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On January 29 2013 11:53 HumpingHydra wrote:
Teamliquid is an great site. I like that these topics can be discussed with some success here. Its a good thing.
Heres one of my trains of thought: What is the main force behind the stance that homosexuality is ok? If its a do whatever makes you happy but doesn't harm society idea.... Whats wrong with beastiality? It wont harm anybody? (cept some diseases theoretically) yet many many people who state homosexuality is fine would say that beastiality is wrong.
Where do people without a belief set (religious or otherwise) decide what is right/wrong, what should be tolerated/intolerated get their understanding from?
A Christian follows and agrees with the principles that are taught from a power higher than them.
How do most atheists decide what is acceptable and what is not?
I hope this post is not taken the wrong way. I lack a full understanding of atheist viewpoints.
First of all I love your name.
Atheists and religious people learn their values from the same place: their parents and people they respect. Atheists just don't believe they will be damned for eternity for doing things that go against those values. Does this mean they are less likely to follow them? I don't know. The subject matter here is really just as much about religion as it is about the policy of the boyscouts so I don't think it's a big deal to address that first.
Bestiality is wrong because humans function on a different level than animals. This is a very crude comparison but it's similar to why it's unacceptable for adults to have relationships with children.
Edit:
This is the reason the thread got bumped so posts since this probably should be in response to it. It's good news that this is a possibility. Baby steps right? I still find it saddening that many of the sponsors of the Boyscouts are still so openly hateful of homosexuality because of Christianity.
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On January 29 2013 11:53 HumpingHydra wrote:
Teamliquid is an great site. I like that these topics can be discussed with some success here. Its a good thing.
Heres one of my trains of thought: What is the main force behind the stance that homosexuality is ok? If its a do whatever makes you happy but doesn't harm society idea.... Whats wrong with beastiality? It wont harm anybody? (cept some diseases theoretically) yet many many people who state homosexuality is fine would say that beastiality is wrong.
Where do people without a belief set (religious or otherwise) decide what is right/wrong, what should be tolerated/intolerated get their understanding from?
A Christian follows and agrees with the principles that are taught from a power higher than them.
How do most atheists decide what is acceptable and what is not?
I hope this post is not taken the wrong way. I lack a full understanding of atheist viewpoints.
Teamliquid is hardly a great discussion site. The moderators here have a very specific world view (atheist, socialist, socially liberal, etc.) and any ideas outside that are either mocked or infracted or banned.
Which is perfectly fine of course, these are private forums and the people who run them can choose to have them be nothing more than an echo chamber if that's what they want.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On January 29 2013 12:05 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 11:53 HumpingHydra wrote:
Teamliquid is an great site. I like that these topics can be discussed with some success here. Its a good thing.
Heres one of my trains of thought: What is the main force behind the stance that homosexuality is ok? If its a do whatever makes you happy but doesn't harm society idea.... Whats wrong with beastiality? It wont harm anybody? (cept some diseases theoretically) yet many many people who state homosexuality is fine would say that beastiality is wrong.
Where do people without a belief set (religious or otherwise) decide what is right/wrong, what should be tolerated/intolerated get their understanding from?
A Christian follows and agrees with the principles that are taught from a power higher than them.
How do most atheists decide what is acceptable and what is not?
I hope this post is not taken the wrong way. I lack a full understanding of atheist viewpoints. Atheists use philosophy (reason and logic) to find out morality among other things. Though being an atheist doesn't make you moral or immoral, it's simply the unbelief in a particular religion. The religious morality is actually quite relativistic, handed down to them by personally chosen (or by human authority) revelations. Lastly, the thought that homosexuality is ok doesn't mean you believe to do whatever makes you happy. In other words, the latter idea is not necessary for the former. There simply is no reason to believe that homosexuality is wrong. (NOTE: I said reason, not revelation). In reply, I ask you this: what is the main force behind the stance that homosexuality is wrong? You will find only hatred, irrationality, or self appointed human authority in this pursuit.
Any christian who has been lead to christianity through his own experiences will pretty much agree with everything youve said. The bible is pretty clear that none of us are perfect. Paul who was basically the greatest evangel of all time described himself as the chief of all sinners. Peter who was praised repeatedly by Jesus himself in the bible had to deal with racism he was showing against people later in his life.
I dont know any christians personally who would agree with what they have done. Maybe they would agree that they have the right to withhold it but not that it was right of them to do so.
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It all just stems from ignorance. I think it's sad that people are so afraid of something they will go to any length to justify their hatred of it - even citing divine edict.
I hope one day we can learn to live more tolerably.
