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On September 17 2012 06:23 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 06:16 reincremate wrote:On September 17 2012 06:15 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 06:12 reincremate wrote:On September 16 2012 05:57 Nanikure wrote:
This nationalism shit is honestly getting on my fucking nerves. They flip your car over or something? Most people who don't like Nationism, are into this "citizens of the world" movement. They think all humans can be unified together under one set of rules, values, and law. They are sorely mistaken, but they mean well. Care to explain how they are mistaken? Short version: Darwin island birds Longer version: Have and havenots- who gets to be who? What are you going to do when neither side will negociate on things? Jews/Muslims Conservatives/Liberals Socialist/Liberterians/Capitalist My land or your land Your values or mine Your laws or mine Conflict is built into our genes. We are competive. When we don't get our way, we find like minded people till we have a majority of power and push our will onto others. This is refered to as "The Human Condition"
Thanks for the profound philosophical insight, but it is actually the case that we are genetically predisposed to want to sit around and do as little as possible, according to my unlisted but nonetheless extremely reliable sources (as well as my own impeccable understanding of the human condition). That's why McDonald's and Blizzard (e.g., SC2) are so successful. Nationalism is thus fundamentally flawed from a scientific and philosophical perspective.
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On September 17 2012 07:49 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 07:40 Xiphos wrote:On September 17 2012 07:37 Denzil wrote:
this china protesting against japan shit is getting ridiculous
what is china so mad about? Read the OP or don't post at all because you are not providing any contribution beside ignorance. the OP is telling me nothing other than china is mad on a large scale Kwarks post tells me that china is pissed off because of japan's conduct in world war 2 therefore, what is china so mad about? i dont get pissed off at the germans for killing my grandfather in WW2
If the Germans forced millions of Britons into slave labor I think you'd feel differently.
What do you think the Anti-German sentiment in Israel or among the Jewish community is like? Thats with all the concessions that Germany has made following WW2.
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On September 17 2012 04:29 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 04:17 Robinsa wrote:On September 16 2012 06:47 Zahir wrote:
I think Japan should turn the islands over as a gesture of goodwill. They havent done one nice thing for china diplomatically since the end of ww2. And the islands are geographically closer to taiwan than Japan. Japan also signed a treaty saying it would release most of the territory gained in ww2. So I think china has a decent claim, and Japan could go a long way towards mending relations by relinquishing its claim.
I also think handing it over to taiwan would be a brilliant, although politically ruinous, troll move. Exept the massive development aid that China has recived for 30 years. Its billions of dollars that they have recived. Funny thing is that most Chinese people doesnt even have a clue about it.. I thought that wasn't aid but rather war reparations for the fact that Japan leveled much of China to the ground amongst other things. Even then, I don't think those payments were sincere in the fact that if they weren't forced to make them then they wouldn't have. That combined with all the double-speak from parts of the political leadership of Japan in downplaying Japanese warcrimes, it makes sense that Chinese/Korean people don't think it's enough.
Most of the people that commited those crimes are dead. The people whos buisnesses are getting destroyed most likely have nothing to do with it but their view of the Chinese is going to be affected. On top of that, China doesnt really have a perfect track record with its neighours. They have disputes with almost everyone (Russia, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, India, Vietnam, The Philippines.. the list goes on..) and without US involvement I doubt anyone would be able to hold them back.
The money China has recived from Japan is not war reparations but development aid. http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/EASTASIAPACIFICEXT/JAPANEXTN/0,,contentMDK:20647244~menuPK:1685924~pagePK:1497618~piPK:217854~theSitePK:273812,00.html
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On September 17 2012 07:55 calderon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 07:49 Denzil wrote:On September 17 2012 07:40 Xiphos wrote:On September 17 2012 07:37 Denzil wrote:
this china protesting against japan shit is getting ridiculous
what is china so mad about? Read the OP or don't post at all because you are not providing any contribution beside ignorance. the OP is telling me nothing other than china is mad on a large scale Kwarks post tells me that china is pissed off because of japan's conduct in world war 2 therefore, what is china so mad about? i dont get pissed off at the germans for killing my grandfather in WW2 If the Germans forced millions of Britons into slave labor I think you'd feel differently. What do you think the Anti-German sentiment in Israel or among the Jewish community is like? Thats with all the concessions that Germany has made following WW2.
Jews harbouring irrational hatred towards Germans doesn't justify Chinese harbouring irrational hatred towards Japanese. There's a difference between expressing outrage at historical injustices and xenophobia. The most important difference I think is that serious discussion genocide and war and all that good shit isn't really funny, whereas xenophobia is potentially hilarious ("the leaders and mass killing apparatus of some politically unified land mass have decided that some large chunks of rock surrounded by water belong to them by virtue of arbitrary rules of possession?" *destroys car made by multinational corporation originating from aforementioned land mass but belonging to some completely unrelated person*).
Maybe it's not that humourous when articulated as poorly as the way I just did, but you have to admit that there is at least some element of humour in absurd situations such as these.
