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I'm not 100% sure i get this right since I am a "recreational" physicist but the idea that I got is that light enters a blob of matter then leaves it as it gets bigger and more dilute. And light gets blue shifted if it falls into a gravitational field, and red shifted if it rises out of one. And then, in this case the gravitational field was stronger on the way in then on the way out, so where is the dark energy?
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anyone know why photons gain energy and hence produce a blue shift as they pass through gravitational field of a clusters of mass?
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On September 17 2012 21:56 Aelfric wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 18:49 Clarity_nl wrote:On September 17 2012 11:08 Thenerf wrote:
@nadafanboy42
The Nobel prize committee pointed out that he didn't understand an expanding universe, nor have any explanation. He put in a place holder constant which to this day has yet to be explained.......well officially at least. Don't be a fanboy. .... Don't be a fanboy? Way to discredit one of the greatest thinkers of his time. He was ahead of his time, a lot of his work paved the way for future advances. He's accomplished more for humanity than you or I ever could. ...Don't be a fanboy? WTF is wrong with people ?? Don't behave like a child please. He was a human, he could be wrong even though he was the greatest mind of his time.
Did I ever say he was right about everything? How am I behaving like a child? I'm not using one liners to discredit
What I'm saying is show some respect. Your use of the phrasing "don't be a fanboy" just boggles my mind.
How dare someone admire a person like Einstein....
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On September 17 2012 23:03 rei wrote:
anyone know why photons gain energy and hence produce a blue shift as they pass through gravitational field of a clusters of mass?
Looking at the equation from the wiki page, it looks like that effect is simply due to the fact that time-space is distorted by the gravitational field. Basically, the light oscillates slower, creating a change in frequency. It's more of an observational effect, rather than the photon loosing/gaining energy.
Or something about bananas. I dunno.
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On September 17 2012 12:27 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I can definitely understand how it can seem that way, with all these fantastic theories after each other. And you are of course correct in the sense that all measurements have errors, and that we can never prove any model 100%. But I find that the more I learn, the more convincing it is. I work in particle physics, and while I understand how that seems like imagination to someone not into the field, the fact is that we test our models to incredible accuracy. My favourite example would be the lamb shift, where you use electromagnetism and quantum field theory (particle physics) to predict the energy levels of a hydrogen atom. Using only electromagnetism and the most basic quantum mechanics you get about 4 digits right, which roughly corresponds to shooting a cannon ball across the atlantic and hitting a specific block in some city. Not bad for accuracy, and managing to do so is probably a sign that your models are on the right track. Adding on all the corrections from more advanced quantum mechanics and particle physics, you can predict the energy levels to 8 digits. Which roughly corresponds to hit a coin when shooting the cannon ball across the atlantic. Which is a pretty convincing accuracy imo, and enough to say that we probably understand pretty well how shooting cannon balls (or the hydrogen atom) works. And when I go to other fields, I feel like you that I am a bit sceptical at first, "can they really be sure about this??", but I tend to find that yes, they seem to know pretty well what they are doing, and yes, they have thought of all the possible loopholes. Again, we can never be 100% sure, but in general the more you look up experimental data and the predictions, the more convinced you get. For cosmology, maybe a better example would be the GPS, that accounts for the effects of warped space time (together with all the mechanics in the satelite, the electromagnetism in the signals, etc) from the earths gravitational field to measure time at a nanosecond level, so we can get accuracy of a few meters on our positions. So have a look at your GPS, see how accurate it is. And realise that without including warped space time, the GPS would be pointing many kilometers differently, and quickly drifting away. See how the point on your GPS doesn't move many kilometers per second? I myself feel pretty confident that today's science is well connected to reality, and built on a solid foundation.
I love this website
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On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point.
I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind.
They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run.
I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless.
All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence.
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On September 18 2012 02:26 Sovern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind. They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run. I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless. All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence.
Your acting like everything technologically related or discovered by science or invented by scientists is inherently bad / makes humans worse /more greedy etc. How about medical advances accidental discoveries( like penicillin I think). Also notice how they say they have DISCOVERVED things not invented . Things can be all Around us but we don't see them anyway . I can't see why your so negative about this . It's great to find things out .
