Taliban insurgents killed 17 Afghan civilians Sunday and beheaded as many as 15 of them in the southern province of Helmand, officials said Monday. But the circumstance of their deaths was sharply disputed.
One version said they’d been killed because they’d attended a party where women danced with men. But others scoffed at the idea, saying women would not have been dancing in such a conservative area of Afghanistan.
“It is not possible to sing a song in a Taliban-controlled area – let alone have dancing, and especially women dancing,” said Daoud Ahmadi, a spokesman for Helmand’s governor.
Even the location of the killings was uncertain. Afghanistan’s Interior Ministry said in a statement that armed Taliban had “opened fire and beheaded” the civilians – including two women – in Helmand’s Kajaki district, a version with which Ahmadi agreed.
But Haji Abdul Wahab, a tribal elder from the neighboring Musa Qala district, told McClatchy that the killings had occurred in his district, not Kajaki, though he, too, dismissed the idea that the victims were at a late-night celebration with music and dancing.
“It is not possible to have a dancing party in conservative Helmand province,” Wahab said. “Helmand is a Pashtun province, and it’s taboo to have women dancing here.” Pashtuns are the dominant ethnic group in the region.
Still, the killings prompted widespread condemnation among local and foreign officials. The United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan described the slayings of the 17 civilians as “gruesome” and “reprehensible.”
“This criminal act is unjustifiable and totally disregards the sanctity of human life,” the mission said a statement.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai also condemned what a statement from his office called a “massacre” and “an unforgiveable act.”
U.S. Marine Gen. John R. Allen, commander of the International Security Assistance Force, as the NATO coalition in Afghanistan is formally known, called the killers cowards who had targeted innocent men and women.
“This callous act clearly demonstrates the insurgents’ willingness to stop at nothing in terrorizing civilians,” Allen said.
But what precisely had happened remained unknown. Ahmadi said that he could not confirm how many of the victims had been beheaded and how many shot, and he said the motive behind the killings was not clear. He said that Afghan intelligence agencies were trying to gather accurate information, and that the dance party rumor was just one of many
“There was also a rumor this morning that the murdered people were accused of spying for the government – that that is why they were killed,” he said. “There was a rumor that it was a boys’ party in which the boys had worn girls’ dresses and were dancing. There was another rumor that these people were killed in retaliation for the death of Taliban’s commanders. These were all rumors.”
Wahab, the Musa Qala tribal elder, said that the claims that the killings were sparked by a dance party were “propaganda” and “absolutely false.”
In an interview with McClatchy, he offered what arguably may be the most plausible account of the motives behind the killings. He said that 15 of those murdered were male prisoners of the Taliban related to Afghan government officials and were beheaded in retaliation after three Taliban commanders were killed a few days ago at Musa Qala in a coalition airstrike.
A statement from the Helmand governor’s office on Saturday had confirmed the death that day of three Taliban commanders in a coalition airstrike at Musa Qala.
“While the (insurgents) were beheading the men, two women from the village, who were between 60 to 70 years old, came out of their homes and started screaming for the Taliban not to kill them,” said Wahab. “But the Taliban shot those two women and beheaded the 15 prisoners.”
tldr: Taliban Islamist insurgents beheaded 17 civilians, including two women, who were holding a party with music in a southern Afghanistan village. Officials said that Afghan intelligence agencies were trying to gather accurate information, and that the dance party as the reason for the beheading rumor was just one of many. Many scoff at the idea, saying women would not have been dancing in such a conservative area of Afghanistan. Local leaders say it is not possible to sing a song in a Taliban-controlled area – let alone have dancing, and especially women dancing.
Ok. Now. I am not very familiar with Afgan culture and tradition. And I have not had the pleasure of having read on Taliban and terrorist laws. But when is dancing and singing a justifiable reason to behead anyone? Again, there might be cultural nuances that are lost on an American like me, but please explain these laws and how the beheadings are justified. And why are authorities never clear and never have complete reliable information on things like this. I'm listening.
People are killed everyday for no reason. Terrorists kill innocent people, armies all over the world kill innocent people, and some cultures just don't have our extreme respect for life.
On August 28 2012 09:14 iNbluE wrote: People are killed everyday for no reason. Terrorists kill innocent people, armies all over the world kill innocent people, and some cultures just don't have our extreme respect for life.
*For human life.
I think this is just a media strike to reignite the hate towards those terrorists. 17 dead are nothing special in afghanistan right now. It's really sad this stuff happens all the time though.
law are flexible in Afghanistan. It gets made, applied and executed by the party which is the strongest in the respective region. Upper echelon taliban somehow developed the idea that music is bad. So anybody who listens to music risks his live. Authorities are never clear because they have no say in south Afghanistan.
Karzai (afghan president) gets called major of Kabul in many areas of the country and that's for a reason. To make it clear, government often has no reliable information regarding such things because there are no reliable government institutions in the area. State governors usually work together with the taliban.
Hmm...I really don't think the dancing and music was the reason for the attack. I am more compel to side with McClatchy argument that it was a retaliation that was not compelled by religious reason but more like revenge.
On August 28 2012 09:14 Verator wrote: First of all, its not really laws, its religious text.
And dancing is a sin, their text says sins should be punished with death, so they kill them.
Its the same as if people actually followed the old testament's commands in the bible.
Have you got a source or a quote from the Quran that says punish sins with death? I would very much like to see that.
It's not an actual religious law, more like something, taliban decided to force in as a law, and it's been working, people down there, are scared to death, by 'laws' like that, and been so for along time. Which is why ISAF NATO forces sometimes bring loudspeakers down to greenzone, and play music, to taunt the taliban.
It's called sharia law, and it's not very flexible.
It's easy to condemn a people and its culture for its shortcomings and (extreme) cultural differences; it's quite another to do something about it. The American government is already walking an incredibly thin line, a line in which there is very little gray area as interventionist policy seems to have a polarizing effect upon not only the American constituency, but the international community as a whole. There are those who applaud the United States for setting a standard of intolerance toward forces of injustice such as genocide and political subjugation, and there are others who condem us for mettling in the affairs of other nations and, in their view, making the situation worse than it previously was.
My bias is inherent, and I won't try to dispute it. Do I think this is a travesty? Absolutely. Do I think the United States has, from a historical perspective as well as in the contemporary context, had a duty and/or obligation to intervene and restore order? Possibly. But do I think we possess the resources to extend our hand further throughout the Middle East?
Absolutely not. The military component of America's hard power is unquestionably suited for the task, but its economic sustainability is largely at risk. This, combined with other, more subtle forces of soft power, such as cultural influence and international integrity, creates an unfavorable situation in which the risks are far greater than any potential reward.
On August 28 2012 09:14 Verator wrote: First of all, its not really laws, its religious text.
And dancing is a sin, their text says sins should be punished with death, so they kill them.
Its the same as if people actually followed the old testament's commands in the bible.
Have you got a source or a quote from the Quran that says punish sins with death? I would very much like to see that.
But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty.
i guess in their (fundamentalists) wicked mind they interprete dancing as "misleading men away from the path of allah" and u can guess for yourself what the humiliating penalty is, well its the quran so guess.
of course not 100%, but that passage is quoted a couple of times when quran/dancing comes up. makes kinda "sense" aswell.
oh ur only asking for quotes that say punish sins with death?
5:33 "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger ... will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom."
4:15 "As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them."
"The Prophet said, "The prescribed Law of Allah is the equality in punishment (i.e. Al-Qisas)." (In cases of murders, etc.) (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)), Volume 6, Book 60, Number 26)"
On August 28 2012 09:14 Verator wrote: First of all, its not really laws, its religious text.
And dancing is a sin, their text says sins should be punished with death, so they kill them.
Its the same as if people actually followed the old testament's commands in the bible.
Have you got a source or a quote from the Quran that says punish sins with death? I would very much like to see that.
There isn't anything that says to do so, but these people have a very different interpretation as they are very uneducated. They feel that everyone who does anything they dont like equates to an act of war, and even then they ignore the laws of war. My friend has been there, he said its like a no mans land, Karzai has no control outside his own city.
Edit
"But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty."
The 'Humiliating penalty' is not something that is meant to be applied by human hands, rather it is in the afterlife. That doesnt mean you run around chopping heads like some savage. A better translation is "And some people buy words for mere playing that they may mislead from the path of Allah without knowledgeand to make fun of it. For them are the humiliating torments."
Other use of humiliating penalty/punishment
"And when We decreed for Solomon death, nothing indicated to the jinn his death except a creature of the earth eating his staff. But when he fell, it became clear to the jinn that if they had known the unseen, they would not have remained in humiliating punishment. (34.14)"
And now let the bashing of Islam and Sharia begin. People use the Sharia the same way people use the Bible, they pick and choose. Muhammad Yunus uses the Sharia to justify giving to the poor and women's rights. Taliban uses it for persecution of those who are not like them.
And quote the Quaran all you want, but I personally put more blame on the individual rather than the religion.
On August 28 2012 10:37 Sickkiee wrote: Oh god you're not allowed to dance? Is there a specific reasoning behind that as I am not well versed in the arts of the Qu'ran or Sharia/Taliban law.
