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On October 10 2012 14:54 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 13:02 dAPhREAk wrote: its okay for the BSA to stick to their views.
its okay for people to boycott them for their views. No it isn't okay for them to stick to their views, because they are receiving government funding and benefits. Oh snap
User was warned for this post
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On October 09 2012 19:38 VegetarianPeaceLove wrote: If there was a group of girlscouts, would parents be comfortable with a group of all adult males going for the trip? Just trying to firgure out a rational, any time personalopiniond get in the way of reality, we're at a loss.
So, trying to figure it out objectivley, maybe it's just the reality of men, gay or straight that scares people.
Not to get to gross here, but you have a dick that constantly builds stress to eventual eruption. This repeats almost every day and only builds up and needs to be released.
Are you gona leave it up, to the average day dolts to go about it right?
I'm just sprouting ideas, I was molested at a chucky cheese by two gay guys when I was 13 and I don't hold any grudges because I know the minute you generalize you should be brought out side and shot.
You don't hold any grudges against two guys that molested you, wtf?
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On October 10 2012 16:19 stormtemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 16:12 Smat wrote:On October 09 2012 19:38 VegetarianPeaceLove wrote: If there was a group of girlscouts, would parents be comfortable with a group of all adult males going for the trip? Just trying to firgure out a rational, any time personalopiniond get in the way of reality, we're at a loss.
So, trying to figure it out objectivley, maybe it's just the reality of men, gay or straight that scares people.
Not to get to gross here, but you have a dick that constantly builds stress to eventual eruption. This repeats almost every day and only builds up and needs to be released.
Are you gona leave it up, to the average day dolts to go about it right?
I'm just sprouting ideas, I was molested at a chucky cheese by two gay guys when I was 13 and I don't hold any grudges because I know the minute you generalize you should be brought out side and shot. You don't hold any grudges against two guys that molested you, wtf? I think he meant in general, as in, he doesn't hold grudges against gays.
that guy's entire post history is ridiculous troll posts. it's why he's nuked,
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Why is there such a big fuss about this? If they don't want any homosexuals in BSoA then they are free to do so. If you force them to accept homosexuals then that will be forced upon them and they will always be shut out cold from the groups. I think homosexuals should go to places where they feel at home and where they are welcomed, why force themselves into a group of people that will make fun of them and don't want them in the first place?
Conclusion ; I think BSA should be able to have the rules they want, albeit offending.
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On October 10 2012 19:32 OrangeMarmalade wrote: Why is there such a big fuss about this? If they don't want any homosexuals in BSoA then they are free to do so. If you force them to accept homosexuals then that will be forced upon them and they will always be shut out cold from the groups. I think homosexuals should go to places where they feel at home and where they are welcomed, why force themselves into a group of people that will make fun of them and don't want them in the first place?
Conclusion ; I think BSA should be able to have the rules they want, albeit offending.
It's fine if they want to impose their own rules as long as they don't get government funding.
Publicly funded organisations shouldn't be allowed to perpetuate hateful bigotry.
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favorite posts in this thread "I think being gay's fine, I have gays that are fine but I think it's just unnatural and it shouldn't happen!" :D
GhostTK
I'm against gays. I don't believe you are born with a sexual orientation. it is a learned behavior. Im not a homophobe by any means. I have a gay friend and several gay girl friends. I just don't think it is right. i think there is a reason there is man and woman. you don't see gays in animals. maybe occasional but if animals were gay they would all go extinct. theres a reason gays cant' reproduce. it wasn't intended. Therefore it is wrong.
Belha
Kinda this.
I'm have zero problem with gays. I have some gay friends/knowns too. But Jesus crist, i'm fking tired of reading people trying to make it look like a normal thing. Go find "normal", "regular", "natural" in the dictionary. And the antonym of normal, is abnormal. Being gay is indeed abnormal. Accept it. I repeat, i have nothing aganist gay people, gay marriage, or whatever.
What have indeed became normal is commenting "gay=normal" for pure political , bureaucratic and demagogic purposes (like TV ""stars"" and politicians....yes, the best people in the world...). This is sad.
EDIT: Oh and about the "genetic tendence" vs "learned behavior", i'm honestly fking tired. Why? So-called "legit" studies keep coming sustaining both theories ¬¬
What we got here... Is failure to communicate...