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On September 18 2012 02:26 Sovern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind. They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run. I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless. All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence.
Thats right, we should all just bury our heads in the dirt so that we cant discover anything new and evil to corrupt our society with! (typed on a computer, in a house, with lighting, with running water, from someone who likely uses a motor vehicle, probably owns a cell phone, makes toast in the morning with a toaster, uses a fridge, ad infinitum...)
Scientific discoveries bore you because theyre only discovering things that already exist? Discovering the operations of the universe we live in is pointless? The entire point to life is the acquisition of knowledge and proliferation of our species. Being primitive is not something to aspire to be.
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On September 18 2012 02:26 Sovern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind. They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run. I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless. All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence.
wat.
The beauty of science is that everything that happens in the entire universe happens for a reason, according to some finite and knowable set of arbitrary rules. It's a beautiful piece of equipment that runs infinitely and silently. Saying that science is pointless since it's simply based on something incredibly old is missing the point of why we struggle to understand it.
Creation is beautiful, and it's a pleasure and a joy to fight every day to understand what it is, and what it says about the God who made it.
Besides, pretty much every technological breakthrough of the last century, maybe even ever, is due to pure science. Just imagine where this planet would be without the semiconductor. A scientist discovered that, and it has infinitely improved our existence.
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On September 18 2012 02:35 ghost_403 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 02:26 Sovern wrote:On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind. They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run. I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless. All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence. wat. The beauty of science is that everything that happens in the entire universe happens for a reason, according to some finite and knowable set of arbitrary rules. It's a beautiful piece of equipment that runs infinitely and silently. Saying that science is pointless since it's simply based on something incredibly old is missing the point of why we struggle to understand it. Creation is beautiful, and it's a pleasure and a joy to fight every day to understand what it is, and what it says about the God who made it. Besides, pretty much every technological breakthrough of the last century, maybe even ever, is due to pure science. Just imagine where this planet would be without the semiconductor. A scientist discovered that, and it has infinitely improved our existence.
Personally I could less about if we had semi conductors or medical equipment or not. Everything is subject to impermanence and in the end does not manner. Even if we had all of the medical equipment in the world that's just showing an aversion to disease or death when in reality we will all face death someday no matter what so why try to create technology to fight it instead of embracing it and not taking the subject to positive or negative but what it truly is at face value.
On September 18 2012 02:34 Focuspants wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 02:26 Sovern wrote:On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind. They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run. I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless. All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence. Thats right, we should all just bury our heads in the dirt so that we cant discover anything new and evil to corrupt our society with! (typed on a computer, in a house, with lighting, with running water, from someone who likely uses a motor vehicle, probably owns a cell phone, makes toast in the morning with a toaster, uses a fridge, ad infinitum...) Scientific discoveries bore you because theyre only discovering things that already exist? Discovering the operations of the universe we live in is pointless? The entire point to life is the acquisition of knowledge and proliferation of our species. Being primitive is not something to aspire to be.
How can you discover something that already is there? All of these computers, lighting, and running water were all created through suffering by the way (ever hear of sweat shops) which only fuels more greed and suffering. Someone has to work their balls off and suffer to make the computer parts and get the running water working, why create aversion to not having running water or technology and free ourselves from the clinging?
Also, the entire point of life is what you make it to be there is no set rules, I just prefer to educate people on how to accept things for what they truly are and not to cling to the human condition which is suffering in itself, looking out there or here or for more technology is all an illusion in the human condition and creates more suffering. I dont need any of those things that you listed either, I don't cling to them and need them at all and I can honestly say that people had it just as good if not better 2000 years ago than we have it now. Look at all of the suffering, greed, and ignorance that humans have taken when it comes to society and even society and the democracy that we live in, is in itself based around greed and is corrupt.
