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On September 17 2012 02:54 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 02:50 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 02:40 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:37 Azarkon wrote:On September 17 2012 02:35 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:26 fatfail wrote:On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. ![[image loading]](http://econintersect.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/frank-li-erotica.png) "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea? Correct, China cant do shit. Their economy would crumble and their navy is terrible anyways. The commanders are incompetent and the soldiers aren't disciplined. You Sir, are completly wrong, as a fellow countryman I'll try to explain this to you. China holds one of the few economies in the world that are least impacted by global affairs. China contorls China's economy. They make everything they need, and own(not buy) resources around the world that arn't found in China. Their commanders are VERY loyal, and highly trained. Maybe not as much as USA or Japan/EU but to say they are incompetent is FOOLISH. Americans... I'd like to apologise to the TL community- I promise we arn't all arogant, and do support the greater good. Some of us are just a little too full-of-ourselves. The only true thing you said is that China's soliders arn't disiplined. This is true- they pretty much hand them guns and say go. but with a population of 1BILLION+ you don't need disipline you just need them to run and ZERG their prey. For a person who served in the military you sure don't know modern warfare very well. Saying that the Chinese are just going to ZERG their way to victory is... I'm sorry. I guess you missed what a Chinese lead Navial Admiral said about the brand new STEALTH US cruiser. I'm paraphrazing: We wno't bother trying to defeat it's EWSs we will just grab a bunch of small boats with bombs and throw them at the cruiser. We win the cost battle 1000 to 1. They will ZERG. as well as engage in modern warfare techniques. They can and WILL do BOTH. A capability we don't have. China has more men than we do bullets/bombs/rockets Never forget that. I remember the last time China conducted naval exercises in the Taiwan Strait, America's response was to stage their own. The PRC naval admiral claimed that while the United States has vastly superior technology (particularly addressing the presence of the USS Independence and the USS George Washington, a super-carrier), that it only takes a fishing boat full of explosives to incapacitate its maritime capabilities. Complete huffing and puffing by the PLAN. The Western Pacific is freaking huge, and to actually find the US 7th Fleet and follow-on forces in that haystack, and get a fishing boat in position, would be a herculean task. That being said, there are ways to incapacitate the 7th Fleet without striking at the ships themselves. For example, engaging in massive electronic warfare against the satellite links that keep the 7th Fleet linked to the rest of the US defense network, or sabotaging the port facilities during a routine port visit so that the big super-carrier can't leave harbor, etc.
Agreed. But I tend to read between the lines, and I realized that this guy is in command of the freaking PRC fleet. His comment, while absurd in itself, totally shows how he's aware of China's ability to fight a war of attrition. It's something the US can't afford.
On September 17 2012 02:45 Taku wrote:
Sigh another China thread degrades into discussing a pissing contest between USA and China. There was such a good discussion about the actual event and underlying reasons earlier...
Discussing America's strengths, in relation to China, is definitely relevant when discussing Sino-Japanese relations.
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China is a resource poor country. They are limited by things besides population. China's population also isn't growing that fast - their fertility rate is below that of replacement level, and the one child policy has wrecked their military age population base.
China won't be able to take fights at higher cost ratios for very long. They're able to do so to drive a couple of US carrier groups away from their side of the Pacific, yes, but beyond that they are not capable of taking on the West, and in my opinion won't ever be able to take on the West.
This isn't true- at all.
They have been buying large amount of land in forgein lands that contain precious metals.
Most of which are believed to be used primarly in the manufacturing of supercomputer chips/circuit boards
What little they don't have in China they can afford to buy-- and they are.
Population can be redirected in 2 decades. In fact, the repeal of the 3rd child law might be one of many tale-tale signs of potiential military aggression.
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Being Chinese I think I'm unbiased and knowledgeable about the situation. If they were truly confident in their naval ability and their economy could sustain outright combat with the japanese, why haven't they taken back the islands with their supposedly invincible military power?
Why take it now, it will be cheaper to take it as America continues to decline.
The relatiation is too costly now, but it won't be in the future.
You can pick your time of attack, when your the aggressor.
Keep in mind who wrote the Art of War.