Yeah, and music isn't allowed either, they believe it's too vulgar and shallow, and that allah does not approve of it. Also it is just a mentally way of supressing the locals. Though they do love whenever ISAF vehicles play a little song in their presence (the locals) and they have an hysterically funny way of dancing
Though initial reports of Monday's killings say the 17 victims were beheaded for taking part in a mixed-gender party in the southern Helmand province, officials now say the deaths may have been the result of a rivalry between two Taliban commanders over the two women in the troubled Musa Qala district.
I love how the official responses basically say "oh yeah 17 people were beheaded, no big deal. But we want to make it absolutely clear that it wasn't because women danced. That would NEVER happen in our district!"
It was time to get out with a month of invading. All that needed to be done in that country was destroy terrorist bases, devastate the Taliban government and capture Osama bin Laden. Now all we're doing is allowing our soldiers to be murdered by the people they train while the Afghans use their democracy to vehemently reject freedom and Western values. Get out of Afghanistan and go after the real sponsors of terrorism and war against the West.
Some reports are saying that those beheaded were believe to be talbian spies by the taliban. Dancing/Mingling may not have been the underlying reason...
Another BBC report says that they were government workers
"The BBC's Quentin Somerville, in the capital Kabul, says some reports suggest the 17 were killed because they were local government workers."
On August 28 2012 09:14 iNbluE wrote: People are killed everyday for no reason. Terrorists kill innocent people, armies all over the world kill innocent people, and some cultures just don't have our extreme respect for life.
*For human life.
I think this is just a media strike to reignite the hate towards those terrorists. 17 dead are nothing special in afghanistan right now. It's really sad this stuff happens all the time though.
the difference is that these people think they are going to be rewarded in the afterlife for killing these people because their special book says that it's okay
I don't care why they were beheaded. No matter what they did or who they are, this is really crazy. Getting decapitated/beheaded is just straight up torture. Unfortunately I have seen some of those beheading videos (uncut) and it's really rough to watch. Their capital punishment is gruesome...
You need to understand that for these people, heaven and hell are very literal threats. They don't treat these subjects like they are just ideas that may or may not be true, they can practically taste the sulfur in the air.
What the Taliban does in that regard is no so unique, only that they have the power to execute their policies and take it a great deal further than other denominations.
The logic is a simple one:
This world is temporary, the world beyond is eternal. What we do now will forever seal our fate in the afterworld.
So, if this is what you believe to be a 100% fact, then why on earth would you risk your soul for earthly pleasures? Why would you dance or sing? Music is widely considered "haram" (against Islamic code/ethics), and the same basis is in the hatred of the earthly.
With music, the Taliban isn't that strange. There are a lot of muslim/christian/jew denominations that warn for the threat of music, considering it too subtle to be resisted, and thus Satan's favorite tool to lead people into sin.
The Taliban simply applies this practice to everything from which you can derive earthly enjoyment.
There is a famous book, called the Kite Runner, about the Taliban in Afghanistan, the name being derived from when the Taliban banned kite flying in the country, before that a popular past-time for children and adults.
Other things are simple scriptural bans, like shellfish, but most are grounded in the same reasoning. Hell is real, earthly temptations distract us from our plight to god. A hundred years of suffering is nothing compared to an eternity in hell.
Now, this is the ideological grounding for the Taliban. How far each of the members agrees with it can be questioned, but in general they all adhere to it pretty strictly, simply because it is a maffia-like environment. Either you are with them, or you're against them, and you better show them that you are with them, or else.
The Taliban itself, though, is a peculiar beast.
The defense on their treatment of women is always the same. They beat them to keep them in line, they cover them to protect their integrity, etc, they pretend like they are all about caring for the women, in their own sick and twisted way.
But during their rule, they trafficked women and forced them into sex slavery.
There is just something strange about the Taliban. For everything that it says, it has no moral grounding. It has no real beliefs, it has no convictions or goals. It just crushes the human spirit and kills. It even violates its own beliefs when they don't go far enough in inflicting human suffering. There seems to be no greater goal than to inflict suffering.
And some would argue that we should pull our hands off Afghanistan and let them take over. Sorry girls, hope you like acid to the face, because we need to balance our budget.
An entire generation of Afghan girls are being raised on education. How many of them will avoid a life of intellectual retardation by being given the chance to study? That alone makes the struggle worth it.
I don't care why they were beheaded. No matter what they did or who they are, this is really crazy. Getting decapitated/beheaded is just straight up torture. Unfortunately I have seen some of those beheading videos (uncut) and it's really rough to watch. Their capital punishment is gruesome...
Not that I am planning on either, but I much prefer a guilotine to an electric chair.
Some reports are saying that those beheaded were believe to be talbian spies by the taliban. Dancing/Mingling may not have been the underlying reason...
Another BBC report says that they were government workers
"The BBC's Quentin Somerville, in the capital Kabul, says some reports suggest the 17 were killed because they were local government workers."
It will be hard to have a good discussion with inconsistencies such as this still out there. But regardless, that's a lot of executions, and it's entirely inexcusable.
On August 28 2012 09:14 iNbluE wrote: People are killed everyday for no reason. Terrorists kill innocent people, armies all over the world kill innocent people, and some cultures just don't have our extreme respect for life.
*For human life.
I think this is just a media strike to reignite the hate towards those terrorists. 17 dead are nothing special in afghanistan right now. It's really sad this stuff happens all the time though.
On August 28 2012 09:14 Verator wrote: First of all, its not really laws, its religious text.
And dancing is a sin, their text says sins should be punished with death, so they kill them.
Its the same as if people actually followed the old testament's commands in the bible.
There is no text in Islam that says that singing or dancing is punishable by death. Please don't attribute things to sharia law unless you are absolutely certain of what you are talking about.
On August 28 2012 12:33 Silentness wrote: I don't care why they were beheaded. No matter what they did or who they are, this is really crazy. Getting decapitated/beheaded is just straight up torture. Unfortunately I have seen some of those beheading videos (uncut) and it's really rough to watch. Their capital punishment is gruesome...
While I am in agreement with the opinion of most that it is unspeakable to kill someone with justification from the Qu'ran, I am also pretty sure that beheading is not torture; it is quick and painless; we see it as gruesome because of the visual effect, but the person involved feels nothing. We see it as degrading the body, as an act of barbarism. I am sure though that it is better to be beheaded rather than be stoned to death, or other penalties described and used by muslim extremists.
Also I am sure the taleban mostly use the Qu'ran for political means. They interpret it the best they can to destroy opponents. They seem rather paranoid though ... opponents everywhere.
They just want to spread hate against terrorist, ignoring that US soldiers have killed over a thousand times moer innocent civilians for actually no reason in afghanistan.
17 killed by islamist extreamist? Better make a military campaing against them that will kill 100 000 more people.
RIP dancers.
PS. Not saying that the killing of the 17 was justified, but it was not just dancing, they were also listening to non koranic music, and it was a mixed sex gathering, and neither of those are allowed either acording to the people who did the killing.
On August 28 2012 22:48 Sea_Food wrote: They just want to spread hate against terrorist, ignoring that US soldiers have killed over a thousand times moer innocent civilians for actually no reason.
17 killed by islamist extreamist? Better make a military campaing against them that will kill 100 000 more people.
RIP dancers.
Rest assured that both sides are in the wrong here.
On August 28 2012 22:51 CrtBalorda wrote: Well I guess where I live isnt that bad.
I think.
Its still pretty stupid of them to start dancing if there are laws against it though.
IIRC the law has not pervented what they were doing since 2001, but the people who did the killing support the old law, so what the killers did was illeagal acording to national law, not what the dancers did.
Though initial reports of Monday's killings say the 17 victims were beheaded for taking part in a mixed-gender party in the southern Helmand province, officials now say the deaths may have been the result of a rivalry between two Taliban commanders over the two women in the troubled Musa Qala district.
I still find it weird how so many people are turning this into a religion and/or cultural debate. There are many gangs in america who kill on daily basis aswell, but no one blames the american culture for that. We have some random shootings here in the Netherlands aswell, but no one blames the dutch culture for that.
As soon as something happens in the middle eastern regions, the finger gets pointed to culture. There are plenty of nutjobs in every region, their actions are crazy, unbelievable and i can't comprehend why anyone would do that.
If you say it happens more in the middle east then any other culture, you're wrong, look at Africa, more shit is happening there then in the middle east. They just make sure it doesn't go public as much. Now if you look at this case, you see the government (same culture as where the tragic event happened) is reporting it. This is a very good development. The more crap like this is being made public the sooner it will stop. No one will endorse this except the purpetraiters and their followers.
That being said my sorrow goes the the family of all the victims.
Helmand province is one of the worst in Afghanistan. The coalition forces don't have a great enough presence there to really be effective, and as a result, the Taliban are to this day still operating there. Its not surprising that they are continuing to exert their control through what are most likely scare tactics. Many of them are looking for ways to tell the world that they are still there, and will be back in power once the Americans leave. Here is a fantastic article exploring whats going on in Afghanistan.
On August 28 2012 10:37 Sickkiee wrote: Oh god you're not allowed to dance? Is there a specific reasoning behind that as I am not well versed in the arts of the Qu'ran or Sharia/Taliban law.
It is just called a sin in the Quaran, so the rulers take it to their power to punish how they deem necessary.