: (
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On January 29 2013 12:20 Buff345 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 12:05 Roe wrote:On January 29 2013 11:53 HumpingHydra wrote:
Teamliquid is an great site. I like that these topics can be discussed with some success here. Its a good thing.
Heres one of my trains of thought: What is the main force behind the stance that homosexuality is ok? If its a do whatever makes you happy but doesn't harm society idea.... Whats wrong with beastiality? It wont harm anybody? (cept some diseases theoretically) yet many many people who state homosexuality is fine would say that beastiality is wrong.
Where do people without a belief set (religious or otherwise) decide what is right/wrong, what should be tolerated/intolerated get their understanding from?
A Christian follows and agrees with the principles that are taught from a power higher than them.
How do most atheists decide what is acceptable and what is not?
I hope this post is not taken the wrong way. I lack a full understanding of atheist viewpoints. Atheists use philosophy (reason and logic) to find out morality among other things. Though being an atheist doesn't make you moral or immoral, it's simply the unbelief in a particular religion. The religious morality is actually quite relativistic, handed down to them by personally chosen (or by human authority) revelations. Lastly, the thought that homosexuality is ok doesn't mean you believe to do whatever makes you happy. In other words, the latter idea is not necessary for the former. There simply is no reason to believe that homosexuality is wrong. (NOTE: I said reason, not revelation). In reply, I ask you this: what is the main force behind the stance that homosexuality is wrong? You will find only hatred, irrationality, or self appointed human authority in this pursuit. Any christian who has been lead to christianity through his own experiences will pretty much agree with everything youve said. The bible is pretty clear that none of us are perfect. Paul who was basically the greatest evangel of all time described himself as the chief of all sinners. Peter who was praised repeatedly by Jesus himself in the bible had to deal with racism he was showing against people later in his life. I dont know any christians personally who would agree with what they have done. Maybe they would agree that they have the right to withhold it but not that it was right of them to do so.
This. It's upsetting that people feel the need to distance themselves from what is honestly a really interesting and fulfilling way of life because of a few zealots using it for such onerous bigotry.
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The Boy Scouts teaches its values like any other club. Is the argument that they discriminate? MENSA discriminates against low-IQ individuals. Hispanic Scholarship Fund discriminates against those who are not Hispanic. I don't hear anyone crying about the exclusivity of these or similar organizations. I don't think the band-wagon 'get with the program' approach ("get their shit together and join the rest of us in modernity") is going to change their minds about the importance of instilling their tried-and-true values into their members. Well, that's my point of view at least.
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On January 29 2013 12:25 Arghmyliver wrote:
It all just stems from ignorance. I think it's sad that people are so afraid of something they will go to any length to justify their hatred of it - even citing divine edict.
I hope one day we can learn to live more tolerably.
: (
I don't think a low view of homosexuality is "ignorant." People who choose to withhold their support of it may acknowledge that it is uniquely abhorrent in the fact that it has no purpose in producing offspring, which is the biological and anatomical purpose of the sex organs, and as far as sex it only satisfies lust. People may also recognize that homosexuals (specifically men) have to undergo extreme rigor in the safety of their sex because they are more likely to produce stds. Some of those people happen to be Christians, yes, and the Bible does indeed cite two places where homosexuality is explicitly condemned, but in the New Testament it does not offer any leeway to hate. I can't speak for other religions.
Then, of course there are just hateful bigots and you may be more correct in stating that they are ignorant. Nevertheless, just because someone does not support all the values that you may or may not believe in does not make them ignorant.
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On January 29 2013 12:18 Zaqwert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 11:53 HumpingHydra wrote:
Teamliquid is an great site. I like that these topics can be discussed with some success here. Its a good thing.
Heres one of my trains of thought: What is the main force behind the stance that homosexuality is ok? If its a do whatever makes you happy but doesn't harm society idea.... Whats wrong with beastiality? It wont harm anybody? (cept some diseases theoretically) yet many many people who state homosexuality is fine would say that beastiality is wrong.
Where do people without a belief set (religious or otherwise) decide what is right/wrong, what should be tolerated/intolerated get their understanding from?
A Christian follows and agrees with the principles that are taught from a power higher than them.
How do most atheists decide what is acceptable and what is not?
I hope this post is not taken the wrong way. I lack a full understanding of atheist viewpoints. Teamliquid is hardly a great discussion site. The moderators here have a very specific world view (atheist, socialist, socially liberal, etc.) and any ideas outside that are either mocked or infracted or banned. Which is perfectly fine of course, these are private forums and the people who run them can choose to have them be nothing more than an echo chamber if that's what they want.