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On September 17 2012 03:06 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 02:54 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 02:50 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 02:40 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:37 Azarkon wrote:On September 17 2012 02:35 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:26 fatfail wrote:On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea? Correct, China cant do shit. Their economy would crumble and their navy is terrible anyways. The commanders are incompetent and the soldiers aren't disciplined. You Sir, are completly wrong, as a fellow countryman I'll try to explain this to you. China holds one of the few economies in the world that are least impacted by global affairs. China contorls China's economy. They make everything they need, and own(not buy) resources around the world that arn't found in China. Their commanders are VERY loyal, and highly trained. Maybe not as much as USA or Japan/EU but to say they are incompetent is FOOLISH. Americans... I'd like to apologise to the TL community- I promise we arn't all arogant, and do support the greater good. Some of us are just a little too full-of-ourselves. The only true thing you said is that China's soliders arn't disiplined. This is true- they pretty much hand them guns and say go. but with a population of 1BILLION+ you don't need disipline you just need them to run and ZERG their prey. For a person who served in the military you sure don't know modern warfare very well. Saying that the Chinese are just going to ZERG their way to victory is... I'm sorry. I guess you missed what a Chinese lead Navial Admiral said about the brand new STEALTH US cruiser. I'm paraphrazing: We wno't bother trying to defeat it's EWSs we will just grab a bunch of small boats with bombs and throw them at the cruiser. We win the cost battle 1000 to 1. They will ZERG. as well as engage in modern warfare techniques. They can and WILL do BOTH. A capability we don't have. China has more men than we do bullets/bombs/rockets Never forget that. I remember the last time China conducted naval exercises in the Taiwan Strait, America's response was to stage their own. The PRC naval admiral claimed that while the United States has vastly superior technology (particularly addressing the presence of the USS Independence and the USS George Washington, a super-carrier), that it only takes a fishing boat full of explosives to incapacitate its maritime capabilities. Complete huffing and puffing by the PLAN. The Western Pacific is freaking huge, and to actually find the US 7th Fleet and follow-on forces in that haystack, and get a fishing boat in position, would be a herculean task. That being said, there are ways to incapacitate the 7th Fleet without striking at the ships themselves. For example, engaging in massive electronic warfare against the satellite links that keep the 7th Fleet linked to the rest of the US defense network, or sabotaging the port facilities during a routine port visit so that the big super-carrier can't leave harbor, etc. Agreed. But I tend to read between the lines, and I realized that this guy is in command of the freaking PRC fleet. His comment, while absurd in itself, totally shows how he's aware of China's ability to fight a war of attrition. It's something the US can't afford. Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 02:45 Taku wrote:
Sigh another China thread degrades into discussing a pissing contest between USA and China. There was such a good discussion about the actual event and underlying reasons earlier... Discussing America's strengths, in relation to China, is definitely relevant when discussing Sino-Japanese relations.
Not really, china is allowing and promoting the protests as a show of nationalism but china isn't stupid it's not going to bother with military ventures for a long time off. Zeesh this is just psudo barging attempts to get a resource rich part of the ocean, china for a long time has been trying to obtain as much ocean territory as it can to control trading routs.
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On September 17 2012 03:08 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +
Being Chinese I think I'm unbiased and knowledgeable about the situation. If they were truly confident in their naval ability and their economy could sustain outright combat with the japanese, why haven't they taken back the islands with their supposedly invincible military power?
Why take it now, it will be cheaper to take it as America continues to decline. The relatiation is too costly now, but it won't be in the future.
This. The PRC is buying internal stability with economic success. They will only take the islands if the costs are manageable and the fallout doesn't risk their exports.
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On September 17 2012 03:09 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 03:06 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 02:54 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 02:50 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 02:40 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:37 Azarkon wrote:On September 17 2012 02:35 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:26 fatfail wrote:On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea? Correct, China cant do shit. Their economy would crumble and their navy is terrible anyways. The commanders are incompetent and the soldiers aren't disciplined. You Sir, are completly wrong, as a fellow countryman I'll try to explain this to you. China holds one of the few economies in the world that are least impacted by global affairs. China contorls China's economy. They make everything they need, and own(not buy) resources around the world that arn't found in China. Their commanders are VERY loyal, and highly trained. Maybe not as much as USA or Japan/EU but to say they are incompetent is FOOLISH. Americans... I'd like to apologise to the TL community- I promise we arn't all arogant, and do support the greater good. Some of us are just a little too full-of-ourselves. The only true thing you said is that China's soliders arn't disiplined. This is true- they pretty much hand them guns and say go. but with a population of 1BILLION+ you don't need disipline you just need them to run and ZERG their prey. For a person who served in the military you sure don't know modern warfare very well. Saying that the Chinese are just going to ZERG their way to victory is... I'm sorry. I guess you missed what a Chinese lead Navial Admiral said about the brand new STEALTH US cruiser. I'm paraphrazing: We wno't bother trying to defeat it's EWSs we will just grab a bunch of small boats with bombs and throw them at the cruiser. We win the cost battle 1000 to 1. They will ZERG. as well as engage in modern warfare techniques. They can and WILL do BOTH. A capability we don't have. China has more men than we do bullets/bombs/rockets Never forget that. I remember the last time China conducted naval exercises in the Taiwan Strait, America's response was to stage their own. The PRC naval admiral claimed that while the United States has vastly superior technology (particularly addressing the presence of the USS Independence and the USS George Washington, a super-carrier), that it only takes a fishing boat full of explosives to incapacitate its maritime capabilities. Complete huffing and puffing by the PLAN. The Western Pacific is freaking huge, and to actually find the US 7th Fleet and follow-on forces in that haystack, and get a fishing boat in position, would be a herculean task. That being said, there are ways to incapacitate the 7th Fleet without striking at the ships themselves. For example, engaging in massive electronic warfare against the satellite links that keep the 7th Fleet linked to the rest of the US defense network, or sabotaging the port facilities during a routine port visit so that the big super-carrier can't leave harbor, etc. Agreed. But I tend to read between the lines, and I realized that this guy is in command of the freaking PRC fleet. His comment, while absurd in itself, totally shows how he's aware of China's ability to fight a war of attrition. It's something the US can't afford. On September 17 2012 02:45 Taku wrote:
Sigh another China thread degrades into discussing a pissing contest between USA and China. There was such a good discussion about the actual event and underlying reasons earlier... Discussing America's strengths, in relation to China, is definitely relevant when discussing Sino-Japanese relations. Not really, china is allowing and promoting the protests as a show of nationalism but china isn't stupid it's not going to bother with military ventures for a long time off. Zeesh this is just psudo barging attempts to get a resource rich part of the ocean, china for a long time has been trying to obtain as much ocean territory as it can to control trading routs.