It's pretty easy to infer that all organized religion is the work of Satan. What better ploy to turn people away from true faith than to send down "divine" messengers who spread only confusion and malice (and a little bit on NAMBLA to boot)? I mean, Ratzinger even looks like the spitting image of emperor Palpatine.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled wasn't convincing the world he didn't exist, it was founding the Christian, Islamic and Jewish churches to do his bidding.
Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Can't we just remove all religious authority in the world already, the whole gay marriage things is equally as stupid as beheading people for dancing, sure it's not murder but the motives behind it are the same, if a loser like me can see how stupid religious authority in the world is then surely some fuck face in power can.
I tihnk it's sad how we dare judge other countries and their beleifs. How dare we say they are wrong, or 'unprogressed' or in the stone ages.
They have a right to live there and do what they want. They can form their owns laws, they are a sovergein nation and we have no business to tell them anything.
So tried of forgeiners trying to oppress others in the name of 'progress'
'progress' is nothing more than social imperialism.
Oh man, you mean Afghanistan has radical people? This would never happen in America where people do innocent things like worship or watch movies. >_>
I don't see how people are turning this into a religious debate until the people guilty for it use religion to defend it. Even then, Christianity has its fair share of radicals. Futhermore, I'm much more inclined to take the Saudi Arabian guy on Page 2's opinion on this than a whole bunch of baised westerners. I've talked to a few people from Oman and I see nothing but peaceful things coming from the area (minus the radicals).
SayGen said it best.
On August 29 2012 00:40 SayGen wrote: I tihnk it's sad how we dare judge other countries and their beleifs. How dare we say they are wrong, or 'unprogressed' or in the stone ages.
They have a right to live there and do what they want. They can form their owns laws, they are a sovergein nation and we have no business to tell them anything.
So tried of forgeiners trying to oppress others in the name of 'progress'
'progress' is nothing more than social imperialism.
On August 29 2012 00:40 SayGen wrote: I tihnk it's sad how we dare judge other countries and their beleifs. How dare we say they are wrong, or 'unprogressed' or in the stone ages.
They have a right to live there and do what they want. They can form their owns laws, they are a sovergein nation and we have no business to tell them anything.
So tried of forgeiners trying to oppress others in the name of 'progress'
'progress' is nothing more than social imperialism.
I for one am in favor of this "social imperialism". Religion has been a "tool" used throughout the ages against mankind. Millions have been killed/controlled in the name of their respective gods/goddesses. This is just another sensationalist story to rekindle the efforts of why we the Americans are there. If the world really wanted to help that country then it wouldn't just primarily be America there. The day humankind can break away from such narrow minded values is the day we will start progressing further as a race. Regardless though the killings were unjustified and is a travesty against mankind.
On August 29 2012 00:17 MiQ wrote: Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
On August 29 2012 00:17 MiQ wrote: Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
When we say "Women and children first", is it because we think men are lesser beings? No. To me it's a principle, you dont physicly assault a woman, and beheading one is as low as you can get. Happy?
On August 29 2012 00:17 MiQ wrote: Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
On August 29 2012 00:40 SayGen wrote: I tihnk it's sad how we dare judge other countries and their beleifs. How dare we say they are wrong, or 'unprogressed' or in the stone ages.
They have a right to live there and do what they want. They can form their owns laws, they are a sovergein nation and we have no business to tell them anything.
So tried of forgeiners trying to oppress others in the name of 'progress'
'progress' is nothing more than social imperialism.
I for one am in favor of this "social imperialism". Religion has been a "tool" used throughout the ages against mankind. Millions have been killed/controlled in the name of their respective gods/goddesses. This is just another sensationalist story to rekindle the efforts of why we the Americans are there. If the world really wanted to help that country then it wouldn't just primarily be America there. The day humankind can break away from such narrow minded values is the day we will start progressing further as a race. Regardless though the killings were unjustified and is a travesty against mankind.
Take religion out of it then. They were beheaded cause they don't like dancing.
On August 29 2012 00:40 SayGen wrote: I tihnk it's sad how we dare judge other countries and their beleifs. How dare we say they are wrong, or 'unprogressed' or in the stone ages.
They have a right to live there and do what they want. They can form their owns laws, they are a sovergein nation and we have no business to tell them anything.
So tried of forgeiners trying to oppress others in the name of 'progress'
'progress' is nothing more than social imperialism.
I for one am in favor of this "social imperialism". Religion has been a "tool" used throughout the ages against mankind. Millions have been killed/controlled in the name of their respective gods/goddesses. This is just another sensationalist story to rekindle the efforts of why we the Americans are there. If the world really wanted to help that country then it wouldn't just primarily be America there. The day humankind can break away from such narrow minded values is the day we will start progressing further as a race. Regardless though the killings were unjustified and is a travesty against mankind.
Take religion out of it then. They were beheaded cause they don't like dancing.
Still in favor of social imperialism?
Tolerance is a two way street my friend.
If religion is taken out of the argument then I am still in favor of "social imperialism". Remember this thread wasn't made for us not to be arguing over such lame semantics. With all the skewed information that is coming to us, we can't discern what is true and what is not true. Regardless though if this story is in fact true, the reasoning behind it is just disturbing.
On August 29 2012 00:17 MiQ wrote: Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
On August 29 2012 00:17 MiQ wrote: Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
On August 29 2012 00:40 SayGen wrote: I tihnk it's sad how we dare judge other countries and their beleifs.
Judgement is never sad.
Everything should be judged, measured and evaluated, all the time, by as many people as possible.
Criticism of a system of beliefs that causes things like this to happen is perfectly rational and justified. Likewise, their own criticisms of a western system of beliefs are, in many ways, justified as well and should not be ignored.
Both need to be expressed, rather than either side "letting everyone do what they want".
Nobody should ever be allowed to entirely "do what they want" - no culture, no nation and no individual. Principles of humanism are universal, and anyone going against those should be pressured to fall into line.
"Officials said that Afghan intelligence agencies were trying to gather accurate information, and that the dance party as the reason for the beheading rumor was just one of many."
Methinks this part is very important.
On August 28 2012 11:43 BroOd wrote: Theory of the attack seems to be evolving:
Though initial reports of Monday's killings say the 17 victims were beheaded for taking part in a mixed-gender party in the southern Helmand province, officials now say the deaths may have been the result of a rivalry between two Taliban commanders over the two women in the troubled Musa Qala district.
On August 29 2012 01:47 KingAce wrote: Both Islam and christianity have the doctrine. "Do not kill." No exceptions.
No they don't...
There are plenty of situations in which it is perfectly legal to kill.
Thou shalt not kill is the first commandmend. That is on those two lovely tablets that Moses carries down the mountain.
Could you tell me god commands the jews to do shortly after that?
Something about genocide...
Also, the penalty for apostasy is pretty clear in Islam. Christianity never really orders you to go out and kill anyone, but since their god is the same, you can't really argue that god seems to be firmly on the pro-murder side.
You can't be jealous either, but if you read the books you will quickly learn that there isn't a fictional character more jealous than the Abrahamic god.
Regardless of the circumstances, such news is appalling. Nothing short of disgusting the way some cultures act. I'm sorry, tolerance and empathy is nice and all, there are limits. Things like this simply shouldn't happen.
On August 29 2012 01:47 KingAce wrote: Both Islam and christianity have the doctrine. "Do not kill." No exceptions.
No they don't...
There are plenty of situations in which it is perfectly legal to kill.
Thou shalt not kill is the first commandmend. That is on those two lovely tablets that Moses carries down the mountain.
Could you tell me god commands the jews to do shortly after that?
Something about genocide...
Also, the penalty for apostasy is pretty clear in Islam. Christianity never really orders you to go out and kill anyone, but since their god is the same, you can't really argue that god seems to be firmly on the pro-murder side.
You can't be jealous either, but if you read the books you will quickly learn that there isn't a fictional character more jealous than the Abrahamic god.
yea seriously. i took a history of religion class my second year of college just for fun and was blown away by spiteful and jealous he was. modern society has gotten pretty good at representing god as a loving and fair figure, but in the books he's totally down to kill the shit out of anyone that doesn't serve him just for the sake of it. he's almost sadistic.
On August 29 2012 00:40 SayGen wrote: I tihnk it's sad how we dare judge other countries and their beleifs.
Judgement is never sad.
Everything should be judged, measured and evaluated, all the time, by as many people as possible.
Criticism of a system of beliefs that causes things like this to happen is perfectly rational and justified. Likewise, their own criticisms of a western system of beliefs are, in many ways, justified as well and should not be ignored.
Both need to be expressed, rather than either side "letting everyone do what they want".
Nobody should ever be allowed to entirely "do what they want" - no culture, no nation and no individual. Principles of humanism are universal, and anyone going against those should be pressured to fall into line.
Humanism is a concept, a theory, a philosophy. There is no universal law.
Principles are nothing more than a set of ethic/moral beliefs. Your principals are not the prinicpals over all.
There is no set of right and wrong.
I do however agree that everything should be judged. I should of said (my mistake) that we as Americans have no right to enforce our judgements onto another sovergein nation. That was my mistake for not typing it out correctly, and for that I apologise.
On August 29 2012 00:17 MiQ wrote: Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
Stupid double standard bullshit.
I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right?
That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can.
I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT.
On August 29 2012 00:17 MiQ wrote: Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
Stupid double standard bullshit.