If you can find a SINGLE example of "any ideas outside that are either mocked or infracted or banned." by a moderator then I'll eat my hat. Ideas that are straight up wrong are "mocked" by TL posters because they are straight up wrong and intelligent posters have the same right to share their opinions as the ones who present hateful backward beliefs as their own.
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On January 29 2013 12:18 Zaqwert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 11:53 HumpingHydra wrote:
Teamliquid is an great site. I like that these topics can be discussed with some success here. Its a good thing.
Heres one of my trains of thought: What is the main force behind the stance that homosexuality is ok? If its a do whatever makes you happy but doesn't harm society idea.... Whats wrong with beastiality? It wont harm anybody? (cept some diseases theoretically) yet many many people who state homosexuality is fine would say that beastiality is wrong.
Where do people without a belief set (religious or otherwise) decide what is right/wrong, what should be tolerated/intolerated get their understanding from?
A Christian follows and agrees with the principles that are taught from a power higher than them.
How do most atheists decide what is acceptable and what is not?
I hope this post is not taken the wrong way. I lack a full understanding of atheist viewpoints. Teamliquid is hardly a great discussion site. The moderators here have a very specific world view (atheist, socialist, socially liberal, etc.) and any ideas outside that are either mocked or infracted or banned. Which is perfectly fine of course, these are private forums and the people who run them can choose to have them be nothing more than an echo chamber if that's what they want. User was temp banned for this post.
Someone hasn't read the US elections thread 
Only things that are banned for are conspiracy theories, undeniable falsehoods, image macros, slander, balance whine, etc.
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On January 29 2013 12:18 Zaqwert wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 11:53 HumpingHydra wrote:
Teamliquid is an great site. I like that these topics can be discussed with some success here. Its a good thing.
Heres one of my trains of thought: What is the main force behind the stance that homosexuality is ok? If its a do whatever makes you happy but doesn't harm society idea.... Whats wrong with beastiality? It wont harm anybody? (cept some diseases theoretically) yet many many people who state homosexuality is fine would say that beastiality is wrong.
Where do people without a belief set (religious or otherwise) decide what is right/wrong, what should be tolerated/intolerated get their understanding from?
A Christian follows and agrees with the principles that are taught from a power higher than them.
How do most atheists decide what is acceptable and what is not?
I hope this post is not taken the wrong way. I lack a full understanding of atheist viewpoints. Teamliquid is hardly a great discussion site. The moderators here have a very specific world view (atheist, socialist, socially liberal, etc.) and any ideas outside that are either mocked or infracted or banned. Which is perfectly fine of course, these are private forums and the people who run them can choose to have them be nothing more than an echo chamber if that's what they want.
You haven't been in the right threads. There's a fairly wide spectrum of political and religious backgrounds on this forum. I've even seen pro-nazi posters last a fair while until they started personally attacking other posters. The main problem is that there aren't many conservative posters, and probably fewer hardcore christian posters. Why? Because there aren't many of them to begin with (internet site aimed at the educated middle class). Because moderators have to weed out the newest generations of OBAMA IS THE ANTICHRIST posters. Because moderators have to weed out the "THE BIBLE SAYS THIS AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD EVEN THOUGH I DON'T EXPRESS THE VALUE OF MY STRONG BELIEF" posters. Because moderators have to ban people who spend less time thinking than they do clicking the post button. Shit posting is shit posting
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I think it's good that some organisations don't change their tradition by public demand.
^what is an undeniable falsehood?
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United States44286 Posts
On January 29 2013 12:30 Foblos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 12:25 Arghmyliver wrote:
It all just stems from ignorance. I think it's sad that people are so afraid of something they will go to any length to justify their hatred of it - even citing divine edict.
I hope one day we can learn to live more tolerably.
: ( I don't think a low view of homosexuality is "ignorant." People who choose to withhold their support of it may acknowledge that it is uniquely abhorrent in the fact that it has no purpose in producing offspring, which is the biological and anatomical purpose of the sex organs, and as far as sex it only satisfies lust. People may also recognize that homosexuals (specifically men) have to undergo extreme rigor in the safety of their sex because they are more likely to produce stds. Some of those people happen to be Christians, yes, and the Bible does indeed cite two places where homosexuality is explicitly condemned, but in the New Testament it does not offer any leeway to hate. I can't speak for other religions. Then, of course there are just hateful bigots and you may be more correct in stating that they are ignorant. Nevertheless, just because someone does not support all the values that you may or may not believe in does not make them ignorant.
