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On August 12 2012 04:12 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:04 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 03:51 SupLilSon wrote:That isn't a problem with multiculturalism as much as a problem with the people of Toronto. For as much crap as the US gets for our Bible Belt population, multiculturalism is becoming a reality here. Living in the Mid-North East has probably skewed my perception a great deal, but in my community I see Indian, Korea, Chinese, White, Hispanic and Black kids playing together, being friends. It sounds like some sappy politically correct TV commercial, but it's happening. I'm half chinese, one of my neighboring families are black, the others are also half chinese (mainland china, I'm not). There is a half indian, half black family living 3 doors down and all 3 of their children are products of the Naval Academy and proud members of the Armed Forces. Even amongst my group of friends we have about every ethnicity represented. We all still hold on to our cultures and remain aware of the small differences. IMO, a lot of present day racism derives from strict adherence to religion, especially Christianity, which makes clear distinctions between "believers" and "non-believers". That and highly undeducated people who don't realize that genetically we are more than 99% alike. On August 12 2012 03:58 SupLilSon wrote:How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed. ethnicity != culture Each of these ethnic groups carries a different culture..
...that is not bounded by their ethnicity. By confusing the 2 facts you are either disqualifying yourself from the discussion or deliberately trying to steer it into a direction where anyone that think multiculturalism isn't all that is a blatant racist.
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On August 12 2012 03:33 D10 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 02:58 McBengt wrote:On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Roleplay time. You are a homosexual woman who likes to travel alone and drive cars. Where would you rather live, Norway or Saudi Arabia? Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on ? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil
In Sweden it's fairly small at least. They are in fact in parliament, but only with 4-5% of votes or so.
There are a tonne of them on the internet though for some reason. There's a big Swedish forum where a huge percent are pretty hard core racist. I think it has to do with not going out very often.
The overwhelming majority of people you'd actually meet don't have a problem with foreigners.
There is often some prejudice of some kind though. I think that's very hard to avoid though.
That's my take on it at least.
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On August 12 2012 04:16 DisneylandSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:12 SupLilSon wrote:On August 12 2012 04:04 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 03:51 SupLilSon wrote:That isn't a problem with multiculturalism as much as a problem with the people of Toronto. For as much crap as the US gets for our Bible Belt population, multiculturalism is becoming a reality here. Living in the Mid-North East has probably skewed my perception a great deal, but in my community I see Indian, Korea, Chinese, White, Hispanic and Black kids playing together, being friends. It sounds like some sappy politically correct TV commercial, but it's happening. I'm half chinese, one of my neighboring families are black, the others are also half chinese (mainland china, I'm not). There is a half indian, half black family living 3 doors down and all 3 of their children are products of the Naval Academy and proud members of the Armed Forces. Even amongst my group of friends we have about every ethnicity represented. We all still hold on to our cultures and remain aware of the small differences. IMO, a lot of present day racism derives from strict adherence to religion, especially Christianity, which makes clear distinctions between "believers" and "non-believers". That and highly undeducated people who don't realize that genetically we are more than 99% alike. On August 12 2012 03:58 SupLilSon wrote:How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed. ethnicity != culture Each of these ethnic groups carries a different culture.. ...that is not bounded by their ethnicity. By confusing the 2 facts you are either disqualifying yourself from the discussion or deliberately trying to steer it into a direction where anyone that think multiculturalism isn't all that is a blatant racist.
Not bounded but correlated at the very least. In my experience ethnic groups tend to carry culture with them at least in the U.S.
Further it's probably a mistake to continually compare U.S. to Europe where the U.S. is strange in that it is both multicultural and a melting pot concurrently. Example being veils are simply not controversial here (at least on a national level), especially in schools yet in the college I went to alot of Islamic women voluntarily or out of spite rid themselves of the veil and retained other Islamic habits.
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On August 12 2012 04:16 DisneylandSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:12 SupLilSon wrote:On August 12 2012 04:04 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 03:51 SupLilSon wrote:That isn't a problem with multiculturalism as much as a problem with the people of Toronto. For as much crap as the US gets for our Bible Belt population, multiculturalism is becoming a reality here. Living in the Mid-North East has probably skewed my perception a great deal, but in my community I see Indian, Korea, Chinese, White, Hispanic and Black kids playing together, being friends. It sounds like some sappy politically correct TV commercial, but it's happening. I'm half chinese, one of my neighboring families are black, the others are also half chinese (mainland china, I'm not). There is a half indian, half black family living 3 doors down and all 3 of their children are products of the Naval Academy and proud members of the Armed Forces. Even amongst my group of friends we have about every ethnicity represented. We all still hold on to our cultures and remain aware of the small differences. IMO, a lot of present day racism derives from strict adherence to religion, especially Christianity, which makes clear distinctions between "believers" and "non-believers". That and highly undeducated people who don't realize that genetically we are more than 99% alike. On August 12 2012 03:58 SupLilSon wrote:How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed. ethnicity != culture Each of these ethnic groups carries a different culture.. ...that is not bounded by their ethnicity. By confusing the 2 facts you are either disqualifying yourself from the discussion or deliberately trying to steer it into a direction where anyone that think multiculturalism isn't all that is a blatant racist.
