselor that he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God,' and does not meet Scouting's membership standard on sexual orientation," the statement reads. "While the Boy Scouts of America did not proactively ask for this information, based on his statements and after discussion with his family, he is being informed that he is no longer eligible for membership in Scouting."
Why did he say this right before he was going to be given the award? It seems to me that he thought it was a done deal and so saying it would be "sticking it to the BSA." I can see no other reason for this ill timed revelation.
He knew throughout scouting than such practices were not allowed, yet he decided to join and keep it all a secret anyway. I feel bad that he did all the work, but this knowingly deceptive behavior is not becoming of an Eagle Scout (yes, I am aware he was unaware of his orientation at age 6).
An even bigger problem is the following: "he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God'"
This is unacceptable. Every time scouts meet they recite the Pledge of Allegiance, the Scout Oath, and the Scout Law. The first 2 make explicit references to God, and the latter includes the trait of "reverence" in a list of things that a scout should be. Now I don't know if he is an atheist or not, but saying this is a huge no-no, it basically means he was lying all those years and does not believe in a core tenant of the organization's founding. On these grounds alone I support the decision. The only statement from a BSA official listed both Duty to God AND homosexuality as grounds for refusal. This thing about "he was rejected because he's gay!" is only part of the story. The only part people want to focus on.
Don't join an organization you know bans these things in first place. And DON'T reveal right before the final hurdle.
And the scouts are hardly evil, they have a long record of service at the national level and in the community. Whether it's the policy against homosexual scouts or the policy against non-believing scouts, it's the same thing. It's only letting certain types of people into your organization. Saying you shouldn't join an organization that doesn't permit people like you because you are a homosexual, or because you are an atheist/agnostic/etc, sounds good on paper, but there is a problem: there is no substitute for the boy scouts in most areas. If there was only one junior athletic league in a given region, and it didn't allow certain children for reasons that would be illegal in a public venture, it would be hard for the parent to explain to their child why they aren't able to play organized sports. On October 11 2012 22:56 kmillz wrote:On October 11 2012 22:09 Velr wrote:
The problem with this is that you can't or cannot "approve" Homosexuality. Thats like openly approving or not approving people on the grounds of haircolor or size... Homosexuality is not a choice. Are homosexual actions a choice? WTF is the point of this post? I can't see any. Don't the Girl Scouts allow boys to join now? They'd make a pretty good alternative...a better one I'd say since their cookies are so damn delicious. Ideally people would flip the bird to the boy scouts and all start joining the girl scouts instead and the boy scouts would be pushed to the margins of society with racists and misogynists. But in reality, the troop level is so distant from the national leadership that no one will really turn the troops into pariah's and so the national leadership will still have a platform from which to be idiots. I don't think it's typical for boys to join the girl scouts (although from what I've read they make some accommodations for gray areas). Currently there is no reasonable alternative to the BSA in most areas, if you are looking for several things that the BSA offer. why does it matter if there are reasonable alternatives? Why would a boy join girl scouts? I am so confused.
That's not what he's asking. He's asking why it's even necessary that there need to be separation in the first place. There are cases where is reasonable basis to have separation, but in a case like this, where is the basis?
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I know that this whole thing comes down to two closed-minded groups trying to shove each other's viewpoints down each other's throats, but how does someone who is literally days away from their Eagle award decide that they must go and tell everyone that they're gay right there and right then. He could have waited all of a day after he got it to come out, and nobody would be raging in this thread. I feel like this had to be done on purpose to get a reaction, I refuse to believe that anyone who put that much of their time and effort into scouting could be that short-sighted, it simply can't be a thing.
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On October 12 2012 04:48 Kmatt wrote:
I know that this whole thing comes down to two closed-minded groups trying to shove each other's viewpoints down each other's throats, but how does someone who is literally days away from their Eagle award decide that they must go and tell everyone that they're gay right there and right then. He could have waited all of a day after he got it to come out, and nobody would be raging in this thread. I feel like this had to be done on purpose to get a reaction, I refuse to believe that anyone who put that much of their time and effort into scouting could be that short-sighted, it simply can't be a thing.