For these arguments to be consistent then they must also be applied to infertile people or people who use birth control. It would be very hard to make a case that a group was homophobic if they denied access to anyone who engaged in non procreative sex. But when you say it's about procreation but only pick the subgroup of people having non procreative sex who are gays to discriminate against then it's clear that it's actually another criteria being used.
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I think it's a bit dehumanizing to wildly paint people who discourage the homosexual lifestyle (majority of the world, all of history I'm pretty sure) as "bigots", "ignorant", people who somehow "fear" homosexuals, and especially "hateful". These just aren't accurate. The vast majority of people don't go out of their way to condemn homosexuals as terrible people. They simply believe in the man-and-wife, white picket fence, bring-home-the-bacon kind of lifestyle and I don't think that's to be frowned upon.
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On January 29 2013 12:42 FeelingTookish wrote:
I think it's a bit dehumanizing to wildly paint people who discourage the homosexual lifestyle (majority of the world, all of history I'm pretty sure) as "bigots", "ignorant", people who somehow "fear" homosexuals, and especially "hateful". These just aren't accurate. The vast majority of people don't go out of their way to condemn homosexuals as terrible people. They simply believe in the man-and-wife, white picket fence, bring-home-the-bacon kind of lifestyle and I don't think that's to be frowned upon.
One man, one woman, add misogyny. Got it.
I mean, I don't hate christians. I don't actively condemn them as terrible people (because I stay away from them whenever I can). I just try to make sure that they can't get married or raise children.
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On January 29 2013 12:35 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 12:30 Foblos wrote:On January 29 2013 12:25 Arghmyliver wrote:
It all just stems from ignorance. I think it's sad that people are so afraid of something they will go to any length to justify their hatred of it - even citing divine edict.
I hope one day we can learn to live more tolerably.
: ( I don't think a low view of homosexuality is "ignorant." People who choose to withhold their support of it may acknowledge that it is uniquely abhorrent in the fact that it has no purpose in producing offspring, which is the biological and anatomical purpose of the sex organs, and as far as sex it only satisfies lust. People may also recognize that homosexuals (specifically men) have to undergo extreme rigor in the safety of their sex because they are more likely to produce stds. Some of those people happen to be Christians, yes, and the Bible does indeed cite two places where homosexuality is explicitly condemned, but in the New Testament it does not offer any leeway to hate. I can't speak for other religions. Then, of course there are just hateful bigots and you may be more correct in stating that they are ignorant. Nevertheless, just because someone does not support all the values that you may or may not believe in does not make them ignorant. For these arguments to be consistent then they must also be applied to infertile people or people who use birth control. It would be very hard to make a case that a group was homophobic if they denied access to anyone who engaged in non procreative sex. But when you say it's about procreation but only pick the subgroup of people having non procreative sex who are gays to discriminate against then it's clear that it's actually another criteria being used.
Well, I'm only speaking about homosexuals here, and was giving informed evidence of why people don't like it to illustrate that it isn't solely ignorant people who don't support homosexuality. Regarding the infertile people, that doesn't really apply here because it isn't by choice. The example of people on birth control is a better parallel and we could debate on the morality of whether or not men with girlfriends on birth control should be allowed into the BSA (when I was in it I believe we were expected to not be having sex unless we were married...to a female), but there are also other reasons why a woman might take birth control other than just because she is sexually active. I'm not 100% sure what it is, but I have a friend who is frequently sick and the medicine she is on for her illness is something like $500 before insurance and even after insurance it is cheaper for her to pay for birth control out of pocket and the birth control apparently works at least as well for her as the prescription drugs.
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On January 29 2013 12:42 FeelingTookish wrote:
I think it's a bit dehumanizing to wildly paint people who discourage the homosexual lifestyle (majority of the world, all of history I'm pretty sure) as "bigots", "ignorant", people who somehow "fear" homosexuals, and especially "hateful". These just aren't accurate. The vast majority of people don't go out of their way to condemn homosexuals as terrible people. They simply believe in the man-and-wife, white picket fence, bring-home-the-bacon kind of lifestyle and I don't think that's to be frowned upon.
The problem for me personally though is I have no idea why someone would think its better to be straight or to be gay. Like, how could someone think that one way of life is superior for someone else. I can understand if they are looking at their situation and are like, yo it would be way easier this way. But if the person with the controversial life enjoys living his life that way, then why would anyone else care?
I think thats how it is for most people. Unfortunately, i think people are assuming that the only way for someone to think someone else should live their life differently is because of religion. I dont know if thats true or not, but i know that not all religious people tell others to live their lives certain ways.