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Reddit's finally picked up on the story.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GMDSh.png)
A man in Xi'an holds a sign that reads CAR SMASHINGS AHEAD, JAPANESE CAR OWNERS SHOULD TURN BACK NOW
At least not everyone is a violent Xenophobe. I hope this is like the Vancouver hockey riots where most people look down on the rioters. I hope most people actually want peace.
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On September 17 2012 08:05 reincremate wrote:
Jews harbouring irrational hatred towards Germans doesn't justify Chinese harbouring irrational hatred towards Japanese.
Irrational? I take it you have never watched Chinese television, have you? It's so easy to judge other people when you're streets behind (or in this case thousands of miles away).
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On September 17 2012 07:59 Robinsa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 04:29 Taku wrote:On September 17 2012 04:17 Robinsa wrote:On September 16 2012 06:47 Zahir wrote:
I think Japan should turn the islands over as a gesture of goodwill. They havent done one nice thing for china diplomatically since the end of ww2. And the islands are geographically closer to taiwan than Japan. Japan also signed a treaty saying it would release most of the territory gained in ww2. So I think china has a decent claim, and Japan could go a long way towards mending relations by relinquishing its claim.
I also think handing it over to taiwan would be a brilliant, although politically ruinous, troll move. Exept the massive development aid that China has recived for 30 years. Its billions of dollars that they have recived. Funny thing is that most Chinese people doesnt even have a clue about it.. I thought that wasn't aid but rather war reparations for the fact that Japan leveled much of China to the ground amongst other things. Even then, I don't think those payments were sincere in the fact that if they weren't forced to make them then they wouldn't have. That combined with all the double-speak from parts of the political leadership of Japan in downplaying Japanese warcrimes, it makes sense that Chinese/Korean people don't think it's enough. Most of the people that commited those crimes are dead. The people whos buisnesses are getting destroyed most likely have nothing to do with it but their view of the Chinese is going to be affected. On top of that, China doesnt really have a perfect track record with its neighours. They have disputes with almost everyone (Russia, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, India, Vietnam, The Philippines.. the list goes on..) and without US involvement I doubt anyone would be able to hold them back. The money China has recived from Japan is not war reparations but development aid. http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/EASTASIAPACIFICEXT/JAPANEXTN/0,,contentMDK:20647244~menuPK:1685924~pagePK:1497618~piPK:217854~theSitePK:273812,00.html.
Most of the war criminals are dead, but you're still reaping the fruits of their barbarism. The fact that what we call "progress" (e.g., economic/technological progress) is only possible because of oppression, mass killing, exploitation, etc. holds true for every nation in the world, but in Japan it's particularly pronounced because the country's post-war economic prosperity is predicated upon millions of deaths and billions of dollars worth of damage that was caused by Japan less than 70 years ago, but which no one is being held accountable for thanks in large part to US global hegemony. The fact that the CCP is evil doesn't change the fact that the Japanese government or the US government are evil (two or two thousand wrongs don't make a right). That being said it's not necessarily a reason for anyone to be getting their panties and Subarus in a knot.
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On September 17 2012 08:19 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 07:59 Robinsa wrote:On September 17 2012 04:29 Taku wrote:On September 17 2012 04:17 Robinsa wrote:On September 16 2012 06:47 Zahir wrote:
I think Japan should turn the islands over as a gesture of goodwill. They havent done one nice thing for china diplomatically since the end of ww2. And the islands are geographically closer to taiwan than Japan. Japan also signed a treaty saying it would release most of the territory gained in ww2. So I think china has a decent claim, and Japan could go a long way towards mending relations by relinquishing its claim.
I also think handing it over to taiwan would be a brilliant, although politically ruinous, troll move. Exept the massive development aid that China has recived for 30 years. Its billions of dollars that they have recived. Funny thing is that most Chinese people doesnt even have a clue about it.. I thought that wasn't aid but rather war reparations for the fact that Japan leveled much of China to the ground amongst other things. Even then, I don't think those payments were sincere in the fact that if they weren't forced to make them then they wouldn't have. That combined with all the double-speak from parts of the political leadership of Japan in downplaying Japanese warcrimes, it makes sense that Chinese/Korean people don't think it's enough. Most of the people that commited those crimes are dead. The people whos buisnesses are getting destroyed most likely have nothing to do with it but their view of the Chinese is going to be affected. On top of that, China doesnt really have a perfect track record with its neighours. They have disputes with almost everyone (Russia, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, India, Vietnam, The Philippines.. the list goes on..) and without US involvement I doubt anyone would be able to hold them back. The money China has recived from Japan is not war reparations but development aid. http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/EASTASIAPACIFICEXT/JAPANEXTN/0,,contentMDK:20647244~menuPK:1685924~pagePK:1497618~piPK:217854~theSitePK:273812,00.html. Most of the war criminals are dead, but you're still reaping the fruits of their barbarism. The fact that what we call "progress" (e.g., economic/technological progress) is only possible because of oppression, mass killing, exploitation, etc. holds true for every nation in the world, but in Japan it's particularly pronounced because the country's post-war economic prosperity is predicated upon millions of deaths and billions of dollars worth of damage that was caused by Japan less than 70 years ago, but which no one is being held accountable for thanks in large part to US global hegemony. The fact that the CCP is evil doesn't change the fact that the Japanese government or the US government are evil (two or two thousand wrongs don't make a right). That being said it's not necessarily a reason for anyone to be getting their panties and Subarus in a knot.
