|
On September 17 2012 05:39 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 04:46 sephiria wrote:
What I find incredibly interesing: Everybody is judging the situation by western standards: You shall not kill civilians.
Something tells me China would not care about western moral standards if they thought they are strong enough, however, just because western countries have generally agreed upon demanding acts of atonement from 'sinning' (read: losing) countries does not mean that the same mentality dominates in other regions as well. It is also not set in stone. We currently have a high level of ideology stuff in the world aimed at individualism and human rights, but if (hypothetically) the hegemony of the west would stop (or just be weakened), and chinas or russias or someone else's values would prevail we dont know what would happen. I dont think morality is a development (in terms of progress) but a point of view.
It MIGHT be better for japan not to mess with their textbooks and be nicer to neighbors in this matter, but I feel it would be arrogant to tell them what to do.
On a sidenote: people rarely complain about isael's crimes in the past 60 years, because they are the western base in the ME, they can do whatever they want, human rights dont matter or rather dont apply.
Stating that it is the duty or the obligation, even the 'right thing to do' for japan feels arrogant to me.
What are your thoughts on this? I mentioned this a little bit eariler when I was making a call to action to the EU. As America continues to decline, either EU will step up or China will. China has what the "west" considers horrible treatment of the masses. China has been condemned over and over for it's lack of humanitiarian efforts. It really comes down to, would you want to live under more westernized values or Eastern. for me it's easy, I want more human treatment for all. My values would be good for the East as well, but they may not see it that way. Show nested quote +
Out of interest, why do you think China is "ambitious enough to try" to take over the world?
Short version, History repeats itself. China has a huge history of aggression--now that may be simply because it is so old, esp compared to only a small lowly 200 year existance of America. I however, again keeping it to the point, find that historically China is the most imperialistic nation in the East. That combined with Darwinism, is how I draw my conclusion. The slightly longer version, still short is this: China is prospering under a largly American run world, why are they building up arms? How is America in any way-economically, militaristiclly, etc messing with China. China is cheating on our Chinese-American trade deals and we say nothing. We grow their economy buy taking loans from them. Why is China who is prospering from our relations trying to get a military power equal (maybe superior) than ours? They arn't threatened by anyone- so what's the deal? Show nested quote +
Extremely flawed reasoning. This is known as brinksmanship, and it's an ideology that encourages nations to be as aggressive as they think they can be without sparking a nuclear war. Unfortunately not everyone's aim is perfect. Someone will eventually push too far.
Put another way - are you really willing to gamble all of humanity on the notion that the us, china, Japan, and whoever else can have a nice gentlemanly not-total war in spite of the constant incentives to escalate? To see if they can fight just a tad bit closer to that apocalypse threshold and further their chances of winning?
You really think Japan couldn't and wouldn't get and use nukes if it felt threatened enough?
No, the line has already been drawn in the sand. You launch a nuke, we launch. That's the line of brinkmanship.(never heard that term before) Again this all goes back to MAD. Also in Modern Warfare there arn't back and forth swings, wars are incredibly one sided. I'm not sure if we will ever see a non-total war engagement that takes more than 6 months to conclude.
Can you site sources on China's huge history of aggression? And if you really know your history, America's action in the past had huge impact on how China is shaped today.
China has been on the receiving end for about 150 years, if there's one thing China learned during this time is that in order to prevent others from bullying them, they need to be strong economically, technologically, and militarily. From what you've posted, i gather that your understanding of eastern history might be lacking in some serious depth.
|
I once saw a documentary and they had this guy walking around Japan and asking people if they knew about the Nanking massacre. Most didn't know what it was and there was even one person who replied "Nanking? Is that some kind of food?" lol
I can see these issues as a sore spot for both sides and should be addressed, but dialogue is going to be difficult especially when one grows up in China exposed to various media that portrays the Japanese (and Kmt?) as evil, whereas in Japan there are things they don't teach in history class and would probably rather forget.
Can we can agree that smashing cars that people paid good rmb for probably isn't the best way to go about this. Maybe find another avenue to vent that doesn't involve disorder and property damage, idk.
|
chinsese people are so freaking nationalistic, but I think its actually asia in general...
|
On September 17 2012 05:50 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +Why is China who is prospering from our relations trying to get a military power equal (maybe superior) than ours? They arn't threatened by anyone- so what's the deal? Coming from a soldier working for the largest/strongest combat force in the world by several magnitudes. Maybe ever thought about the fact that you are considered a threat?
They are making Trillions (not billions) off of us, both in trade and loans.
We are their Sugar Daddy, not an abusive alcholic father...
|
On September 16 2012 05:57 Nanikure wrote:
This nationalism shit is honestly getting on my fucking nerves.
They flip your car over or something?
|
On September 17 2012 06:12 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 05:57 Nanikure wrote:
This nationalism shit is honestly getting on my fucking nerves. They flip your car over or something?
Most people who don't like Nationism, are into this "citizens of the world" movement.
