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Boston Mayor vows to ban Chick-Fil-A from his city - Page 39

Forum Index > General Forum
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beat farm
Profile Joined October 2010
United States478 Posts
July 26 2012 17:57 GMT
#761
i feel bad for the people of boston for not being able to experience the deliciousness that is chick filet.
Praetorial
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States4241 Posts
July 26 2012 17:58 GMT
#762
On July 27 2012 02:57 beat farm wrote:
i feel bad for the people of boston for not being able to experience the deliciousness that is chick filet.


We have McDonalds.

Chicken nuggets are still good!
FOR GREAT JUSTICE! Bans for the ban gods!
Smat
Profile Joined January 2011
United States301 Posts
July 26 2012 17:59 GMT
#763
On July 27 2012 02:35 Felnarion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2012 02:25 Fyrewolf wrote:
On July 27 2012 02:16 Ryalnos wrote:
There seems to be this assumption that opposition to gay marriage is necessarily homophobic, etc.

Some among those opposed to gay marriage take a 'separate but equal' approach to the 'government-codified coupling of sexual partners' issue.

Here are, roughly, two ways this concept of 'separate but equal' could be understood:

A) "Separate but equal" segregation of black Americans in the early half of last century - real baaad and false in practice.
B) The "separate but equal" male & female restrooms in many businesses and establishments throughout this country - different physical makeups require different facilities, + privacy - deemed acceptable.

If marriage is understood to be legally protected for a purpose related protecting the stability/protection of children (the next generation of citizens) produced by sexual coupling, then it is not extremely difficult how an argument could be made for B) as homosexual coupling cannot physically produce children (adoption complicates this of course etc.). It could be argued that it is wasteful to apply monetary government benefits (which cost taxpayers somewhere down the line) to support these relationships.

Now an easy common sense argument is that the small cost to taxpayers would be meaningless compared to the impact of unequivocating, "identically equal" treatment of homosexual couples by the government. So the other position may seem heartless (or truly motivated by other reasons that the 'philosophical ones presented') but need not necessarily come from a homophobic/gay-hating position.

This may well be philosophical minutiae but, whatever.


Marriage isn't understood that way by the government though. Even Heterosexual couples could be incapable of producing children because they are infertile, yet they can adopt children and they get the benefits government provides for having children via taxes and the like. People join themselves together in life and the government is trying to facilitate and accomodate for the natural grouping that people do, rather than government protecting marriage for a purpose. The effects of the grouping that are beneficial to society the government helps facilitate like education, but it starts with the people joining their lives together, the people are the ones who define their joining, and not the governments or religions job to define what that joining is and isn't but to accomodate for it in society.


Personally, I don't understand the problem with Marriage vs Civil Union. As long as one contains all the rights of the other, who cares what we call it. It should be the rights that are the contentious point here? I wish we could just settle and say "Man and woman: Marriage. Gay or Lesbain: Union" And give each the same rights as the other. Seems like the best outcome for everyone. But some ultra religious say that it's a slippery slope, and some gay/lesbian say it isn't good enough.


By calling them different names the government is saying they are inherently different, which opens up the accusation that one is superior to another. We don't have "fat people marriage" "interracial marriage", we just have marriage.
saocyn
Profile Joined July 2011
United States937 Posts
July 26 2012 18:00 GMT
#764
On July 27 2012 02:54 Praetorial wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2012 02:50 saocyn wrote:
On July 27 2012 02:36 Ecrilon wrote:
I've always assumed
Discrimination->Bad
Discriminating against people that discriminate->Fine
Kind of like
killing people->Bad
Killing people that are killing people->Fine


if you want a never ending cycle of hatred and problems that will never be solved, sure.
2 wrongs don't make a right.

as my man MLK once said "Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that"

and your analogy is quite incomparable to the situation at hand, especially killing the people who kill.
in the majority of cases we have absolutely no choice but to take a life due to the threat of that person taking more and has consistently proven to take more and more.

in this case you're trying to eliminate people of making a basic living based on an "assumption" and even more laughable, a rumor. yeah let's throw everyone who has jobs under the bus cause the majority of the chain is christian, NOT ALL, some.
even then the moment you start to discriminate against someone because of their own rights to their own PERSONAL beliefs, only shows how much of a bigot you are.

i will end on the quote
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"


It's not discrimination based on the fact that some people are Christian;

It's discrimination based on the fact that the chain donates money to hateful causes.