Historically ethnicity and culture go hand in hand. In today's age that has become a bit less defined, but by separating the two, you are being able to say, hey I'm not racist, but I hate everything about this person's culture. Since genetically we are all the same, culture is the only thing that really distinguishes us.
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Seriously... shut this thread down. Conspiratory cries about plans of "multiculturalism" among governments are bad excuses for racism and radical conservatism.
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On August 12 2012 04:20 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 03:33 D10 wrote:On August 12 2012 02:58 McBengt wrote:On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Roleplay time. You are a homosexual woman who likes to travel alone and drive cars. Where would you rather live, Norway or Saudi Arabia? Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on ? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil In Sweden it's fairly small at least. They are in fact in parliament, but only with 4-5% of votes or so. There are a tonne of them on the internet though for some reason. There's a big Swedish forum where a huge percent are pretty hard core racist. I think it has to do with not going out very often. The overwhelming majority of people you'd actually meet don't have a problem with foreigners. There is often some prejudice of some kind though. I think that's very hard to avoid though. That's my take on it at least.
Yeah this pretty much mirrors my experience. Flashback can be entertaining though, it's like entering a different reality.
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On August 12 2012 04:21 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:16 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 04:12 SupLilSon wrote:On August 12 2012 04:04 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 03:51 SupLilSon wrote:That isn't a problem with multiculturalism as much as a problem with the people of Toronto. For as much crap as the US gets for our Bible Belt population, multiculturalism is becoming a reality here. Living in the Mid-North East has probably skewed my perception a great deal, but in my community I see Indian, Korea, Chinese, White, Hispanic and Black kids playing together, being friends. It sounds like some sappy politically correct TV commercial, but it's happening. I'm half chinese, one of my neighboring families are black, the others are also half chinese (mainland china, I'm not). There is a half indian, half black family living 3 doors down and all 3 of their children are products of the Naval Academy and proud members of the Armed Forces. Even amongst my group of friends we have about every ethnicity represented. We all still hold on to our cultures and remain aware of the small differences. IMO, a lot of present day racism derives from strict adherence to religion, especially Christianity, which makes clear distinctions between "believers" and "non-believers". That and highly undeducated people who don't realize that genetically we are more than 99% alike. On August 12 2012 03:58 SupLilSon wrote:How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed. ethnicity != culture Each of these ethnic groups carries a different culture.. ...that is not bounded by their ethnicity. By confusing the 2 facts you are either disqualifying yourself from the discussion or deliberately trying to steer it into a direction where anyone that think multiculturalism isn't all that is a blatant racist. Historically ethnicity and culture go hand in hand. In today's age that has become a bit less defined, but by separating the two, you are being able to say, hey I'm not racist, but I hate everything about this person's culture. Since genetically we are all the same, culture is the only thing that really distinguishes us. And there is nothing wrong with that at all since culture is something you chose. Race is not. I am perfectly allowed to dislike an oppressive and hateful culture.
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On August 12 2012 04:20 forgottendreams wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:16 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 04:12 SupLilSon wrote:On August 12 2012 04:04 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 03:51 SupLilSon wrote:That isn't a problem with multiculturalism as much as a problem with the people of Toronto. For as much crap as the US gets for our Bible Belt population, multiculturalism is becoming a reality here. Living in the Mid-North East has probably skewed my perception a great deal, but in my community I see Indian, Korea, Chinese, White, Hispanic and Black kids playing together, being friends. It sounds like some sappy politically correct TV commercial, but it's happening. I'm half chinese, one of my neighboring families are black, the others are also half chinese (mainland china, I'm not). There is a half indian, half black family living 3 doors down and all 3 of their children are products of the Naval Academy and proud members of the Armed Forces. Even amongst my group of friends we have about every ethnicity represented. We all still hold on to our cultures and remain aware of the small differences. IMO, a lot of present day racism derives from strict adherence to religion, especially Christianity, which makes clear distinctions between "believers" and "non-believers". That and highly undeducated people who don't realize that genetically we are more than 99% alike. On August 12 2012 03:58 SupLilSon wrote:How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed. ethnicity != culture Each of these ethnic groups carries a different culture.. ...that is not bounded by their ethnicity. By confusing the 2 facts you are either disqualifying yourself from the discussion or deliberately trying to steer it into a direction where anyone that think multiculturalism isn't all that is a blatant racist. Not bounded but correlated at the very least. In my experience ethnic groups tend to carry culture with them at least in the U.S. Further it's probably a mistake to continually compare U.S. to Europe where the U.S. is strange in that it is both multicultural and a melting pot concurrently. Example being veils are simply not controversial here (at least on a national level), especially in schools yet in the college I went to alot of Islamic women voluntarily or out of spite rid themselves of the veil and retained other Islamic habits.
