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Keep Nation bragging and the political debate out. |
On August 06 2012 06:13 Catch]22 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 06:12 gasmeter wrote:On August 06 2012 00:51 ZXRP wrote:
I would like to share a quote from an episode of the West Wing where the character Sam Seaborn was asked this very question.
Sam Seaborn: There are a lot of hungry people in the world, Mal, and none of them are hungry 'cause we went to the moon. None of them are colder and certainly none of them are dumber 'cause we went to the moon.
Mallory O'Brian: And we went to the moon. Do we really have to go to Mars?
Sam Seaborn: Yes.
Mallory O'Brian: Why?
Sam Seaborn: 'Cause it's next. 'Cause we came out of the cave, and we looked over the hill and we saw fire; and we crossed the ocean and we pioneered the west, and we took to the sky. The history of man is hung on a timeline of exploration and this is what's next. One of the most beautiful descriptions of why space exploration is important I have ever heard. You are right, 18 billion dollars could hardly feed anyone. I still support a Mars initiative, just not right now with the recession etc.
It's not 18 billion dollars. It's 18 billion dollars of the US budget. There's a political reality that dictates how that money could be spent if it was taken away from NASA. The political reality is that it would never be spent on feeding the hungry or other meaningful development.
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On August 05 2012 20:27 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Another way to burn our money uselessly. Really what's to be had in all these space missions in this time when the economy is barely floating.
People like you make me sick
Let's see: You're on a starcraft website, where a VIDEO GAME company made a VIDEO GAME so people can WASTE TIME but they made & put in millions upon millions of dollars. then they have tournaments that pay HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars every year, for playing a GAME. but yeah landing on mars is so useless *sarcasm*
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On August 06 2012 09:13 Cheerio wrote:Nice find. Really interested how it goes on. Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 09:07 Khul Sadukar wrote:
I'm all for exploration of space.
I just wish they would just drop the facade though. There is life on Mars, these missions are all about making the public think we're trying really had to find it. The rover is there just to do some some geology and take some readings, drive around a bit and send us more pictures of a red planet. It's nice and all but i'm wondering when they will finally drop the act. And with all this facade you came to know the truth... how exactly?
Because I don't believe any of the misinformation spread by the media that's designed to keep us in the dark on such things.
Go out there and obtain some real knowledge for yourself. That is the only way to learn.
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On August 06 2012 09:32 Khul Sadukar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 09:13 Cheerio wrote:Nice find. Really interested how it goes on. On August 06 2012 09:07 Khul Sadukar wrote:
I'm all for exploration of space.
I just wish they would just drop the facade though. There is life on Mars, these missions are all about making the public think we're trying really had to find it. The rover is there just to do some some geology and take some readings, drive around a bit and send us more pictures of a red planet. It's nice and all but i'm wondering when they will finally drop the act. And with all this facade you came to know the truth... how exactly? Because I don't believe any of the misinformation spread by the media that's designed to keep us in the dark on such things. Go out there and obtain some real knowledge for yourself. That is the only way to learn.
Lol you are talking in riddles, give us some real information. You sound like you know something we don't, but you won't tell us what.
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On August 06 2012 09:32 Khul Sadukar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 09:13 Cheerio wrote:Nice find. Really interested how it goes on. On August 06 2012 09:07 Khul Sadukar wrote:
I'm all for exploration of space.
I just wish they would just drop the facade though. There is life on Mars, these missions are all about making the public think we're trying really had to find it. The rover is there just to do some some geology and take some readings, drive around a bit and send us more pictures of a red planet. It's nice and all but i'm wondering when they will finally drop the act. And with all this facade you came to know the truth... how exactly? Because I don't believe any of the misinformation spread by the media that's designed to keep us in the dark on such things. Go out there and obtain some real knowledge for yourself. That is the only way to learn.
Careful. You are beginning to sound real conspiracy-y...
Plus, the media reports I've read about the mission haven't been that way at all. You need to go to better sources.
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The only true source of information is experience. That's all i have to say.
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On August 06 2012 09:40 Khul Sadukar wrote:
The only true source of information is experience. That's all i have to say.
"Experience that isn't corroborated is indistinguishable from hallucination."
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On August 06 2012 09:40 Khul Sadukar wrote:
The only true source of information is experience. That's all i have to say.