My guess would be to draw more attention to the BSA policy than if he had just gotten the award. Now instead of it being "boy not allowed in boy scouts because he is gay" it is "boy denied eagle scout award because he is gay".
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On October 12 2012 04:48 Kmatt wrote:
I know that this whole thing comes down to two closed-minded groups trying to shove each other's viewpoints down each other's throats, but how does someone who is literally days away from their Eagle award decide that they must go and tell everyone that they're gay right there and right then. He could have waited all of a day after he got it to come out, and nobody would be raging in this thread. I feel like this had to be done on purpose to get a reaction, I refuse to believe that anyone who put that much of their time and effort into scouting could be that short-sighted, it simply can't be a thing.
The point is It shouldn't be an issue in the first place.
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United States24752 Posts
On October 12 2012 03:48 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 00:02 micronesia wrote:On October 11 2012 23:33 Klondikebar wrote:On October 11 2012 23:04 micronesia wrote:On October 11 2012 17:32 Introvert wrote:
Didn't we have a similar thread before?
For the record, I am an Eagle Scout.
"Recently, a Scout proactively notified his unit leadership and Eagle Scout counselor that he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God,' and does not meet Scouting's membership standard on sexual orientation," the statement reads. "While the Boy Scouts of America did not proactively ask for this information, based on his statements and after discussion with his family, he is being informed that he is no longer eligible for membership in Scouting."
Why did he say this right before he was going to be given the award? It seems to me that he thought it was a done deal and so saying it would be "sticking it to the BSA." I can see no other reason for this ill timed revelation.
He knew throughout scouting than such practices were not allowed, yet he decided to join and keep it all a secret anyway. I feel bad that he did all the work, but this knowingly deceptive behavior is not becoming of an Eagle Scout (yes, I am aware he was unaware of his orientation at age 6).
An even bigger problem is the following: "he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God'"
This is unacceptable. Every time scouts meet they recite the Pledge of Allegiance, the Scout Oath, and the Scout Law. The first 2 make explicit references to God, and the latter includes the trait of "reverence" in a list of things that a scout should be. Now I don't know if he is an atheist or not, but saying this is a huge no-no, it basically means he was lying all those years and does not believe in a core tenant of the organization's founding. On these grounds alone I support the decision. The only statement from a BSA official listed both Duty to God AND homosexuality as grounds for refusal. This thing about "he was rejected because he's gay!" is only part of the story. The only part people want to focus on.
Don't join an organization you know bans these things in first place. And DON'T reveal right before the final hurdle.
And the scouts are hardly evil, they have a long record of service at the national level and in the community. Whether it's the policy against homosexual scouts or the policy against non-believing scouts, it's the same thing. It's only letting certain types of people into your organization. Saying you shouldn't join an organization that doesn't permit people like you because you are a homosexual, or because you are an atheist/agnostic/etc, sounds good on paper, but there is a problem: there is no substitute for the boy scouts in most areas. If there was only one junior athletic league in a given region, and it didn't allow certain children for reasons that would be illegal in a public venture, it would be hard for the parent to explain to their child why they aren't able to play organized sports. On October 11 2012 22:56 kmillz wrote:On October 11 2012 22:09 Velr wrote:
The problem with this is that you can't or cannot "approve" Homosexuality. Thats like openly approving or not approving people on the grounds of haircolor or size... Homosexuality is not a choice. Are homosexual actions a choice? WTF is the point of this post? I can't see any. Don't the Girl Scouts allow boys to join now? They'd make a pretty good alternative...a better one I'd say since their cookies are so damn delicious. Ideally people would flip the bird to the boy scouts and all start joining the girl scouts instead and the boy scouts would be pushed to the margins of society with racists and misogynists. But in reality, the troop level is so distant from the national leadership that no one will really turn the troops into pariah's and so the national leadership will still have a platform from which to be idiots. I don't think it's typical for boys to join the girl scouts (although from what I've read they make some accommodations for gray areas). Currently there is no reasonable alternative to the BSA in most areas, if you are looking for several things that the BSA offer. why does it matter if there are reasonable alternatives?