Actually, that's mostly bullshit. Japan's postwar economic prosperity had tons to do with 30+ years of economic aid and preferential trade access from the United States and much, much less to do with any gains it wrought out of its 12 year occupation of China.
On a net basis, Japan's decision to wage war on the rest of Asia was unprofitable. On a per capita basis, Japan suffered huge losses--easily comparable to what China suffered, and definitely greater when you factor in how much sheer property US firebombing did the Japanese home islands.
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On September 17 2012 08:40 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 08:19 reincremate wrote:On September 17 2012 07:59 Robinsa wrote:On September 17 2012 04:29 Taku wrote:On September 17 2012 04:17 Robinsa wrote:On September 16 2012 06:47 Zahir wrote:
I think Japan should turn the islands over as a gesture of goodwill. They havent done one nice thing for china diplomatically since the end of ww2. And the islands are geographically closer to taiwan than Japan. Japan also signed a treaty saying it would release most of the territory gained in ww2. So I think china has a decent claim, and Japan could go a long way towards mending relations by relinquishing its claim.
I also think handing it over to taiwan would be a brilliant, although politically ruinous, troll move. Exept the massive development aid that China has recived for 30 years. Its billions of dollars that they have recived. Funny thing is that most Chinese people doesnt even have a clue about it.. I thought that wasn't aid but rather war reparations for the fact that Japan leveled much of China to the ground amongst other things. Even then, I don't think those payments were sincere in the fact that if they weren't forced to make them then they wouldn't have. That combined with all the double-speak from parts of the political leadership of Japan in downplaying Japanese warcrimes, it makes sense that Chinese/Korean people don't think it's enough. Most of the people that commited those crimes are dead. The people whos buisnesses are getting destroyed most likely have nothing to do with it but their view of the Chinese is going to be affected. On top of that, China doesnt really have a perfect track record with its neighours. They have disputes with almost everyone (Russia, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, India, Vietnam, The Philippines.. the list goes on..) and without US involvement I doubt anyone would be able to hold them back. The money China has recived from Japan is not war reparations but development aid. http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/EASTASIAPACIFICEXT/JAPANEXTN/0,,contentMDK:20647244~menuPK:1685924~pagePK:1497618~piPK:217854~theSitePK:273812,00.html. Most of the war criminals are dead, but you're still reaping the fruits of their barbarism. The fact that what we call "progress" (e.g., economic/technological progress) is only possible because of oppression, mass killing, exploitation, etc. holds true for every nation in the world, but in Japan it's particularly pronounced because the country's post-war economic prosperity is predicated upon millions of deaths and billions of dollars worth of damage that was caused by Japan less than 70 years ago, but which no one is being held accountable for thanks in large part to US global hegemony. The fact that the CCP is evil doesn't change the fact that the Japanese government or the US government are evil (two or two thousand wrongs don't make a right). That being said it's not necessarily a reason for anyone to be getting their panties and Subarus in a knot. Actually, that's mostly bullshit. Japan's postwar economic prosperity had tons to do with 30+ years of economic aid and preferential trade access from the United States and much, much less to do with any gains it wrought out of its 12 year occupation of China. On a net basis, Japan's decision to wage war on the rest of Asia was unprofitable. On a per capita basis, Japan suffered huge losses--easily comparable to what China suffered, and definitely greater when you factor in how much sheer property US firebombing did the Japanese home islands.
That's my point. They lost WWII, became the US's bitch and therefore didn't have to pay a penny in reparations to the countries they invaded.
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On September 17 2012 08:42 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 08:40 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 08:19 reincremate wrote:On September 17 2012 07:59 Robinsa wrote:On September 17 2012 04:29 Taku wrote:On September 17 2012 04:17 Robinsa wrote:On September 16 2012 06:47 Zahir wrote:
I think Japan should turn the islands over as a gesture of goodwill. They havent done one nice thing for china diplomatically since the end of ww2. And the islands are geographically closer to taiwan than Japan. Japan also signed a treaty saying it would release most of the territory gained in ww2. So I think china has a decent claim, and Japan could go a long way towards mending relations by relinquishing its claim.