In a normal school environment the parents pick their children's clothes. As you progress to College/University you find that they are free to choose for themselves. Many probably rebel and test alternatives out when they can without constant supervision. At least to me your experience seems logical.
It could also be a case of the ones getting more education having more American culture, the ones without not getting the education.
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On August 12 2012 04:13 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:09 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 03:07 Thorakh wrote:On August 12 2012 03:06 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 02:19 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:15 r.Evo wrote:On August 12 2012 02:07 Thorakh wrote:Then again, they did not have that stupid idea that skin color equals superiority or inferiority. And neither does anyone in this thread. Race =/= culture. Racism is bad. 'Culturalism' is not. What. So you'd be fine if there would be a movement promoting the superiority of the German/American/Russian culture with the obvious incentive to free all people with lesser culture so they can finally live the same dream as everyone who is already part of the superior culture? Race, culture, religion, actually ANY idea with the built in promise that it's superior and that wrongbelievers (or those with the wrong blood) have to be purged or, sorry, enlightened leads to pretty similar results. People from different cultures/races/religions are... guess what: Different. No policy and no amount of talk you can do will convince anyone from anything else. People don't want to be from the same tribe so to speak. Encouraging that being different is completely okay would be a start instead of telling everyone that it's not okay and that they should be more similar to each other. What you've just argued is that purging is bad and therefore any issue which purging could be used as a solution to shouldn't be recognised as an issue. Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Truely homophobic and sexist cultures, in other words cultures where the raped women is guilty and where homosexuals are persecuted and killed, are indeed inferior. But I'm not sure if that's what you meant by that. If by sexist/homophobic cultures you mean cultures in which men and women are not undifferentiated entities who can occupy the same jobs and do the same things, then your idea of a Western culture is different to the traditional European culture, and foreign as well. That's why the traditional European culture is inferior as well. So your idea of a counter-culture is an individualistic society composed of undifferentiated entities who share no real culture, except tolerating few stuff. No wonder why the conversion to Islam is skyrocketting in Europe. No, my idea of society is a mix of open cultures who respect each other and have no 'values' which dictate the oppressing or harming of others.
If you keep on trying to protect the "West" under the banner of "gay marriage and adoption", or the right for women to dress up like sluts and not suffer from any sexist remarks, then you're doomed to fail, and to drag us all down with you.
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On August 12 2012 02:22 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 02:15 r.Evo wrote:On August 12 2012 02:07 Thorakh wrote:Then again, they did not have that stupid idea that skin color equals superiority or inferiority. And neither does anyone in this thread. Race =/= culture. Racism is bad. 'Culturalism' is not. What. So you'd be fine if there would be a movement promoting the superiority of the German/American/Russian culture with the obvious incentive to free all people with lesser culture so they can finally live the same dream as everyone who is already part of the superior culture? Race, culture, religion, actually ANY idea with the built in promise that it's superior and that wrongbelievers (or those with the wrong blood) have to be purged or, sorry, enlightened leads to pretty similar results. People from different cultures/races/religions are... guess what: Different. No policy and no amount of talk you can do will convince anyone from anything else. People don't want to be from the same tribe so to speak. Encouraging that being different is completely okay would be a start instead of telling everyone that it's not okay and that they should be more similar to each other. How can you even believe crap like this? If my culture tells me that diseases are caused by babies and that the only way to cure a disease is to kill a baby, you are telling me it's okay because being different is okay? Some cultures are objectively inferior. Period. You aren't born with a culture like you are born with skin color and race. Religion and culture are both things that can be inferior. Race and skin color are not. The two are not comparable. I'm telling others they should stop harming and oppressing others. Where is the wrong in that?Show nested quote +
One example is your own conflicting values in this thread. I assume you hold the basic value/belief that human beings should be treated with dignity, yet you advocate forcible displacement of proponents of Sharia law. Islamic extremists also believe in peace and love and all that good shit, but at the same time believe infidels should be beheaded. You guys share a common ground in your eschewing of basic human rights for what you perceive to be the greater good.
I don't care because what I believe is objectively better. I am tolerant of everything except the harming and/or oppressing of others. I will not stand for the destruction of a peaceful society by people who want to oppress others. And besides, I have no wish to harm anyone. I just want them to not fuck up my country. Show nested quote +To clarify, I believe that if you treat Islamic or Christian or whatever other religious belief systems as a form of culture (which you can), then you can make a good case for their inferiority to secular humanist belief systems/culture, but I don't think you can attribute socioeconomic woes to people's idiotic beliefs, as if just kicking out the baddies will solve your problems. I hope I'm understanding you correctly as I'm already having troubles conveying my thoughts on this matter into English. Where did I say anything about socioeconomic woes? I'm talking about culture here and how multiculturalism creates culture clashes. I'm talking about my fear that one particular inferior culture will become more prevalent (and is becoming more prevalent, althought not to the point of Sharia law introduction being imminent).
Deteriorating cities and increased crime are socioeconomic issues.
On August 12 2012 02:45 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 21:06 sc4k wrote:On August 11 2012 18:38 Psychobabas wrote:
Multiculturalism has failed in Europe. Just visit London, probably the most multicultural capital in Europe.