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I have happy memories when I was a young little boy scout
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On October 09 2012 03:15 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 03:08 micronesia wrote: There are female leaders in the BSA, and the majority of females are heterosexual, so just stop with the whole discussion on whether or not gay male leaders are more likely to molest scouts. And most rapes are committed by males, so stop trying to impose your own views on the discussion. (I don't actually have a position on whether the fear of pedophilia is a good reason for banning gay Boy Scout leaders, by the way, but I think that it's a legitimate subject of discussion and that censoring the conversation is a great way to validate your own opinions, but a lousy way to have an intelligent debate about something.) Wow what an idea. You act like pedophiles only sexually assault boys or girls based on their sexual orientation.
On October 09 2012 03:11 KiwiQuest wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 02:57 deth2munkies wrote:
It's not just that, there's passages in Revelation condemning one of the churches for allowing homosexuality, saying it will bring them to ruin, there's another passage in one of the Corinthians saying explicitly, "Flee from homosexuality", there's more but I'm too lazy to look it up for some random jackoff that hasn't read the Bible and claims to know everything it says.
I'm making the assumption I know which passages you refer to (there is a passage in each that often pops up when it comes to homosexuality). The one in Corinthians (1:6-9): "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate [malakoi], nor homosexual offenders [arsenokoites], nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God". The problem with this one is that arsenokoites can and have been argued to be homosexuals, but it could also be male prostitutions (making the sin in question prostitution, not homosexuality). Revelations (21:8): "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (King James Bible). Whoremongers have been translated as sexual sinners, whoremongers, fornicators and other such things, meaning there's still a lot of debate whether its actually meant to be homosexuals, or something else. In short: Its not that easy to say. If you wish to, you can argue that homosexuality is forbidden, but its just as easy to argue it isn't. Nice post
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On October 10 2012 13:56 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 13:52 Djzapz wrote:On October 10 2012 13:38 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 10 2012 13:33 Djzapz wrote:On October 10 2012 13:20 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 10 2012 13:18 Djzapz wrote:On October 10 2012 13:02 dAPhREAk wrote: its okay for the BSA to stick to their views.
its okay for people to boycott them for their views. I used to think like that, but in retrospect, people don't necessarily stand up for minorities and we can't trust them to do it. Not every time. i have a problem with the trend of people/government deciding how other people should think, or what they should believe. I don't have a problem when it has to do making sure some people don't get treated like inferior citizen. Government shouldn't dictate what people think - the dislike of homosexuals can't be legislated about, but the discrimination of those people, who some years ago were treated as subhumans, seems important to me. It's easy when you're not affected personally to just say it's fine, though. But it's lazy. nobody has a problem forcing their beliefs on others when they feel their beliefs are justified. thats the whole problem. That's an easy argument to make, "do nothing". But I'm not about to force my beliefs onto anybody, except my frankly basic belief that we're equals and should be treated as such. I don't want to be part of a society which gives more importance to the right to treat others as subhumans than to the right to being treated fairly. And if your principles lead to that kind of shit (and they do), maybe your ideals are more moral than practical. And that's fucking useless. i dont know what you are talking about anymore. I don't know how to re-word it for you. It was pretty simple already.
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On October 10 2012 15:05 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 14:54 Whitewing wrote:On October 10 2012 13:02 dAPhREAk wrote: its okay for the BSA to stick to their views.
its okay for people to boycott them for their views. No it isn't okay for them to stick to their views, because they are receiving government funding and benefits. well i'll be waiting for a counter argument for this, if there even is any...
Cut government funding to the BSA? Make it totally private?
+ Show Spoiler +I mentioned this earlier; I'm still okay with it. I've no reason to believe BSA couldn't support itself, as most Troops already do, in my experience.
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I thought southpark solved this whole deal back in 2001.... (yes it really was in 2001, holy crap thats old)
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On October 10 2012 14:54 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 13:02 dAPhREAk wrote: its okay for the BSA to stick to their views.
its okay for people to boycott them for their views. No it isn't okay for them to stick to their views, because they are receiving government funding and benefits. actually, it is okay for them to stick to their views. you can petition the gov't to remove their public funding and benefits. just remember, this is the same argument pro-life people make for shutting down abortion clinics. you can dictate how the gov't spends your taxpayer dollars, you cannot dictate what other people believe.
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United States24571 Posts
What government funding does the BSA receive? Indirectly they do through a few benefits... but I'm not aware of money being given to the BSA from federal taxpayers.