Call it what you will, it's justified.


laughable at best, and the typical ban wagon response. "yeah they're hateful bro, you're wrong because i say so"
you clearly have no basis for your argument, not even going to attempt to reply to you after this.
YokaY
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States108 Posts
July 26 2012 18:02 GMT
#765
Role of democracy, I hope, is to represent the interests of the people and prevent the oppression of minority groups. If this is what the city wants, then this is great, if it isn't want the city wants, then he won't get re-elected.
meadbert
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States681 Posts
July 26 2012 18:03 GMT
#766
On July 27 2012 02:54 Praetorial wrote:
It's discrimination based on the fact that the chain donates money to hateful causes.
Call it what you will, it's justified.

Is the killing of hundreds of thousands of unborn children a hateful cause?
Plenty of people would say so, but that does not mean that mayors can kick any company out of town that donates to planned parenthood.

NOTE: Do not derail into pro-life/pro-choice thread. I am actually pro-choice anyway, so you would only be preaching to choir.

My point is that what seems hateful to one person may not seem that way to another.
Also, just because a policy you support hurts someone does not mean you hate.
Cathy may be against Gay marriage without hating gay people just as many people are pro-choice without hating unborn children.
Praetorial
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States4241 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-26 18:06:57
July 26 2012 18:05 GMT
#767
On July 27 2012 03:00 saocyn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2012 02:54 Praetorial wrote:
On July 27 2012 02:50 saocyn wrote:
On July 27 2012 02:36 Ecrilon wrote:
I've always assumed
Discrimination->Bad
Discriminating against people that discriminate->Fine
Kind of like
killing people->Bad
Killing people that are killing people->Fine


if you want a never ending cycle of hatred and problems that will never be solved, sure.
2 wrongs don't make a right.

as my man MLK once said "Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that"

and your analogy is quite incomparable to the situation at hand, especially killing the people who kill.
in the majority of cases we have absolutely no choice but to take a life due to the threat of that person taking more and has consistently proven to take more and more.

in this case you're trying to eliminate people of making a basic living based on an "assumption" and even more laughable, a rumor. yeah let's throw everyone who has jobs under the bus cause the majority of the chain is christian, NOT ALL, some.
even then the moment you start to discriminate against someone because of their own rights to their own PERSONAL beliefs, only shows how much of a bigot you are.

i will end on the quote
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"


It's not discrimination based on the fact that some people are Christian;

It's discrimination based on the fact that the chain donates money to hateful causes.

Call it what you will, it's justified.


laughable at best, and the typical ban wagon response. "yeah they're hateful bro, you're wrong because i say so"
you clearly have no basis for your argument, not even going to attempt to reply to you after this.


And you seem quite uninformed, willfully neutral to the point of being obnoxious.

Now that that's settled:


On July 27 2012 03:02 YokaY wrote:
Role of democracy, I hope, is to represent the interests of the people and prevent the oppression of minority groups. If this is what the city wants, then this is great, if it isn't want the city wants, then he won't get re-elected.


We will vote him in again, as we have for a while now, because he's a nice guy.


On July 27 2012 03:03 meadbert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2012 02:54 Praetorial wrote:
It's discrimination based on the fact that the chain donates money to hateful causes.
Call it what you will, it's justified.

Is the killing of hundreds of thousands of unborn children a hateful cause?
Plenty of people would say so, but that does not mean that mayors can kick any company out of town that donates to planned parenthood.

NOTE: Do not derail into pro-life/pro-choice thread. I am actually pro-choice anyway, so you would only be preaching to choir.