You expect to see a harmonious cooexistence of cultures but what you get are completely segregated neighborhoods according to race and ethnicity. The Pakistanis are doing their own thing in east London, the Somalis their own, the Indians their own, the Africans their own, the Arabs their own, the Chinese their own etc etc all with little will to integrate to British culture, nevermind tolerating other cultures.
Some can barely speak a word of English. I'm pretty sure this is okay. As long as no one breaks the law, there's nothing wrong with having cultural geographical groupings. There are generally locations where Aussies go, Polish go, Spanish go as well as Africans and Orientals. There are grouping areas for the English in almost every country. There are plenty who come from these areas who branch out, the next generation will intermarry with other cultures. It takes a while but divisions get broken down. And as a reward we get a shitload of talent across the gene pool of humanity. Worked for the US as far as I can see (although the incredible influx of Mexicans has sort of upset the apple cart). On August 11 2012 19:58 Sepi wrote:
I'm kinda disgusted about the people who just come to the country and leech ALL out of the social security system. There have been SO many cases in my country where people lie to the government, mainly about their childs and heatl condition etc. to get max support from the governemnt. We as tax payers must pay this all. And they still complain how they have just 60 square meter house FOR FREE. Its ridiculous.
Luckily there is a counterweight to this immigration, because there are a lot good people. Who acts just like us, does work and tries to proceed in their career. I higlhy respect these people as they can ADAPT to other enviroment and work their hart out to have what they deserve.
Even all the sexual crimes are mostly committed by immigrates. The studies that i have read, also indicate that its HIGHLY possible that they will continue to commit crimes. In my law system there is no way to kick any people out. They just get 1-2 years of probation and something like 1000 euros of indemnity or something like that.
Im no racist at all, but it just makes me sick how they can be so abusive, and yet so arrogant. This isn't really a complaint about multiculturalism, rather a complaint about the state of the Finnish legal system and the weakness of its determination process for working out validity of benefit claims. There is no need for more "shitload of talent" in this country.
Yeah, we already know that Britain's Got Talent.
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On August 12 2012 04:27 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:13 Thorakh wrote:On August 12 2012 04:09 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 03:07 Thorakh wrote:On August 12 2012 03:06 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 02:19 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:15 r.Evo wrote:On August 12 2012 02:07 Thorakh wrote:Then again, they did not have that stupid idea that skin color equals superiority or inferiority. And neither does anyone in this thread. Race =/= culture. Racism is bad. 'Culturalism' is not. What. So you'd be fine if there would be a movement promoting the superiority of the German/American/Russian culture with the obvious incentive to free all people with lesser culture so they can finally live the same dream as everyone who is already part of the superior culture? Race, culture, religion, actually ANY idea with the built in promise that it's superior and that wrongbelievers (or those with the wrong blood) have to be purged or, sorry, enlightened leads to pretty similar results. People from different cultures/races/religions are... guess what: Different. No policy and no amount of talk you can do will convince anyone from anything else. People don't want to be from the same tribe so to speak. Encouraging that being different is completely okay would be a start instead of telling everyone that it's not okay and that they should be more similar to each other. What you've just argued is that purging is bad and therefore any issue which purging could be used as a solution to shouldn't be recognised as an issue. Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Truely homophobic and sexist cultures, in other words cultures where the raped women is guilty and where homosexuals are persecuted and killed, are indeed inferior. But I'm not sure if that's what you meant by that. If by sexist/homophobic cultures you mean cultures in which men and women are not undifferentiated entities who can occupy the same jobs and do the same things, then your idea of a Western culture is different to the traditional European culture, and foreign as well. That's why the traditional European culture is inferior as well. So your idea of a counter-culture is an individualistic society composed of undifferentiated entities who share no real culture, except tolerating few stuff. No wonder why the conversion to Islam is skyrocketting in Europe. No, my idea of society is a mix of open cultures who respect each other and have no 'values' which dictate the oppressing or harming of others. If you keep on trying to protect the "West" under the banner of "gay marriage and adoption", or the right for women to dress up like sluts and not suffer from any sexist remarks, then you're doomed to fail, and to drag us all down with you.
I don't see anything wrong with those things being part of a larger culture of tolerance and acceptance of peoples values. As long as people are willing to fight for everybody having the chance to follow those values instead of accepting that others have other values and violently oppose them.