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On October 11 2012 00:39 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2012 14:54 Whitewing wrote:On October 10 2012 13:02 dAPhREAk wrote: its okay for the BSA to stick to their views.
its okay for people to boycott them for their views. No it isn't okay for them to stick to their views, because they are receiving government funding and benefits. actually, it is okay for them to stick to their views. you can petition the gov't to remove their public funding and benefits. just remember, this is the same argument pro-life people make for shutting down abortion clinics. you can dictate how the gov't spends your taxpayer dollars, you cannot dictate what other people believe.
Except the burden of proof is on the BSA. They're saying "we ban gays because we're a Christian organization." They set themselves up as a religious organization.
The first amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Now, the government really isn't allowed to get involved AT ALL. They certainly aren't allowed to censor them but, because they are a religious organization, they aren't allowed to support them either.
Abortion clinics claim no religious affiliation so the first amendment really has nothing to do with whether or not they get funding.
It's up to the BSA to demonstrate why they should get funding at all. It's not on our backs to demonstrate why they shouldn't get it.
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On October 11 2012 00:49 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 00:39 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 10 2012 14:54 Whitewing wrote:On October 10 2012 13:02 dAPhREAk wrote: its okay for the BSA to stick to their views.
its okay for people to boycott them for their views. No it isn't okay for them to stick to their views, because they are receiving government funding and benefits. actually, it is okay for them to stick to their views. you can petition the gov't to remove their public funding and benefits. just remember, this is the same argument pro-life people make for shutting down abortion clinics. you can dictate how the gov't spends your taxpayer dollars, you cannot dictate what other people believe. Except the burden of proof is on the BSA. They're saying "we ban gays because we're a Christian organization." They set themselves up as a religious organization. The first amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Now, the government really isn't allowed to get involved AT ALL. They certainly aren't allowed to censor them but, because they are a religious organization, they aren't allowed to support them either. Abortion clinics claim no religious affiliation so the first amendment really has nothing to do with whether or not they get funding. It's up to the BSA to demonstrate why they should get funding at all. It's not on our backs to demonstrate why they shouldn't get it. what burden of proof are you referring to? and i wasnt referring to the first amendment with respect to abortion clinics.
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On October 11 2012 01:03 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 00:49 Klondikebar wrote:On October 11 2012 00:39 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 10 2012 14:54 Whitewing wrote:On October 10 2012 13:02 dAPhREAk wrote: its okay for the BSA to stick to their views.
its okay for people to boycott them for their views. No it isn't okay for them to stick to their views, because they are receiving government funding and benefits. actually, it is okay for them to stick to their views. you can petition the gov't to remove their public funding and benefits. just remember, this is the same argument pro-life people make for shutting down abortion clinics. you can dictate how the gov't spends your taxpayer dollars, you cannot dictate what other people believe. Except the burden of proof is on the BSA. They're saying "we ban gays because we're a Christian organization." They set themselves up as a religious organization. The first amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Now, the government really isn't allowed to get involved AT ALL. They certainly aren't allowed to censor them but, because they are a religious organization, they aren't allowed to support them either. Abortion clinics claim no religious affiliation so the first amendment really has nothing to do with whether or not they get funding. It's up to the BSA to demonstrate why they should get funding at all. It's not on our backs to demonstrate why they shouldn't get it. what burden of proof are you referring to?
The burden of proof as to whether or not they should get funding. You implied in your post that the onus is on dissenters to petition the government. I'm arguing the onus is on the BSA to prove they deserve funding in the first place. The default is that the BSA gets no funding.
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I am always baffled when I hear "there is no connection between homosexuality and pedophilia" as the argument for lifting the ban in BSA. While it is true that there is no connection, most pedophiles are male so the concern of females sexually abusing a boy scout should be significantly lower than of men.
"Most sexual offenders against children are male, although female offenders may account for 0.4% to 4% of convicted sexual offenders. On the basis of a range of published reports, McConaghy estimates a 10 to 1 ratio of male-to-female child molesters."