Same thing as my sports analogy I gave near the beginning of the quote chain.
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does anyone have any experience with this stuff coming up in practice? when i was in scouts as a kid, 7-8 or so i think, sexuality certainly wasnt on my mind. im not supporting the homophobic stance im just curious about real life occurrences of this and what the end result was.
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On October 12 2012 09:55 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 03:48 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 12 2012 00:02 micronesia wrote:On October 11 2012 23:33 Klondikebar wrote:On October 11 2012 23:04 micronesia wrote:On October 11 2012 17:32 Introvert wrote:
Didn't we have a similar thread before?
For the record, I am an Eagle Scout.
"Recently, a Scout proactively notified his unit leadership and Eagle Scout counselor that he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God,' and does not meet Scouting's membership standard on sexual orientation," the statement reads. "While the Boy Scouts of America did not proactively ask for this information, based on his statements and after discussion with his family, he is being informed that he is no longer eligible for membership in Scouting."
Why did he say this right before he was going to be given the award? It seems to me that he thought it was a done deal and so saying it would be "sticking it to the BSA." I can see no other reason for this ill timed revelation.
He knew throughout scouting than such practices were not allowed, yet he decided to join and keep it all a secret anyway. I feel bad that he did all the work, but this knowingly deceptive behavior is not becoming of an Eagle Scout (yes, I am aware he was unaware of his orientation at age 6).
An even bigger problem is the following: "he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God'"
This is unacceptable. Every time scouts meet they recite the Pledge of Allegiance, the Scout Oath, and the Scout Law. The first 2 make explicit references to God, and the latter includes the trait of "reverence" in a list of things that a scout should be. Now I don't know if he is an atheist or not, but saying this is a huge no-no, it basically means he was lying all those years and does not believe in a core tenant of the organization's founding. On these grounds alone I support the decision. The only statement from a BSA official listed both Duty to God AND homosexuality as grounds for refusal. This thing about "he was rejected because he's gay!" is only part of the story. The only part people want to focus on.
Don't join an organization you know bans these things in first place. And DON'T reveal right before the final hurdle.
And the scouts are hardly evil, they have a long record of service at the national level and in the community. Whether it's the policy against homosexual scouts or the policy against non-believing scouts, it's the same thing. It's only letting certain types of people into your organization. Saying you shouldn't join an organization that doesn't permit people like you because you are a homosexual, or because you are an atheist/agnostic/etc, sounds good on paper, but there is a problem: there is no substitute for the boy scouts in most areas. If there was only one junior athletic league in a given region, and it didn't allow certain children for reasons that would be illegal in a public venture, it would be hard for the parent to explain to their child why they aren't able to play organized sports. On October 11 2012 22:56 kmillz wrote:On October 11 2012 22:09 Velr wrote:
The problem with this is that you can't or cannot "approve" Homosexuality. Thats like openly approving or not approving people on the grounds of haircolor or size... Homosexuality is not a choice. Are homosexual actions a choice? WTF is the point of this post? I can't see any. Don't the Girl Scouts allow boys to join now? They'd make a pretty good alternative...a better one I'd say since their cookies are so damn delicious. Ideally people would flip the bird to the boy scouts and all start joining the girl scouts instead and the boy scouts would be pushed to the margins of society with racists and misogynists. But in reality, the troop level is so distant from the national leadership that no one will really turn the troops into pariah's and so the national leadership will still have a platform from which to be idiots. I don't think it's typical for boys to join the girl scouts (although from what I've read they make some accommodations for gray areas). Currently there is no reasonable alternative to the BSA in most areas, if you are looking for several things that the BSA offer. why does it matter if there are reasonable alternatives? Same thing as my sports analogy I gave near the beginning of the quote chain.
he was saying dont join the BSA; he wasnt saying join a reasonable alternative. so i was unclear why there not being a reasonable alternative even mattered. plus, just because there isn't a reasonable alternative doesnt mean that a private organization should be required to open its doors to everyone.