Extra-terrestial contact eh.... O_o
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On August 06 2012 09:40 Khul Sadukar wrote:
The only true source of information is experience. That's all i have to say.
Nah, I'm not gonna let you off the hook with that dogmatic statement. There are many sources of information. Personal experience is a terrible source if you're looking for empirical facts. You can argue that it's the only logical source since everything is filtered through experience and therefore, there is nothing but experience through which to inform oneself. But if you're not an outright Solipsist, and take external reality as given, you have to admit that personal experience can be deceived. As such, it behooves one to tease out the true from the false, and so far, the best that humanity has produced as a method to achieve this goal is the scientific method and so you to be wary of the multiplicity of sources and the methods that produce them.
That ends my pseudo-intellectual rambling... I'm procrastinating and bored.
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Nothing so dramatic lol. It's just something I know deep down. We are not alone.
On August 06 2012 09:44 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 09:40 Khul Sadukar wrote:
The only true source of information is experience. That's all i have to say. "Experience that isn't corroborated is indistinguishable from hallucination."
What a load of bull. I guess by that definition mass hallucination is self reinforcing.
I appreciate that many see science as the answer to everything. To me its just another form of religion with its own set of rules to believe in.
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On August 06 2012 09:31 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 20:27 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Another way to burn our money uselessly. Really what's to be had in all these space missions in this time when the economy is barely floating. People like you make me sick
Eh this issue isn't as obvious as people make it sound (as well as the obligatory Tyson video that is repeated ad nauseum). Back when space exploration and moon landings were still new ventures that required the development of amazing new technologies to accomplish (along with their spin-off earth applications), it certainly was worth it to venture into space. But if we were, for example, to send several more rockets to the moon to explore some of the craters we would gain very little.
It is always a good thing to ask whether a particular venture is likely to create similar results; just because its space doesn't mean that everything we do there will lead to technological breakthroughs and we can do it all blindly. Realistically speaking, what will sending more rovers to Mars accomplish? Maybe we will learn more about whether Mars could have supported life, but I don't know if we're making any meaningful advancements in other areas like rocketry, materials science, or the electronic systems required for these rovers - if anything we're just tweaking the systems and making gradual improvements.
People seem to forget that there are entire branches of science that have their own potential breakthroughs waiting to be found, which could be much more useful than our current space ventures both in terms of the jobs they provide people and the practical impact their discoveries could have on industry.
You can say that the NASA space budget is really small compared to military expenditures, but so what. The question is whether that budget is likely to yield meaningful developments besides studying the terrain of extraterrestrial worlds. If not, that 12 billion could be used to study fusion power, which in turn could act as a new means of propulsion for space-faring vessels to gather materials from asteroids and gas giants (or something sci-fi like that  ). Planetary Resources is an example of a company that would be worth such an investment; the value and breakthroughs likely to be gained through mining asteroids will have a huge impact not only through the typical means already discussed, but by inspiring kids to go into these fields (much more than sending rovers to Mars will). Damn it this turned out too long 
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On August 06 2012 10:07 radscorpion9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 09:31 Silidons wrote:On August 05 2012 20:27 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Another way to burn our money uselessly. Really what's to be had in all these space missions in this time when the economy is barely floating. People like you make me sick Eh this issue isn't as obvious as people make it sound (as well as the obligatory Tyson video that is repeated ad nauseum). Back when space exploration and moon landings were still new ventures that required the development of amazing new technologies to accomplish (along with their spin-off earth applications), it certainly was worth it to venture into space. But if we were, for example, to send several more rockets to the moon to explore some of the craters we would gain very little. It is always a good thing to ask whether a particular venture is likely to create similar results; just because its space doesn't mean that everything we do there will lead to technological breakthroughs and we can do it all blindly. Realistically speaking, what will sending more rovers to Mars accomplish? Maybe we will learn more about whether Mars could have supported life, but I don't know if we're making any meaningful advancements in other areas like rocketry, materials science, or the electronic systems required for these rovers - if anything we're just tweaking the systems and making gradual improvements. People seem to forget that there are entire branches of science that have their own potential breakthroughs waiting to be found, which could be much more useful than our current space ventures both in terms of the jobs they provide people and the practical impact their discoveries could have on industry. You can say that the NASA space budget is really small compared to military expenditures, but so what. The question is whether that budget is likely to yield meaningful developments besides studying the terrain of extraterrestrial worlds. If not, that 12 billion could be used to study fusion power, which in turn could act as a new means of propulsion for space-faring vessels to gather materials from asteroids and gas giants (or something sci-fi like that ). Planetary Resources is an example of a company that would be worth such an investment; the value and breakthroughs likely to be gained through mining asteroids will have a huge impact not only through the typical means already discussed, but by inspiring kids to go into these fields (much more than sending rovers to Mars will). Damn it this turned out too long
That's entirely reasonable but as far as I know, NASA's funding has already been cut to hell by the Obama administration. The current mission isn't just rehashing old technologies anyways and involves very intricate operations and complex technology that's being tried for the first time. There's also intrinsic value to the potential discoveries of this mission that benefits the culture of the human race. I think we're good for now.