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On August 12 2012 04:26 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:21 SupLilSon wrote:On August 12 2012 04:16 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 04:12 SupLilSon wrote:On August 12 2012 04:04 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 03:51 SupLilSon wrote:That isn't a problem with multiculturalism as much as a problem with the people of Toronto. For as much crap as the US gets for our Bible Belt population, multiculturalism is becoming a reality here. Living in the Mid-North East has probably skewed my perception a great deal, but in my community I see Indian, Korea, Chinese, White, Hispanic and Black kids playing together, being friends. It sounds like some sappy politically correct TV commercial, but it's happening. I'm half chinese, one of my neighboring families are black, the others are also half chinese (mainland china, I'm not). There is a half indian, half black family living 3 doors down and all 3 of their children are products of the Naval Academy and proud members of the Armed Forces. Even amongst my group of friends we have about every ethnicity represented. We all still hold on to our cultures and remain aware of the small differences. IMO, a lot of present day racism derives from strict adherence to religion, especially Christianity, which makes clear distinctions between "believers" and "non-believers". That and highly undeducated people who don't realize that genetically we are more than 99% alike. On August 12 2012 03:58 SupLilSon wrote:How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed. ethnicity != culture Each of these ethnic groups carries a different culture.. ...that is not bounded by their ethnicity. By confusing the 2 facts you are either disqualifying yourself from the discussion or deliberately trying to steer it into a direction where anyone that think multiculturalism isn't all that is a blatant racist. Historically ethnicity and culture go hand in hand. In today's age that has become a bit less defined, but by separating the two, you are being able to say, hey I'm not racist, but I hate everything about this person's culture. Since genetically we are all the same, culture is the only thing that really distinguishes us. And there is nothing wrong with that at all since culture is something you chose. Race is not. I am perfectly allowed to dislike an oppressive and hateful culture.
But you don't get to choose culture, not 100%. The whole reason you see a culture as oppressive and hateful is because of your own upbringing. Culture is something you are exposed to since the day you are born, many times without you even noticing. Yea, once you get older you may shed aspects of that culture, but it has to be a conscious effort. And like I said, most of these oppressive/hateful cultures are just products of religion. There is much more to culture than that.
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On August 12 2012 04:27 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:20 forgottendreams wrote:On August 12 2012 04:16 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 04:12 SupLilSon wrote:On August 12 2012 04:04 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 03:51 SupLilSon wrote:That isn't a problem with multiculturalism as much as a problem with the people of Toronto. For as much crap as the US gets for our Bible Belt population, multiculturalism is becoming a reality here. Living in the Mid-North East has probably skewed my perception a great deal, but in my community I see Indian, Korea, Chinese, White, Hispanic and Black kids playing together, being friends. It sounds like some sappy politically correct TV commercial, but it's happening. I'm half chinese, one of my neighboring families are black, the others are also half chinese (mainland china, I'm not). There is a half indian, half black family living 3 doors down and all 3 of their children are products of the Naval Academy and proud members of the Armed Forces. Even amongst my group of friends we have about every ethnicity represented. We all still hold on to our cultures and remain aware of the small differences. IMO, a lot of present day racism derives from strict adherence to religion, especially Christianity, which makes clear distinctions between "believers" and "non-believers". That and highly undeducated people who don't realize that genetically we are more than 99% alike. On August 12 2012 03:58 SupLilSon wrote:How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed. ethnicity != culture Each of these ethnic groups carries a different culture.. ...that is not bounded by their ethnicity. By confusing the 2 facts you are either disqualifying yourself from the discussion or deliberately trying to steer it into a direction where anyone that think multiculturalism isn't all that is a blatant racist. Not bounded but correlated at the very least. In my experience ethnic groups tend to carry culture with them at least in the U.S. Further it's probably a mistake to continually compare U.S. to Europe where the U.S. is strange in that it is both multicultural and a melting pot concurrently. Example being veils are simply not controversial here (at least on a national level), especially in schools yet in the college I went to alot of Islamic women voluntarily or out of spite rid themselves of the veil and retained other Islamic habits. In a normal school environment the parents pick their children's clothes. As you progress to College/University you find that they are free to choose for themselves. Many probably rebel and test alternatives out when they can without constant supervision. At least to me your experience seems logical. It could also be a case of the ones getting more education having more American culture, the ones without not getting the education.
That's a good point. I'm too lazy to check but I would be a betting man increasing education and income decrease cultural attachment and religiosity up to a certain level.
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On August 12 2012 04:27 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:13 Thorakh wrote:On August 12 2012 04:09 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 03:07 Thorakh wrote:On August 12 2012 03:06 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 02:19 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:15 r.Evo wrote:On August 12 2012 02:07 Thorakh wrote:Then again, they did not have that stupid idea that skin color equals superiority or inferiority. And neither does anyone in this thread. Race =/= culture. Racism is bad. 'Culturalism' is not. What. So you'd be fine if there would be a movement promoting the superiority of the German/American/Russian culture with the obvious incentive to free all people with lesser culture so they can finally live the same dream as everyone who is already part of the superior culture? Race, culture, religion, actually ANY idea with the built in promise that it's superior and that wrongbelievers (or those with the wrong blood) have to be purged or, sorry, enlightened leads to pretty similar results. People from different cultures/races/religions are... guess what: Different. No policy and no amount of talk you can do will convince anyone from anything else. People don't want to be from the same tribe so to speak. Encouraging that being different is completely okay would be a start instead of telling everyone that it's not okay and that they should be more similar to each other. What you've just argued is that purging is bad and therefore any issue which purging could be used as a solution to shouldn't be recognised as an issue. Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Truely homophobic and sexist cultures, in other words cultures where the raped women is guilty and where homosexuals are persecuted and killed, are indeed inferior. But I'm not sure if that's what you meant by that. If by sexist/homophobic cultures you mean cultures in which men and women are not undifferentiated entities who can occupy the same jobs and do the same things, then your idea of a Western culture is different to the traditional European culture, and foreign as well. That's why the traditional European culture is inferior as well. So your idea of a counter-culture is an individualistic society composed of undifferentiated entities who share no real culture, except tolerating few stuff. No wonder why the conversion to Islam is skyrocketting in Europe. No, my idea of society is a mix of open cultures who respect each other and have no 'values' which dictate the oppressing or harming of others. If you keep on trying to protect the "West" under the banner of "gay marriage and adoption", or the right for women to dress up like sluts and not suffer from any sexist remarks, then you're doomed to fail, and to drag us all down with you. Uhh what...?