My point is that what seems hateful to one person may not seem that way to another.
Also, just because a policy you support hurts someone does not mean you hate.
Cathy may be against Gay marriage without hating gay people just as many people are pro-choice without hating unborn children.


That analogy is kinda flawed, since there's no way to hate an unborn child unless you're crazy...

And our mayor has the power, a majority of the city supports him and this cause, so why not?
FOR GREAT JUSTICE! Bans for the ban gods!
S_SienZ
Profile Joined September 2011
1878 Posts
July 26 2012 18:07 GMT
#768
On July 27 2012 03:03 meadbert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2012 02:54 Praetorial wrote:
It's discrimination based on the fact that the chain donates money to hateful causes.
Call it what you will, it's justified.

Is the killing of hundreds of thousands of unborn children a hateful cause?
Plenty of people would say so, but that does not mean that mayors can kick any company out of town that donates to planned parenthood.

NOTE: Do not derail into pro-life/pro-choice thread. I am actually pro-choice anyway, so you would only be preaching to choir.

My point is that what seems hateful to one person may not seem that way to another.
Also, just because a policy you support hurts someone does not mean you hate.

Cathy may be against Gay marriage without hating gay people just as many people are pro-choice without hating unborn children.

Slippery slope my friend.

E.g. I don't hate women, but I don't believe they should be able to work, or vote.

DISCLAIMER: HYPOTHETICAL

If everyone back in the day thought like this, imagine how much progress would have been held back.
CaptainSlow
Profile Joined October 2010
Malaysia164 Posts
July 26 2012 18:08 GMT
#769
IMO I think its pretty badass that this mayor is standing up for what he believes in. If people dont like in maybe they shouldnt vote for him as mayor.
Fyrewolf
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1533 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-26 18:10:34
July 26 2012 18:09 GMT
#770
On July 27 2012 03:03 meadbert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2012 02:54 Praetorial wrote:
It's discrimination based on the fact that the chain donates money to hateful causes.
Call it what you will, it's justified.

Is the killing of hundreds of thousands of unborn children a hateful cause?
Plenty of people would say so, but that does not mean that mayors can kick any company out of town that donates to planned parenthood.

NOTE: Do not derail into pro-life/pro-choice thread. I am actually pro-choice anyway, so you would only be preaching to choir.

My point is that what seems hateful to one person may not seem that way to another.
Also, just because a policy you support hurts someone does not mean you hate.
Cathy may be against Gay marriage without hating gay people just as many people are pro-choice without hating unborn children.


It's one thing to have an opinion, it's quite another to actively try to enforce that opinion on others when it includes denying others their rights. Donating to planned parenthood doesn't deny anybody rights, merely helps some who chose to excersice their right to an abortion(among the many many other services they offer). Donating to groups that fight to keep gays from getting married helps deny rights to people who should have them.
"This is not Warcraft in space" "It's much more...... Sophisticated" "I KNOW IT'S NOT 3D!!!"
saocyn
Profile Joined July 2011
United States937 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-26 18:18:27
July 26 2012 18:10 GMT
#771
On July 27 2012 02:59 Smat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2012 02:35 Felnarion wrote:
On July 27 2012 02:25 Fyrewolf wrote:
On July 27 2012 02:16 Ryalnos wrote:
There seems to be this assumption that opposition to gay marriage is necessarily homophobic, etc.

Some among those opposed to gay marriage take a 'separate but equal' approach to the 'government-codified coupling of sexual partners' issue.

Here are, roughly, two ways this concept of 'separate but equal' could be understood:

A) "Separate but equal" segregation of black Americans in the early half of last century - real baaad and false in practice.
B) The "separate but equal" male & female restrooms in many businesses and establishments throughout this country - different physical makeups require different facilities, + privacy - deemed acceptable.

If marriage is understood to be legally protected for a purpose related protecting the stability/protection of children (the next generation of citizens) produced by sexual coupling, then it is not extremely difficult how an argument could be made for B) as homosexual coupling cannot physically produce children (adoption complicates this of course etc.). It could be argued that it is wasteful to apply monetary government benefits (which cost taxpayers somewhere down the line) to support these relationships.