I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right?
That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can.
I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT.
Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong.
Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY".
On August 29 2012 00:17 MiQ wrote: Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
Stupid double standard bullshit.
I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right?
That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can.
I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT.
Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong.
Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY".
You couldn't be more wrong.
The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW.
How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you?
I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'.
On August 29 2012 00:17 MiQ wrote: Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
Stupid double standard bullshit.
I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right?
That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can.
I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT.
Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong.
Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY".
You couldn't be more wrong.
The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW.
How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you?
I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'.
I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom?
On August 29 2012 00:17 MiQ wrote: Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
Stupid double standard bullshit.
I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right?
That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can.
I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT.
Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong.
Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY".
You couldn't be more wrong.
The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW.
How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you?
I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'.
I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom?
If they wanted to dance they shouldn't of done it where they did, again if they didn't like the law- get it changed, or leave the country.
Freedom doens't work with stupid people. Either A) They knew the law and choose to break it. or B) They were ignorant of the law and they have my pity.
I hold people accountable for their choices. They choose to live there. They choose to live under those laws. They choose to risk death. They died. I see no problem here. Had they been Americans, in America- I would have a polar opposite position on this issue.
PS: Great political skills dodging the questions that were asked.
On August 29 2012 00:17 MiQ wrote: Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
Stupid double standard bullshit.
I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right?
That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can.
I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT.
Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong.
Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY".
You couldn't be more wrong.
The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW.
How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you?
I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'.
I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom?
If they wanted to dance they shouldn't of done it where they did, again if they didn't like the law- get it changed, or leave the country.
Freedom doens't work with stupid people. Either A) They knew the law and choose to break it. or B) They were ignorant of the law and they have my pity.
I hold people accountable for their choices. They choose to live there. They choose to live under those laws. They choose to risk death. They died. I see no problem here. Had they been Americans, in America- I would have a polar opposite position on this issue.
Most embyros don't yet possess the skills required to shift to the womb of a woman in another country. I feel their failure to choose the country of their birth shouldn't be held against them.
On August 29 2012 00:17 MiQ wrote: Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
Stupid double standard bullshit.
I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right?
That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can.
I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT.
Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong.
Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY".
You couldn't be more wrong.
The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW.
How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you?
I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'.
I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom?
If they wanted to dance they shouldn't of done it where they did, again if they didn't like the law- get it changed, or leave the country.
Freedom doens't work with stupid people. Either A) They knew the law and choose to break it. or B) They were ignorant of the law and they have my pity.
I hold people accountable for their choices. They choose to live there. They choose to live under those laws. They choose to risk death. They died. I see no problem here. Had they been Americans, in America- I would have a polar opposite position on this issue.
Most embyros don't yet possess the skills required to shift to the womb of a woman in another country. I feel their failure to choose the country of their birth shouldn't be held against them.
Your remarks only hold value if they are being forced to reside in their country agaisnt their will and lack the means to escape. Even if the above sentence is true- they still have the option to change the law/ overthrow the government.
Again (for I tihnk the 4th time) If you don't like it leave.
Ah yes, a place where dancing and music are worse crimes than murder and mutilation. You have to see their side of it, flailing limbs back and forth in rhythm is worse than literally flailing limbs of dead people. I don't know why though.
So why is dancing even considered a crime? I thought the Muslim religion was an off-shoot from the Christian religion which is an off-shoot from the Jewish religion, which I am not sure how that came about but whatever, and in the Christian religion, Jesus (who the Muslims view only as a prophet) is known as the "Lord of the Dance."
If anyone can enlighten me as to why it is hated in the Muslim culture I would be almost ecstatic from the new information. Ok... so not ecstatic, but happy to have learned something new.
Holy crap, just read the someone said, that it was the people's fault for dancing and risking death. HOLY CRAP! The penalty for DANCING shouldn't be DEATH. DANCING!=DEATH! Death is like at least 4 magnitudes higher, that is 1x10^4 times greater, than dancing. Don't kill me for dancing... What about my dog... It sometimes dances... Are you going to kill my dog Please don't kill my dog.
On August 29 2012 01:07 ddrddrddrddr wrote: [quote] Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
Stupid double standard bullshit.
I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right?
That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can.
I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT.
Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong.
Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY".
You couldn't be more wrong.
The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW.
How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you?
I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'.
I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom?
If they wanted to dance they shouldn't of done it where they did, again if they didn't like the law- get it changed, or leave the country.
Freedom doens't work with stupid people. Either A) They knew the law and choose to break it. or B) They were ignorant of the law and they have my pity.
I hold people accountable for their choices. They choose to live there. They choose to live under those laws. They choose to risk death. They died. I see no problem here. Had they been Americans, in America- I would have a polar opposite position on this issue.
Most embyros don't yet possess the skills required to shift to the womb of a woman in another country. I feel their failure to choose the country of their birth shouldn't be held against them.
Your remarks only hold value if they are being forced to reside in their country agaisnt their will and lack the means to escape. Even if the above sentence is true- they still have the option to change the law/ overthrow the government.
Again (for I tihnk the 4th time) If you don't like it leave.
EDIT: I would add that if a child (under the age of accountability) were killed for dancing I would feel sorry for the child. Though I would still blame the parents for lack of parenting skills. If you know dancing is bad and you let your child dance.... the person to blame is the parent, not the governments.
On August 29 2012 00:17 MiQ wrote: Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
Stupid double standard bullshit.
I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right?
That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can.
I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT.
Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong.
Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY".
You couldn't be more wrong.
The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW.
How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you?
I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'.
I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom?
If they wanted to dance they shouldn't of done it where they did, again if they didn't like the law- get it changed, or leave the country.
Freedom doens't work with stupid people. Either A) They knew the law and choose to break it. or B) They were ignorant of the law and they have my pity.
I hold people accountable for their choices. They choose to live there. They choose to live under those laws. They choose to risk death. They died. I see no problem here. Had they been Americans, in America- I would have a polar opposite position on this issue.
PS: Great political skills dodging the questions that were asked.
The thing is: people in another part of the world (not US citizens) hurt each other for reasons that are stupid. Is it our responsibility to make things right?
Put another way: the cost of killing someone in Afghanistan runs over a half million bucks per kill (ordnance, fuel, hourly pay of all involved personnel.) Is it our responsibility to be spending that amount of money to punish some ax maniacs 12 time zones from the United States? Remember that these ax maniacs are not the same ones that caused 9/11; Bin Laden is dead already.
On August 29 2012 00:17 MiQ wrote: Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
Stupid double standard bullshit.
I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right?
That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can.
I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT.
Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong.
Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY".
You couldn't be more wrong.
The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW.
How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you?
I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'.
I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom?
If they wanted to dance they shouldn't of done it where they did, again if they didn't like the law- get it changed, or leave the country.
Freedom doens't work with stupid people. Either A) They knew the law and choose to break it. or B) They were ignorant of the law and they have my pity.
I hold people accountable for their choices. They choose to live there. They choose to live under those laws. They choose to risk death. They died. I see no problem here. Had they been Americans, in America- I would have a polar opposite position on this issue.
PS: Great political skills dodging the questions that were asked.
So on one hand you keep talking about freedom and then on the other you say "freedom doesn't work with stupid people" and that they should have just obeyed the law which doesn't foster freedom. Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
And to answer your question about if i'd like it if their cultural values were pushed on me, no I wouldn't do you know why? I wouldn't because their cultural values are threats to freedom, they limit and inhibit the freedom of individuals to do as they wish.
Ok ok. I did kind of a joke post trying to learn info on the culture that dislikes dancing. But it turns out that people don't realize something basic. I've seen people say the word "law" here and not realize that there wasn't a law broken. It was a culture issue, a "de-facto" not a "de-lexo" that occurred. The dancers didn't break a law. They didn't break any law, not with the music not with the dancing. The only LAW broken was when they were killed. They are saying it was a MURDER not a punishment. Those that are saying the dancers broke the law and got what they deserve don't understand what the article is saying, or are just trying to troll people (they might be idiots, i'm not sure.( I'm not calling anyone an idiot. I am simply saying you might have spoken before reading.))
The murderers broke the law. The Dancers did not. Don't think this is the dancers fault. No one in the article says "the dancers broke the law" or any variation of that. It was a culture issue done by extremists, who chose murder as their way of sending a message, kind of extreme if you ask me. But that is probably why we call them extremists.
On August 29 2012 00:17 MiQ wrote: Wow are you fuckign kidding me?? People get beheaded for dancing and singing?! Women included?! Fucking barbaric pieces of shit. Unbelievable. They really are the bottom of the shit barrel of humanity.
Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
Stupid double standard bullshit.
I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right?
That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can.
I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT.
Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong.
Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY".
You couldn't be more wrong.
The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW.
How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you?
I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'.
I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom?
If they wanted to dance they shouldn't of done it where they did, again if they didn't like the law- get it changed, or leave the country.
Freedom doens't work with stupid people. Either A) They knew the law and choose to break it. or B) They were ignorant of the law and they have my pity.
I hold people accountable for their choices. They choose to live there. They choose to live under those laws. They choose to risk death. They died. I see no problem here. Had they been Americans, in America- I would have a polar opposite position on this issue.
Most embyros don't yet possess the skills required to shift to the womb of a woman in another country. I feel their failure to choose the country of their birth shouldn't be held against them.