On September 18 2012 02:32 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 02:26 Sovern wrote:On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind. They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run. I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless. All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence. Your acting like everything technologically related or discovered by science or invented by scientists is inherently bad / makes humans worse /more greedy etc. How about medical advances accidental discoveries( like penicillin I think). Also notice how they say they have DISCOVERVED things not invented . Things can be all Around us but we don't see them anyway . I can't see why your so negative about this . It's great to find things out .
Something is bad only if viewed as being bad, everything is experience and subject to change therefore I dont cling. Medical advances are not bad or good, they are just that....medical advances. Truth be told a lot of suffering had to be made to find these medical advances which were found due to an aversion of illness (illness is not a negative thing, its out views and perspectives of things in the human condition that make you think that they're bad instead of accepting things for what they truly are and leaving a life free from aversion).
I'm not being negative about this discovery, I just find it humorous that these scientists are assumed to be so brilliant to find discoveries when in actuality the universe is the one that created and found its own discovery and that they keep looking and trying to find new things clinging to the human experience instead of trying to break free from it.
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On September 18 2012 02:41 Sovern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 02:35 ghost_403 wrote:On September 18 2012 02:26 Sovern wrote:On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind. They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run. I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless. All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence. wat. The beauty of science is that everything that happens in the entire universe happens for a reason, according to some finite and knowable set of arbitrary rules. It's a beautiful piece of equipment that runs infinitely and silently. Saying that science is pointless since it's simply based on something incredibly old is missing the point of why we struggle to understand it. Creation is beautiful, and it's a pleasure and a joy to fight every day to understand what it is, and what it says about the God who made it. Besides, pretty much every technological breakthrough of the last century, maybe even ever, is due to pure science. Just imagine where this planet would be without the semiconductor. A scientist discovered that, and it has infinitely improved our existence. Personally I could less about if we had semi conductors or medical equipment or not. Everything is subject to impermanence and in the end does not manner. Even if we had all of the medical equipment in the world that's just showing an aversion to disease or death when in reality we will all face death someday no matter what so why try to create technology to fight it instead of embracing it and not taking the subject to positive or negative but what it truly is at face value.
What the hell? You do know that species are programmed to survive right? Your attitude would have lead to the extinction of everything. We could go your route and not exist, or we could go the normal route and have record low infant mortailty, record high life expectancy, infinitely better living conditions, etc...
Furthermore, following your logic, if trying to put off death is merely ignoring or delaying the certain ending that is death, and is ignorant and pointless, why dont you just kill yourself? Why do you wake up and feed yourself? Why do you drink water? Oh, its because you are biologically programmed to not even believe the bullshit you are saying.
As for your next post:
"How can you discover something that already is there? All of these computers, lighting, and running water were all created through suffering by the way (ever hear of sweat shops) which only fuels more greed and suffering. Someone has to work their balls off and suffer to make the computer parts and get the running water working, why create aversion to not having running water or technology and free ourselves from the clinging?
Also, the entire point of life is what you make it to be there is no set rules, I just prefer to educate people on how to accept things for what they truly are and not to cling to the human condition which is suffering in itself, looking out there or here or for more technology is all an illusion in the human condition and creates more suffering. I dont need any of those things that you listed either, I don't cling to them and need them at all and I can honestly say that people had it just as good if not better 2000 years ago than we have it now. Look at all of the suffering, greed, and ignorance that humans have taken when it comes to society and even society and the democracy that we live in, is in itself based around greed and is corrupt. "
Discovering something is not inventing something. Columbus discovered America. Does that mean he invented the continent? Discovering something is FINDING it, not MAKING it.
Not everything is evil and made in a sweat shop.
You arent educating anyone on anything. There will always be bad in the world. Now people abuse others to make computer parts, 2000 years ago they woould use them as slaves, for labour or sex, kill people on a whim, etc... I am not saying things are perfect anywhere on earth, but if you truly believe we arent better off than the villagers of a kingdom 2000 years ago, who could be beheaded because the king felt constipated that day, you are dilusional.