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United States44286 Posts
On January 29 2013 12:50 Foblos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 12:35 KwarK wrote:On January 29 2013 12:30 Foblos wrote:On January 29 2013 12:25 Arghmyliver wrote:
It all just stems from ignorance. I think it's sad that people are so afraid of something they will go to any length to justify their hatred of it - even citing divine edict.
I hope one day we can learn to live more tolerably.
: ( I don't think a low view of homosexuality is "ignorant." People who choose to withhold their support of it may acknowledge that it is uniquely abhorrent in the fact that it has no purpose in producing offspring, which is the biological and anatomical purpose of the sex organs, and as far as sex it only satisfies lust. People may also recognize that homosexuals (specifically men) have to undergo extreme rigor in the safety of their sex because they are more likely to produce stds. Some of those people happen to be Christians, yes, and the Bible does indeed cite two places where homosexuality is explicitly condemned, but in the New Testament it does not offer any leeway to hate. I can't speak for other religions. Then, of course there are just hateful bigots and you may be more correct in stating that they are ignorant. Nevertheless, just because someone does not support all the values that you may or may not believe in does not make them ignorant. For these arguments to be consistent then they must also be applied to infertile people or people who use birth control. It would be very hard to make a case that a group was homophobic if they denied access to anyone who engaged in non procreative sex. But when you say it's about procreation but only pick the subgroup of people having non procreative sex who are gays to discriminate against then it's clear that it's actually another criteria being used. Well, I'm only speaking about homosexuals here, and was giving informed evidence of why people don't like it to illustrate that it isn't solely ignorant people who don't support homosexuality. Regarding the infertile people, that doesn't really apply here because it isn't by choice. The example of people on birth control is a better parallel and we could debate on the morality of whether or not men with girlfriends on birth control should be allowed into the BSA (when I was in it I believe we were expected to not be having sex unless we were married...to a female), but there are also other reasons why a woman might take birth control other than just because she is sexually active. I'm not 100% sure what it is, but I have a friend who is frequently sick and the medicine she is on for her illness is something like $500 before insurance and even after insurance it is cheaper for her to pay for birth control out of pocket and the birth control apparently works at least as well for her as the prescription drugs.
Are there any cases of anyone being kicked out of the BSA for having protected sex (condom, blow job, hand job) with their girlfriend? Because if not then the "non procreative sex is lustful and immoral" argument would seem to only apply to gays. This is the problem with these arguments. Gays are, in pretty much every respect, much like everyone else.
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The group is chartered by the US government so they can make these decisions. Nothing in this forum is going to change their ideals. I'm an eagle scout and religious and just because a group doesn't follow what you believe what you think doesn't make them backwards. And its hypocritical to hate people who are religious the same way some religious people hate atheists and gays. their both delusional and bigots.
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On January 29 2013 12:48 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2013 12:42 FeelingTookish wrote:
I think it's a bit dehumanizing to wildly paint people who discourage the homosexual lifestyle (majority of the world, all of history I'm pretty sure) as "bigots", "ignorant", people who somehow "fear" homosexuals, and especially "hateful". These just aren't accurate. The vast majority of people don't go out of their way to condemn homosexuals as terrible people. They simply believe in the man-and-wife, white picket fence, bring-home-the-bacon kind of lifestyle and I don't think that's to be frowned upon. One man, one woman, add misogyny. Got it. I mean, I don't hate christians. I don't actively condemn them as terrible people (because I stay away from them whenever I can). I just try to make sure that they can't get married or raise children.
I'm not sure belief in traditional gender roles implies misogyny any more than it implies misandry. I think both sexes should be encouraged to use the strengths biologically given to them. And you brought up child-rearing, so I'll pitch this: It's hard to argue that one mother and one father is not demonstrably the ideal situation for a child, however much you may cite the divorce rate, etc.
Edit: *not* demonstrably the ideal
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People may also recognize that homosexuals (specifically men) have to undergo extreme rigor in the safety of their sex because they are more likely to produce stds.
Gently, this is one of those examples of subtle homophobia. As far as I am aware, there is no more likelihood of any given sex act amongst homosexuals propagating STDs (specifically aids) than heterosexual sex. Spread of STDs is more a function of sexual habits (eg lack of condom use due to the thought that they are primarily pointless contraceptives rather than STD barriers) and I would guess a slightly higher degree of promiscuity.
Gay men are no more likely to spread STDs than straight men in an isolated non-iterative context. This is precisely the mistake that most -isms make, to judge individuals based on group trends.
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