A male pedophile who abuses little boys IS a homosexual. While that does not mean homosexuals are pedophiles, lifting the ban on gays would completely open that door for more pedophiles to prey on small boys because they no longer have to pretend like they are straight.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/display/article/10168/1420331
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On October 11 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 01:03 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 11 2012 00:49 Klondikebar wrote:On October 11 2012 00:39 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 10 2012 14:54 Whitewing wrote:On October 10 2012 13:02 dAPhREAk wrote: its okay for the BSA to stick to their views.
its okay for people to boycott them for their views. No it isn't okay for them to stick to their views, because they are receiving government funding and benefits. actually, it is okay for them to stick to their views. you can petition the gov't to remove their public funding and benefits. just remember, this is the same argument pro-life people make for shutting down abortion clinics. you can dictate how the gov't spends your taxpayer dollars, you cannot dictate what other people believe. Except the burden of proof is on the BSA. They're saying "we ban gays because we're a Christian organization." They set themselves up as a religious organization. The first amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Now, the government really isn't allowed to get involved AT ALL. They certainly aren't allowed to censor them but, because they are a religious organization, they aren't allowed to support them either. Abortion clinics claim no religious affiliation so the first amendment really has nothing to do with whether or not they get funding. It's up to the BSA to demonstrate why they should get funding at all. It's not on our backs to demonstrate why they shouldn't get it. what burden of proof are you referring to? The burden of proof as to whether or not they should get funding. You implied in your post that the onus is on dissenters to petition the government. I'm arguing the onus is on the BSA to prove they deserve funding in the first place. The default is that the BSA gets no funding. How about the burden of proof that they do get public funding in the first place. A lot of people are bringing this up as if it's a well-known fact that everyone knows, in spite of the fact that no one has cited any proof of this—and in fact, I cited Wikipedia earlier, which states that the national council of the BSA is not publically funded. Some people have brought up other benefits such as usage of government-owned property, but that's not quite the same thing, as it's not coming out of anyone's pocket.
On October 10 2012 22:33 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 03:15 qrs wrote:On October 09 2012 03:08 micronesia wrote: There are female leaders in the BSA, and the majority of females are heterosexual, so just stop with the whole discussion on whether or not gay male leaders are more likely to molest scouts. And most rapes are committed by males, so stop trying to impose your own views on the discussion. (I don't actually have a position on whether the fear of pedophilia is a good reason for banning gay Boy Scout leaders, by the way, but I think that it's a legitimate subject of discussion and that censoring the conversation is a great way to validate your own opinions, but a lousy way to have an intelligent debate about something.) Wow what an idea. You act like pedophiles only sexually assault boys or girls based on their sexual orientation. Isn't that the case? Pedophiles do have a sexual orientation ("a sexual preference for ... boys or girls or both").
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On October 11 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2012 01:03 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 11 2012 00:49 Klondikebar wrote:On October 11 2012 00:39 dAPhREAk wrote:On October 10 2012 14:54 Whitewing wrote:On October 10 2012 13:02 dAPhREAk wrote: its okay for the BSA to stick to their views.
its okay for people to boycott them for their views. No it isn't okay for them to stick to their views, because they are receiving government funding and benefits. actually, it is okay for them to stick to their views. you can petition the gov't to remove their public funding and benefits. just remember, this is the same argument pro-life people make for shutting down abortion clinics. you can dictate how the gov't spends your taxpayer dollars, you cannot dictate what other people believe. Except the burden of proof is on the BSA. They're saying "we ban gays because we're a Christian organization." They set themselves up as a religious organization. The first amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Now, the government really isn't allowed to get involved AT ALL. They certainly aren't allowed to censor them but, because they are a religious organization, they aren't allowed to support them either. Abortion clinics claim no religious affiliation so the first amendment really has nothing to do with whether or not they get funding. It's up to the BSA to demonstrate why they should get funding at all. It's not on our backs to demonstrate why they shouldn't get it. what burden of proof are you referring to? The burden of proof as to whether or not they should get funding. You implied in your post that the onus is on dissenters to petition the government. I'm arguing the onus is on the BSA to prove they deserve funding in the first place. The default is that the BSA gets no funding. you have many assumptions that i do not know whether they are true, and dont feel like researching because they are besides the point i was trying to make anyways. i am not sure the BSA is considered a religion for 1st amendment purposes, and im not sure if that would even block their funding in the first place (the 1st amendment's actual language is not applied so religiously--pun intended). however, assuming the BSA was a religious organization and assuming that it was receiving federal funding, which micronesia has questioned and im not sure about, then its safe to assume that they have already met this mythical "burden of proof" that you are referring to but i have never heard of.
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