On August 12 2012 03:51 SupLilSon wrote:That isn't a problem with multiculturalism as much as a problem with the people of Toronto. For as much crap as the US gets for our Bible Belt population, multiculturalism is becoming a reality here. Living in the Mid-North East has probably skewed my perception a great deal, but in my community I see Indian, Korea, Chinese, White, Hispanic and Black kids playing together, being friends. It sounds like some sappy politically correct TV commercial, but it's happening. I'm half chinese, one of my neighboring families are black, the others are also half chinese (mainland china, I'm not). There is a half indian, half black family living 3 doors down and all 3 of their children are products of the Naval Academy and proud members of the Armed Forces. Even amongst my group of friends we have about every ethnicity represented. We all still hold on to our cultures and remain aware of the small differences. IMO, a lot of present day racism derives from strict adherence to religion, especially Christianity, which makes clear distinctions between "believers" and "non-believers". That and highly undeducated people who don't realize that genetically we are more than 99% alike.
On August 12 2012 03:58 SupLilSon wrote:How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed.
ethnicity != culture
Each of these ethnic groups carries a different culture..
...that is not bounded by their ethnicity. By confusing the 2 facts you are either disqualifying yourself from the discussion or deliberately trying to steer it into a direction where anyone that think multiculturalism isn't all that is a blatant racist.
Historically ethnicity and culture go hand in hand. In today's age that has become a bit less defined, but by separating the two, you are being able to say, hey I'm not racist, but I hate everything about this person's culture. Since genetically we are all the same, culture is the only thing that really distinguishes us.
And there is nothing wrong with that at all since culture is something you chose. Race is not. I am perfectly allowed to dislike an oppressive and hateful culture.
But you don't get to choose culture, not 100%. The whole reason you see a culture as oppressive and hateful is because of your own upbringing. Culture is something you are exposed to since the day you are born, many times without you even noticing. Yea, once you get older you may shed aspects of that culture, but it has to be a conscious effort. And like I said, most of these oppressive/hateful cultures are just products of religion. There is much more to culture than that.
Let's pretend that all you just said is true. What exactly is your point?
That you are dismissing entire cultures based on one small/probably not universial/ mostly likely highly religion dependent aspect. Or that is the impression I am getting. But since you never really made a point, just tried to put mine down, it's kinda hard for me to identify the point of my dialogue with you. How do you not see the irony and hipocrisy in what you are saying?
On August 12 2012 02:07 Thorakh wrote: [quote]And neither does anyone in this thread. Race =/= culture. Racism is bad. 'Culturalism' is not.
What.
So you'd be fine if there would be a movement promoting the superiority of the German/American/Russian culture with the obvious incentive to free all people with lesser culture so they can finally live the same dream as everyone who is already part of the superior culture?
Race, culture, religion, actually ANY idea with the built in promise that it's superior and that wrongbelievers (or those with the wrong blood) have to be purged or, sorry, enlightened leads to pretty similar results.
People from different cultures/races/religions are... guess what: Different. No policy and no amount of talk you can do will convince anyone from anything else. People don't want to be from the same tribe so to speak. Encouraging that being different is completely okay would be a start instead of telling everyone that it's not okay and that they should be more similar to each other.
What you've just argued is that purging is bad and therefore any issue which purging could be used as a solution to shouldn't be recognised as an issue. Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid.
Truely homophobic and sexist cultures, in other words cultures where the raped women is guilty and where homosexuals are persecuted and killed, are indeed inferior. But I'm not sure if that's what you meant by that.
If by sexist/homophobic cultures you mean cultures in which men and women are not undifferentiated entities who can occupy the same jobs and do the same things, then your idea of a Western culture is different to the traditional European culture, and foreign as well.
That's why the traditional European culture is inferior as well.
So your idea of a counter-culture is an individualistic society composed of undifferentiated entities who share no real culture, except tolerating few stuff. No wonder why the conversion to Islam is skyrocketting in Europe.
No, my idea of society is a mix of open cultures who respect each other and have no 'values' which dictate the oppressing or harming of others.
If you keep on trying to protect the "West" under the banner of "gay marriage and adoption", or the right for women to dress up like sluts and not suffer from any sexist remarks, then you're doomed to fail, and to drag us all down with you.
I don't see anything wrong with those things being part of a larger culture of tolerance and acceptance of peoples values. As long as people are willing to fight for everybody having the chance to follow those values instead of accepting that others have other values and violently oppose them.
My point is that foreign people wouldn't abundon their culture without something to recover lost ground. This can't be this vast nothingness masquerading itself as "tolerance" and which in fact corresponds to an individualistic apathy.
But you surely cannot mean we, as 'the West', have to change our nonoppressive, nonhateful and rational ways of life, in order to make immigrants with hate cultures feel at home, do you???? That is the most backwards way of thinking I've ever seen. They should adapt to us, not the other way around.