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On September 18 2012 02:41 Sovern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 02:35 ghost_403 wrote:On September 18 2012 02:26 Sovern wrote:On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind. They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run. I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless. All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence. wat. The beauty of science is that everything that happens in the entire universe happens for a reason, according to some finite and knowable set of arbitrary rules. It's a beautiful piece of equipment that runs infinitely and silently. Saying that science is pointless since it's simply based on something incredibly old is missing the point of why we struggle to understand it. Creation is beautiful, and it's a pleasure and a joy to fight every day to understand what it is, and what it says about the God who made it. Besides, pretty much every technological breakthrough of the last century, maybe even ever, is due to pure science. Just imagine where this planet would be without the semiconductor. A scientist discovered that, and it has infinitely improved our existence. Personally I could less about if we had semi conductors or medical equipment or not. Everything is subject to impermanence and in the end does not manner. Even if we had all of the medical equipment in the world that's just showing an aversion to disease or death when in reality we will all face death someday no matter what so why try to create technology to fight it instead of embracing it and not taking the subject to positive or negative but what it truly is at face value.
I don't think I can wrap my head around your point of view. That perspective just sounds so disheartening.
I lost my Mom to breast cancer a year ago. Modern medicine kept her alive for close to four years longer than she would have been otherwise. I'm was fine with having her here. I'm fine now that's she's not. I'm so grateful for having the extra four years in-between the two of those.
That's what modern science has done for me. I can't imagine saying that that's not worth it.
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This is not too surprising imo. Everything we are observing in the larger universe seems to point to some force other than (and possibly in direct opposition to) gravity acting on celestial objects. We've observed this for years and years, we just can't figure it out yet, but advances like this are always a small step forward, which is great.
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On September 18 2012 02:45 Focuspants wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 02:41 Sovern wrote:On September 18 2012 02:35 ghost_403 wrote:On September 18 2012 02:26 Sovern wrote:On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind. They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run. I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless. All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence. wat. The beauty of science is that everything that happens in the entire universe happens for a reason, according to some finite and knowable set of arbitrary rules. It's a beautiful piece of equipment that runs infinitely and silently. Saying that science is pointless since it's simply based on something incredibly old is missing the point of why we struggle to understand it. Creation is beautiful, and it's a pleasure and a joy to fight every day to understand what it is, and what it says about the God who made it. Besides, pretty much every technological breakthrough of the last century, maybe even ever, is due to pure science. Just imagine where this planet would be without the semiconductor. A scientist discovered that, and it has infinitely improved our existence. Personally I could less about if we had semi conductors or medical equipment or not. Everything is subject to impermanence and in the end does not manner. Even if we had all of the medical equipment in the world that's just showing an aversion to disease or death when in reality we will all face death someday no matter what so why try to create technology to fight it instead of embracing it and not taking the subject to positive or negative but what it truly is at face value. What the hell? You do know that species are programmed to survive right? Your attitude would have lead to the extinction of everything. We could go your route and not exist, or we could go the normal route and have record low infant mortailty, record high life expectancy, infinitely better living conditions, etc... Furthermore, following your logic, if trying to put off death is merely ignoring or delaying the certain ending that is death, and is ignorant and pointless, why dont you just kill yourself? Why do you wake up and feed yourself? Why do you drink water? Oh, its because you are biologically programmed to not even believe the bullshit you are saying.
I don't kill myself because there is no point in killing ones self, I live to see more insightful and understand everything for what it truly is, embrace everything that happens and be happy with everything that occurs instead of creating aversion to it. I would like to kill my own ego and that's it.
Also, the species is programmed to survive but that doesnt make it right, far from the truth actually as trying to escape death or prolong death just creates aversion of death and more suffering in the long road as everything is subject to impermanence and everything will eventually die no manner how long you try to prolong it. Also, we wouldnt be extinct with this mindset, we would just be happy where we're at instead of being so afraid of death and tryign to find cures, we woudl accept things for what they are at face value and be happy with it knowing that in the end trying to fight against these things such as illness just creates more suffering.
