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On September 17 2012 02:59 fatfail wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 02:32 Pseudoku wrote:On September 17 2012 02:26 fatfail wrote:On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. ![[image loading]](http://econintersect.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/frank-li-erotica.png) "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea? Correct, China cant do shit. Their economy would crumble and their navy is terrible anyways. The commanders are incompetent and the soldiers aren't disciplined. You're welcome to keep believing that. Being Chinese I think I'm unbiased and knowledgeable about the situation. If they were truly confident in their naval ability and their economy could sustain outright combat with the japanese, why haven't they taken back the islands with their supposedly invincible military power?
They do not want to be seen as the aggressors. Why attack and be marked as dangerous when it is possible to resolve the issue through other means (diplomatically, or economically)?
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On September 17 2012 03:20 DeepElemBlues wrote:
Zerging carrier task forces is old news. The US Navy's known about it for years and has come up with some kind of doctrine that it thinks will handle it. The Japanese did the same thing in WW2, they didn't just use kamikaze planes and submarines, they used boats as well. Lay down a lot fire and you stop almost all of them.
And a war with China would be for keeps. If they sink a carrier or four, we wouldn't quit.
And, because a war with China would be for keeps, that's why neither side will start one. China's never going to become so much more powerful than the US and our allies that they could just sweep us back to Hawaii no problem. China will become so strong that it won't be possible to beat her except in a total war scenario that is not ever going to be a possibility.
I don't share ur optomisim.
5-20 years China will be the leading military power in the East, possibly the world if US keeps downsizing and EU/Russia doesn't pick up the slack.
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On September 17 2012 03:17 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 03:17 Pseudoku wrote:On September 17 2012 02:51 Voltaire wrote:On September 17 2012 02:50 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 02:40 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:37 Azarkon wrote:On September 17 2012 02:35 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:26 fatfail wrote:On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea? Correct, China cant do shit. Their economy would crumble and their navy is terrible anyways. The commanders are incompetent and the soldiers aren't disciplined. You Sir, are completly wrong, as a fellow countryman I'll try to explain this to you. China holds one of the few economies in the world that are least impacted by global affairs. China contorls China's economy. They make everything they need, and own(not buy) resources around the world that arn't found in China. Their commanders are VERY loyal, and highly trained. Maybe not as much as USA or Japan/EU but to say they are incompetent is FOOLISH. Americans... I'd like to apologise to the TL community- I promise we arn't all arogant, and do support the greater good. Some of us are just a little too full-of-ourselves. The only true thing you said is that China's soliders arn't disiplined. This is true- they pretty much hand them guns and say go. but with a population of 1BILLION+ you don't need disipline you just need them to run and ZERG their prey. For a person who served in the military you sure don't know modern warfare very well. Saying that the Chinese are just going to ZERG their way to victory is... I'm sorry. I guess you missed what a Chinese lead Navial Admiral said about the brand new STEALTH US cruiser. I'm paraphrazing: We wno't bother trying to defeat it's EWSs we will just grab a bunch of small boats with bombs and throw them at the cruiser. We win the cost battle 1000 to 1. They will ZERG. as well as engage in modern warfare techniques. They can and WILL do BOTH. A capability we don't have. China has more men than we do bullets/bombs/rockets Never forget that. I remember the last time China conducted naval exercises in the Taiwan Strait, America's response was to stage their own. The PRC naval admiral claimed that while the United States has vastly superior technology (particularly addressing the presence of the USS Independence and the USS George Washington, a super-carrier), that it only takes a fishing boat full of explosives to incapacitate its maritime capabilities. Of course the PRC naval admiral is going to try to downplay the strength of the US. That fishing boat would never be able to reach either ship. One fishing boat may not, but many more can get through. I believe that the reference was to the US' new stealth warship DDG-1000 (which cost like 7 billion USD each), which can be easily overwhelmed by fishing boats (how many fishing boats and explosives can you get for 7 billion USD?). And how are fishing boats going to find a stealth warship?
The only way the fishing boat scenario could work is if the boat struck while the stealth warship was just leaving a harbor (it's generally pretty hard to hide a 7 billion dollar destroyer from the million+ people in any Asian coastal city.)