They think all humans can be unified together under one set of rules, values, and law.
They are sorely mistaken, but they mean well.
|
On September 17 2012 06:15 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 06:12 reincremate wrote:On September 16 2012 05:57 Nanikure wrote:
This nationalism shit is honestly getting on my fucking nerves. They flip your car over or something? Most people who don't like Nationism, are into this "citizens of the world" movement. They think all humans can be unified together under one set of rules, values, and law. They are sorely mistaken, but they mean well.
Care to explain how they are mistaken?
|
On September 17 2012 06:15 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 06:12 reincremate wrote:On September 16 2012 05:57 Nanikure wrote:
This nationalism shit is honestly getting on my fucking nerves. They flip your car over or something? Most people who don't like Nationism, are into this "citizens of the world" movement. They think all humans can be unified together under one set of rules, values, and law. They are sorely mistaken, but they mean well.
Let me quote you again.
China is prospering under a largly American run world
Kinda twofaced, or did i miss something? I wont get into a discussion if the world is "largely american run", but i somehow get the feeling that you dont really try to get a chinese standpoint, but are incredibly biased. You are not discussing (or even knowing), you just derail the thread with almost every statement you make, instead of just answering questions and arguments pointed at you.
Also, about the sugar daddy thing, its not like america does not benefit from these loans and trades. Its not like you do that out of the kindness of your heart.
|
On September 17 2012 06:16 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 06:15 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 06:12 reincremate wrote:On September 16 2012 05:57 Nanikure wrote:
This nationalism shit is honestly getting on my fucking nerves. They flip your car over or something? Most people who don't like Nationism, are into this "citizens of the world" movement. They think all humans can be unified together under one set of rules, values, and law. They are sorely mistaken, but they mean well. Care to explain how they are mistaken?
Short version: Darwin island birds
Longer version: Have and havenots- who gets to be who?
What are you going to do when neither side will negociate on things?
Jews/Muslims
Conservatives/Liberals
Socialist/Liberterians/Capitalist
My land or your land
Your values or mine
Your laws or mine
Conflict is built into our genes. We are competive.
When we don't get our way, we find like minded people till we have a majority of power and push our will onto others.
This is refered to as "The Human Condition"
|
On September 17 2012 06:22 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 06:15 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 06:12 reincremate wrote:On September 16 2012 05:57 Nanikure wrote:
This nationalism shit is honestly getting on my fucking nerves. They flip your car over or something? Most people who don't like Nationism, are into this "citizens of the world" movement. They think all humans can be unified together under one set of rules, values, and law. They are sorely mistaken, but they mean well. Let me quote you again. Kinda twofaced, or did i miss something? I wont get into a discussion if the world is "largely american run", but i somehow get the feeling that you dont really try to get a chinese standpoint, but are incredibly biased. You are not discussing (or even knowing), you just derail the thread with almost every statement you make, instead of just answering questions and arguments pointed at you. Also, about the sugar daddy thing, its not like america does not benefit from these loans and trades. Its not like you do that out of the kindness of your heart.
Honestly, I really don't know what your saying. Your not making your position very clear, so how can I retort your position if you can't define it? Also I don't answer people who make personal attacks. Ad Hominem. I'm only intrested in discussion.
As far as the trade goes, China gets more out of the trade deals than we do- why do we let this occur.
1) America is in decline and it never hurts to be nice to the soon-to-be leader of the world, if EU doesn't step up.
2) America has a forgein policy that tries to 'bribe'(for lack of a more PC word) nations to direct them in a path that's not pointed at America.
|
On September 17 2012 04:00 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 03:54 Arcanis wrote:Reading pages of uninformed opinions about who would win in a war between China and the US... people talking about China military being strong that only the US military can surpass it. This is a joke, everyone forgets about nukes? Sure the Cold War is over, but the balance of military powers (or better said who can annihilate faster the enemy) hasnt changed. America is still number one, followed by Russia and then the European block of nations, for god sake even Israel has the same number of nukes as China and surely a better payload delivery system. source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weaponsA modern all out war wouldnt be fought by fishing ships full of explosives swarming supercarriers, but it would be won in a few days based on who has the better first-strike and second-strike capability and payload delivery system. Right now China pales in comparison to America, Russia and the EU. But feel free to ignore the importance of nukes in today geopolitical balance of powers and continue fantasizing about a World War 2 like scenario with Marines storming islands on the pacific and whatnot.... Nukes won't be launched for land grabs. Nukes won't be fired against any nation that can fire back. Nukes are a deterrent, and are more likely to be used by terrorist, if anyone ever uses one again. if anyone is out-out-touch it would be you thinking about a MAD (mutually assured destruction) scenario. Might want to look into escalation policies before you spout off against people trying to have a legitimate discussion.
This is off-topic and I dont want to continue the discussion here, becouse this is a thread about the current riots against Japan, however I cannot stand when people get all worked up about an immaginary war between the US and China, and start fantasizing about who would prevail using standard weapons while completely neglecting nukes, as has been the case in this thread.