I also think handing it over to taiwan would be a brilliant, although politically ruinous, troll move. Exept the massive development aid that China has recived for 30 years. Its billions of dollars that they have recived. Funny thing is that most Chinese people doesnt even have a clue about it.. I thought that wasn't aid but rather war reparations for the fact that Japan leveled much of China to the ground amongst other things. Even then, I don't think those payments were sincere in the fact that if they weren't forced to make them then they wouldn't have. That combined with all the double-speak from parts of the political leadership of Japan in downplaying Japanese warcrimes, it makes sense that Chinese/Korean people don't think it's enough. Most of the people that commited those crimes are dead. The people whos buisnesses are getting destroyed most likely have nothing to do with it but their view of the Chinese is going to be affected. On top of that, China doesnt really have a perfect track record with its neighours. They have disputes with almost everyone (Russia, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, India, Vietnam, The Philippines.. the list goes on..) and without US involvement I doubt anyone would be able to hold them back. The money China has recived from Japan is not war reparations but development aid. http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/EASTASIAPACIFICEXT/JAPANEXTN/0,,contentMDK:20647244~menuPK:1685924~pagePK:1497618~piPK:217854~theSitePK:273812,00.html. Most of the war criminals are dead, but you're still reaping the fruits of their barbarism. The fact that what we call "progress" (e.g., economic/technological progress) is only possible because of oppression, mass killing, exploitation, etc. holds true for every nation in the world, but in Japan it's particularly pronounced because the country's post-war economic prosperity is predicated upon millions of deaths and billions of dollars worth of damage that was caused by Japan less than 70 years ago, but which no one is being held accountable for thanks in large part to US global hegemony. The fact that the CCP is evil doesn't change the fact that the Japanese government or the US government are evil (two or two thousand wrongs don't make a right). That being said it's not necessarily a reason for anyone to be getting their panties and Subarus in a knot. Actually, that's mostly bullshit. Japan's postwar economic prosperity had tons to do with 30+ years of economic aid and preferential trade access from the United States and much, much less to do with any gains it wrought out of its 12 year occupation of China. On a net basis, Japan's decision to wage war on the rest of Asia was unprofitable. On a per capita basis, Japan suffered huge losses--easily comparable to what China suffered, and definitely greater when you factor in how much sheer property US firebombing did the Japanese home islands. That's my point. They lost WWII, became the US's bitch and therefore didn't have to pay a penny in reparations to the countries they invaded.
You do realize that had the KMT retained mainland China, China would be the one who won off US aggregate demand? It wasn't Japan's defeat that made the US want to rebuild Japan. It was actually the CCP victory.
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On September 17 2012 08:44 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 08:42 reincremate wrote:On September 17 2012 08:40 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 08:19 reincremate wrote:On September 17 2012 07:59 Robinsa wrote:On September 17 2012 04:29 Taku wrote:On September 17 2012 04:17 Robinsa wrote:On September 16 2012 06:47 Zahir wrote:
I think Japan should turn the islands over as a gesture of goodwill. They havent done one nice thing for china diplomatically since the end of ww2. And the islands are geographically closer to taiwan than Japan. Japan also signed a treaty saying it would release most of the territory gained in ww2. So I think china has a decent claim, and Japan could go a long way towards mending relations by relinquishing its claim.
I also think handing it over to taiwan would be a brilliant, although politically ruinous, troll move. Exept the massive development aid that China has recived for 30 years. Its billions of dollars that they have recived. Funny thing is that most Chinese people doesnt even have a clue about it.. I thought that wasn't aid but rather war reparations for the fact that Japan leveled much of China to the ground amongst other things. Even then, I don't think those payments were sincere in the fact that if they weren't forced to make them then they wouldn't have. That combined with all the double-speak from parts of the political leadership of Japan in downplaying Japanese warcrimes, it makes sense that Chinese/Korean people don't think it's enough. Most of the people that commited those crimes are dead. The people whos buisnesses are getting destroyed most likely have nothing to do with it but their view of the Chinese is going to be affected. On top of that, China doesnt really have a perfect track record with its neighours. They have disputes with almost everyone (Russia, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, India, Vietnam, The Philippines.. the list goes on..) and without US involvement I doubt anyone would be able to hold them back. The money China has recived from Japan is not war reparations but development aid. http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/EASTASIAPACIFICEXT/JAPANEXTN/0,,contentMDK:20647244~menuPK:1685924~pagePK:1497618~piPK:217854~theSitePK:273812,00.html. Most of the war criminals are dead, but you're still reaping the fruits of their barbarism. The fact that what we call "progress" (e.g., economic/technological progress) is only possible because of oppression, mass killing, exploitation, etc. holds true for every nation in the world, but in Japan it's particularly pronounced because the country's post-war economic prosperity is predicated upon millions of deaths and billions of dollars worth of damage that was caused by Japan less than 70 years ago, but which no one is being held accountable for thanks in large part to US global hegemony. The fact that the CCP is evil doesn't change the fact that the Japanese government or the US government are evil (two or two thousand wrongs don't make a right). That being said it's not necessarily a reason for anyone to be getting their panties and Subarus in a knot. Actually, that's mostly bullshit. Japan's postwar economic prosperity had tons to do with 30+ years of economic aid and preferential trade access from the United States and much, much less to do with any gains it wrought out of its 12 year occupation of China. On a net basis, Japan's decision to wage war on the rest of Asia was unprofitable. On a per capita basis, Japan suffered huge losses--easily comparable to what China suffered, and definitely greater when you factor in how much sheer property US firebombing did the Japanese home islands. That's my point. They lost WWII, became the US's bitch and therefore didn't have to pay a penny in reparations to the countries they invaded. You do realize that had the KMT retained mainland China, China would be the one who won off US aggregate demand? It wasn't Japan's defeat that made the US want to rebuild Japan. It was actually the CCP victory.