Now an easy common sense argument is that the small cost to taxpayers would be meaningless compared to the impact of unequivocating, "identically equal" treatment of homosexual couples by the government. So the other position may seem heartless (or truly motivated by other reasons that the 'philosophical ones presented') but need not necessarily come from a homophobic/gay-hating position.

This may well be philosophical minutiae but, whatever.


Marriage isn't understood that way by the government though. Even Heterosexual couples could be incapable of producing children because they are infertile, yet they can adopt children and they get the benefits government provides for having children via taxes and the like. People join themselves together in life and the government is trying to facilitate and accomodate for the natural grouping that people do, rather than government protecting marriage for a purpose. The effects of the grouping that are beneficial to society the government helps facilitate like education, but it starts with the people joining their lives together, the people are the ones who define their joining, and not the governments or religions job to define what that joining is and isn't but to accomodate for it in society.


Personally, I don't understand the problem with Marriage vs Civil Union. As long as one contains all the rights of the other, who cares what we call it. It should be the rights that are the contentious point here? I wish we could just settle and say "Man and woman: Marriage. Gay or Lesbain: Union" And give each the same rights as the other. Seems like the best outcome for everyone. But some ultra religious say that it's a slippery slope, and some gay/lesbian say it isn't good enough.


By calling them different names the government is saying they are inherently different, which opens up the accusation that one is superior to another. We don't have "fat people marriage" "interracial marriage", we just have marriage.


sound's like the best solution to me if i've ever heard one....both sides are appeased, which is ultimately where we should be at, more then is just pushing it.

just to throw out a hypothetical example, say civil union does pass. and there's re-definement of civil union again in the next 20 years, where people wish to marry their dogs or inanimate objects under the pretext of "love" do you think gays would be tolerant of this? probably not. the association of it, would make one less tolerant. we should keep these differences, for both sides, if they have the same outcome regardless. after that, you're just trying to fix implied stereotypes, which no one can possibly appease.
radscorpion9
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada2252 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-26 18:12:53
July 26 2012 18:10 GMT
#772
On July 27 2012 03:02 YokaY wrote:
Role of democracy, I hope, is to represent the interests of the people and prevent the oppression of minority groups. If this is what the city wants, then this is great, if it isn't want the city wants, then he won't get re-elected.


No one is being oppressed. People are allowed to hold different opinions on gay marriage, and even to fund campaigns trying to end it; oppression would consist of actively discriminating against them. Its part of free speech, which is the fundamental basis of democracy (hopefully?). How can you casually throw that away? What happens when a mayor decides to do something like this for bad reasons? Wait 4-5 or more years to elect someone else? In the mean time, I guess you're screwed right. How about this: Just let people decide whether they support the company or not. What could be more democratic than that? People have a right to shop where they want to, the mayor has no business taking that away. America was based on giving as much freedom to the individual as possible. There is absolutely no reason for the mayor to do this, as the company is not doing anything illegal except expressing an unpopular view.
Dzemoo
Profile Joined January 2012
48 Posts
July 26 2012 18:11 GMT
#773
Sadly I'm the minority here on TL. Am I the only person on here that believes that gay-marriage should be illegal???
meadbert
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States681 Posts
July 26 2012 18:11 GMT
#774
Just because a politician is democratically elected, does not mean it is okay to discriminate against a minority unable to elect leaders that will support them. It is not okay if a majority Christian city decides to persecute Jews and Muslims and it is not okay if a majority Secular city decides to persecute old school Christians.

S_SienZ
Profile Joined September 2011
1878 Posts
July 26 2012 18:12 GMT
#775
On July 27 2012 03:10 radscorpion9 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2012 03:02 YokaY wrote:
Role of democracy, I hope, is to represent the interests of the people and prevent the oppression of minority groups. If this is what the city wants, then this is great, if it isn't want the city wants, then he won't get re-elected.