Correction, ALL embryo's. But this is an idiotic argument. They become conscious adults with free will and judgment. Staying there even if they have the choice and ability to leave is a choice to be bound by the laws and practices of the land.
On August 29 2012 01:47 KingAce wrote: Both Islam and christianity have the doctrine. "Do not kill." No exceptions.
No they don't...
There are plenty of situations in which it is perfectly legal to kill.
Thou shalt not kill is the first commandmend. That is on those two lovely tablets that Moses carries down the mountain.
Could you tell me god commands the jews to do shortly after that?
Something about genocide...
Also, the penalty for apostasy is pretty clear in Islam. Christianity never really orders you to go out and kill anyone, but since their god is the same, you can't really argue that god seems to be firmly on the pro-murder side.
You can't be jealous either, but if you read the books you will quickly learn that there isn't a fictional character more jealous than the Abrahamic god.
Lol, 'thou shalt not kill' is not the first commandment. I get what you're trying to say, but if you have no idea what you're talking about don't pretend you do.
On August 29 2012 01:07 ddrddrddrddr wrote: [quote] Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
Stupid double standard bullshit.
I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right?
That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can.
I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT.
Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong.
Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY".
You couldn't be more wrong.
The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW.
How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you?
I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'.
I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom?
If they wanted to dance they shouldn't of done it where they did, again if they didn't like the law- get it changed, or leave the country.
Freedom doens't work with stupid people. Either A) They knew the law and choose to break it. or B) They were ignorant of the law and they have my pity.
I hold people accountable for their choices. They choose to live there. They choose to live under those laws. They choose to risk death. They died. I see no problem here. Had they been Americans, in America- I would have a polar opposite position on this issue.
Most embyros don't yet possess the skills required to shift to the womb of a woman in another country. I feel their failure to choose the country of their birth shouldn't be held against them.
Your remarks only hold value if they are being forced to reside in their country agaisnt their will and lack the means to escape. Even if the above sentence is true- they still have the option to change the law/ overthrow the government.
Again (for I tihnk the 4th time) If you don't like it leave.
Which country which values people brought up in the Afghan tribal education system and has an open door immigration policy with open land to give to people who only know farming do you advocate they go to? And how do they get there?
The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so.
It is not always true that a government rules through the popular support of its people. That its people do not rise up to overthrow this government or leave the area that this government has dominion over is not a sign in any way of legitimacy. A great example would be puppet governments. Clearly you can't disagree that puppet governments installed by foreign powers (such as the US) have no popular legitimacy. You can't disagree that some governments are so oppressive as to stop their people from enacting change or even leaving.
Another good example is the Taliban, which itself is a puppet government installed by Pakistan. It has never held any popular mandate, not before the international occupation, and certainly not now from its southeastern strongholds.
It is complete ignorance to believe that any and every person in Afghanistan or any nation with an oppressive government can simply rise up to change it. The idea that uprisings and rebellions will succeed or fail based on whether or not they hold popular support is a myth. Thirteen American colonies were able to secure independence from Britain despite the fact that less than half of their populations were in support of independence, one in five actually remaining loyal to Britain. Meanwhile, in more recent times, look at Hungary, Tibet, Czechoslovakia. The will of the majority had no say against the might of force. Look at Syria. Many commentators have been expecting President Bashar al-Assad's reign to end for months now, due to the minority nature of his government imposing its will on a hostile majority. However, his downfall is by no means inevitable, as his forces continue to make gains in taking back urban areas. Let's not forget that his father crushed a similar uprising as well, leaving twenty thousand dead.
Simply leaving the country is not really a strong option, either. First of all, Afghanistan is one of the poorest countries on the planet, with very little infrastructure or social capital. Second, much of it is rural and tribal in nature. The people have ties to the land; they cannot just up and leave because the government is hostile. In some cases, such as North Korea, the people cannot leave because the government is hostile.
The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe.
I didn't once say that I was the moral right in the universe. But to extrapolate from certain cases of moral ambiguity (of which there are many) the idea that there is no moral right and wrong is absurd to the highest degree.
Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being.
And yet you ignore individual human rights when you grant nations the rights to do as they please against their own populations. You contradict yourself with this statement because your absurd worship of the sovereignty of the state treats individual human beings as limbs of this one state, to be manipulated as the state desires.
How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you?
If their beliefs were correct, I would very much like it.*
I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'.
You have a very twisted, or at best, naive, view of freedom. Freedom is a quality such that one person's freedom will always place limitations on another person's freedom, so we can only exact approximations of it. Allowing national governments to do as they please, even if it means slaughtering their people, is clearly not the best approximation of freedom possible.
A final point / recap: this is the basis of your argument. 1. People are free to do as they wish. 2. Government is only and always just an extension of the will of the people. 3. Therefore, governments are free to do as they wish.
I've debunked your argument by disproving the second point, but even if it holds true, the third point is not valid, either. I don't want to go in depth in this topic, but it should be obvious that the rights of the minority must be respected against the will of the majority.
*So as not to walk into a trap, I'll clarify on this point. If the government of nation A is unjust, and the population of nation A cannot change it by itself, the government of nation B is obligated to step in to change it only if the benefits will outweigh the costs. It its clear now that neither the international occupation of Afghanistan nor the mainly American occupation of Iraq yielded benefits worth the immense cost.
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
nah
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
Stupid double standard bullshit.
I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right?
That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can.
I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT.
Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong.
Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY".
You couldn't be more wrong.
The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW.
How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you?
I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'.
I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom?
If they wanted to dance they shouldn't of done it where they did, again if they didn't like the law- get it changed, or leave the country.
Freedom doens't work with stupid people. Either A) They knew the law and choose to break it. or B) They were ignorant of the law and they have my pity.
I hold people accountable for their choices. They choose to live there. They choose to live under those laws. They choose to risk death. They died. I see no problem here. Had they been Americans, in America- I would have a polar opposite position on this issue.
Most embyros don't yet possess the skills required to shift to the womb of a woman in another country. I feel their failure to choose the country of their birth shouldn't be held against them.
Your remarks only hold value if they are being forced to reside in their country agaisnt their will and lack the means to escape. Even if the above sentence is true- they still have the option to change the law/ overthrow the government.
Again (for I tihnk the 4th time) If you don't like it leave.
Which country which values people brought up in the Afghan tribal education system and has an open door immigration policy with open land to give to people who only know farming do you advocate they go to? And how do they get there?
You're living in a dream world of privilege.
What Kwark said.. This poster's idea of individualism seems to be the notion of making the dumbest remarks around. Moral relativism born out of privilege and ignorance
So on one hand you keep talking about freedom and then on the other you say "freedom doesn't work with stupid people" and that they should have just obeyed the law which doesn't foster freedom.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive? IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they arn't. I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
And to answer your question about if I'd like it if their cultural values were pushed on me, no I wouldn't do you know why? I wouldn't because their cultural values are threats to freedom, they limit and inhibit the freedom of individuals to do as they wish.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive? IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they aren't. I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Freedom is like anything else in life. There are extremes to freedom. How much freedom? How little freedom. It is all just perspective. I draw the line that we are free to live in whatever oppressed lifestyle we want, so long as that oppression is a matter of choice. IE: You choose to live in a Muslim controlled country, might want to start obey their laws.
What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong). What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so. What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under. If people want to be oppressed let them. It's not my place to tell them they can't be oppressed. I like America, I like more freedoms. They don't- I'm fine with that.
They leave me alone, I leave them alone. Learn to COEXIST. Learn to stop being the AGGRESSOR, the INVADER, the PROBLEM.
On August 29 2012 01:07 ddrddrddrddr wrote: [quote] Women included? What do you mean by that? It's better to behead men than women?
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
Stupid double standard bullshit.
I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right?
That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can.
I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT.
Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong.
Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY".
You couldn't be more wrong.
The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW.
How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you?
I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'.
I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom?
If they wanted to dance they shouldn't of done it where they did, again if they didn't like the law- get it changed, or leave the country.
Freedom doens't work with stupid people. Either A) They knew the law and choose to break it. or B) They were ignorant of the law and they have my pity.
I hold people accountable for their choices. They choose to live there. They choose to live under those laws. They choose to risk death. They died. I see no problem here. Had they been Americans, in America- I would have a polar opposite position on this issue.
Most embyros don't yet possess the skills required to shift to the womb of a woman in another country. I feel their failure to choose the country of their birth shouldn't be held against them.
Correction, ALL embryo's. But this is an idiotic argument. They become conscious adults with free will and judgment. Staying there even if they have the choice and ability to leave is a choice to be bound by the laws and practices of the land.
On August 29 2012 01:47 KingAce wrote: Both Islam and christianity have the doctrine. "Do not kill." No exceptions.
No they don't...
There are plenty of situations in which it is perfectly legal to kill.
Thou shalt not kill is the first commandmend. That is on those two lovely tablets that Moses carries down the mountain.
Could you tell me god commands the jews to do shortly after that?
Something about genocide...
Also, the penalty for apostasy is pretty clear in Islam. Christianity never really orders you to go out and kill anyone, but since their god is the same, you can't really argue that god seems to be firmly on the pro-murder side.
You can't be jealous either, but if you read the books you will quickly learn that there isn't a fictional character more jealous than the Abrahamic god.