Your way of thinking is exactly why our countries are going down the shitter.
Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid.
Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty".
Roleplay time. You are a homosexual woman who likes to travel alone and drive cars. Where would you rather live, Norway or Saudi Arabia?
Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on ? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil
In Sweden it's fairly small at least. They are in fact in parliament, but only with 4-5% of votes or so. There are a tonne of them on the internet though for some reason. There's a big Swedish forum where a huge percent are pretty hard core racist. I think it has to do with not going out very often. The overwhelming majority of people you'd actually meet don't have a problem with foreigners. There is often some prejudice of some kind though. I think that's very hard to avoid though.
That's my take on it at least.
Yeah this pretty much mirrors my experience. Flashback can be entertaining though, it's like entering a different reality.
I think you're right to a certain point, I think that most people are afraid to discuss immigration and multiculturism in public because of the political climate that actually exists in Sweden, if anyone criticise the immigration politics they will immediately be branded with "RACIST" and so has the climate been for a long time in Sweden, now the climate has changed a bit since SD has taken part in the parlament but the climate is almost the same, its sad that a real open debate cannot happen because of this witch hunt on everyone who's criticising the immigration and multicultarism.
That's just really strange. I haven't met anyone who's antisemitic, but almost everyone (actually everyone) I know are very much so against the politics of the state of Israel. Just as they're against the foreign politics of USA. Calling that antisemitism is very odd imo.
Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid.
Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty".
Roleplay time. You are a homosexual woman who likes to travel alone and drive cars. Where would you rather live, Norway or Saudi Arabia?
Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on ? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil
Not Sweden, I say to my great disappointment. Our unswerving determination to adapt to even to most absurd values and most repulsive traditions of foreign countries on the thinly veiled pretext of tolerance and inclusiveness is as ardent as ever.
Social friction and segregation are becoming real problems though, we'll see what happens.
How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed.
Did you somehow extrapolate racist views from what I wrote? My best friend since third grade is from Iran. My coach and several training partners of mine are from Brazil. I worked for for three years with a turkish guy, we still hang out.
It has nothing to do with the ethnicity of an individual person, it has to do with my country's lack of testicular fortitude in standing up for the core principles of our society. Some things just aren't desirable in a society that aims for equality.
You did say that it was your great disappointment that we don't have a 'big anti immigrant thing going on'.
No that was a post I quoted. And my sense of disappointment stems from the aforementioned lack of resolve in the face of oppressive and intolerant elements. But I'm hardly surprised, "racist" is the automatic defense employed these days against people who aren't keen on stoning women to death for having the audacity of being raped.
And please stop equating culture with race, it's really annoying and highly disingenuous. I can despise a culture without despising the people who come from that area.
Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid.
Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty".
Roleplay time. You are a homosexual woman who likes to travel alone and drive cars. Where would you rather live, Norway or Saudi Arabia?
Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on ? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil
Not Sweden, I say to my great disappointment. Our unswerving determination to adapt to even to most absurd values and most repulsive traditions of foreign countries on the thinly veiled pretext of tolerance and inclusiveness is as ardent as ever.
Social friction and segregation are becoming real problems though, we'll see what happens.
How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed.
Did you somehow extrapolate racist views from what I wrote? My best friend since third grade is from Iran. My coach and several training partners of mine are from Brazil. I worked for for three years with a turkish guy, we still hang out.
It has nothing to do with the ethnicity of an individual person, it has to do with my country's lack of testicular fortitude in standing up for the core principles of our society. Some things just aren't desirable in a society that aims for equality.
You did say that it was your great disappointment that we don't have a 'big anti immigrant thing going on'.
No that was a post I quoted. And my sense of disappointment stems from the aforementioned lack of resolve in the face of oppressive and intolerant elements. But I'm hardly surprised, "racist" is the automatic defense employed these days against people who aren't keen on stoning women to death for having the audacity of being raped.
And please stop equating culture with race, it's really annoying and highly disingenuous. I can despise a culture without despising the people who come from that area.
I'm sorry what? I think pretty much everyone agrees that killing people, let alone stoning them, is a bad thing? You quoted a post saying that there's a lot of 'anti immigrants' in Scandinavia, and answered 'no, to my great disappointment'. I'm not sure what this has to do with women being stoned and raped :/
Edit. Oh right I see. You meant the part about the woman driving safely ^^ I'm a bit slow today. Sorry.
Edit 2. Wait what? That doesn't make sense either. Could you clarify please?
Then again, they did not have that stupid idea that skin color equals superiority or inferiority.
And neither does anyone in this thread. Race =/= culture. Racism is bad. 'Culturalism' is not.
What.
So you'd be fine if there would be a movement promoting the superiority of the German/American/Russian culture with the obvious incentive to free all people with lesser culture so they can finally live the same dream as everyone who is already part of the superior culture?