But you don't get to choose culture, not 100%.
That is absolutely true and that's why eduction and critical thinking are so important. Any adult is responsible for his values though, when shown his old set of values is bigoted and oppressive.
The whole reason you see a culture as oppressive and hateful is because of your own upbringing. No. The definitions of oppressive and hateful don't change whether I'm brought up with culture A or culture B.
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On August 12 2012 04:31 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:26 Thorakh wrote:On August 12 2012 04:21 SupLilSon wrote:On August 12 2012 04:16 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 04:12 SupLilSon wrote:On August 12 2012 04:04 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 03:51 SupLilSon wrote:That isn't a problem with multiculturalism as much as a problem with the people of Toronto. For as much crap as the US gets for our Bible Belt population, multiculturalism is becoming a reality here. Living in the Mid-North East has probably skewed my perception a great deal, but in my community I see Indian, Korea, Chinese, White, Hispanic and Black kids playing together, being friends. It sounds like some sappy politically correct TV commercial, but it's happening. I'm half chinese, one of my neighboring families are black, the others are also half chinese (mainland china, I'm not). There is a half indian, half black family living 3 doors down and all 3 of their children are products of the Naval Academy and proud members of the Armed Forces. Even amongst my group of friends we have about every ethnicity represented. We all still hold on to our cultures and remain aware of the small differences. IMO, a lot of present day racism derives from strict adherence to religion, especially Christianity, which makes clear distinctions between "believers" and "non-believers". That and highly undeducated people who don't realize that genetically we are more than 99% alike. On August 12 2012 03:58 SupLilSon wrote:How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed. ethnicity != culture Each of these ethnic groups carries a different culture.. ...that is not bounded by their ethnicity. By confusing the 2 facts you are either disqualifying yourself from the discussion or deliberately trying to steer it into a direction where anyone that think multiculturalism isn't all that is a blatant racist. Historically ethnicity and culture go hand in hand. In today's age that has become a bit less defined, but by separating the two, you are being able to say, hey I'm not racist, but I hate everything about this person's culture. Since genetically we are all the same, culture is the only thing that really distinguishes us. And there is nothing wrong with that at all since culture is something you chose. Race is not. I am perfectly allowed to dislike an oppressive and hateful culture. But you don't get to choose culture, not 100%. The whole reason you see a culture as oppressive and hateful is because of your own upbringing. Culture is something you are exposed to since the day you are born, many times without you even noticing. Yea, once you get older you may shed aspects of that culture, but it has to be a conscious effort. And like I said, most of these oppressive/hateful cultures are just products of religion. There is much more to culture than that.
Let's pretend that all you just said is true. What exactly is your point?
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On August 12 2012 04:27 SiroKO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:13 Thorakh wrote:On August 12 2012 04:09 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 03:07 Thorakh wrote:On August 12 2012 03:06 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 02:19 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:15 r.Evo wrote:On August 12 2012 02:07 Thorakh wrote:Then again, they did not have that stupid idea that skin color equals superiority or inferiority. And neither does anyone in this thread. Race =/= culture. Racism is bad. 'Culturalism' is not. What. So you'd be fine if there would be a movement promoting the superiority of the German/American/Russian culture with the obvious incentive to free all people with lesser culture so they can finally live the same dream as everyone who is already part of the superior culture? Race, culture, religion, actually ANY idea with the built in promise that it's superior and that wrongbelievers (or those with the wrong blood) have to be purged or, sorry, enlightened leads to pretty similar results. People from different cultures/races/religions are... guess what: Different. No policy and no amount of talk you can do will convince anyone from anything else. People don't want to be from the same tribe so to speak. Encouraging that being different is completely okay would be a start instead of telling everyone that it's not okay and that they should be more similar to each other. What you've just argued is that purging is bad and therefore any issue which purging could be used as a solution to shouldn't be recognised as an issue. Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Truely homophobic and sexist cultures, in other words cultures where the raped women is guilty and where homosexuals are persecuted and killed, are indeed inferior. But I'm not sure if that's what you meant by that. If by sexist/homophobic cultures you mean cultures in which men and women are not undifferentiated entities who can occupy the same jobs and do the same things, then your idea of a Western culture is different to the traditional European culture, and foreign as well. That's why the traditional European culture is inferior as well. So your idea of a counter-culture is an individualistic society composed of undifferentiated entities who share no real culture, except tolerating few stuff. No wonder why the conversion to Islam is skyrocketting in Europe. No, my idea of society is a mix of open cultures who respect each other and have no 'values' which dictate the oppressing or harming of others. If you keep on trying to protect the "West" under the banner of "gay marriage and adoption", or the right for women to dress up like sluts and not suffer from any sexist remarks, then you're doomed to fail, and to drag us all down with you.