You also seem to imply that there is a chance for a "limited" conflict involving high level players (US, China, Russia) that would not escalate in a nuclear war, which is totally out of touch with reality. Nuclear wars can start for even implied threats, I dont see any way for a conflct between nuclear capable nations to not escalate to a nuclear confrontation.
|
Eh...this doesn't suprise me. Actually the timing makes sense with China's prominence as a world power in the last decade. They're in a position now where they can do some pushing around and get some revenge for what's been done to them. It's easy to say get over it and forget the past but human beings are not so quick to forgive and forget. Honestly I don't know if I can blame them. If something like Nanking happened to Toronto and it was the US that did it I'd probably hate the US forever too. Especially if they wouldn't even aknowledge it happened like the Japanese do -_-. Crimes like those take generations to forget and 70ish years isn't that long a time in the grand scheme of things.
|
thank you for compiling all the info
|
On September 17 2012 06:28 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 06:22 m4inbrain wrote:On September 17 2012 06:15 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 06:12 reincremate wrote:On September 16 2012 05:57 Nanikure wrote:
This nationalism shit is honestly getting on my fucking nerves. They flip your car over or something? Most people who don't like Nationism, are into this "citizens of the world" movement. They think all humans can be unified together under one set of rules, values, and law. They are sorely mistaken, but they mean well. Let me quote you again. China is prospering under a largly American run world Kinda twofaced, or did i miss something? I wont get into a discussion if the world is "largely american run", but i somehow get the feeling that you dont really try to get a chinese standpoint, but are incredibly biased. You are not discussing (or even knowing), you just derail the thread with almost every statement you make, instead of just answering questions and arguments pointed at you. Also, about the sugar daddy thing, its not like america does not benefit from these loans and trades. Its not like you do that out of the kindness of your heart. Honestly, I really don't know what your saying. Your not making your position very clear, so how can I retort your position if you can't define it? Also I don't answer people who make personal attacks. Ad Hominem. I'm only intrested in discussion. As far as the trade goes, China gets more out of the trade deals than we do- why do we let this occur. 1) America is in decline and it never hurts to be nice to the soon-to-be leader of the world, if EU doesn't step up. 2) America has a forgein policy that tries to 'bribe'(for lack of a more PC word) nations to direct them in a path that's not pointed at America.
Well, you want to know my position? Im german. We have good relationships with china. Actually, germany has the best relationship to china of all EU-countries. China is one of our biggest trading partners (might even be the biggest one, dunno 100%), I like the direction china is headed (technology-wise mostly), they are not as cowardly as the US or the EU (including germany).
Also, they will get further ahead in the future, with the introduction of the first commercial MSRs for example. To me it looks like china is doing alot right, whereas the EU and US doing alot of stuff wrong. I do not really know if i want china to "run the world", but, and now you need to brace yourself for another "personal attack", they actually would need to prove that they're worse than the US. Because i dont think that the US did a good job with that (but thats another topic).
On actual topic: do i fear for japan? Dont really know. I tend to think that diplomatic bonds are too strong (china for example cant lose the US and germany as trading partners, it would be economic suicide), Yet. I dont think that china would start something like germany did, just sending armies left and right to annect everything thats in their way. It just does not work this way anymore.
|
On September 17 2012 06:07 GoSuChicken wrote:
chinsese people are so freaking nationalistic, but I think its actually asia in general...
The same can be said for the rest of the world
|
On September 17 2012 07:10 hippotato wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 06:07 GoSuChicken wrote:
chinsese people are so freaking nationalistic, but I think its actually asia in general... The same can be said for the rest of the world
This. You shouldn't really generalize a whole continent based on the actions of a group from China.
|
Thing with Japanese textbook revisionism is the fact they discriminate within their own minority groups too..
Suicide order controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa#Suicide_order_controversy
You may say what's in the past can't be corrected, but when apologies for atrocities are followed up by actions which contradict the apology, well its a slap in the face for an issue that affects people who survived these tragedies.
The general anti-japanese statement is not due to media fear-mongering or nationalism for the sake of politics... its the underlying sentiment of most of Asia towards Japan (as a country)
|
this china protesting against japan shit is getting ridiculous
what is china so mad about? the islands?
what claim does china have that is superior to the others
|
On September 17 2012 07:37 Denzil wrote:
this china protesting against japan shit is getting ridiculous
what is china so mad about?
Read the OP or don't post at all because you are not providing any contribution beside ignorance.
|
On September 17 2012 07:40 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 07:37 Denzil wrote:
this china protesting against japan shit is getting ridiculous
what is china so mad about? Read the OP or don't post at all because you are not providing any contribution beside ignorance.
the OP is telling me nothing other than china is mad on a large scale
Kwarks post tells me that china is pissed off because of japan's conduct in world war 2
therefore, what is china so mad about? i dont get pissed off at the germans for killing my grandfather in WW2
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