Do you have any evidence to back up that China has been controlling trading routes in ocean territory that it already has? I ask because I disagree with you. I think China just wants the underwater oil deposits, not that they are going to start interfering with trade.
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On September 17 2012 02:59 fatfail wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 02:32 Pseudoku wrote:On September 17 2012 02:26 fatfail wrote:On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea? Correct, China cant do shit. Their economy would crumble and their navy is terrible anyways. The commanders are incompetent and the soldiers aren't disciplined. You're welcome to keep believing that. Being Chinese I think I'm unbiased and knowledgeable about the situation. If they were truly confident in their naval ability and their economy could sustain outright combat with the japanese, why haven't they taken back the islands with their supposedly invincible military power?
Way to make the China and America look bad at once. I guess this kinda evens it out?
The people here are discussing how long before (or whether) China can take on America and you think they can't even fight Japan.
My face hurts.
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On September 17 2012 02:57 Immutant wrote:
Isn't most of America's fleet/army in the Middle East?
Take a look at the map, at China's size vs Japan and their proximity. If China went all out (zerg Japan with a few million soldiers - remember that Japan's military might is constricted by WWII protocols), and quickly subdue Japan, the US will probably not be able to do anything (since Japan as its base is taken over). The US can probably do more if it is a protracted war, but then the situation would be even worst for the region and the world.
Japan: SDF
Military units (from wiki)
The JSDF numbered 239,430 in 2005 with 147,737 in the Ground Self-Defense Force, 44,327 in the Maritime Self-Defense Force, 45,517 in the Air Self-Defense Force, and 1,849 in the Joint Staff Office. Reserves numbered 57,899.[11]
Five armies,
Five maritime districts, and
Three air defense forces
China: PLA
The PLA is the world's largest military force, with approximately 3 million members, and has the world's largest (active) standing army, with approximately 2.25 million members. The PLA comprises five main service branches, consisting of the PLA Ground Force, PLA Navy (PLAN), PLA Air Force (PLAAF), Second Artillery Corps (strategic missile force), and the PLA Reserve Force.
China may not be able to zerg the US, but they CAN zerg Japan. What happens afterwards is rather complex and depressing to contemplate.
E.G, US and other countries lose will to fight and decide to maintain economic situation
vs
continue to fight...
As a resident in SE Asia, the situation is particularly worrying...
don't forget american bases are all over the place as well ... in Japan alone there are 35.000 american troops.
It is not that simple.
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On September 17 2012 03:12 Ventris wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 03:08 SayGen wrote:
Being Chinese I think I'm unbiased and knowledgeable about the situation. If they were truly confident in their naval ability and their economy could sustain outright combat with the japanese, why haven't they taken back the islands with their supposedly invincible military power?
Why take it now, it will be cheaper to take it as America continues to decline. The relatiation is too costly now, but it won't be in the future. This. The PRC is buying internal stability with economic success. They will only take the islands if the costs are manageable and the fallout doesn't risk their exports.
Nope. The issue has been blown so out of proportion that it's no longer a question of risk vs. reward, but national pride. The media have perpetuated this issue to such a point where failure would imply the government backing down, something they simply won't do.
Been living in China for the past 2 weeks. This issue is almost all they talk about anymore on the News Channel, 24/7
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On September 17 2012 02:59 fatfail wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 02:32 Pseudoku wrote:On September 17 2012 02:26 fatfail wrote:On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea? Correct, China cant do shit. Their economy would crumble and their navy is terrible anyways. The commanders are incompetent and the soldiers aren't disciplined. You're welcome to keep believing that. Being Chinese I think I'm unbiased and knowledgeable about the situation. If they were truly confident in their naval ability and their economy could sustain outright combat with the japanese, why haven't they taken back the islands with their supposedly invincible military power?