If the PRC makes the call to go start shooting, they're going to try and knock out the US fleet while it's sitting in harbor, or at least immobilize it. The trouble with that is
1) they risk causing a Pearl Harbor style backlash if casualties are excessive (and here is where the traditional US aversion to casualties cuts against China, because the US may find as few as 10 or 20 casualties 'excessive')
2) if the ships were vulnerable, they would not be in a US base, which means they would be in a neutral port, causing an international outcry if the ships were to be attacked their (neutrality is important in international law)
3) the PRC would almost immediately open itself to counterattacks on China-flagged ships carrying critical imports like metal ores from Australia and Brazil, and energy from the Middle East--those ships travel through sealanes which the US Navy essentially owns (the straits of Hormuz and Malacca; the Panama Canal)
4) attacking the US without the US formally announcing its intention to intervene in the conflict would almost certainly provoke a military response from the US (wiping out the chance that the US may just sit the conflict out.)
I read between the lines on the PLA admiral's words, too. The fact that he is talking about such a tactic simply highlights the PLAN's ossified thinking as regards to how to actual deflect American power projection short of all-out war (which the PLAN would lose anyhow.)
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On September 17 2012 03:17 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 03:17 Pseudoku wrote:On September 17 2012 02:51 Voltaire wrote:On September 17 2012 02:50 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 02:40 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:37 Azarkon wrote:On September 17 2012 02:35 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:26 fatfail wrote:On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea? Correct, China cant do shit. Their economy would crumble and their navy is terrible anyways. The commanders are incompetent and the soldiers aren't disciplined. You Sir, are completly wrong, as a fellow countryman I'll try to explain this to you. China holds one of the few economies in the world that are least impacted by global affairs. China contorls China's economy. They make everything they need, and own(not buy) resources around the world that arn't found in China. Their commanders are VERY loyal, and highly trained. Maybe not as much as USA or Japan/EU but to say they are incompetent is FOOLISH. Americans... I'd like to apologise to the TL community- I promise we arn't all arogant, and do support the greater good. Some of us are just a little too full-of-ourselves. The only true thing you said is that China's soliders arn't disiplined. This is true- they pretty much hand them guns and say go. but with a population of 1BILLION+ you don't need disipline you just need them to run and ZERG their prey. For a person who served in the military you sure don't know modern warfare very well. Saying that the Chinese are just going to ZERG their way to victory is... I'm sorry. I guess you missed what a Chinese lead Navial Admiral said about the brand new STEALTH US cruiser. I'm paraphrazing: We wno't bother trying to defeat it's EWSs we will just grab a bunch of small boats with bombs and throw them at the cruiser. We win the cost battle 1000 to 1. They will ZERG. as well as engage in modern warfare techniques. They can and WILL do BOTH. A capability we don't have. China has more men than we do bullets/bombs/rockets Never forget that. I remember the last time China conducted naval exercises in the Taiwan Strait, America's response was to stage their own. The PRC naval admiral claimed that while the United States has vastly superior technology (particularly addressing the presence of the USS Independence and the USS George Washington, a super-carrier), that it only takes a fishing boat full of explosives to incapacitate its maritime capabilities. Of course the PRC naval admiral is going to try to downplay the strength of the US. That fishing boat would never be able to reach either ship. One fishing boat may not, but many more can get through. I believe that the reference was to the US' new stealth warship DDG-1000 (which cost like 7 billion USD each), which can be easily overwhelmed by fishing boats (how many fishing boats and explosives can you get for 7 billion USD?). And how are fishing boats going to find a stealth warship?
It doesn't have cloaking technology, and China has more than just fishing boats.
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I am not sure why anyone here thinks China could ever conquer Japan or any developed country for that matter due to the sheer amount of treaties involved in every country surrounding China. Invading a developed country without a ridiculously good reason that the rest of the world agrees is a good reason and supports is paramount to declaring war on every other country in the world. Even removing nukes aside that is suicide for that country as their is no way for them to win militarily, let alone economically. If they involved nukes, well that would probably be the end of the world as we know it then, which no one wants, so the invading country would never invade another to begin with.
I am unsure of why everyone is arguing of who would win in a war when its rather obvious...either the aggressor will lose or the entire world will lose and in either case the aggressor is pretty much fucked.
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Guys chill the fuck out. The Chinese government are too smart to declare any formal war with any countries. Its just citizens rioting, and the Police department actually arrest people when shits get out of the hand.
You guys speculating about a war scenerio involving Warships and whatnot is just plain lol-worthy.
EDIT: so please get the fuck out of the topic and focus on the information at hand pertaining about the island!
Now historically speaking, which countries have the most presence in the tiny piece of land?
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Dick measuring army strength at a time of peace is irrelevant. Nobody knows what each of these major nations strengths would be in full war status. For example, nobody thought the Soviets could muster a force capable of defeating the Germans in WW2. I suspect China are already the strongest nation but the West as a whole is much more powerful.
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On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea?
Yeah, this isn't biased in any way.