Japan would be an asset to the US regardless of what happened in China due to Japan's proximity to the USSR.
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On September 17 2012 08:42 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 08:40 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 08:19 reincremate wrote:On September 17 2012 07:59 Robinsa wrote:On September 17 2012 04:29 Taku wrote:On September 17 2012 04:17 Robinsa wrote:On September 16 2012 06:47 Zahir wrote:
I think Japan should turn the islands over as a gesture of goodwill. They havent done one nice thing for china diplomatically since the end of ww2. And the islands are geographically closer to taiwan than Japan. Japan also signed a treaty saying it would release most of the territory gained in ww2. So I think china has a decent claim, and Japan could go a long way towards mending relations by relinquishing its claim.
I also think handing it over to taiwan would be a brilliant, although politically ruinous, troll move. Exept the massive development aid that China has recived for 30 years. Its billions of dollars that they have recived. Funny thing is that most Chinese people doesnt even have a clue about it.. I thought that wasn't aid but rather war reparations for the fact that Japan leveled much of China to the ground amongst other things. Even then, I don't think those payments were sincere in the fact that if they weren't forced to make them then they wouldn't have. That combined with all the double-speak from parts of the political leadership of Japan in downplaying Japanese warcrimes, it makes sense that Chinese/Korean people don't think it's enough. Most of the people that commited those crimes are dead. The people whos buisnesses are getting destroyed most likely have nothing to do with it but their view of the Chinese is going to be affected. On top of that, China doesnt really have a perfect track record with its neighours. They have disputes with almost everyone (Russia, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, India, Vietnam, The Philippines.. the list goes on..) and without US involvement I doubt anyone would be able to hold them back. The money China has recived from Japan is not war reparations but development aid. http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/EASTASIAPACIFICEXT/JAPANEXTN/0,,contentMDK:20647244~menuPK:1685924~pagePK:1497618~piPK:217854~theSitePK:273812,00.html. Most of the war criminals are dead, but you're still reaping the fruits of their barbarism. The fact that what we call "progress" (e.g., economic/technological progress) is only possible because of oppression, mass killing, exploitation, etc. holds true for every nation in the world, but in Japan it's particularly pronounced because the country's post-war economic prosperity is predicated upon millions of deaths and billions of dollars worth of damage that was caused by Japan less than 70 years ago, but which no one is being held accountable for thanks in large part to US global hegemony. The fact that the CCP is evil doesn't change the fact that the Japanese government or the US government are evil (two or two thousand wrongs don't make a right). That being said it's not necessarily a reason for anyone to be getting their panties and Subarus in a knot. Actually, that's mostly bullshit. Japan's postwar economic prosperity had tons to do with 30+ years of economic aid and preferential trade access from the United States and much, much less to do with any gains it wrought out of its 12 year occupation of China. On a net basis, Japan's decision to wage war on the rest of Asia was unprofitable. On a per capita basis, Japan suffered huge losses--easily comparable to what China suffered, and definitely greater when you factor in how much sheer property US firebombing did the Japanese home islands. That's my point. They lost WWII, became the US's bitch and therefore didn't have to pay a penny in reparations to the countries they invaded.
you understand this yet you still can't see why people are upset about this
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On September 17 2012 08:47 calderon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 08:42 reincremate wrote:On September 17 2012 08:40 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 08:19 reincremate wrote:On September 17 2012 07:59 Robinsa wrote:On September 17 2012 04:29 Taku wrote:On September 17 2012 04:17 Robinsa wrote:On September 16 2012 06:47 Zahir wrote:
I think Japan should turn the islands over as a gesture of goodwill. They havent done one nice thing for china diplomatically since the end of ww2. And the islands are geographically closer to taiwan than Japan. Japan also signed a treaty saying it would release most of the territory gained in ww2. So I think china has a decent claim, and Japan could go a long way towards mending relations by relinquishing its claim.