Lol, 'thou shalt not kill' is not the first commandment. I get what you're trying to say, but if you have no idea what you're talking about don't pretend you do.
Most people don't know anything about the scriptures. Hell, most Christains dont know the scriptures only what they get preached by someone on a stage/pulpit.
Murder,killing is justified in all 3 of the major religions (Judaism, Muslims, Christains)
On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote: So on one hand you keep talking about freedom and then on the other you say "freedom doesn't work with stupid people" and that they should have just obeyed the law which doesn't foster freedom.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive? IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they arn't. I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
And to answer your question about if I'd like it if their cultural values were pushed on me, no I wouldn't do you know why? I wouldn't because their cultural values are threats to freedom, they limit and inhibit the freedom of individuals to do as they wish.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive? IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they aren't. I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Freedom is like anything else in life. There are extremes to freedom. How much freedom? How little freedom. It is all just perspective. I draw the line that we are free to live in whatever oppressed lifestyle we want, so long as that oppression is a matter of choice. IE: You choose to live in a Muslim controlled country, might want to start obey their laws.
What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong). What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so. What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under. If people want to be oppressed let them. It's not my place to tell them they can't be oppressed. I like America, I like more freedoms. They don't- I'm fine with that.
They leave me alone, I leave them alone. Learn to COEXIST. Learn to stop being the AGGRESSOR, the INVADER, the PROBLEM.
You clearly don't understand the concept of freedom of ones ownself but not freedom to harm others. If you run red lights in your car that's you endangering the lives of others, this is not a freedom you have. Dancing has no victim.
It was a sexist comment. Though I'm sure he'll claim chivalry, we both know it was discrimination. No sex is worth saving over the other. Woman and children 1st means little in a world of equality.
So you label me as sexist yet go out of your way to say we shouldn't judge other countries and cultures that treat their own people like shit.
Yeah okay, keep on spreading your wise words of wisdom.
Stupid double standard bullshit.
I don't label you anything. I call it like I see it. You made a sexist comment that put one sex over the other. That is not equal. No man is better than any woman and vice versa according to 'equality'. you do know what the "=" symbol means right?
That country can treat it's people however it wants, and we can treat people in our country however we want. If that country doesn't like it, they can have a revolution/coup/etc and change the law- just like we here in America can.
I'm against social imperialism. Just cause you don't like it, doens't make us right and them wrong. I think it's horrible that event happened. Am I going to do anything about it- nope. Why? CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY AND I WILL NOT FORCE THEM TO DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT.
Such a ridiculous belief. You act as if there is some grand dogma protecting the rights of nations and national governments to do as they please regardless of individual rights. You say that no one should have any say outside of his nation. Why should anyone have any say outside of his own province? Outside of his hometown? Outside of his own household? Why should anyone have any say on anything other than his personal actions? This is the problem with cultural relativism. There may sometimes be gray areas between right and wrong, but in this case, it is clear that the Taliban are firmly in the wrong.
Does that justify use of force? Perhaps not. But the reasons against use of force definitely wouldn't rely on as silly or ignorant an argument as "CAUSE IT ISN'T MY COUNTRY".
You couldn't be more wrong.
The people choose their government. The government is the people. PEOPLE run and operate the government. If it was bad they would over throw it, or leave. There are no walls on their border they can walk out. They choose to live under those laws, and they have the right to do so. The fact that your trying to push your ideals of right and wrong on others countries is sickening. I mean that truly. It is beyond despicable. How dare you call yourself the moral right in the universe. Humans are FREE and independent. We are not limbs of one being. Your imperialistic values are the problem with the world today. People like you are why we will never have a lasting peace and prosperity. If I don't like how things are done in my country, USA- I can always leave. Your trying to push 1 WORLD law- which just so happens to be YOUR LAW.
How would you like it if they were the ones who came to your country and talked about how vile you were, how wrong you were. How would you like it if they pushed their beliefs on you?
I will continue to push for FREEDOM. You can continue to be an imperialist if you want, you have your right to an opinion and unlike you I respect your right to an opinion and ur right to leave under whatever laws you think are 'right'.
I'm sure the 17 murdered in this case are plenty happy with their freedom. Do not on one hand speak about freedom and how you think these people should be free to do as they wish and then so quickly dismiss the freedoms of the murdered who simply danced. Where is their freedom?
If they wanted to dance they shouldn't of done it where they did, again if they didn't like the law- get it changed, or leave the country.
Freedom doens't work with stupid people. Either A) They knew the law and choose to break it. or B) They were ignorant of the law and they have my pity.
I hold people accountable for their choices. They choose to live there. They choose to live under those laws. They choose to risk death. They died. I see no problem here. Had they been Americans, in America- I would have a polar opposite position on this issue.
Most embyros don't yet possess the skills required to shift to the womb of a woman in another country. I feel their failure to choose the country of their birth shouldn't be held against them.
Your remarks only hold value if they are being forced to reside in their country agaisnt their will and lack the means to escape. Even if the above sentence is true- they still have the option to change the law/ overthrow the government.
Again (for I tihnk the 4th time) If you don't like it leave.
Which country which values people brought up in the Afghan tribal education system and has an open door immigration policy with open land to give to people who only know farming do you advocate they go to? And how do they get there?
You're living in a dream world of privilege.
You can come to American without a dollar in your pocket or one single set of skills. If you can come into the highest GDP nation in the world with nothing, you can do anything with a little effort.
You continue to underestimate a motivated indivisual.
If you really want something, you will find a way.
On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote: So on one hand you keep talking about freedom and then on the other you say "freedom doesn't work with stupid people" and that they should have just obeyed the law which doesn't foster freedom.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive? IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they arn't. I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
And to answer your question about if I'd like it if their cultural values were pushed on me, no I wouldn't do you know why? I wouldn't because their cultural values are threats to freedom, they limit and inhibit the freedom of individuals to do as they wish.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive? IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they aren't. I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Freedom is like anything else in life. There are extremes to freedom. How much freedom? How little freedom. It is all just perspective. I draw the line that we are free to live in whatever oppressed lifestyle we want, so long as that oppression is a matter of choice. IE: You choose to live in a Muslim controlled country, might want to start obey their laws.
What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong). What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so. What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under. If people want to be oppressed let them. It's not my place to tell them they can't be oppressed. I like America, I like more freedoms. They don't- I'm fine with that.
They leave me alone, I leave them alone. Learn to COEXIST. Learn to stop being the AGGRESSOR, the INVADER, the PROBLEM.
You clearly don't understand the concept of freedom of ones ownself but not freedom to harm others. If you run red lights in your car that's you endangering the lives of others, this is not a freedom you have. Dancing has no victim.
Smoking weed doens't hurt anyone either and that is illegal. Prositution doesn't hurt anyone, and that is illegal. I could go on...
On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote: So on one hand you keep talking about freedom and then on the other you say "freedom doesn't work with stupid people" and that they should have just obeyed the law which doesn't foster freedom.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive? IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they arn't. I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
And to answer your question about if I'd like it if their cultural values were pushed on me, no I wouldn't do you know why? I wouldn't because their cultural values are threats to freedom, they limit and inhibit the freedom of individuals to do as they wish.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive? IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they aren't. I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Freedom is like anything else in life. There are extremes to freedom. How much freedom? How little freedom. It is all just perspective. I draw the line that we are free to live in whatever oppressed lifestyle we want, so long as that oppression is a matter of choice. IE: You choose to live in a Muslim controlled country, might want to start obey their laws.
What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong). What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so. What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under. If people want to be oppressed let them. It's not my place to tell them they can't be oppressed. I like America, I like more freedoms. They don't- I'm fine with that.
They leave me alone, I leave them alone. Learn to COEXIST. Learn to stop being the AGGRESSOR, the INVADER, the PROBLEM.
You clearly don't understand the concept of freedom of ones ownself but not freedom to harm others. If you run red lights in your car that's you endangering the lives of others, this is not a freedom you have. Dancing has no victim.
Smoking weed doens't hurt anyone either and that is illegal. Prositution doesn't hurt anyone, and that is illegal. I could go on...
Yep and I would support legislation making those legal
On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote: So on one hand you keep talking about freedom and then on the other you say "freedom doesn't work with stupid people" and that they should have just obeyed the law which doesn't foster freedom.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive? IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they arn't. I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
And to answer your question about if I'd like it if their cultural values were pushed on me, no I wouldn't do you know why? I wouldn't because their cultural values are threats to freedom, they limit and inhibit the freedom of individuals to do as they wish.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive? IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they aren't. I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Freedom is like anything else in life. There are extremes to freedom. How much freedom? How little freedom. It is all just perspective. I draw the line that we are free to live in whatever oppressed lifestyle we want, so long as that oppression is a matter of choice. IE: You choose to live in a Muslim controlled country, might want to start obey their laws.
What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong). What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so. What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under. If people want to be oppressed let them. It's not my place to tell them they can't be oppressed. I like America, I like more freedoms. They don't- I'm fine with that.
They leave me alone, I leave them alone. Learn to COEXIST. Learn to stop being the AGGRESSOR, the INVADER, the PROBLEM.
You clearly don't understand the concept of freedom of ones ownself but not freedom to harm others. If you run red lights in your car that's you endangering the lives of others, this is not a freedom you have. Dancing has no victim.