Race, culture, religion, actually ANY idea with the built in promise that it's superior and that wrongbelievers (or those with the wrong blood) have to be purged or, sorry, enlightened leads to pretty similar results.
People from different cultures/races/religions are... guess what: Different. No policy and no amount of talk you can do will convince anyone from anything else. People don't want to be from the same tribe so to speak. Encouraging that being different is completely okay would be a start instead of telling everyone that it's not okay and that they should be more similar to each other.
What you've just argued is that purging is bad and therefore any issue which purging could be used as a solution to shouldn't be recognised as an issue. Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid.
I'm argueing that even if a culture is homophobic or sexist it's a very thin line to judge them coming from a different culture. Personally I believe that any culture where one persons freedom ends where another persons freedom begins is superior to one without that built in premise.
However, once I go out on the streets and start threatening anyone who doesn't agree with me I'm being a "culturalist" who is not better than a racist.
Then again, they did not have that stupid idea that skin color equals superiority or inferiority.
And neither does anyone in this thread. Race =/= culture. Racism is bad. 'Culturalism' is not.
What.
So you'd be fine if there would be a movement promoting the superiority of the German/American/Russian culture with the obvious incentive to free all people with lesser culture so they can finally live the same dream as everyone who is already part of the superior culture?
Race, culture, religion, actually ANY idea with the built in promise that it's superior and that wrongbelievers (or those with the wrong blood) have to be purged or, sorry, enlightened leads to pretty similar results.
People from different cultures/races/religions are... guess what: Different. No policy and no amount of talk you can do will convince anyone from anything else. People don't want to be from the same tribe so to speak. Encouraging that being different is completely okay would be a start instead of telling everyone that it's not okay and that they should be more similar to each other.
How can you even believe crap like this? If my culture tells me that diseases are caused by babies and that the only way to cure a disease is to kill a baby, you are telling me it's okay because being different is okay? Some cultures are objectively inferior. Period. You aren't born with a culture like you are born with skin color and race. Religion and culture are both things that can be inferior. Race and skin color are not. The two are not comparable.
I'm telling others they should stop harming and oppressing others. Where is the wrong in that?
Most of the nobel prices went to jewish people. Are you saying that the jewish religion is clearly superior from a scientific point of view and that all scientists should consider converting?
I'm not on an internet where I can doublecheck right now so smack me in the face if I'm wrong - last time I checked most of the sprinters/runners in the olympics were black. Would you say that this is because of their upbringing, religion, culture or race?
As I just said, I would love to see a culture spread all over this planet where the basic premise is that hurting other beings is bad. However, that doesn't give me the right to impose that on everyone just because I personally think it's the best way to solve most of earths problems. I'm lucky that I live in a country (like probably most of us) where I can stop someone from hurting another person and have the law and the gouvernment on my side. That doesn't mean I can walk into a place where this isn't the case, act as if it is and then be surprised if I'm the one who ends up being jailed.
"Sanctity of human life" is just one of many values that our culture brought forth. It's not a better or worse value than "eating cats is bad" or "hitting your children is bad". I can think of lots of reasons that these values are better than their opposites but that doesn't exactly make them "good" or "bad" - those are human adjectives based on what (hinthinthint) our culture, our majority of people perceives to be "good" or "bad".
If you have a country or society where the majority has different values it would be pretty damn democratic to not try and take moral highground after applying a different set of rules and values than they do. It is incredibly hard to find out whether a person in a, from our view, horrible situation is fine with it or not. And even IF they say they're fine with it we can argue that they wouldn't be fine with it if they'd knew there was another way. However, the exact same argument can be made from the other side.
Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid.
Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty".
Roleplay time. You are a homosexual woman who likes to travel alone and drive cars. Where would you rather live, Norway or Saudi Arabia?
Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on ? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil
Not Sweden, I say to my great disappointment. Our unswerving determination to adapt to even to most absurd values and most repulsive traditions of foreign countries on the thinly veiled pretext of tolerance and inclusiveness is as ardent as ever.
Social friction and segregation are becoming real problems though, we'll see what happens.
How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed.
Did you somehow extrapolate racist views from what I wrote? My best friend since third grade is from Iran. My coach and several training partners of mine are from Brazil. I worked for for three years with a turkish guy, we still hang out.
It has nothing to do with the ethnicity of an individual person, it has to do with my country's lack of testicular fortitude in standing up for the core principles of our society. Some things just aren't desirable in a society that aims for equality.
You did say that it was your great disappointment that we don't have a 'big anti immigrant thing going on'.
No that was a post I quoted. And my sense of disappointment stems from the aforementioned lack of resolve in the face of oppressive and intolerant elements. But I'm hardly surprised, "racist" is the automatic defense employed these days against people who aren't keen on stoning women to death for having the audacity of being raped.
And please stop equating culture with race, it's really annoying and highly disingenuous. I can despise a culture without despising the people who come from that area.