I would say the only thing holding back China is international diplomacy. Taking disputed islands vs Japan by force is nowhere near acceptable level as a member of international community. China is not that strong yet. When China gets bigger, and literally becomes the super power of the world, then they might consider it as an option. 2012 is too early for that in the face of mighty US.
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On September 17 2012 03:15 Ryhzuo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 03:12 Ventris wrote:On September 17 2012 03:08 SayGen wrote:
Being Chinese I think I'm unbiased and knowledgeable about the situation. If they were truly confident in their naval ability and their economy could sustain outright combat with the japanese, why haven't they taken back the islands with their supposedly invincible military power?
Why take it now, it will be cheaper to take it as America continues to decline. The relatiation is too costly now, but it won't be in the future. This. The PRC is buying internal stability with economic success. They will only take the islands if the costs are manageable and the fallout doesn't risk their exports. Nope. The issue has been blown so out of proportion that it's no longer a question of risk vs. reward, but national pride. The media have perpetuated this issue to such a point where failure would imply the government backing down, something they simply won't do. Been living in China for the past 2 weeks. This issue is almost all they talk about anymore on the News Channel, 24/7
Then the KP screwed it up. May be a result of their current internal power struggle.
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On September 17 2012 02:51 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 02:50 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 02:40 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:37 Azarkon wrote:On September 17 2012 02:35 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:26 fatfail wrote:On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea? Correct, China cant do shit. Their economy would crumble and their navy is terrible anyways. The commanders are incompetent and the soldiers aren't disciplined. You Sir, are completly wrong, as a fellow countryman I'll try to explain this to you. China holds one of the few economies in the world that are least impacted by global affairs. China contorls China's economy. They make everything they need, and own(not buy) resources around the world that arn't found in China. Their commanders are VERY loyal, and highly trained. Maybe not as much as USA or Japan/EU but to say they are incompetent is FOOLISH. Americans... I'd like to apologise to the TL community- I promise we arn't all arogant, and do support the greater good. Some of us are just a little too full-of-ourselves. The only true thing you said is that China's soliders arn't disiplined. This is true- they pretty much hand them guns and say go. but with a population of 1BILLION+ you don't need disipline you just need them to run and ZERG their prey. For a person who served in the military you sure don't know modern warfare very well. Saying that the Chinese are just going to ZERG their way to victory is... I'm sorry. I guess you missed what a Chinese lead Navial Admiral said about the brand new STEALTH US cruiser. I'm paraphrazing: We wno't bother trying to defeat it's EWSs we will just grab a bunch of small boats with bombs and throw them at the cruiser. We win the cost battle 1000 to 1. They will ZERG. as well as engage in modern warfare techniques. They can and WILL do BOTH. A capability we don't have. China has more men than we do bullets/bombs/rockets Never forget that. I remember the last time China conducted naval exercises in the Taiwan Strait, America's response was to stage their own. The PRC naval admiral claimed that while the United States has vastly superior technology (particularly addressing the presence of the USS Independence and the USS George Washington, a super-carrier), that it only takes a fishing boat full of explosives to incapacitate its maritime capabilities. Of course the PRC naval admiral is going to try to downplay the strength of the US. That fishing boat would never be able to reach either ship.
One fishing boat may not, but many more can get through.
I believe that the reference was to the US' new stealth warship DDG-1000 (which cost like 7 billion USD each), which can be easily overwhelmed by fishing boats (how many fishing boats and explosives can you get for 7 billion USD?).