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United States24752 Posts
On October 12 2012 10:04 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 09:55 micronesia wrote:On October 12 2012 03:48 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 12 2012 00:02 micronesia wrote:On October 11 2012 23:33 Klondikebar wrote:On October 11 2012 23:04 micronesia wrote:On October 11 2012 17:32 Introvert wrote:
Didn't we have a similar thread before?
For the record, I am an Eagle Scout.
"Recently, a Scout proactively notified his unit leadership and Eagle Scout counselor that he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God,' and does not meet Scouting's membership standard on sexual orientation," the statement reads. "While the Boy Scouts of America did not proactively ask for this information, based on his statements and after discussion with his family, he is being informed that he is no longer eligible for membership in Scouting."
Why did he say this right before he was going to be given the award? It seems to me that he thought it was a done deal and so saying it would be "sticking it to the BSA." I can see no other reason for this ill timed revelation.
He knew throughout scouting than such practices were not allowed, yet he decided to join and keep it all a secret anyway. I feel bad that he did all the work, but this knowingly deceptive behavior is not becoming of an Eagle Scout (yes, I am aware he was unaware of his orientation at age 6).
An even bigger problem is the following: "he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God'"
This is unacceptable. Every time scouts meet they recite the Pledge of Allegiance, the Scout Oath, and the Scout Law. The first 2 make explicit references to God, and the latter includes the trait of "reverence" in a list of things that a scout should be. Now I don't know if he is an atheist or not, but saying this is a huge no-no, it basically means he was lying all those years and does not believe in a core tenant of the organization's founding. On these grounds alone I support the decision. The only statement from a BSA official listed both Duty to God AND homosexuality as grounds for refusal. This thing about "he was rejected because he's gay!" is only part of the story. The only part people want to focus on.
Don't join an organization you know bans these things in first place. And DON'T reveal right before the final hurdle.
And the scouts are hardly evil, they have a long record of service at the national level and in the community. Whether it's the policy against homosexual scouts or the policy against non-believing scouts, it's the same thing. It's only letting certain types of people into your organization. Saying you shouldn't join an organization that doesn't permit people like you because you are a homosexual, or because you are an atheist/agnostic/etc, sounds good on paper, but there is a problem: there is no substitute for the boy scouts in most areas. If there was only one junior athletic league in a given region, and it didn't allow certain children for reasons that would be illegal in a public venture, it would be hard for the parent to explain to their child why they aren't able to play organized sports. On October 11 2012 22:56 kmillz wrote:On October 11 2012 22:09 Velr wrote:
The problem with this is that you can't or cannot "approve" Homosexuality. Thats like openly approving or not approving people on the grounds of haircolor or size... Homosexuality is not a choice. Are homosexual actions a choice? WTF is the point of this post? I can't see any. Don't the Girl Scouts allow boys to join now? They'd make a pretty good alternative...a better one I'd say since their cookies are so damn delicious. Ideally people would flip the bird to the boy scouts and all start joining the girl scouts instead and the boy scouts would be pushed to the margins of society with racists and misogynists. But in reality, the troop level is so distant from the national leadership that no one will really turn the troops into pariah's and so the national leadership will still have a platform from which to be idiots. I don't think it's typical for boys to join the girl scouts (although from what I've read they make some accommodations for gray areas). Currently there is no reasonable alternative to the BSA in most areas, if you are looking for several things that the BSA offer. why does it matter if there are reasonable alternatives? Same thing as my sports analogy I gave near the beginning of the quote chain. he was saying dont join the BSA; he wasnt saying join a reasonable alternative. so i was unclear why there not being a reasonable alternative even mattered. plus, just because there isn't a reasonable alternative doesnt mean that a private organization should be required to open its doors to everyone.
Oh, the BSA isn't required to... not saying that. I'm saying the decision not to join the BSA because you are gay, atheistic, etc, isn't necessarily easy. BSA has a monopoly on certain services. Telling someone who wants the general BSA experience that they unilaterally shouldn't because they don't meet one of the silly membership criteria isn't something I would do, personally.