You sound like a hardcore Bible Belter from the US. "I don't hate gays, I just hate all the gay things they do."
So you'd be fine if there would be a movement promoting the superiority of the German/American/Russian culture with the obvious incentive to free all people with lesser culture so they can finally live the same dream as everyone who is already part of the superior culture?
Race, culture, religion, actually ANY idea with the built in promise that it's superior and that wrongbelievers (or those with the wrong blood) have to be purged or, sorry, enlightened leads to pretty similar results.
People from different cultures/races/religions are... guess what: Different. No policy and no amount of talk you can do will convince anyone from anything else. People don't want to be from the same tribe so to speak. Encouraging that being different is completely okay would be a start instead of telling everyone that it's not okay and that they should be more similar to each other.
What you've just argued is that purging is bad and therefore any issue which purging could be used as a solution to shouldn't be recognised as an issue. Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid.
Truely homophobic and sexist cultures, in other words cultures where the raped women is guilty and where homosexuals are persecuted and killed, are indeed inferior. But I'm not sure if that's what you meant by that.
If by sexist/homophobic cultures you mean cultures in which men and women are not undifferentiated entities who can occupy the same jobs and do the same things, then your idea of a Western culture is different to the traditional European culture, and foreign as well.
That's why the traditional European culture is inferior as well.
So your idea of a counter-culture is an individualistic society composed of undifferentiated entities who share no real culture, except tolerating few stuff. No wonder why the conversion to Islam is skyrocketting in Europe.
No, my idea of society is a mix of open cultures who respect each other and have no 'values' which dictate the oppressing or harming of others.
If you keep on trying to protect the "West" under the banner of "gay marriage and adoption", or the right for women to dress up like sluts and not suffer from any sexist remarks, then you're doomed to fail, and to drag us all down with you.
I don't see anything wrong with those things being part of a larger culture of tolerance and acceptance of peoples values. As long as people are willing to fight for everybody having the chance to follow those values instead of accepting that others have other values and violently oppose them.
My point is that foreign people wouldn't abundon their culture without something to recover lost ground. This can't be this vast nothingness masquerading itself as "tolerance" and which in fact corresponds to an individualistic apathy.
But you surely cannot mean we, as 'the West', have to change our nonoppressive, nonhateful and rational ways of life, in order to make immigrants with hate cultures feel at home, do you???? That is the most backwards way of thinking I've ever seen. They should adapt to us, not the other way around.
Your way of thinking is exactly why our countries are going down the shitter.
Ok. Here is one of my previous comment for you.
On ... SiroKO wrote Truely homophobic and sexist cultures, in other words cultures where the raped women is guilty and where homosexuals are persecuted and killed, are indeed inferior. But I'm not sure if that's what you meant by that.
If by sexist/homophobic cultures you mean cultures in which men and women are not undifferentiated entities who can occupy the same jobs and do the same things, then your idea of a Western culture is different to the traditional European culture, and foreign as well.
You know the principle of Paracelse ? One of the fundamentals of pharmacology.
"Everything is poison, nothing is poison. The dose makes the poison" In other words, too few tolerance is nefast, but tolerating everything is equally harmful in the long run.
You see the world binarily. I've already commented on that. People are either pro-shariah, pro-stoning, pro-homosexual murdering, or on your side. Let me tell you my friends, they're subtleties. Even among the fundamentals Islamists, they're a lot of divergences on pretty much all issues.
Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid.
Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty".
Roleplay time. You are a homosexual woman who likes to travel alone and drive cars. Where would you rather live, Norway or Saudi Arabia?
Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on ? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil
Not Sweden, I say to my great disappointment. Our unswerving determination to adapt to even to most absurd values and most repulsive traditions of foreign countries on the thinly veiled pretext of tolerance and inclusiveness is as ardent as ever.
Social friction and segregation are becoming real problems though, we'll see what happens.
How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed.
Did you somehow extrapolate racist views from what I wrote? My best friend since third grade is from Iran. My coach and several training partners of mine are from Brazil. I worked for for three years with a turkish guy, we still hang out.
It has nothing to do with the ethnicity of an individual person, it has to do with my country's lack of testicular fortitude in standing up for the core principles of our society. Some things just aren't desirable in a society that aims for equality.
You did say that it was your great disappointment that we don't have a 'big anti immigrant thing going on'.
No that was a post I quoted. And my sense of disappointment stems from the aforementioned lack of resolve in the face of oppressive and intolerant elements. But I'm hardly surprised, "racist" is the automatic defense employed these days against people who aren't keen on stoning women to death for having the audacity of being raped.
And please stop equating culture with race, it's really annoying and highly disingenuous. I can despise a culture without despising the people who come from that area.
I'm sorry what? I think pretty much everyone agrees that killing people, let alone stoning them, is a bad thing? You quoted a post saying that there's a lot of 'anti immigrants' in Scandinavia, and answered 'no, to my great disappointment'. I'm not sure what this has to do with women being stoned and raped :/
Edit. Oh right I see. You meant the part about the woman driving safely ^^ I'm a bit slow today. Sorry.