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On September 17 2012 03:13 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 03:09 semantics wrote:On September 17 2012 03:06 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 02:54 Shady Sands wrote:On September 17 2012 02:50 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 02:40 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:37 Azarkon wrote:On September 17 2012 02:35 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:26 fatfail wrote:On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea? Correct, China cant do shit. Their economy would crumble and their navy is terrible anyways. The commanders are incompetent and the soldiers aren't disciplined. You Sir, are completly wrong, as a fellow countryman I'll try to explain this to you. China holds one of the few economies in the world that are least impacted by global affairs. China contorls China's economy. They make everything they need, and own(not buy) resources around the world that arn't found in China. Their commanders are VERY loyal, and highly trained. Maybe not as much as USA or Japan/EU but to say they are incompetent is FOOLISH. Americans... I'd like to apologise to the TL community- I promise we arn't all arogant, and do support the greater good. Some of us are just a little too full-of-ourselves. The only true thing you said is that China's soliders arn't disiplined. This is true- they pretty much hand them guns and say go. but with a population of 1BILLION+ you don't need disipline you just need them to run and ZERG their prey. For a person who served in the military you sure don't know modern warfare very well. Saying that the Chinese are just going to ZERG their way to victory is... I'm sorry. I guess you missed what a Chinese lead Navial Admiral said about the brand new STEALTH US cruiser. I'm paraphrazing: We wno't bother trying to defeat it's EWSs we will just grab a bunch of small boats with bombs and throw them at the cruiser. We win the cost battle 1000 to 1. They will ZERG. as well as engage in modern warfare techniques. They can and WILL do BOTH. A capability we don't have. China has more men than we do bullets/bombs/rockets Never forget that. I remember the last time China conducted naval exercises in the Taiwan Strait, America's response was to stage their own. The PRC naval admiral claimed that while the United States has vastly superior technology (particularly addressing the presence of the USS Independence and the USS George Washington, a super-carrier), that it only takes a fishing boat full of explosives to incapacitate its maritime capabilities. Complete huffing and puffing by the PLAN. The Western Pacific is freaking huge, and to actually find the US 7th Fleet and follow-on forces in that haystack, and get a fishing boat in position, would be a herculean task. That being said, there are ways to incapacitate the 7th Fleet without striking at the ships themselves. For example, engaging in massive electronic warfare against the satellite links that keep the 7th Fleet linked to the rest of the US defense network, or sabotaging the port facilities during a routine port visit so that the big super-carrier can't leave harbor, etc. Agreed. But I tend to read between the lines, and I realized that this guy is in command of the freaking PRC fleet. His comment, while absurd in itself, totally shows how he's aware of China's ability to fight a war of attrition. It's something the US can't afford. On September 17 2012 02:45 Taku wrote:
Sigh another China thread degrades into discussing a pissing contest between USA and China. There was such a good discussion about the actual event and underlying reasons earlier... Discussing America's strengths, in relation to China, is definitely relevant when discussing Sino-Japanese relations. Not really, china is allowing and promoting the protests as a show of nationalism but china isn't stupid it's not going to bother with military ventures for a long time off. Zeesh this is just psudo barging attempts to get a resource rich part of the ocean, china for a long time has been trying to obtain as much ocean territory as it can to control trading routs. Do you have any evidence to back up that China has been controlling trading routes in ocean territory that it already has? I ask because I disagree with you. I think China just wants the underwater oil deposits, not that they are going to start interfering with trade.
In this particular territory dispute it's largely over resources, but the majority of the other disputes is over shipping lanes. They don't necessarily want to disrupt shipping they just want to be able to control it if they want to do something. =p Like any nation controlling the waters near your ports is something you want. Japan is far from the only nation claiming Territorials over water in the region and fighting china over it.
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On September 17 2012 03:17 Pseudoku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 02:51 Voltaire wrote:On September 17 2012 02:50 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 02:40 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:37 Azarkon wrote:On September 17 2012 02:35 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:26 fatfail wrote:On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea? Correct, China cant do shit. Their economy would crumble and their navy is terrible anyways. The commanders are incompetent and the soldiers aren't disciplined. You Sir, are completly wrong, as a fellow countryman I'll try to explain this to you. China holds one of the few economies in the world that are least impacted by global affairs. China contorls China's economy. They make everything they need, and own(not buy) resources around the world that arn't found in China. Their commanders are VERY loyal, and highly trained. Maybe not as much as USA or Japan/EU but to say they are incompetent is FOOLISH. Americans... I'd like to apologise to the TL community- I promise we arn't all arogant, and do support the greater good. Some of us are just a little too full-of-ourselves. The only true thing you said is that China's soliders arn't disiplined. This is true- they pretty much hand them guns and say go. but with a population of 1BILLION+ you don't need disipline you just need them to run and ZERG their prey. For a person who served in the military you sure don't know modern warfare very well. Saying that the Chinese are just going to ZERG their way to victory is... I'm sorry. I guess you missed what a Chinese lead Navial Admiral said about the brand new STEALTH US cruiser. I'm paraphrazing: We wno't bother trying to defeat it's EWSs we will just grab a bunch of small boats with bombs and throw them at the cruiser. We win the cost battle 1000 to 1. They will ZERG. as well as engage in modern warfare techniques. They can and WILL do BOTH. A capability we don't have. China has more men than we do bullets/bombs/rockets Never forget that. I remember the last time China conducted naval exercises in the Taiwan Strait, America's response was to stage their own. The PRC naval admiral claimed that while the United States has vastly superior technology (particularly addressing the presence of the USS Independence and the USS George Washington, a super-carrier), that it only takes a fishing boat full of explosives to incapacitate its maritime capabilities. Of course the PRC naval admiral is going to try to downplay the strength of the US. That fishing boat would never be able to reach either ship. One fishing boat may not, but many more can get through. I believe that the reference was to the US' new stealth warship DDG-1000 (which cost like 7 billion USD each), which can be easily overwhelmed by fishing boats (how many fishing boats and explosives can you get for 7 billion USD?).
And how are fishing boats going to find a stealth warship?
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On September 17 2012 03:14 Gaga wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 02:57 Immutant wrote:
Isn't most of America's fleet/army in the Middle East?