I also think handing it over to taiwan would be a brilliant, although politically ruinous, troll move. Exept the massive development aid that China has recived for 30 years. Its billions of dollars that they have recived. Funny thing is that most Chinese people doesnt even have a clue about it.. I thought that wasn't aid but rather war reparations for the fact that Japan leveled much of China to the ground amongst other things. Even then, I don't think those payments were sincere in the fact that if they weren't forced to make them then they wouldn't have. That combined with all the double-speak from parts of the political leadership of Japan in downplaying Japanese warcrimes, it makes sense that Chinese/Korean people don't think it's enough. Most of the people that commited those crimes are dead. The people whos buisnesses are getting destroyed most likely have nothing to do with it but their view of the Chinese is going to be affected. On top of that, China doesnt really have a perfect track record with its neighours. They have disputes with almost everyone (Russia, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, India, Vietnam, The Philippines.. the list goes on..) and without US involvement I doubt anyone would be able to hold them back. The money China has recived from Japan is not war reparations but development aid. http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/EASTASIAPACIFICEXT/JAPANEXTN/0,,contentMDK:20647244~menuPK:1685924~pagePK:1497618~piPK:217854~theSitePK:273812,00.html. Most of the war criminals are dead, but you're still reaping the fruits of their barbarism. The fact that what we call "progress" (e.g., economic/technological progress) is only possible because of oppression, mass killing, exploitation, etc. holds true for every nation in the world, but in Japan it's particularly pronounced because the country's post-war economic prosperity is predicated upon millions of deaths and billions of dollars worth of damage that was caused by Japan less than 70 years ago, but which no one is being held accountable for thanks in large part to US global hegemony. The fact that the CCP is evil doesn't change the fact that the Japanese government or the US government are evil (two or two thousand wrongs don't make a right). That being said it's not necessarily a reason for anyone to be getting their panties and Subarus in a knot. Actually, that's mostly bullshit. Japan's postwar economic prosperity had tons to do with 30+ years of economic aid and preferential trade access from the United States and much, much less to do with any gains it wrought out of its 12 year occupation of China. On a net basis, Japan's decision to wage war on the rest of Asia was unprofitable. On a per capita basis, Japan suffered huge losses--easily comparable to what China suffered, and definitely greater when you factor in how much sheer property US firebombing did the Japanese home islands. That's my point. They lost WWII, became the US's bitch and therefore didn't have to pay a penny in reparations to the countries they invaded. you understand this yet you still can't see why people are upset about this
I can see why they are. But I don't see how causing petty property damage to uninvolved third parties changes anything.
People's anger at social issues seems to stem more from a desire to be part of a group and to win than to get the wheels of justice turning or something else noble-sounding.
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On September 17 2012 08:46 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 08:44 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 08:42 reincremate wrote:On September 17 2012 08:40 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 08:19 reincremate wrote:On September 17 2012 07:59 Robinsa wrote:On September 17 2012 04:29 Taku wrote:On September 17 2012 04:17 Robinsa wrote:On September 16 2012 06:47 Zahir wrote:
I think Japan should turn the islands over as a gesture of goodwill. They havent done one nice thing for china diplomatically since the end of ww2. And the islands are geographically closer to taiwan than Japan. Japan also signed a treaty saying it would release most of the territory gained in ww2. So I think china has a decent claim, and Japan could go a long way towards mending relations by relinquishing its claim.
I also think handing it over to taiwan would be a brilliant, although politically ruinous, troll move. Exept the massive development aid that China has recived for 30 years. Its billions of dollars that they have recived. Funny thing is that most Chinese people doesnt even have a clue about it.. I thought that wasn't aid but rather war reparations for the fact that Japan leveled much of China to the ground amongst other things. Even then, I don't think those payments were sincere in the fact that if they weren't forced to make them then they wouldn't have. That combined with all the double-speak from parts of the political leadership of Japan in downplaying Japanese warcrimes, it makes sense that Chinese/Korean people don't think it's enough. Most of the people that commited those crimes are dead. The people whos buisnesses are getting destroyed most likely have nothing to do with it but their view of the Chinese is going to be affected. On top of that, China doesnt really have a perfect track record with its neighours. They have disputes with almost everyone (Russia, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, India, Vietnam, The Philippines.. the list goes on..) and without US involvement I doubt anyone would be able to hold them back. The money China has recived from Japan is not war reparations but development aid. http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/EASTASIAPACIFICEXT/JAPANEXTN/0,,contentMDK:20647244~menuPK:1685924~pagePK:1497618~piPK:217854~theSitePK:273812,00.html. Most of the war criminals are dead, but you're still reaping the fruits of their barbarism. The fact that what we call "progress" (e.g., economic/technological progress) is only possible because of oppression, mass killing, exploitation, etc. holds true for every nation in the world, but in Japan it's particularly pronounced because the country's post-war economic prosperity is predicated upon millions of deaths and billions of dollars worth of damage that was caused by Japan less than 70 years ago, but which no one is being held accountable for thanks in large part to US global hegemony. The fact that the CCP is evil doesn't change the fact that the Japanese government or the US government are evil (two or two thousand wrongs don't make a right). That being said it's not necessarily a reason for anyone to be getting their panties and Subarus in a knot. Actually, that's mostly bullshit. Japan's postwar economic prosperity had tons to do with 30+ years of economic aid and preferential trade access from the United States and much, much less to do with any gains it wrought out of its 12 year occupation of China. On a net basis, Japan's decision to wage war on the rest of Asia was unprofitable. On a per capita basis, Japan suffered huge losses--easily comparable to what China suffered, and definitely greater when you factor in how much sheer property US firebombing did the Japanese home islands. That's my point. They lost WWII, became the US's bitch and therefore didn't have to pay a penny in reparations to the countries they invaded. You do realize that had the KMT retained mainland China, China would be the one who won off US aggregate demand? It wasn't Japan's defeat that made the US want to rebuild Japan. It was actually the CCP victory. Japan would be an asset to the US regardless of what happened in China due to Japan's proximity to the USSR.