Smoking weed doens't hurt anyone either and that is illegal. Prositution doesn't hurt anyone, and that is illegal. I could go on...
Yep and I would support legislation making those legal
I didn't ask whether or not you would support those actions. I'm making the point that whether it directly hurts/helps someone is irrelevent. You can create and enforce laws of any nature if the people submit. If dancing was a crime, then it was punishable, they could get away with it cause the people choose to make that acceptable behavior and they have the right/freedom to do so.
On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote: So on one hand you keep talking about freedom and then on the other you say "freedom doesn't work with stupid people" and that they should have just obeyed the law which doesn't foster freedom.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive? IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they arn't. I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
And to answer your question about if I'd like it if their cultural values were pushed on me, no I wouldn't do you know why? I wouldn't because their cultural values are threats to freedom, they limit and inhibit the freedom of individuals to do as they wish.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive? IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they aren't. I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Freedom is like anything else in life. There are extremes to freedom. How much freedom? How little freedom. It is all just perspective. I draw the line that we are free to live in whatever oppressed lifestyle we want, so long as that oppression is a matter of choice. IE: You choose to live in a Muslim controlled country, might want to start obey their laws.
What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong). What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so. What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under. If people want to be oppressed let them. It's not my place to tell them they can't be oppressed. I like America, I like more freedoms. They don't- I'm fine with that.
They leave me alone, I leave them alone. Learn to COEXIST. Learn to stop being the AGGRESSOR, the INVADER, the PROBLEM.
You clearly don't understand the concept of freedom of ones ownself but not freedom to harm others. If you run red lights in your car that's you endangering the lives of others, this is not a freedom you have. Dancing has no victim.
Smoking weed doens't hurt anyone either and that is illegal. Prositution doesn't hurt anyone, and that is illegal. I could go on...
Yep and I would support legislation making those legal
I didn't ask whether or not you would support those actions. I'm making the point that whether it directly hurts/helps someone is irrelevent. You can create and enforce laws of any nature if the people submit. If dancing was a crime, then it was punishable, they could get away with it cause the people choose to make that acceptable behavior and they have the right/freedom to do so.
Yes and those laws are stupid? I don't see the angle of your argument, when people get sent to prison for prostitution or smoking weed I think it's retarded and ass backwards too.
So just because something can be punished it should be punished? What ridiculousness is this?
What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong).
But there are clear cut cases of right and wrong. Would you disagree with Galileo Galilei's defence of heliocentrism? What about the abolitionists' stand against slavery?
What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so.
But nobody does this at all. When sovereign nations go around to other sovereign nations and try to tell them what to do, they use a variety of diplomatic tools, which may or may not be ethical (such as military invasion). But wait, since you claim that sovereign nations have the right to do as they wish, then you cannot have a problem with this.
What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under.
How is one WORLD law being the ultimate authority any different from national law being the ultimate authority of a nation? You might say that the difference is that one can leave to another nation, but one cannot leave to another planet. I would argue that for a great many people, emigration is about as much of a possibility as a trip to the moon.
On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote: So on one hand you keep talking about freedom and then on the other you say "freedom doesn't work with stupid people" and that they should have just obeyed the law which doesn't foster freedom.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive? IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they arn't. I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
And to answer your question about if I'd like it if their cultural values were pushed on me, no I wouldn't do you know why? I wouldn't because their cultural values are threats to freedom, they limit and inhibit the freedom of individuals to do as they wish.
Did it occur to you that Freedom is sometimes allowing people to be more restrictive? IE: Am I being punished cause I have to stop my car at a red light? Are my rights being violated. No they aren't. I am here in America and I follow American law whether I like each particular law or not.
Freedom is like anything else in life. There are extremes to freedom. How much freedom? How little freedom. It is all just perspective. I draw the line that we are free to live in whatever oppressed lifestyle we want, so long as that oppression is a matter of choice. IE: You choose to live in a Muslim controlled country, might want to start obey their laws.
What I do not support is people saying they are right (After all we all think we are right and everyone is wrong). What I do not support is going around to other sovereign nations and telling them what to do cause YOU said so. What I do not support is one WORLD law. We are Human, we are capable of creating law and should be able to choose how and what law we live under. If people want to be oppressed let them. It's not my place to tell them they can't be oppressed. I like America, I like more freedoms. They don't- I'm fine with that.
They leave me alone, I leave them alone. Learn to COEXIST. Learn to stop being the AGGRESSOR, the INVADER, the PROBLEM.
You clearly don't understand the concept of freedom of ones ownself but not freedom to harm others. If you run red lights in your car that's you endangering the lives of others, this is not a freedom you have. Dancing has no victim.
Smoking weed doens't hurt anyone either and that is illegal. Prositution doesn't hurt anyone, and that is illegal. I could go on...
You may want to re-think your claim on prostitution.
It's a shame SayGen was temporarily banned. I was looking forward to seeing how he could possibly defend himself against overwhelming reason. But it was probably the right thing to do, since I'm kind of wondering whether or not he actually believed what he was saying or if he was trolling.
On August 29 2012 04:36 Warlock40 wrote: It's a shame SayGen was temporarily banned. I was looking forward to seeing how he could possibly defend himself against overwhelming reason. But it was probably the right thing to do, since I'm kind of wondering whether or not he actually believed what he was saying or if he was trolling.
On August 29 2012 04:36 Warlock40 wrote: It's a shame SayGen was temporarily banned. I was looking forward to seeing how he could possibly defend himself against overwhelming reason. But it was probably the right thing to do, since I'm kind of wondering whether or not he actually believed what he was saying or if he was trolling.
I rarely get pissed over different opinions but this guy lives on another planet. I'm all for freedom of speech and discussion but that guy has no idea what he's talking about.
Saying stuff like "If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?" is simply ignorant and childish. For him moving country is just the same as moving appartment.
I think the real issue in play here over this incident is not whether the Taliban had the right to behead these civilians (they didn't), but what it means for ISAF progress in the region. It's been ten years, yet things like this are still going on. I was once a fervent supporter of the 2001 invasion, but it's becoming more and more clear that armed intervention has not had the astounding success that any of its proponents thought it would.
On August 28 2012 09:14 Verator wrote: First of all, its not really laws, its religious text.
And dancing is a sin, their text says sins should be punished with death, so they kill them.
Its the same as if people actually followed the old testament's commands in the bible.
Have you got a source or a quote from the Quran that says punish sins with death? I would very much like to see that.
Nah just to kill infidels and converts ^^
lovely religion isnt it I wonder when we get behadings in the UK and the rest of Europe with our already formidable Islamic No go zones
The point I was trying to make by asking the question on the first page was that as far as I know as a fairly well versed Muslim living in Canada, is that there is no order to kill people for their sins unless it is during war (which is as it should be and is all over the world, not just in Muslim wars) or as a punishment for Murder after due trial and conviction beyond doubt (Capital Punishment; still exists in the US). Killing innocent people for their "sins" without proof and due trial and the minimum amount of witnesses required against them (4) is an addition to the religion by extremists and terrorists which is not condoned my most Muslims.
On August 28 2012 09:14 Verator wrote: First of all, its not really laws, its religious text.
And dancing is a sin, their text says sins should be punished with death, so they kill them.
Its the same as if people actually followed the old testament's commands in the bible.
Have you got a source or a quote from the Quran that says punish sins with death? I would very much like to see that.
Nah just to kill infidels and converts ^^
lovely religion isnt it I wonder when we get behadings in the UK and the rest of Europe with our already formidable Islamic No go zones
oh look a paranoia freak. just to let you know there is talk of NASA reaching out to the muslim world, they might even be in space. english.aljazeera.net/programmes/talktojazeera/2010/07/201071122234471970.html
On August 28 2012 09:14 Verator wrote: First of all, its not really laws, its religious text.
And dancing is a sin, their text says sins should be punished with death, so they kill them.
Its the same as if people actually followed the old testament's commands in the bible.
Have you got a source or a quote from the Quran that says punish sins with death? I would very much like to see that.
I'm pretty sure one can't really find a strong enough justification given that actual adultery (much less simpler frivolities) were not really sure-shot capital crimes under the early caliphs, who took things seriously.
On August 28 2012 09:14 Verator wrote: First of all, its not really laws, its religious text.
And dancing is a sin, their text says sins should be punished with death, so they kill them.
Its the same as if people actually followed the old testament's commands in the bible.
Have you got a source or a quote from the Quran that says punish sins with death? I would very much like to see that.
I'm pretty sure one can't really find a strong enough justification given that actual adultery (much less simpler frivolities) were not really sure-shot capital crimes under the early caliphs, who took things seriously.
On August 29 2012 04:17 SayGen wrote: Also it is not realistic to just say "Well move country" or "Then change government".
Why not? If they had the ability to dance, they had the ability to walk. Why couldn't they leave?
Do you realise how retarded that sound? I can't believe you actually mean this shit your spewing.
Your about to get reported... 15 posts to your name. You've PM'd me with insults. Your not adding to the conversation, your only attacking me.
TL may not be for you.
WTB a mod.
User was temp banned for this post.
Thank you mods for doing what was right. At first his arguments were actually valid points and were constructive. Now they just turned out to just derail the thread into something it isn't.