I drink, eat, and do other things to keep this physical blob of shit body alive that we all have and try to understand things at a deeper level freeing myself from all cravings and everything to live a much more calm, peaceful, and wise life free from suffering and fear.
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On September 18 2012 02:26 Sovern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind. They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run. I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless. All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence.
Idiot of the year right here.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 18 2012 02:49 ghost_403 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 02:41 Sovern wrote:On September 18 2012 02:35 ghost_403 wrote:On September 18 2012 02:26 Sovern wrote:On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind. They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run. I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless. All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence. wat. The beauty of science is that everything that happens in the entire universe happens for a reason, according to some finite and knowable set of arbitrary rules. It's a beautiful piece of equipment that runs infinitely and silently. Saying that science is pointless since it's simply based on something incredibly old is missing the point of why we struggle to understand it. Creation is beautiful, and it's a pleasure and a joy to fight every day to understand what it is, and what it says about the God who made it. Besides, pretty much every technological breakthrough of the last century, maybe even ever, is due to pure science. Just imagine where this planet would be without the semiconductor. A scientist discovered that, and it has infinitely improved our existence. Personally I could less about if we had semi conductors or medical equipment or not. Everything is subject to impermanence and in the end does not manner. Even if we had all of the medical equipment in the world that's just showing an aversion to disease or death when in reality we will all face death someday no matter what so why try to create technology to fight it instead of embracing it and not taking the subject to positive or negative but what it truly is at face value. I don't think I can wrap my head around your point of view. That perspective just sounds so disheartening. I lost my Mom to breast cancer a year ago. Modern medicine kept her alive for close to four years longer than she would have been otherwise. I'm was fine with having her here. I'm fine now that's she's not. I'm so grateful for having the extra four years in-between the two of those. That's what modern science has done for me. I can't imagine saying that that's not worth it.
Well shes gone now isn't she? You cling to the 5 or 6 senses and show this by wanting her around longer. When she passed away I bet you were very sad which is why you wanted to keep her around for an extra 4 years instead of accepting the fact that everyone will die someone and learning to let everything go which by the way, is the only way to true peace & happiness.
Your mother is gone now, those past experiences don't exist and you should understand through that, that everything is impermanent and nothing is worth clinging to including clinging to your mother.
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On September 18 2012 02:58 Sovern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 02:49 ghost_403 wrote:On September 18 2012 02:41 Sovern wrote:On September 18 2012 02:35 ghost_403 wrote:On September 18 2012 02:26 Sovern wrote:On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind. They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run. I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless. All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence. wat. The beauty of science is that everything that happens in the entire universe happens for a reason, according to some finite and knowable set of arbitrary rules. It's a beautiful piece of equipment that runs infinitely and silently. Saying that science is pointless since it's simply based on something incredibly old is missing the point of why we struggle to understand it. Creation is beautiful, and it's a pleasure and a joy to fight every day to understand what it is, and what it says about the God who made it. Besides, pretty much every technological breakthrough of the last century, maybe even ever, is due to pure science. Just imagine where this planet would be without the semiconductor. A scientist discovered that, and it has infinitely improved our existence. Personally I could less about if we had semi conductors or medical equipment or not. Everything is subject to impermanence and in the end does not manner. Even if we had all of the medical equipment in the world that's just showing an aversion to disease or death when in reality we will all face death someday no matter what so why try to create technology to fight it instead of embracing it and not taking the subject to positive or negative but what it truly is at face value. I don't think I can wrap my head around your point of view. That perspective just sounds so disheartening. I lost my Mom to breast cancer a year ago. Modern medicine kept her alive for close to four years longer than she would have been otherwise. I'm was fine with having her here. I'm fine now that's she's not. I'm so grateful for having the extra four years in-between the two of those. That's what modern science has done for me. I can't imagine saying that that's not worth it. Well shes gone now isn't she? You cling to the 5 or 6 senses and show this by wanting her around longer. When she passed away I bet you were very sad which is why you wanted to keep her around for an extra 4 years instead of accepting the fact that everyone will die someone and learning to let everything go which by the way, is the only way to true peace & happiness. Your mother is gone now, those past experiences don't exist and you should understand through that, that everything is impermanent and nothing is worth clinging to including clinging to your mother.