My advice, stop viewing Taiwan as the saintly true China. If you didn't know, the CCP started BECAUSE the Guomindang was corrupt as hell (even more than it is today). Also, you should that most people living in Taiwan were Southerners who fled there after the Civil War. It isn't exactly an "heir" to all of Chinese culture, its only a snippet of it.
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There is no way a war could break out between Japan and China.
China has a lot of options that are much more cost effective than an all out war. An economic sanction, something as trivial as a ban on the export of rare earth metals and restricted tourism could severely damage Japan's already weakened economy that will likely force Japan to succumb to terms with China. There are obviously other more drastic steps China could take, such as an overall ban on trades with Japan, that could have much bigger implications on Asian and global economy as a whole.
China is a powerful nation not only because of its military standings, but more importantly, its economic presence and potential.
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On September 17 2012 03:32 Xiphos wrote:
Guys chill the fuck out. The Chinese government are too smart to declare any formal war with any countries. Its just citizens rioting, and the Police department actually arrest people when shits get out of the hand.
You guys speculating about a war scenerio involving Warships and whatnot is just plain lol-worthy.
EDIT: so please get the fuck out of the topic and focus on the information at hand pertaining about the island!
Now historically speaking, which countries have the most presence in the tiny piece of land?
But Chinese will be the one who pull the trigger for this war for sure. If they keep lurking around those island once again, I believe Japan will throw the stick first.
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On September 17 2012 03:30 Silver777 wrote:
I am not sure why anyone here thinks China could ever conquer Japan or any developed country for that matter due to the sheer amount of treaties involved in every country surrounding China. Invading a developed country without a ridiculously good reason that the rest of the world agrees is a good reason and supports is paramount to declaring war on every other country in the world. Even removing nukes aside that is suicide for that country as their is no way for them to win militarily, let alone economically. If they involved nukes, well that would probably be the end of the world as we know it then, which no one wants, so the invading country would never invade another to begin with.
I am unsure of why everyone is arguing of who would win in a war when its rather obvious...either the aggressor will lose or the entire world will lose and in either case the aggressor is pretty much fucked.
Finally a voice of reason.
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On September 17 2012 03:38 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 03:32 Xiphos wrote:
Guys chill the fuck out. The Chinese government are too smart to declare any formal war with any countries. Its just citizens rioting, and the Police department actually arrest people when shits get out of the hand.
You guys speculating about a war scenerio involving Warships and whatnot is just plain lol-worthy.
EDIT: so please get the fuck out of the topic and focus on the information at hand pertaining about the island!
Now historically speaking, which countries have the most presence in the tiny piece of land? But Chinese will be the one who pull the trigger for this war for sure. If they keep lurking around those island once again, I believe Japan will throw the stick first.
Well that depends, maybe they can decide this democratically with fair agreement such as "hey this part of the island is yours and the other half is mine". Every body wins!
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On September 17 2012 03:30 Silver777 wrote:
I am not sure why anyone here thinks China could ever conquer Japan or any developed country for that matter due to the sheer amount of treaties involved in every country surrounding China. Invading a developed country without a ridiculously good reason that the rest of the world agrees is a good reason and supports is paramount to declaring war on every other country in the world. Even removing nukes aside that is suicide for that country as their is no way for them to win militarily, let alone economically. If they involved nukes, well that would probably be the end of the world as we know it then, which no one wants, so the invading country would never invade another to begin with.
I am unsure of why everyone is arguing of who would win in a war when its rather obvious...either the aggressor will lose or the entire world will lose and in either case the aggressor is pretty much fucked.
Agreed. There is no doubt that China will be the super power of the far east soon. It is coming no matter what. There are several territorial disputes China currently has, but it is hard to believe China takes them all with sheer power. It doesn't benefit China at all. Instead, China and surrounding countries will have to compromise. Ever since China and Russia both compromised on their territorial issue, their ties have been stronger than ever in history. Some other countries might follow the example as China gets stronger.
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China just wants more land even though they're country is huge as fuck already. ^^
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On September 17 2012 03:38 Cambium wrote:
There is no way a war could break out between Japan and China.
China has a lot of options that are much more cost effective than an all out war. An economic sanction, something as trivial as a ban on the export of rare earth metals and restricted tourism could severely damage Japan's already weakened economy that will likely force Japan to succumb to terms with China. There are obviously other more drastic steps China could take, such as an overall ban on trades with Japan, that could have much bigger implications on Asian and global economy as a whole.
China is a powerful nation not only because of its military standings, but more importantly, its economic presence and potential.