so you're criticizing western cultures for acceptance of gays? i don't really get your point...
also this thread is the most interesting thread i've read over the past couple of weeks. i'm actually enjoying reading it. as a product of the canadian school system we're learned to love multiculturalism, but because of our geographic location i guess we haven't been exposed to as many nutjobs are you guys in europe. that islamic march video posted earlier in freakin london really made me question...
where i live it is multi-ethnic but culturally we're not that far apart. i mean where i live it's primarily asians (indian,korean,chinese,japanese,etc) white people. and like the cultural divide isn't actually that big. they're also like 2nd generation
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On August 12 2012 04:31 forgottendreams wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:27 Yurie wrote:On August 12 2012 04:20 forgottendreams wrote:On August 12 2012 04:16 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 04:12 SupLilSon wrote:On August 12 2012 04:04 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 03:51 SupLilSon wrote:That isn't a problem with multiculturalism as much as a problem with the people of Toronto. For as much crap as the US gets for our Bible Belt population, multiculturalism is becoming a reality here. Living in the Mid-North East has probably skewed my perception a great deal, but in my community I see Indian, Korea, Chinese, White, Hispanic and Black kids playing together, being friends. It sounds like some sappy politically correct TV commercial, but it's happening. I'm half chinese, one of my neighboring families are black, the others are also half chinese (mainland china, I'm not). There is a half indian, half black family living 3 doors down and all 3 of their children are products of the Naval Academy and proud members of the Armed Forces. Even amongst my group of friends we have about every ethnicity represented. We all still hold on to our cultures and remain aware of the small differences. IMO, a lot of present day racism derives from strict adherence to religion, especially Christianity, which makes clear distinctions between "believers" and "non-believers". That and highly undeducated people who don't realize that genetically we are more than 99% alike. On August 12 2012 03:58 SupLilSon wrote:How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed. ethnicity != culture Each of these ethnic groups carries a different culture.. ...that is not bounded by their ethnicity. By confusing the 2 facts you are either disqualifying yourself from the discussion or deliberately trying to steer it into a direction where anyone that think multiculturalism isn't all that is a blatant racist. Not bounded but correlated at the very least. In my experience ethnic groups tend to carry culture with them at least in the U.S. Further it's probably a mistake to continually compare U.S. to Europe where the U.S. is strange in that it is both multicultural and a melting pot concurrently. Example being veils are simply not controversial here (at least on a national level), especially in schools yet in the college I went to alot of Islamic women voluntarily or out of spite rid themselves of the veil and retained other Islamic habits. In a normal school environment the parents pick their children's clothes. As you progress to College/University you find that they are free to choose for themselves. Many probably rebel and test alternatives out when they can without constant supervision. At least to me your experience seems logical. It could also be a case of the ones getting more education having more American culture, the ones without not getting the education. That's a good point. I'm too lazy to check but I would be a betting man increasing education and income decrease cultural attachment and religiosity up to a certain level.
Religious fervor and oppression/discrimination tend to coincide, secular regions tend to be more progressive in social issues particularly. Nothing spectacularly revealing about that.
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On August 12 2012 04:31 forgottendreams wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:27 Yurie wrote:On August 12 2012 04:20 forgottendreams wrote:On August 12 2012 04:16 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 04:12 SupLilSon wrote:On August 12 2012 04:04 DisneylandSC wrote:On August 12 2012 03:51 SupLilSon wrote:That isn't a problem with multiculturalism as much as a problem with the people of Toronto. For as much crap as the US gets for our Bible Belt population, multiculturalism is becoming a reality here. Living in the Mid-North East has probably skewed my perception a great deal, but in my community I see Indian, Korea, Chinese, White, Hispanic and Black kids playing together, being friends. It sounds like some sappy politically correct TV commercial, but it's happening. I'm half chinese, one of my neighboring families are black, the others are also half chinese (mainland china, I'm not). There is a half indian, half black family living 3 doors down and all 3 of their children are products of the Naval Academy and proud members of the Armed Forces. Even amongst my group of friends we have about every ethnicity represented. We all still hold on to our cultures and remain aware of the small differences. IMO, a lot of present day racism derives from strict adherence to religion, especially Christianity, which makes clear distinctions between "believers" and "non-believers". That and highly undeducated people who don't realize that genetically we are more than 99% alike. On August 12 2012 03:58 SupLilSon wrote:How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed. ethnicity != culture Each of these ethnic groups carries a different culture.. ...that is not bounded by their ethnicity. By confusing the 2 facts you are either disqualifying yourself from the discussion or deliberately trying to steer it into a direction where anyone that think multiculturalism isn't all that is a blatant racist. Not bounded but correlated at the very least. In my experience ethnic groups tend to carry culture with them at least in the U.S. Further it's probably a mistake to continually compare U.S. to Europe where the U.S. is strange in that it is both multicultural and a melting pot concurrently. Example being veils are simply not controversial here (at least on a national level), especially in schools yet in the college I went to alot of Islamic women voluntarily or out of spite rid themselves of the veil and retained other Islamic habits. In a normal school environment the parents pick their children's clothes. As you progress to College/University you find that they are free to choose for themselves. Many probably rebel and test alternatives out when they can without constant supervision. At least to me your experience seems logical. It could also be a case of the ones getting more education having more American culture, the ones without not getting the education. That's a good point. I'm too lazy to check but I would be a betting man increasing education and income decrease cultural attachment and religiosity up to a certain level.