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On October 12 2012 10:20 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 10:04 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 12 2012 09:55 micronesia wrote:On October 12 2012 03:48 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 12 2012 00:02 micronesia wrote:On October 11 2012 23:33 Klondikebar wrote:On October 11 2012 23:04 micronesia wrote:On October 11 2012 17:32 Introvert wrote:
Didn't we have a similar thread before?
For the record, I am an Eagle Scout.
"Recently, a Scout proactively notified his unit leadership and Eagle Scout counselor that he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God,' and does not meet Scouting's membership standard on sexual orientation," the statement reads. "While the Boy Scouts of America did not proactively ask for this information, based on his statements and after discussion with his family, he is being informed that he is no longer eligible for membership in Scouting."
Why did he say this right before he was going to be given the award? It seems to me that he thought it was a done deal and so saying it would be "sticking it to the BSA." I can see no other reason for this ill timed revelation.
He knew throughout scouting than such practices were not allowed, yet he decided to join and keep it all a secret anyway. I feel bad that he did all the work, but this knowingly deceptive behavior is not becoming of an Eagle Scout (yes, I am aware he was unaware of his orientation at age 6).
An even bigger problem is the following: "he does not agree to Scouting's principle of 'Duty to God'"
This is unacceptable. Every time scouts meet they recite the Pledge of Allegiance, the Scout Oath, and the Scout Law. The first 2 make explicit references to God, and the latter includes the trait of "reverence" in a list of things that a scout should be. Now I don't know if he is an atheist or not, but saying this is a huge no-no, it basically means he was lying all those years and does not believe in a core tenant of the organization's founding. On these grounds alone I support the decision. The only statement from a BSA official listed both Duty to God AND homosexuality as grounds for refusal. This thing about "he was rejected because he's gay!" is only part of the story. The only part people want to focus on.
Don't join an organization you know bans these things in first place. And DON'T reveal right before the final hurdle.
And the scouts are hardly evil, they have a long record of service at the national level and in the community. Whether it's the policy against homosexual scouts or the policy against non-believing scouts, it's the same thing. It's only letting certain types of people into your organization. Saying you shouldn't join an organization that doesn't permit people like you because you are a homosexual, or because you are an atheist/agnostic/etc, sounds good on paper, but there is a problem: there is no substitute for the boy scouts in most areas. If there was only one junior athletic league in a given region, and it didn't allow certain children for reasons that would be illegal in a public venture, it would be hard for the parent to explain to their child why they aren't able to play organized sports. On October 11 2012 22:56 kmillz wrote:On October 11 2012 22:09 Velr wrote:
The problem with this is that you can't or cannot "approve" Homosexuality. Thats like openly approving or not approving people on the grounds of haircolor or size... Homosexuality is not a choice. Are homosexual actions a choice? WTF is the point of this post? I can't see any. Don't the Girl Scouts allow boys to join now? They'd make a pretty good alternative...a better one I'd say since their cookies are so damn delicious. Ideally people would flip the bird to the boy scouts and all start joining the girl scouts instead and the boy scouts would be pushed to the margins of society with racists and misogynists. But in reality, the troop level is so distant from the national leadership that no one will really turn the troops into pariah's and so the national leadership will still have a platform from which to be idiots. I don't think it's typical for boys to join the girl scouts (although from what I've read they make some accommodations for gray areas). Currently there is no reasonable alternative to the BSA in most areas, if you are looking for several things that the BSA offer. why does it matter if there are reasonable alternatives? Same thing as my sports analogy I gave near the beginning of the quote chain. he was saying dont join the BSA; he wasnt saying join a reasonable alternative. so i was unclear why there not being a reasonable alternative even mattered. plus, just because there isn't a reasonable alternative doesnt mean that a private organization should be required to open its doors to everyone. Oh, the BSA isn't required to... not saying that. I'm saying the decision not to join the BSA because you are gay, atheistic, etc, isn't necessarily easy. BSA has a monopoly on certain services. Telling someone who wants the general BSA experience that they unilaterally shouldn't because they don't meet one of the silly membership criteria isn't something I would do, personally.