It's a lot to hope that the only thing preventing human extinction is that every country with nukes acts perfectly reasonably.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 17 2012 03:39 NadaSound wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 03:30 Silver777 wrote:
I am not sure why anyone here thinks China could ever conquer Japan or any developed country for that matter due to the sheer amount of treaties involved in every country surrounding China. Invading a developed country without a ridiculously good reason that the rest of the world agrees is a good reason and supports is paramount to declaring war on every other country in the world. Even removing nukes aside that is suicide for that country as their is no way for them to win militarily, let alone economically. If they involved nukes, well that would probably be the end of the world as we know it then, which no one wants, so the invading country would never invade another to begin with.
I am unsure of why everyone is arguing of who would win in a war when its rather obvious...either the aggressor will lose or the entire world will lose and in either case the aggressor is pretty much fucked. Finally a voice of reason.
Because it's hip and cool to talk about geopolitics instead of that lame old pacifism. Also, everyone wants to impress everyone else by turning into a military genius.
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On September 17 2012 03:36 Brutaxilos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea? Yeah, this isn't biased in any way. My advice, stop viewing Taiwan as the saintly true China. If you didn't know, the CCP started BECAUSE the Guomindang was corrupt as hell (even more than it is today). Also, you should that most people living in Taiwan were Southerners who fled there after the Civil War. It isn't exactly an "heir" to all of Chinese culture, its only a snippet of it.
What in the fuck? Are you sure this was the artist's intention or are we just reading way too much into an oil painting of naked girls?
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Reading pages of uninformed opinions about who would win in a war between China and the US... people talking about China military being strong that only the US military can surpass it. This is a joke, everyone forgets about nukes? Sure the Cold War is over, but the balance of military powers (or better said who can annihilate faster the enemy) hasnt changed.
America is still number one, followed by Russia and then the European block of nations, for god sake even Israel has the same number of nukes as China and surely a better payload delivery system.
source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_with_nuclear_weapons
A modern all out war wouldnt be fought by fishing ships full of explosives swarming supercarriers, but it would be won in a few days based on who has the better first-strike and second-strike capability and payload delivery system. Right now China pales in comparison to America, Russia and the EU.
But feel free to ignore the importance of nukes in today geopolitical balance of powers and continue fantasizing about a World War 2 like scenario with Marines storming islands on the pacific and whatnot....
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On September 17 2012 03:45 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 03:39 NadaSound wrote:On September 17 2012 03:30 Silver777 wrote:
I am not sure why anyone here thinks China could ever conquer Japan or any developed country for that matter due to the sheer amount of treaties involved in every country surrounding China. Invading a developed country without a ridiculously good reason that the rest of the world agrees is a good reason and supports is paramount to declaring war on every other country in the world. Even removing nukes aside that is suicide for that country as their is no way for them to win militarily, let alone economically. If they involved nukes, well that would probably be the end of the world as we know it then, which no one wants, so the invading country would never invade another to begin with.
I am unsure of why everyone is arguing of who would win in a war when its rather obvious...either the aggressor will lose or the entire world will lose and in either case the aggressor is pretty much fucked. Finally a voice of reason. Because it's hip and cool to talk about geopolitics instead of that lame old pacifism. Also, everyone wants to impress everyone else by turning into a military genius.
Or maybe, we just like to discuss things. Maybe it's not a dick measuring contest like people keep saying.
Maybe your wrong.
Maybe some of us do have some meritt and find this topic and ones like it intresting.
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On September 17 2012 03:56 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 03:45 CountChocula wrote:On September 17 2012 03:39 NadaSound wrote:On September 17 2012 03:30 Silver777 wrote:
I am not sure why anyone here thinks China could ever conquer Japan or any developed country for that matter due to the sheer amount of treaties involved in every country surrounding China. Invading a developed country without a ridiculously good reason that the rest of the world agrees is a good reason and supports is paramount to declaring war on every other country in the world. Even removing nukes aside that is suicide for that country as their is no way for them to win militarily, let alone economically. If they involved nukes, well that would probably be the end of the world as we know it then, which no one wants, so the invading country would never invade another to begin with.
I am unsure of why everyone is arguing of who would win in a war when its rather obvious...either the aggressor will lose or the entire world will lose and in either case the aggressor is pretty much fucked. Finally a voice of reason. Because it's hip and cool to talk about geopolitics instead of that lame old pacifism. Also, everyone wants to impress everyone else by turning into a military genius. Or maybe, we just like to discuss things. Maybe it's not a dick measuring contest like people keep saying. Maybe your wrong. Maybe some of us do have some meritt and find this topic and ones like it intresting.
Well, I was under the impression that this was a thread about a current event rather than another one of the millions of geopolitical china/USA threads where every armchair general has to chime in. Was much more interesting that way too.
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EPT