Take a look at the map, at China's size vs Japan and their proximity. If China went all out (zerg Japan with a few million soldiers - remember that Japan's military might is constricted by WWII protocols), and quickly subdue Japan, the US will probably not be able to do anything (since Japan as its base is taken over). The US can probably do more if it is a protracted war, but then the situation would be even worst for the region and the world.
Japan: SDF
Military units (from wiki)
The JSDF numbered 239,430 in 2005 with 147,737 in the Ground Self-Defense Force, 44,327 in the Maritime Self-Defense Force, 45,517 in the Air Self-Defense Force, and 1,849 in the Joint Staff Office. Reserves numbered 57,899.[11]
Five armies,
Five maritime districts, and
Three air defense forces
China: PLA
The PLA is the world's largest military force, with approximately 3 million members, and has the world's largest (active) standing army, with approximately 2.25 million members. The PLA comprises five main service branches, consisting of the PLA Ground Force, PLA Navy (PLAN), PLA Air Force (PLAAF), Second Artillery Corps (strategic missile force), and the PLA Reserve Force.
China may not be able to zerg the US, but they CAN zerg Japan. What happens afterwards is rather complex and depressing to contemplate.
E.G, US and other countries lose will to fight and decide to maintain economic situation
vs
continue to fight...
As a resident in SE Asia, the situation is particularly worrying... don't forget american bases are all over the place as well ... in Japan alone there are 35.000 american troops. It is not that simple.
Those numers are wrong. Japan+Okinawa= ~30,000
We are also losing another 2K marines, who just got transfered to Guam.
Though I personally, think it's a good idea to pull back deeper into the Pacifc.
This way when China launches outward we have more time to assess, and prepare our engagements.
Also if we can get the fighting mid pacific we will have a massive advantage, but this all backfires if China only takes Japan/Korea and doens't push into US. If that happens we have to be the ones who assult via amphibious assult, a feat we havn't had to do in mass since WWII. Though it's possible we could Island hop like we did in WWII and attempt to resource block- but China would know this and store extra supplies.
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On September 17 2012 03:07 SayGen wrote:Show nested quote +
China is a resource poor country. They are limited by things besides population. China's population also isn't growing that fast - their fertility rate is below that of replacement level, and the one child policy has wrecked their military age population base.
China won't be able to take fights at higher cost ratios for very long. They're able to do so to drive a couple of US carrier groups away from their side of the Pacific, yes, but beyond that they are not capable of taking on the West, and in my opinion won't ever be able to take on the West.
This isn't true- at all. They have been buying large amount of land in forgein lands that contain precious metals. Most of which are believed to be used primarly in the manufacturing of supercomputer chips/circuit boards What little they don't have in China they can afford to buy-- and they are. Population can be redirected in 2 decades. In fact, the repeal of the 3rd child law might be one of many tale-tale signs of potiential military aggression.
None of what I said are wrong. You're just trying to divert the topic to potential advantages that China is able to gain - but which they aren't exactly gaining, because there is no way to argue that their purchases in other countries are defensible - because they have no global presence - nor is there a way to argue that their fertility rate is just going to suddenly come back up when East Asian countries with NO one child policy have been dropping for decades.
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Zerging carrier task forces is old news. The US Navy's known about it for years and has come up with some kind of doctrine that it thinks will handle it. The Japanese did the same thing in WW2, they didn't just use kamikaze planes and submarines, they used boats as well. Lay down a lot fire and you stop almost all of them.
And a war with China would be for keeps. If they sink a carrier or four, we wouldn't quit.
And, because a war with China would be for keeps, that's why neither side will start one. China's never going to become so much more powerful than the US and our allies that they could just sweep us back to Hawaii and Australia no problem. China will become so strong that it won't be possible to beat her except in a total war scenario that is not ever going to be a possibility.