On September 18 2012 02:56 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 02:26 Sovern wrote:On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind. They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run. I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless. All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence. Idiot of the year right here.
I wish you true happiness and freedom from all suffering, all the best.
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On September 18 2012 02:54 Sovern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 02:45 Focuspants wrote:On September 18 2012 02:41 Sovern wrote:On September 18 2012 02:35 ghost_403 wrote:On September 18 2012 02:26 Sovern wrote:On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind. They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run. I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless. All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence. wat. The beauty of science is that everything that happens in the entire universe happens for a reason, according to some finite and knowable set of arbitrary rules. It's a beautiful piece of equipment that runs infinitely and silently. Saying that science is pointless since it's simply based on something incredibly old is missing the point of why we struggle to understand it. Creation is beautiful, and it's a pleasure and a joy to fight every day to understand what it is, and what it says about the God who made it. Besides, pretty much every technological breakthrough of the last century, maybe even ever, is due to pure science. Just imagine where this planet would be without the semiconductor. A scientist discovered that, and it has infinitely improved our existence. Personally I could less about if we had semi conductors or medical equipment or not. Everything is subject to impermanence and in the end does not manner. Even if we had all of the medical equipment in the world that's just showing an aversion to disease or death when in reality we will all face death someday no matter what so why try to create technology to fight it instead of embracing it and not taking the subject to positive or negative but what it truly is at face value. What the hell? You do know that species are programmed to survive right? Your attitude would have lead to the extinction of everything. We could go your route and not exist, or we could go the normal route and have record low infant mortailty, record high life expectancy, infinitely better living conditions, etc... Furthermore, following your logic, if trying to put off death is merely ignoring or delaying the certain ending that is death, and is ignorant and pointless, why dont you just kill yourself? Why do you wake up and feed yourself? Why do you drink water? Oh, its because you are biologically programmed to not even believe the bullshit you are saying. I don't kill myself because there is no point in killing ones self, I live to see more insightful and understand everything for what it truly is, embrace everything that happens and be happy with everything that occurs instead of creating aversion to it. I would like to kill my own ego and that's it. Also, the species is programmed to survive but that doesnt make it right, far from the truth actually as trying to escape death or prolong death just creates aversion of death and more suffering in the long road as everything is subject to impermanence and everything will eventually die no manner how long you try to prolong it. Also, we wouldnt be extinct with this mindset, we would just be happy where we're at instead of being so afraid of death and tryign to find cures, we woudl accept things for what they are at face value and be happy with it knowing that in the end trying to fight against these things such as illness just creates more suffering. I drink, eat, and do other things to keep this physical blob of shit body alive that we all have and try to understand things at a deeper level freeing myself from all cravings and everything to live a much more calm, peaceful, and wise life free from suffering and fear.
So, if I understand you correctly here, you want to live free from suffering, which is pretty reasonable and I think most people would say that if you asked them about it. The difference is, (again if I understand you), you're trying to achieve a life free of suffering by just accepting the things things that cause suffering (say, starvation), while most people (or at least science) are trying (or at least are claiming to try) to actually solve the problems that cause suffering (say, by producing and distributing enough food).
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On September 18 2012 02:58 Sovern wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2012 02:49 ghost_403 wrote:On September 18 2012 02:41 Sovern wrote:On September 18 2012 02:35 ghost_403 wrote:On September 18 2012 02:26 Sovern wrote:On September 17 2012 11:37 sorrowptoss wrote:
What irritates me is that science is, I find, like a giant castle of cards. It's like a superposition of theories. It's like a theory of a theory of a theory of a theory, with inner circles of logic... and that castle of theories is called reality. I find that kind of thinking slightly precarious, especially since most theories are, yes, based on measurements, but those measurements are never, NEVER, 100% free of uncertainty... so we're piling up uncertainty in each theory. So in the end, I think (?) that there will be a point where all theories are so full of inherent uncertainty (because they're on top of a huge chain of theories with uncertainty) that those theories will be just as unrealistic as giant brain-washing alien invadors. And that point, I think, is being reached with 21st century science. I think we, humans, are headed towards a "knowledge ceiling", where we can no longer seek answers by looking out at the sky, through instruments and such, but rather can only find answers by looking inside, within ourselves.