Back on topic. Regardless of how or why the murders occurred it is just not right by any means. Taking lives should be so "easy" for people and especially for people with faith. Like I mentioned in the previous posting in this thread. If the world really wanted to help they could as the earth is rich with resources. There are plenty of people on the planet that could help I am sure. Just most countries are worried about their pocket books or international political image. All in all its pretty sad on how far we really came.
On August 29 2012 04:45 Warlock40 wrote: I think the real issue in play here over this incident is not whether the Taliban had the right to behead these civilians (they didn't), but what it means for ISAF progress in the region. It's been ten years, yet things like this are still going on. I was once a fervent supporter of the 2001 invasion, but it's becoming more and more clear that armed intervention has not had the astounding success that any of its proponents thought it would.
It's remarkable people are so stupid and out of touch with reality that they could have actually bought into the idea that armed intervention would work.
The people that you occupy will resent and subvert you at every turn.
On August 28 2012 09:14 Verator wrote: First of all, its not really laws, its religious text.
And dancing is a sin, their text says sins should be punished with death, so they kill them.
Its the same as if people actually followed the old testament's commands in the bible.
Have you got a source or a quote from the Quran that says punish sins with death? I would very much like to see that.
Nah just to kill infidels and converts ^^
lovely religion isnt it I wonder when we get behadings in the UK and the rest of Europe with our already formidable Islamic No go zones
The point I was trying to make by asking the question on the first page was that as far as I know as a fairly well versed Muslim living in Canada, is that there is no order to kill people for their sins unless it is during war (which is as it should be and is all over the world, not just in Muslim wars) or as a punishment for Murder after due trial and conviction beyond doubt (Capital Punishment; still exists in the US). Killing innocent people for their "sins" without proof and due trial and the minimum amount of witnesses required against them (4) is an addition to the religion by extremists and terrorists which is not condoned my most Muslims.
Not condoned by most Muslims does not make it untrue to scripture.
Wahhabism has a very thorough grounding in scripture, as does Qutbism. Both can permit the murder of an individual in certain cases.
Readings are based on a combination of the Quran and the hadiths. The problem with this is that the hadiths vary between very reliable, and less reliable than a Fox News show, but much like Fox News, people will ignore the bias if it suits their needs.
Whilst it is easy to prove when Fox news makes something up, it is less easy to prove that his sister's, barber's, brother's, little sister's, best friend, was saying the truth or not.
So, does the majority of muslims want to chop my head off? No, but be honest, the people that do want to kill me aren't making it up as they go, they simply read the book differently, and it isn't invalid at any point.
Muslim's have a tendency to instantly dismiss any differing reading as un-islamic. It's made somewhat ironic that that tendency to dismiss different readings is exactly what extremist denominations (like Qutbism) use to permit the murder of other muslims, because they dismiss them as fakes, thus reaching the conclusion that they are permitted to kill them.
I don't mind it when people say that Islamic terrorism is fringe, but you can't be honest and say that it isn't Islamic, or a perversion of Islam. Is is scripturally sound.
On August 29 2012 04:45 Warlock40 wrote: I think the real issue in play here over this incident is not whether the Taliban had the right to behead these civilians (they didn't), but what it means for ISAF progress in the region. It's been ten years, yet things like this are still going on. I was once a fervent supporter of the 2001 invasion, but it's becoming more and more clear that armed intervention has not had the astounding success that any of its proponents thought it would.
It's remarkable people are so stupid and out of touch with reality that they could have actually bought into the idea that armed intervention would work.
The people that you occupy will resent and subvert you at every turn.
I might agree that I and anyone who thought the idea of armed intervention in Afghanistan would easily succeed in bringing about a stable democracy were indeed out of touch with reality, but it should not be taken as a general axiom that armed intervention never works, nor that armed interventions will always fail because of resistance from the people.
It just so happens that this tends to be the case most of the time.
the solution is access to a free and solid level of education free from religious superstition. note that after the enlightenment europe made lots of progress towards social justice. the more education there is, the less religion there will be (in terms of fanaticism anyway, getting rid of religion altogether will take far longer)
use books to fight ignorance, not guns. that will just rile up the religious people more. by making them not religious, solves a lot of problems.
On August 29 2012 04:45 Warlock40 wrote: I think the real issue in play here over this incident is not whether the Taliban had the right to behead these civilians (they didn't), but what it means for ISAF progress in the region. It's been ten years, yet things like this are still going on. I was once a fervent supporter of the 2001 invasion, but it's becoming more and more clear that armed intervention has not had the astounding success that any of its proponents thought it would.
It's remarkable people are so stupid and out of touch with reality that they could have actually bought into the idea that armed intervention would work.
The people that you occupy will resent and subvert you at every turn.
I might agree that I and anyone who thought the idea of armed intervention in Afghanistan would easily succeed in bringing about a stable democracy were indeed out of touch with reality, but it should not be taken as a general axiom that armed intervention never works, nor that armed interventions will always fail because of resistance from the people.
It just so happens that this tends to be the case most of the time.
Armed intervention works for the purpose it's optimized for: which is the destruction of population.
If that is not your goal, to go to total war, then you are very likely using the wrong tool for the job. You don't use a hammer in the place of a screwdriver.
The very simple fact of life is: you can't make someone do something unless they want to do it themselves. If the only reason they are doing it is because they have a gun pointed to their head, then you can be sure that when your back is turned, everything will be undone.
The trick is to find a way to make the benefits so natural and obvious that the right direction is undeniable.
We never did that with Afghanistan, we never intended to, and never had a gameplan in that manner.
As an agnostic I have no idea why people furiously trip all over themselves trying desperately to be Islam apologists.
All religions are stupid and have a ton of issues, but they are not all equally stupid. At this point in history it's painfully obvious that Islam is pretty dang high up on that list.
And before you post 5000 examples people from other religions doing retarded or violent things, don't bother, we know, like I said all religions have bad eggs, but it's ridiculous to view them all as 100% the same in every way.
On August 28 2012 09:14 Verator wrote: First of all, its not really laws, its religious text.
And dancing is a sin, their text says sins should be punished with death, so they kill them.
Its the same as if people actually followed the old testament's commands in the bible.
Have you got a source or a quote from the Quran that says punish sins with death? I would very much like to see that.
Nah just to kill infidels and converts ^^
lovely religion isnt it I wonder when we get behadings in the UK and the rest of Europe with our already formidable Islamic No go zones
The point I was trying to make by asking the question on the first page was that as far as I know as a fairly well versed Muslim living in Canada, is that there is no order to kill people for their sins unless it is during war (which is as it should be and is all over the world, not just in Muslim wars) or as a punishment for Murder after due trial and conviction beyond doubt (Capital Punishment; still exists in the US). Killing innocent people for their "sins" without proof and due trial and the minimum amount of witnesses required against them (4) is an addition to the religion by extremists and terrorists which is not condoned my most Muslims.
Not condoned by most Muslims does not make it untrue to scripture.
Wahhabism has a very thorough grounding in scripture, as does Qutbism. Both can permit the murder of an individual in certain cases.
Readings are based on a combination of the Quran and the hadiths. The problem with this is that the hadiths vary between very reliable, and less reliable than a Fox News show, but much like Fox News, people will ignore the bias if it suits their needs.
Whilst it is easy to prove when Fox news makes something up, it is less easy to prove that his sister's, barber's, brother's, little sister's, best friend, was saying the truth or not.
So, does the majority of muslims want to chop my head off? No, but be honest, the people that do want to kill me aren't making it up as they go, they simply read the book differently, and it isn't invalid at any point.
Muslim's have a tendency to instantly dismiss any differing reading as un-islamic. It's made somewhat ironic that that tendency to dismiss different readings is exactly what extremist denominations (like Qutbism) use to permit the murder of other muslims, because they dismiss them as fakes, thus reaching the conclusion that they are permitted to kill them.
I don't mind it when people say that Islamic terrorism is fringe, but you can't be honest and say that it isn't Islamic, or a perversion of Islam. Is is scripturally sound.
That's the thing. Islam isn't just one entity. The different schools all believe in very different things, even the schools of sunni islam that often get clumped together are very different and originate from surrounding culture, not entirely from scriptural interpretation
On August 29 2012 04:02 Nacl(Draq) wrote: Ok ok. I did kind of a joke post trying to learn info on the culture that dislikes dancing. But it turns out that people don't realize something basic. I've seen people say the word "law" here and not realize that there wasn't a law broken. It was a culture issue, a "de-facto" not a "de-lexo" that occurred. The dancers didn't break a law. They didn't break any law, not with the music not with the dancing. The only LAW broken was when they were killed. They are saying it was a MURDER not a punishment. Those that are saying the dancers broke the law and got what they deserve don't understand what the article is saying, or are just trying to troll people (they might be idiots, i'm not sure.( I'm not calling anyone an idiot. I am simply saying you might have spoken before reading.))
The murderers broke the law. The Dancers did not. Don't think this is the dancers fault. No one in the article says "the dancers broke the law" or any variation of that. It was a culture issue done by extremists, who chose murder as their way of sending a message, kind of extreme if you ask me. But that is probably why we call them extremists.
Why are people ignoring this post? They (the dancers) didn't commit a crime or break any law, they were murdered.
EPT