Ok, my turn to go "uh what?" Driving safely? Que?
If everyone agreed that stoning and killing people is bad we would not be having this conversation.
I read the post as anti-immigration, not anti-immigrants, if I was mistaken then I apologise.
And really now, you didn't get the point of the stoning and rape analogy? It was made to illustrate the notion that anyone who opposes certain elements of foreign cultures, no matter how despicable, is labeled a racist. There are a sect of hardcore muslims in Sweden who want to practice Sharia law within their own community. Are people who vehemently reject this notion racists?
Immigration is fine, but we have got to stop eroding our founding principles to accommodate multiculturalism.
Some cultures are shitty, identifying that homophobic/sexist cultures are worse than none homophobic/sexist cultures doesn't mean I am in favour of purges. Acting like they're all equal but different ignores potential humanitarian solutions through education and aid.
Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty".
Roleplay time. You are a homosexual woman who likes to travel alone and drive cars. Where would you rather live, Norway or Saudi Arabia?
Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on ? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil
Not Sweden, I say to my great disappointment. Our unswerving determination to adapt to even to most absurd values and most repulsive traditions of foreign countries on the thinly veiled pretext of tolerance and inclusiveness is as ardent as ever.
Social friction and segregation are becoming real problems though, we'll see what happens.
How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed.
Did you somehow extrapolate racist views from what I wrote? My best friend since third grade is from Iran. My coach and several training partners of mine are from Brazil. I worked for for three years with a turkish guy, we still hang out.
It has nothing to do with the ethnicity of an individual person, it has to do with my country's lack of testicular fortitude in standing up for the core principles of our society. Some things just aren't desirable in a society that aims for equality.
You did say that it was your great disappointment that we don't have a 'big anti immigrant thing going on'.
No that was a post I quoted. And my sense of disappointment stems from the aforementioned lack of resolve in the face of oppressive and intolerant elements. But I'm hardly surprised, "racist" is the automatic defense employed these days against people who aren't keen on stoning women to death for having the audacity of being raped.
And please stop equating culture with race, it's really annoying and highly disingenuous. I can despise a culture without despising the people who come from that area.
You sound like a hardcore Bible Belter from the US. "I don't hate gays, I just hate all the gay things they do."
Odd, as I'm a hardline atheist and completely against any form of religious appeasement.
And the analogy is completely flawed. Gays are not an ethnic group, nor do they share a common set of values or beliefs. I despise certain people and their actions, if I feel it's warranted. If it's systematic, as in a cultural phenomenon, even more so.
Again stop comparing race or sexual preference to culture. The latter is chosen, the former are not. You are born gay, not a misogynist or homophobe.
That's just really strange. I haven't met anyone who's antisemitic, but almost everyone (actually everyone) I know are very much so against the politics of the state of Israel. Just as they're against the foreign politics of USA. Calling that antisemitism is very odd imo.
I will link it once more. Note how schools for Jews need extra securty due to the Anti Semitic nature of Islam.
Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty".
Roleplay time. You are a homosexual woman who likes to travel alone and drive cars. Where would you rather live, Norway or Saudi Arabia?
Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on ? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil
Not Sweden, I say to my great disappointment. Our unswerving determination to adapt to even to most absurd values and most repulsive traditions of foreign countries on the thinly veiled pretext of tolerance and inclusiveness is as ardent as ever.
Social friction and segregation are becoming real problems though, we'll see what happens.
How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed.
Did you somehow extrapolate racist views from what I wrote? My best friend since third grade is from Iran. My coach and several training partners of mine are from Brazil. I worked for for three years with a turkish guy, we still hang out.
It has nothing to do with the ethnicity of an individual person, it has to do with my country's lack of testicular fortitude in standing up for the core principles of our society. Some things just aren't desirable in a society that aims for equality.
You did say that it was your great disappointment that we don't have a 'big anti immigrant thing going on'.
No that was a post I quoted. And my sense of disappointment stems from the aforementioned lack of resolve in the face of oppressive and intolerant elements. But I'm hardly surprised, "racist" is the automatic defense employed these days against people who aren't keen on stoning women to death for having the audacity of being raped.
And please stop equating culture with race, it's really annoying and highly disingenuous. I can despise a culture without despising the people who come from that area.
I'm sorry what? I think pretty much everyone agrees that killing people, let alone stoning them, is a bad thing? You quoted a post saying that there's a lot of 'anti immigrants' in Scandinavia, and answered 'no, to my great disappointment'. I'm not sure what this has to do with women being stoned and raped :/
Edit. Oh right I see. You meant the part about the woman driving safely ^^ I'm a bit slow today. Sorry.
Ok, my turn to go "uh what?" Driving safely? Que?