Actually, not really. From 1945-1948, US foreign policy towards Asia was determined by a troupe of extremely pro-China policymakers, led by Henry Luce. Henry Luce hated Japan for his entire life (even before Pearl Harbor.) Henry and the rest of the State team lost favor because they were accused of "losing China" after 1949. If the CCP had not taken over the mainland, US aid to Japan would have never started.
Indeed, while 1949 ended aid to China; aid to Japan didn't start until after the Korean War, when the US realized that they had a huge strategic problem in trying to keep the foothold of South Korea in Asia, but keeping their logistical warehouses (ammo, food, fuel) and men in South Korea facing millions of PLA and Soviets would be suicidal; hence they needed to build up Japan.
This is why the Japanese economic miracle didn't start until 1954-55.
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On September 17 2012 08:52 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 08:47 calderon wrote:On September 17 2012 08:42 reincremate wrote:On September 17 2012 08:40 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 08:19 reincremate wrote:On September 17 2012 07:59 Robinsa wrote:On September 17 2012 04:29 Taku wrote:On September 17 2012 04:17 Robinsa wrote:On September 16 2012 06:47 Zahir wrote:
I think Japan should turn the islands over as a gesture of goodwill. They havent done one nice thing for china diplomatically since the end of ww2. And the islands are geographically closer to taiwan than Japan. Japan also signed a treaty saying it would release most of the territory gained in ww2. So I think china has a decent claim, and Japan could go a long way towards mending relations by relinquishing its claim.
I also think handing it over to taiwan would be a brilliant, although politically ruinous, troll move. Exept the massive development aid that China has recived for 30 years. Its billions of dollars that they have recived. Funny thing is that most Chinese people doesnt even have a clue about it.. I thought that wasn't aid but rather war reparations for the fact that Japan leveled much of China to the ground amongst other things. Even then, I don't think those payments were sincere in the fact that if they weren't forced to make them then they wouldn't have. That combined with all the double-speak from parts of the political leadership of Japan in downplaying Japanese warcrimes, it makes sense that Chinese/Korean people don't think it's enough. Most of the people that commited those crimes are dead. The people whos buisnesses are getting destroyed most likely have nothing to do with it but their view of the Chinese is going to be affected. On top of that, China doesnt really have a perfect track record with its neighours. They have disputes with almost everyone (Russia, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, India, Vietnam, The Philippines.. the list goes on..) and without US involvement I doubt anyone would be able to hold them back. The money China has recived from Japan is not war reparations but development aid. http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/EASTASIAPACIFICEXT/JAPANEXTN/0,,contentMDK:20647244~menuPK:1685924~pagePK:1497618~piPK:217854~theSitePK:273812,00.html. Most of the war criminals are dead, but you're still reaping the fruits of their barbarism. The fact that what we call "progress" (e.g., economic/technological progress) is only possible because of oppression, mass killing, exploitation, etc. holds true for every nation in the world, but in Japan it's particularly pronounced because the country's post-war economic prosperity is predicated upon millions of deaths and billions of dollars worth of damage that was caused by Japan less than 70 years ago, but which no one is being held accountable for thanks in large part to US global hegemony. The fact that the CCP is evil doesn't change the fact that the Japanese government or the US government are evil (two or two thousand wrongs don't make a right). That being said it's not necessarily a reason for anyone to be getting their panties and Subarus in a knot. Actually, that's mostly bullshit. Japan's postwar economic prosperity had tons to do with 30+ years of economic aid and preferential trade access from the United States and much, much less to do with any gains it wrought out of its 12 year occupation of China. On a net basis, Japan's decision to wage war on the rest of Asia was unprofitable. On a per capita basis, Japan suffered huge losses--easily comparable to what China suffered, and definitely greater when you factor in how much sheer property US firebombing did the Japanese home islands. That's my point. They lost WWII, became the US's bitch and therefore didn't have to pay a penny in reparations to the countries they invaded. you understand this yet you still can't see why people are upset about this I can see why they are. But I don't see how causing petty property damage to uninvolved third parties changes anything. People's anger at social issues seems to stem more from a desire to be part of a group and to win than to get the wheels of justice turning or something else noble-sounding.
You nailed it, there is a general sense of frustration to do with a number of issues (corruption, changing of power in government etc..) and this is one issue that people know that they can be united on and not 'struck down' by the government. The CCP are happy to let this continue as these riots/protests are allowing them to let off steam without damaging their own interests.
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The mainland (now called China, but also mongolia and Korea) has been trying to invade Japan for like thousands of years.