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On September 17 2012 03:17 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 03:17 Pseudoku wrote:On September 17 2012 02:51 Voltaire wrote:On September 17 2012 02:50 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 02:40 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:37 Azarkon wrote:On September 17 2012 02:35 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:26 fatfail wrote:On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea? Correct, China cant do shit. Their economy would crumble and their navy is terrible anyways. The commanders are incompetent and the soldiers aren't disciplined. You Sir, are completly wrong, as a fellow countryman I'll try to explain this to you. China holds one of the few economies in the world that are least impacted by global affairs. China contorls China's economy. They make everything they need, and own(not buy) resources around the world that arn't found in China. Their commanders are VERY loyal, and highly trained. Maybe not as much as USA or Japan/EU but to say they are incompetent is FOOLISH. Americans... I'd like to apologise to the TL community- I promise we arn't all arogant, and do support the greater good. Some of us are just a little too full-of-ourselves. The only true thing you said is that China's soliders arn't disiplined. This is true- they pretty much hand them guns and say go. but with a population of 1BILLION+ you don't need disipline you just need them to run and ZERG their prey. For a person who served in the military you sure don't know modern warfare very well. Saying that the Chinese are just going to ZERG their way to victory is... I'm sorry. I guess you missed what a Chinese lead Navial Admiral said about the brand new STEALTH US cruiser. I'm paraphrazing: We wno't bother trying to defeat it's EWSs we will just grab a bunch of small boats with bombs and throw them at the cruiser. We win the cost battle 1000 to 1. They will ZERG. as well as engage in modern warfare techniques. They can and WILL do BOTH. A capability we don't have. China has more men than we do bullets/bombs/rockets Never forget that. I remember the last time China conducted naval exercises in the Taiwan Strait, America's response was to stage their own. The PRC naval admiral claimed that while the United States has vastly superior technology (particularly addressing the presence of the USS Independence and the USS George Washington, a super-carrier), that it only takes a fishing boat full of explosives to incapacitate its maritime capabilities. Of course the PRC naval admiral is going to try to downplay the strength of the US. That fishing boat would never be able to reach either ship. One fishing boat may not, but many more can get through. I believe that the reference was to the US' new stealth warship DDG-1000 (which cost like 7 billion USD each), which can be easily overwhelmed by fishing boats (how many fishing boats and explosives can you get for 7 billion USD?). And how are fishing boats going to find a stealth warship?
Google maps:
You can see EVERY ship on the ocean in LIVE TIME.
Welcome to 2012-- we have satalites.
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On September 17 2012 03:17 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 03:17 Pseudoku wrote:On September 17 2012 02:51 Voltaire wrote:On September 17 2012 02:50 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 02:40 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:37 Azarkon wrote:On September 17 2012 02:35 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:26 fatfail wrote:On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea? Correct, China cant do shit. Their economy would crumble and their navy is terrible anyways. The commanders are incompetent and the soldiers aren't disciplined. You Sir, are completly wrong, as a fellow countryman I'll try to explain this to you. China holds one of the few economies in the world that are least impacted by global affairs. China contorls China's economy. They make everything they need, and own(not buy) resources around the world that arn't found in China. Their commanders are VERY loyal, and highly trained. Maybe not as much as USA or Japan/EU but to say they are incompetent is FOOLISH. Americans... I'd like to apologise to the TL community- I promise we arn't all arogant, and do support the greater good. Some of us are just a little too full-of-ourselves. The only true thing you said is that China's soliders arn't disiplined. This is true- they pretty much hand them guns and say go. but with a population of 1BILLION+ you don't need disipline you just need them to run and ZERG their prey. For a person who served in the military you sure don't know modern warfare very well. Saying that the Chinese are just going to ZERG their way to victory is... I'm sorry. I guess you missed what a Chinese lead Navial Admiral said about the brand new STEALTH US cruiser. I'm paraphrazing: We wno't bother trying to defeat it's EWSs we will just grab a bunch of small boats with bombs and throw them at the cruiser. We win the cost battle 1000 to 1. They will ZERG. as well as engage in modern warfare techniques. They can and WILL do BOTH. A capability we don't have. China has more men than we do bullets/bombs/rockets Never forget that. I remember the last time China conducted naval exercises in the Taiwan Strait, America's response was to stage their own. The PRC naval admiral claimed that while the United States has vastly superior technology (particularly addressing the presence of the USS Independence and the USS George Washington, a super-carrier), that it only takes a fishing boat full of explosives to incapacitate its maritime capabilities. Of course the PRC naval admiral is going to try to downplay the strength of the US. That fishing boat would never be able to reach either ship. One fishing boat may not, but many more can get through. I believe that the reference was to the US' new stealth warship DDG-1000 (which cost like 7 billion USD each), which can be easily overwhelmed by fishing boats (how many fishing boats and explosives can you get for 7 billion USD?). And how are fishing boats going to find a stealth warship?
Scan from Orbital.