I wouldn't bet against that. Moreso than the actually education, I think the college environment is pretty condusive to change and people get exposed to a shitton of different cultures when first entering college.
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On August 12 2012 04:29 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 04:27 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 04:13 Thorakh wrote:On August 12 2012 04:09 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 03:07 Thorakh wrote:On August 12 2012 03:06 SiroKO wrote:On August 12 2012 02:19 KwarK wrote:On August 12 2012 02:15 r.Evo wrote:On August 12 2012 02:07 Thorakh wrote:Then again, they did not have that stupid idea that skin color equals superiority or inferiority. And neither does anyone in this thread. Race =/= culture. Racism is bad. 'Culturalism' is not. What. So you'd be fine if there would be a movement promoting the superiority of the German/American/Russian culture with the obvious incentive to free all people with lesser culture so they can finally live the same dream as everyone who is already part of the superior culture? Race, culture, religion, actually ANY idea with the built in promise that it's superior and that wrongbelievers (or those with the wrong blood) have to be purged or, sorry, enlightened leads to pretty similar results. People from different cultures/races/religions are... guess what: Different. No policy and no amount of talk you can do will convince anyone from anything else. People don't want to be from the same tribe so to speak. Encouraging that being different is completely okay would be a start instead of telling everyone that it's not okay and that they should be more similar to each other. What you've just argued is that purging is bad and therefore any issue which purging could be used as a solution to shouldn't be recognised as an issue. Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Truely homophobic and sexist cultures, in other words cultures where the raped women is guilty and where homosexuals are persecuted and killed, are indeed inferior. But I'm not sure if that's what you meant by that. If by sexist/homophobic cultures you mean cultures in which men and women are not undifferentiated entities who can occupy the same jobs and do the same things, then your idea of a Western culture is different to the traditional European culture, and foreign as well. That's why the traditional European culture is inferior as well. So your idea of a counter-culture is an individualistic society composed of undifferentiated entities who share no real culture, except tolerating few stuff. No wonder why the conversion to Islam is skyrocketting in Europe. No, my idea of society is a mix of open cultures who respect each other and have no 'values' which dictate the oppressing or harming of others. If you keep on trying to protect the "West" under the banner of "gay marriage and adoption", or the right for women to dress up like sluts and not suffer from any sexist remarks, then you're doomed to fail, and to drag us all down with you. I don't see anything wrong with those things being part of a larger culture of tolerance and acceptance of peoples values. As long as people are willing to fight for everybody having the chance to follow those values instead of accepting that others have other values and violently oppose them.
My point is that foreign people wouldn't abundon their culture without something to recover lost ground.
This can't be this vast nothingness masquerading itself as "tolerance" and which in fact corresponds to an individualistic apathy.
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On August 12 2012 04:11 McBengt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 03:58 SupLilSon wrote:On August 12 2012 03:51 McBengt wrote:On August 12 2012 03:33 D10 wrote:On August 12 2012 02:58 McBengt wrote:On August 12 2012 02:54 Cele wrote:Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid. Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty". Roleplay time. You are a homosexual woman who likes to travel alone and drive cars. Where would you rather live, Norway or Saudi Arabia? Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on ? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil Not Sweden, I say to my great disappointment. Our unswerving determination to adapt to even to most absurd values and most repulsive traditions of foreign countries on the thinly veiled pretext of tolerance and inclusiveness is as ardent as ever. Social friction and segregation are becoming real problems though, we'll see what happens. How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed. Did you somehow extrapolate racist views from what I wrote? My best friend since third grade is from Iran. My coach and several training partners of mine are from Brazil. I worked for for three years with a turkish guy, we still hang out. It has nothing to do with the ethnicity of an individual person, it has to do with my country's lack of testicular fortitude in standing up for the core principles of our society. Some things just aren't desirable in a society that aims for equality.
You did say that it was your great disappointment that we don't have a 'big anti immigrant thing going on'.
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EPT