If everyone agreed that stoning and killing people is bad we would not be having this conversation.
I read the post as anti-immigration, not anti-immigrants, if I was mistaken then I apologise.
And really now, you didn't get the point of the stoning and rape analogy? It was made to illustrate the notion that anyone who opposes certain elements of foreign cultures, no matter how despicable, is labeled a racist. There are a sect of hardcore muslims in Sweden who want to practice Sharia law within their own community. Are people who vehemently reject this notion racists?
Immigration is fine, but we have got to stop eroding our founding principles to accommodate multiculturalism.
I don't see how you have to be anti immigrants because some of them are nut jobs. I mean it's never going to get passed, and I don't think anyone (who actually has a clue about what sharia law is) would call an opposer of that a racist.
The post you quoted was literally "Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil" and he in turn replied to a person talking about a gay girl either driving in Saudi Arabia (where it's illegal for women to drive) or Norway.
That's just really strange. I haven't met anyone who's antisemitic, but almost everyone (actually everyone) I know are very much so against the politics of the state of Israel. Just as they're against the foreign politics of USA. Calling that antisemitism is very odd imo.
I will link it once more. Note how schools for Jews need extra securty due to the Anti Semitic nature of Islam.
Those are single experiences from a town with the worst suburbs in the country, and quite possibly all of northern Europe. It's basically the shit hole of Scandinavia. None is treated well there. What's your point?
The video I quoted was about Swedes being antisemitic which I don't think is true. There is however a very big dislike towards the behaviour of the state of Israel, but that's not being antisemitic.
In other words, too few tolerance is nefast, but tolerating everything is equally harmful in the long run.
No it isn't. What is harmful however, is your view on this matter. Homosexuals don't harm anyone and therefore homosexuality cannot be wrong. There is not a single rational argument against homosexuality, women voting and working, women dressing up a certain way, etc.
If something doesn't harm, it, by definition, cannot be wrong.
Plus, I never even said everything should be tolerated. Everything which does not harm should be tolerated.
You know the principle of Paracelse ? One of the fundamentals of pharmacology.
"Everything is poison, nothing is poison. The dose makes the poison"
Pharmacology has no relevance at all to this discussion.
"Sanctity of human life" is just one of many values that our culture brought forth. It's not a better or worse value than "eating cats is bad" or "hitting your children is bad". I can think of lots of reasons that these values are better than their opposites but that doesn't exactly make them "good" or "bad" - those are human adjectives based on what (hinthinthint) our culture, our majority of people perceives to be "good" or "bad".
If you have a country or society where the majority has different values it would be pretty damn democratic to not try and take moral highground after applying a different set of rules and values than they do. It is incredibly hard to find out whether a person in a, from our view, horrible situation is fine with it or not. And even IF they say they're fine with it we can argue that they wouldn't be fine with it if they'd knew there was another way. However, the exact same argument can be made from the other side.
I'm sorry, but that is complete and utter balls. Suuuuure, that woman over there being stoned because she was raped surely doesn't have any problems with it!
Roleplay time. You are a homosexual woman who likes to travel alone and drive cars. Where would you rather live, Norway or Saudi Arabia?
Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on ? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil
Not Sweden, I say to my great disappointment. Our unswerving determination to adapt to even to most absurd values and most repulsive traditions of foreign countries on the thinly veiled pretext of tolerance and inclusiveness is as ardent as ever.
Social friction and segregation are becoming real problems though, we'll see what happens.
How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed.
Did you somehow extrapolate racist views from what I wrote? My best friend since third grade is from Iran. My coach and several training partners of mine are from Brazil. I worked for for three years with a turkish guy, we still hang out.
It has nothing to do with the ethnicity of an individual person, it has to do with my country's lack of testicular fortitude in standing up for the core principles of our society. Some things just aren't desirable in a society that aims for equality.
You did say that it was your great disappointment that we don't have a 'big anti immigrant thing going on'.
No that was a post I quoted. And my sense of disappointment stems from the aforementioned lack of resolve in the face of oppressive and intolerant elements. But I'm hardly surprised, "racist" is the automatic defense employed these days against people who aren't keen on stoning women to death for having the audacity of being raped.
And please stop equating culture with race, it's really annoying and highly disingenuous. I can despise a culture without despising the people who come from that area.
I'm sorry what? I think pretty much everyone agrees that killing people, let alone stoning them, is a bad thing? You quoted a post saying that there's a lot of 'anti immigrants' in Scandinavia, and answered 'no, to my great disappointment'. I'm not sure what this has to do with women being stoned and raped :/
Edit. Oh right I see. You meant the part about the woman driving safely ^^ I'm a bit slow today. Sorry.
Ok, my turn to go "uh what?" Driving safely? Que?
If everyone agreed that stoning and killing people is bad we would not be having this conversation.
I read the post as anti-immigration, not anti-immigrants, if I was mistaken then I apologise.