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On September 17 2012 03:17 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 03:17 Pseudoku wrote:On September 17 2012 02:51 Voltaire wrote:On September 17 2012 02:50 Xpace wrote:On September 17 2012 02:40 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:37 Azarkon wrote:On September 17 2012 02:35 SayGen wrote:On September 17 2012 02:26 fatfail wrote:On September 17 2012 02:23 Xpace wrote:I remember seeing this painting in a French art magazine when I was living in Toronto back in 2006, by an expatriate Chinese in Canada. Titled "2008 Beijing", in commemoration of the 2008 Summer Olympic games held in Beijing, the painting was chock full of imagery and hidden meanings underneath the art. Many people, especially Chinese-Canadians and Chinese-Americans found it to be an excellent interpretation of the political situation in the Far East, particularly from a Chinese perspective. "2008 Beijing" by Liu Yi Firstly, the girl wearing a traditional article of Chinese lingerie with her hand in a fruit bowl represents Taiwan. The four mahjong players also represent countries – America faces the viewer, and opposite America is China. To the right, the reclining girl is Russia, and to the left, naked and scrutinising her tiles, is Japan. The image depicts the situation facing Taiwan, but Taiwan herself is not at the table. Only the four players of America, China, Japan and Russia will determine the outcome of this game. The skies beyond the window are dark and unsettled, as is the current situation. The clothing the four girls at the table are wearing expresses their respective strengths. America is in a strong position being fully clothed, and confidently watches Taiwan for a chance to strike without being overly concerned about the state of the game. Russia lies languidly with one leg resting on America, and an arm outstretched to China, stealthily assisting China with her concealed tiles. But Russia has no real interest in Taiwan, and her tiles are not strong. She is only interested in exploiting the Taiwan situation to her advantage, sympathising with America whilst selling weapons to China. China herself is half-naked, much of her body and clothing obscured from view by the table, preventing anyone from seeing how strong she is. One of her tiles is “East,” representing the DF-31 “East Wind” long range missile (ICBM). China also keeps some of her tiles hidden behind her, ready for any change in the game. Just how strong she really is, nobody knows. On the left, the naked girl is Japan. She has no clothes at all – she is the weakest of the four. She scrutinizes her tiles intently, completely oblivious to the artful tricks the other players are employing. Japan only conceives of the Taiwan issue in terms of how she can gain regional power – she is blind to the global aspect of the game. Whilst she may have a good hand, little does she realize the game will not be won through tiles alone. On China’s shoulder is a tattoo – the Fenghuang, or “Chinese phoenix.” This signifies the fact that in China traditional culture runs only skin deep – she is otherwise just the same as the west. On the contrary, it is Taiwan, with her traditional attire, who is the real heir to Chinese culture. Taiwan holds a fruit knife, but it is of no use in a game of mahjong and she cannot bring it to bear. All she can do is hold onto her fruit as the game plays out. This is probably off-topic when discussing about the issue of the Chinese riots, but after reading several posts arguing about America, Japan and China's position in the Far East, especially those with TL ID's from China saying "fuck Japan" and those from Japan saying "history is history, move on", I couldn't fathom how either side can't seem to look past emotions, or whatever the hell is motivating them to spout such ignorant nonsense. TL;DR: China can't do shit to Japan. They're not in a position to do whatever they want, at least not yet - it's in their best interests to keep things 'cool'. They need Japan. Korea needs Japan. Both countries (the people) hate Japan, but the 1% knows what's up. America's too smart to get their hands dirty, it's not in their best interests to piss off China, especially when it's Japan that's the target - it's not like the Chinese are preparing to invade Japan. Japan is the most insignificant of the three, they have no muscles to flex, yet their overinflated pride doesn't exactly allow them to concede, and even if they do, will that really quell the anti-Japanese sentiment in China/Korea? Correct, China cant do shit. Their economy would crumble and their navy is terrible anyways. The commanders are incompetent and the soldiers aren't disciplined. You Sir, are completly wrong, as a fellow countryman I'll try to explain this to you. China holds one of the few economies in the world that are least impacted by global affairs. China contorls China's economy. They make everything they need, and own(not buy) resources around the world that arn't found in China. Their commanders are VERY loyal, and highly trained. Maybe not as much as USA or Japan/EU but to say they are incompetent is FOOLISH. Americans... I'd like to apologise to the TL community- I promise we arn't all arogant, and do support the greater good. Some of us are just a little too full-of-ourselves. The only true thing you said is that China's soliders arn't disiplined. This is true- they pretty much hand them guns and say go. but with a population of 1BILLION+ you don't need disipline you just need them to run and ZERG their prey. For a person who served in the military you sure don't know modern warfare very well. Saying that the Chinese are just going to ZERG their way to victory is... I'm sorry. I guess you missed what a Chinese lead Navial Admiral said about the brand new STEALTH US cruiser. I'm paraphrazing: We wno't bother trying to defeat it's EWSs we will just grab a bunch of small boats with bombs and throw them at the cruiser. We win the cost battle 1000 to 1. They will ZERG. as well as engage in modern warfare techniques. They can and WILL do BOTH. A capability we don't have. China has more men than we do bullets/bombs/rockets Never forget that. I remember the last time China conducted naval exercises in the Taiwan Strait, America's response was to stage their own. The PRC naval admiral claimed that while the United States has vastly superior technology (particularly addressing the presence of the USS Independence and the USS George Washington, a super-carrier), that it only takes a fishing boat full of explosives to incapacitate its maritime capabilities. Of course the PRC naval admiral is going to try to downplay the strength of the US. That fishing boat would never be able to reach either ship. One fishing boat may not, but many more can get through. I believe that the reference was to the US' new stealth warship DDG-1000 (which cost like 7 billion USD each), which can be easily overwhelmed by fishing boats (how many fishing boats and explosives can you get for 7 billion USD?). And how are fishing boats going to find a stealth warship?
Do you think its actually invisible? It just needs to be spotted once at any point in time, to know its position for the rest of the war.
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EPT