Part of the problem is BSA is in somewhat of a damned if you do damned if you don't situation in regards to the people in their group not wanting the policy to change. There are plenty of people in BSA that do support changing the policies, but I'm inclined to think more of them would oppose it due to irrational fears of pedophiles and because they believe homosexuality is a sin and don't want it around their children (not that it can be avoided anywhere else in their life) and they would also see it as disruptive to their (and their children's) faith. If they change their policy they are going to get alot of backlash from the people in their community that support them.
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On October 09 2012 00:47 neversummer wrote:
First of all I don't think anyone is supporting the Boy Scouts of America.
Secondly I applaud them for maintaining their position in the midst of criticism from the community; I've never really cared for what is "politically" correct and quite frankly I don't think gay men should be prancing around with large groups of 8-10 year old boys.
User was temp banned for this post.
People like this... sigh.
In their narrowminded view gay automaticly means they are active pedosexuals too.
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Teamliquid is an great site. I like that these topics can be discussed with some success here. Its a good thing.
Heres one of my trains of thought: What is the main force behind the stance that homosexuality is ok? If its a do whatever makes you happy but doesn't harm society idea.... Whats wrong with beastiality? It wont harm anybody? (cept some diseases theoretically) yet many many people who state homosexuality is fine would say that beastiality is wrong.
Where do people without a belief set (religious or otherwise) decide what is right/wrong, what should be tolerated/intolerated get their understanding from?
A Christian follows and agrees with the principles that are taught from a power higher than them.
How do most atheists decide what is acceptable and what is not?
I hope this post is not taken the wrong way. I lack a full understanding of atheist viewpoints.
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On January 29 2013 11:53 HumpingHydra wrote:
Teamliquid is an great site. I like that these topics can be discussed with some success here. Its a good thing.
Heres one of my trains of thought: What is the main force behind the stance that homosexuality is ok? If its a do whatever makes you happy but doesn't harm society idea.... Whats wrong with beastiality? It wont harm anybody? (cept some diseases theoretically) yet many many people who state homosexuality is fine would say that beastiality is wrong.
Where do people without a belief set (religious or otherwise) decide what is right/wrong, what should be tolerated/intolerated get their understanding from?
A Christian follows and agrees with the principles that are taught from a power higher than them.
How do most atheists decide what is acceptable and what is not?
I hope this post is not taken the wrong way. I lack a full understanding of atheist viewpoints.
Ah yes, the good ole bestiality and homosexuality comparisons made by people too busy to actually think for a few seconds.
Can a man say no? Yes. Can an animal? End of discussion. Damn that was hard to think through, eh?
Edit: don't know why I expect anything different from someone who in the same post says he follows higher power morals not realizing he's been taught all his morals by other humans and not God.
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On January 29 2013 11:53 HumpingHydra wrote:
Teamliquid is an great site. I like that these topics can be discussed with some success here. Its a good thing.
Heres one of my trains of thought: What is the main force behind the stance that homosexuality is ok? If its a do whatever makes you happy but doesn't harm society idea.... Whats wrong with beastiality? It wont harm anybody? (cept some diseases theoretically) yet many many people who state homosexuality is fine would say that beastiality is wrong.
Where do people without a belief set (religious or otherwise) decide what is right/wrong, what should be tolerated/intolerated get their understanding from?
A Christian follows and agrees with the principles that are taught from a power higher than them.
How do most atheists decide what is acceptable and what is not?
I hope this post is not taken the wrong way. I lack a full understanding of atheist viewpoints.
Atheists use philosophy (reason and logic) to find out morality among other things. Though being an atheist doesn't make you moral or immoral, it's simply the unbelief in a particular religion. The religious morality is actually quite relativistic, handed down to them by personally chosen (or by human authority) revelations. Lastly, the thought that homosexuality is ok doesn't mean you believe to do whatever makes you happy. In other words, the latter idea is not necessary for the former. There simply is no reason to believe that homosexuality is wrong. (NOTE: I said reason, not revelation). In reply, I ask you this: what is the main force behind the stance that homosexuality is wrong? You will find only hatred, irrationality, or self appointed human authority in this pursuit.
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EPT