I have no bloody idea how I went from science to philosophy, but yeah. You get my point. I agree with you, one theory leads to another theory which leads to another theory and so on. Science has always bored me because these phenomenon already exist all around us and it's not like scientists are creating anything new when these new theory's or technology's pop up because everything is ALREADY around us haha and in actuality the universe is the reason why they found the theory in the first place if they understand interdependence at all which means nobody should be getting a noble peace prize, the universe should be the one that gets it as it created the person that found the theory that it created which the universe created through the human mind. They're just proving what the universe already knows and they keep going deeper and deeper into the theory's and at a molecular level only to realize that through the human mind you will only be capable of understanding so much through the senses and that the human mind creates all of these things. Without the mind nothing exists. It's sort of like having a bunch of pc games and videos out there waiting to be put together through code and analyzed, they wont and don't exist unless there is a computer to do those things, it's the same way with reality itself too. Humans will continue to follow the illusions of dark matter and whatever else the mind finds and clings to and continue to suffer until we realize that in the end none of this stuff even matters in the long run. I actually dislike science because it's creating more technology's through our own ignorance of reality which causes more greed, delusion, and more people to suffer having to find these theory's (look at foxcon and all of the suicides for an example, wars that have been fought, and meat factory's), come up with the technology's, and work hard to find them to only find that the reason why they are searching for the theory's and are greedy is because they are a a slave to their own mind and cant fight against the stream to see through the illusions and get rid of the liking & disliking of the 5 senses and see that all of these discoveries in the end do not manner at all, they're pointless. All of these technology's are creating a more materialistic world which will only cause more problems, this is the reason why I laugh when people make a big deal when they think that discovering such a theory is such an amazing thing, when in reality it's just plain silly and in the end just caused suffering and is pointless and in fact no one person discovered anything due to interdependence. wat. The beauty of science is that everything that happens in the entire universe happens for a reason, according to some finite and knowable set of arbitrary rules. It's a beautiful piece of equipment that runs infinitely and silently. Saying that science is pointless since it's simply based on something incredibly old is missing the point of why we struggle to understand it. Creation is beautiful, and it's a pleasure and a joy to fight every day to understand what it is, and what it says about the God who made it. Besides, pretty much every technological breakthrough of the last century, maybe even ever, is due to pure science. Just imagine where this planet would be without the semiconductor. A scientist discovered that, and it has infinitely improved our existence. Personally I could less about if we had semi conductors or medical equipment or not. Everything is subject to impermanence and in the end does not manner. Even if we had all of the medical equipment in the world that's just showing an aversion to disease or death when in reality we will all face death someday no matter what so why try to create technology to fight it instead of embracing it and not taking the subject to positive or negative but what it truly is at face value. I don't think I can wrap my head around your point of view. That perspective just sounds so disheartening. I lost my Mom to breast cancer a year ago. Modern medicine kept her alive for close to four years longer than she would have been otherwise. I'm was fine with having her here. I'm fine now that's she's not. I'm so grateful for having the extra four years in-between the two of those. That's what modern science has done for me. I can't imagine saying that that's not worth it. Well shes gone now isn't she? You cling to the 5 or 6 senses and show this by wanting her around longer. When she passed away I bet you were very sad which is why you wanted to keep her around for an extra 4 years instead of accepting the fact that everyone will die someone and learning to let everything go which by the way, is the only way to true peace & happiness. Your mother is gone now, those past experiences don't exist and you should understand through that, that everything is impermanent and nothing is worth clinging to including clinging to your mother.
But it still gave him some extra years with her, how dense are you?
EDIT: the response you gave to my post about you being an idiot; than you for proving my point.
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Obvious troll is obvious.
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EPT