And really now, you didn't get the point of the stoning and rape analogy? It was made to illustrate the notion that anyone who opposes certain elements of foreign cultures, no matter how despicable, is labeled a racist. There are a sect of hardcore muslims in Sweden who want to practice Sharia law within their own community. Are people who vehemently reject this notion racists?
Immigration is fine, but we have got to stop eroding our founding principles to accommodate multiculturalism.
I don't see how you have to be anti immigrants because some of them are nut jobs. I mean it's never going to get passed, and I don't think anyone (who actually has a clue about what sharia law is) would call an opposer of that a racist.
The post you quoted was literally "Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil" and he in turn replied to a person talking about a gay girl either driving in Saudi Arabia (where it's illegal for women to drive) or Norway.
I know, I wrote the post he was quoting. The point of it was that there are places where being a woman or gay is considerable more pleasant than others. And those places are better for it.
For the umpteenth and hopefully final time, I am not anti-immigrant. I am against the idea that all ideas are equal, that all belief systems have equal validity. The idea that the earth is flat does not have equal validity with the idea that the earth is round(or slightly oval, as it were). In the same vein, the idea that homosexuality is a sin and should be punishable is not equal to the idea that it is natural and should not be discriminated against, it is inferior. And please, for the love of the FSM, the above example was an analogy, literal interpretation is not advised.
Whole cultures arent shitty. Individuals, that belong to a certain culture can be shitty. For example you can´t identify a cultural group, that´s collective homophobic. Influential groups or even the majority might be, but not everybody. It leads inevitable to discrimination if you claim that for example, "the whole muslimic culture is sexist and thus shitty".
Roleplay time. You are a homosexual woman who likes to travel alone and drive cars. Where would you rather live, Norway or Saudi Arabia?
Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on ? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil
Not Sweden, I say to my great disappointment. Our unswerving determination to adapt to even to most absurd values and most repulsive traditions of foreign countries on the thinly veiled pretext of tolerance and inclusiveness is as ardent as ever.
Social friction and segregation are becoming real problems though, we'll see what happens.
How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed.
Did you somehow extrapolate racist views from what I wrote? My best friend since third grade is from Iran. My coach and several training partners of mine are from Brazil. I worked for for three years with a turkish guy, we still hang out.
It has nothing to do with the ethnicity of an individual person, it has to do with my country's lack of testicular fortitude in standing up for the core principles of our society. Some things just aren't desirable in a society that aims for equality.
You did say that it was your great disappointment that we don't have a 'big anti immigrant thing going on'.
No that was a post I quoted. And my sense of disappointment stems from the aforementioned lack of resolve in the face of oppressive and intolerant elements. But I'm hardly surprised, "racist" is the automatic defense employed these days against people who aren't keen on stoning women to death for having the audacity of being raped.
And please stop equating culture with race, it's really annoying and highly disingenuous. I can despise a culture without despising the people who come from that area.
You sound like a hardcore Bible Belter from the US. "I don't hate gays, I just hate all the gay things they do."
Odd, as I'm a hardline atheist and completely against any form of religious appeasement.
And the analogy is completely flawed. Gays are not an ethnic group, nor do they share a common set of values or beliefs. I despise certain people and their actions, if I feel it's warranted. If it's systematic, as in a cultural phenomenon, even more so.
Again stop comparing race or sexual preference to culture. The latter is chosen, the former are not. You are born gay, not a misogynist or homophobe.
The whole basis for your thinking is wrong.. I'm sorry but culture is not chosen. You are born into a certain culture and it takes enormous effort to completely separate yourself from that, if it's possible at all. Maybe culture and race and ethnicity are exclusive, but that doesn't mean culture is something that is purely chosen, as you seem to believe.
Roleplay time. You are a homosexual woman who likes to travel alone and drive cars. Where would you rather live, Norway or Saudi Arabia?
Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on ? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil
Not Sweden, I say to my great disappointment. Our unswerving determination to adapt to even to most absurd values and most repulsive traditions of foreign countries on the thinly veiled pretext of tolerance and inclusiveness is as ardent as ever.
Social friction and segregation are becoming real problems though, we'll see what happens.
How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed.
Did you somehow extrapolate racist views from what I wrote? My best friend since third grade is from Iran. My coach and several training partners of mine are from Brazil. I worked for for three years with a turkish guy, we still hang out.
It has nothing to do with the ethnicity of an individual person, it has to do with my country's lack of testicular fortitude in standing up for the core principles of our society. Some things just aren't desirable in a society that aims for equality.
You did say that it was your great disappointment that we don't have a 'big anti immigrant thing going on'.
No that was a post I quoted. And my sense of disappointment stems from the aforementioned lack of resolve in the face of oppressive and intolerant elements. But I'm hardly surprised, "racist" is the automatic defense employed these days against people who aren't keen on stoning women to death for having the audacity of being raped.