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On August 06 2012 09:59 Khul Sadukar wrote:Nothing so dramatic lol. It's just something I know deep down. We are not alone. Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 09:44 hypercube wrote:On August 06 2012 09:40 Khul Sadukar wrote:
The only true source of information is experience. That's all i have to say. "Experience that isn't corroborated is indistinguishable from hallucination." What a load of bull. I guess by that definition mass hallucination is self reinforcing. I appreciate that many see science as the answer to everything. To me its just another form of religion with its own set of rules to believe in.
If Science is a religion, it is the only religion that does not rely on divine revelation to direct and inform its adherents. There is no belief but strong conviction apportioned by the available evidence. One does not believe in rules but follow them - that's dishonest semantics. If science were to find a better set of rules, it would abandon the old ones in a heartbeat. This is the difference between religion and science. They are completely incompatible.
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please, if you have not heard a good argument for why we should fund space exploration, go listen to Dr. Neil D. Tyson and hear his explanation of things.
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On August 05 2012 21:11 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 21:02 Twinkle Toes wrote:On August 05 2012 20:55 brachester wrote:On August 05 2012 20:27 Twinkle Toes wrote:
Another way to burn our money uselessly. Really what's to be had in all these space missions in this time when the economy is barely floating. It maybe useless in our lifetime but when you think about it in the perspective of the entire human race, it's not. I'll suggest you do some more research before saying everything is useless. Thank you for your reply, unfortunately it will also be your undoing. Let me throw back at you everything that you say: 1. Assuming "you think about it in the perspective of the entire human race", what are the benefits? 2. Do those future expected benefits outweigh the benefits of putting money now where it is needed, like more jobs, healthcare, etc.? Surely someone between us needs to do some research, and you know what, it ain't me bro. Sorry for being harsh on you. You made it sounds like there's a battle between us so I'm just gonna let you win this one if it makes you happy.
You're the one that started it, don't say things with an argumentative tone. Saying "I'll suggest you do some more research before saying everything is useless" is saying something in an argumentative tone. I'm not trying to start an argument or be rude, I'm just explaining for your sake why he responded the way he did.
Anyways, awesome little article. I didn't know this mission was even going on. Seems pretty interesting.
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This thread is a flame war with information sprinkled in.
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This is pretty exciting to say the least, but regarding the West Wing quote I don't think is fair to write the moon off as explored yet. Unless I'm mistaken none of the Apollo mission did any serious drilling to see what kinds of minerals might be hiding under the surface.
Of course I might be under estimating all those fancy cameras owned by our government.
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Spending money on space missions is the same as spending money on ANY type of research. Would you cut medical research from the world as well? Of course the money could be wasted, but it could also be an unthinkable breath-through that changes the way the human race behaves forever.
Not to mention having programs like cancer research and space exploration appeal to the very core of what motivates us as human beings, purpose. Young people are especially vulnerable to having their entire view of the world change when they hear about a program like this. Dedicating your academic career to maths and sciences can only lead to a better future.
Edit: Oh, and 18 bil / 3.8 tril (US Gov't expenditures) = .004 --> We are 'sacrificing' at most less than 1/200th of the total budget of the US Gov't in just 1 year.
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On August 06 2012 09:59 Khul Sadukar wrote:
Nothing so dramatic lol. It's just something I know deep down. We are not alone.
While the statistical likely-hood that Earth is the sole harbor of life in our universe is incredibly small, and that I personally believe that we will likely find many examples of life traces within the solar system itself eventually, that does not equate either proof of life existence outside of Earth, nor does it allude to a giant conspiracy to cover up Mars-based life.
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EPT