This is probably the oldest rivalry/hate train on planet earth (300BC at the most recent we even know of). With more or less Japan defending the entire time. WWII they get to push back, and literally thousands of years of revenge was taking place as the Japanese did some of the most heinous acts such as force fathers to rape daughters.
Thats what China is so pissed off about and yeah its an old story. Japan will tell you "they started it first" and then they would be right as well.
So its pretty much as KwarK said. There is really no stopping this hate train. For so very long Japan hated the entire world around it because of all of the threats to invade. Which is why up until 100 or so years ago they completely closed themselves off to the world.
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On September 17 2012 08:14 zdfgucker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 08:05 reincremate wrote:
Jews harbouring irrational hatred towards Germans doesn't justify Chinese harbouring irrational hatred towards Japanese. Irrational? I take it you have never watched Chinese television, have you? It's so easy to judge other people when you're streets behind (or in this case thousands of miles away).
As a Chinese, I can tell you a lot of the hatred against the Japanese is indeed irrational.
Case in point: this dispute over islands is essentially a contest of political power and resource struggle between Japan and China. It doesn't have anything to do with Japan's past crimes. In turn, much of these past crimes does not personally affect any of the Chinese out there capitulating to mob mentality, jumping on the bandwagon to smash cars and spew hate. Every time there is the smallest inkling that something Japan does is a slight to China, it is automatically tacked on to the huge laundry list of insults real and perceived that Japan has heaved upon China.
Has Japan done terrible things to China? Yes. Should they apologize? Absolutely. But this current situation doesn't actually have to do with any of that. And yet here it is, a reason for people to band together and be as hateful as possible. It certainly doesn't help the relationship between the two countries.
On September 17 2012 09:07 Medrea wrote:
The mainland (now called China, but also mongolia and Korea) has been trying to invade Japan for like thousands of years.
This is probably the oldest rivalry/hate train on planet earth (300BC at the most recent we even know of). With more or less Japan defending the entire time. WWII they get to push back, and literally thousands of years of revenge was taking place as the Japanese did some of the most heinous acts such as force fathers to rape daughters.
Thats what China is so pissed off about and yeah its an old story. Japan will tell you "they started it first" and then they would be right as well.
So its pretty much as KwarK said. There is really no stopping this hate train. For so very long Japan hated the entire world around it because of all of the threats to invade. Which is why up until 100 or so years ago they completely closed themselves off to the world.
This is almost entirely inaccurate. There have only been a handful of attempts by China to invade Japan, with the last one being in the 1200's by Kublai Khan. China has also never raped and pillaged Japan in any capacity near what Japan has done to China during WWII. Furthermore, Japan owes a LOT of its culture and the foundation of its civilization to the Chinese, so they definitely benefited from any "invasion".
And Japan was not always on the defensive either, they have attempted to invade and subjugate Korea a number of times throughout their history.
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I think if the two nations can go another full generation, 80 or so years, without having a war with eachother then the outlook is very strong since I think most of us would agree that as time passes and things just become stories we heard from parents, we simply stop giving a fuck.
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On September 17 2012 09:07 Medrea wrote:
The mainland (now called China, but also mongolia and Korea) has been trying to invade Japan for like thousands of years.
This is probably the oldest rivalry/hate train on planet earth (300BC at the most recent we even know of). With more or less Japan defending the entire time. WWII they get to push back, and literally thousands of years of revenge was taking place as the Japanese did some of the most heinous acts such as force fathers to rape daughters.
Thats what China is so pissed off about and yeah its an old story. Japan will tell you "they started it first" and then they would be right as well.
So its pretty much as KwarK said. There is really no stopping this hate train. For so very long Japan hated the entire world around it because of all of the threats to invade. Which is why up until 100 or so years ago they completely closed themselves off to the world.
China has being trying to invade Japan? What crack are you smoking? LOLs...
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On September 17 2012 09:15 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 09:07 Medrea wrote:
The mainland (now called China, but also mongolia and Korea) has been trying to invade Japan for like thousands of years.
This is probably the oldest rivalry/hate train on planet earth (300BC at the most recent we even know of). With more or less Japan defending the entire time. WWII they get to push back, and literally thousands of years of revenge was taking place as the Japanese did some of the most heinous acts such as force fathers to rape daughters.
Thats what China is so pissed off about and yeah its an old story. Japan will tell you "they started it first" and then they would be right as well.
So its pretty much as KwarK said. There is really no stopping this hate train. For so very long Japan hated the entire world around it because of all of the threats to invade. Which is why up until 100 or so years ago they completely closed themselves off to the world. China has being trying to invade Japan? What crack are you smoking? LOLs...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan
It was called mongolia then.
Korea tried as well.
Hey guess what mongolia wanted. Oh right some islands. SOUNDS FAMILIAR. And we also have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_invasions_of_Korea_(1592–1598)
Some pushing back. Needless to say there is a lot of war going on here. These are all good reads by the way. If you have the time.
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EPT