And please stop equating culture with race, it's really annoying and highly disingenuous. I can despise a culture without despising the people who come from that area.
You sound like a hardcore Bible Belter from the US. "I don't hate gays, I just hate all the gay things they do."
Odd, as I'm a hardline atheist and completely against any form of religious appeasement.
And the analogy is completely flawed. Gays are not an ethnic group, nor do they share a common set of values or beliefs. I despise certain people and their actions, if I feel it's warranted. If it's systematic, as in a cultural phenomenon, even more so.
Again stop comparing race or sexual preference to culture. The latter is chosen, the former are not. You are born gay, not a misogynist or homophobe.
The whole basis for your thinking is wrong.. I'm sorry but culture is not chosen. You are born into a certain culture and it takes enormous effort to completely separate yourself from that, if it's possible at all. Maybe culture and race and ethnicity are exclusive, but that doesn't mean culture is something that is purely chosen, as you seem to believe.
There are plenty of people who free themselves from their culture. It certainly isn't impossible. In fact, there is no excuse for not adopting the better alternative when confronted with it (and being confronted with includes moving to another country).
Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on ? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil
Not Sweden, I say to my great disappointment. Our unswerving determination to adapt to even to most absurd values and most repulsive traditions of foreign countries on the thinly veiled pretext of tolerance and inclusiveness is as ardent as ever.
Social friction and segregation are becoming real problems though, we'll see what happens.
How do you suffer being on Team Liquid? I don't get it. I've always seen Team Liquid as a pretty multicultural/multiethnic body. Or you can only tolerate infererior non-blond- non-blue eyed races over the internet, but god forbid they try to live in your country? I found it funny that in the Olympics, many of the traditionally White Nordic countries still sent Black athletes to compete. Just something I noticed.
Did you somehow extrapolate racist views from what I wrote? My best friend since third grade is from Iran. My coach and several training partners of mine are from Brazil. I worked for for three years with a turkish guy, we still hang out.
It has nothing to do with the ethnicity of an individual person, it has to do with my country's lack of testicular fortitude in standing up for the core principles of our society. Some things just aren't desirable in a society that aims for equality.
You did say that it was your great disappointment that we don't have a 'big anti immigrant thing going on'.
No that was a post I quoted. And my sense of disappointment stems from the aforementioned lack of resolve in the face of oppressive and intolerant elements. But I'm hardly surprised, "racist" is the automatic defense employed these days against people who aren't keen on stoning women to death for having the audacity of being raped.
And please stop equating culture with race, it's really annoying and highly disingenuous. I can despise a culture without despising the people who come from that area.
I'm sorry what? I think pretty much everyone agrees that killing people, let alone stoning them, is a bad thing? You quoted a post saying that there's a lot of 'anti immigrants' in Scandinavia, and answered 'no, to my great disappointment'. I'm not sure what this has to do with women being stoned and raped :/
Edit. Oh right I see. You meant the part about the woman driving safely ^^ I'm a bit slow today. Sorry.
Ok, my turn to go "uh what?" Driving safely? Que?
If everyone agreed that stoning and killing people is bad we would not be having this conversation.
I read the post as anti-immigration, not anti-immigrants, if I was mistaken then I apologise.
And really now, you didn't get the point of the stoning and rape analogy? It was made to illustrate the notion that anyone who opposes certain elements of foreign cultures, no matter how despicable, is labeled a racist. There are a sect of hardcore muslims in Sweden who want to practice Sharia law within their own community. Are people who vehemently reject this notion racists?
Immigration is fine, but we have got to stop eroding our founding principles to accommodate multiculturalism.
I don't see how you have to be anti immigrants because some of them are nut jobs. I mean it's never going to get passed, and I don't think anyone (who actually has a clue about what sharia law is) would call an opposer of that a racist.
The post you quoted was literally "Doesnt nordic countries have a big anti immigrant thing going on? If I was that woman id rather go to Brazil" and he in turn replied to a person talking about a gay girl either driving in Saudi Arabia (where it's illegal for women to drive) or Norway.
I know, I wrote the post he was quoting. The point of it was that there are places where being a woman or gay is considerable more pleasant than others. And those places are better for it.
For the umpteenth and hopefully final time, I am not anti-immigrant. I am against the idea that all ideas are equal, that all belief systems have equal validity. The idea that the earth is flat does not have equal validity with the idea that the earth is round(or slightly oval, as it were). In the same vein, the idea that homosexuality is a sin and should be punishable is not equal to the idea that it is natural and should not be discriminated against, it is inferior. And please, for the love of the FSM, the above example was an analogy, literal interpretation is not advised.
So once again please explain why not having a big anti immigrant movement is your great dissapointment? I still don't get that part.
You're against the idea that all ideas are equal. Well I'm sure everyone is. I mean everyone's had a bad idea, that can be recognized as bad and there you are. It's not a very revolutionary concept is it?
EPT