No one is being oppressed. People are allowed to hold different opinions on gay marriage, and even to fund campaigns trying to end it; oppression would consist of actively discriminating against them. Its part of free speech, which is the fundamental basis of democracy (hopefully?). How can you casually throw that away? What happens when a mayor decides to do this for bad reasons? Wait 4-5 or more years to elect someone else? In the mean time, I guess you're screwed right. How about this: Just let people decide whether they support the company or not. What could be more democratic than that? People have a right to shop where they want to, the mayor has no business taking that away. America was based on giving as much freedom to the individual as possible. There is absolutely no reason for the mayor to do this, as the company is not doing anything illegal except expressing an unpopular view.

If you think the bar that entitles you to a permit is "being legal" I'm afraid you live in a fantasy world my friend.
meadbert
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States681 Posts
July 26 2012 18:13 GMT
#776
On July 27 2012 03:09 Fyrewolf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2012 03:03 meadbert wrote:
On July 27 2012 02:54 Praetorial wrote:
It's discrimination based on the fact that the chain donates money to hateful causes.
Call it what you will, it's justified.

Is the killing of hundreds of thousands of unborn children a hateful cause?
Plenty of people would say so, but that does not mean that mayors can kick any company out of town that donates to planned parenthood.

NOTE: Do not derail into pro-life/pro-choice thread. I am actually pro-choice anyway, so you would only be preaching to choir.

My point is that what seems hateful to one person may not seem that way to another.
Also, just because a policy you support hurts someone does not mean you hate.
Cathy may be against Gay marriage without hating gay people just as many people are pro-choice without hating unborn children.


It's one thing to have an opinion, it's quite another to actively try to enforce that opinion on others when it includes denying others their rights. Donating to planned parenthood doesn't deny anybody rights, merely helps some who chose to excersice their right to an abortion(among the many many other services they offer). Donating to groups that fight to keep gays from getting married helps deny rights to people who should have them.

Donating to planned parenthood (which I have done in the past) helps to deny the right of unborn children to live.
I hope I am never persecuted or kicked out of a city because I made that donation.
S_SienZ
Profile Joined September 2011
1878 Posts
July 26 2012 18:14 GMT
#777
On July 27 2012 03:13 meadbert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2012 03:09 Fyrewolf wrote:
On July 27 2012 03:03 meadbert wrote:
On July 27 2012 02:54 Praetorial wrote:
It's discrimination based on the fact that the chain donates money to hateful causes.
Call it what you will, it's justified.

Is the killing of hundreds of thousands of unborn children a hateful cause?
Plenty of people would say so, but that does not mean that mayors can kick any company out of town that donates to planned parenthood.

NOTE: Do not derail into pro-life/pro-choice thread. I am actually pro-choice anyway, so you would only be preaching to choir.

My point is that what seems hateful to one person may not seem that way to another.
Also, just because a policy you support hurts someone does not mean you hate.
Cathy may be against Gay marriage without hating gay people just as many people are pro-choice without hating unborn children.


It's one thing to have an opinion, it's quite another to actively try to enforce that opinion on others when it includes denying others their rights. Donating to planned parenthood doesn't deny anybody rights, merely helps some who chose to excersice their right to an abortion(among the many many other services they offer). Donating to groups that fight to keep gays from getting married helps deny rights to people who should have them.

Donating to planned parenthood (which I have done in the past) helps to deny the right of unborn children to live.
I hope I am never persecuted or kicked out of a city because I made that donation.

You can't have rights when you're not born yet.
meadbert
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States681 Posts
July 26 2012 18:16 GMT
#778
On July 27 2012 03:14 S_SienZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2012 03:13 meadbert wrote:
On July 27 2012 03:09 Fyrewolf wrote:
On July 27 2012 03:03 meadbert wrote:
On July 27 2012 02:54 Praetorial wrote:
It's discrimination based on the fact that the chain donates money to hateful causes.
Call it what you will, it's justified.

Is the killing of hundreds of thousands of unborn children a hateful cause?
Plenty of people would say so, but that does not mean that mayors can kick any company out of town that donates to planned parenthood.

NOTE: Do not derail into pro-life/pro-choice thread. I am actually pro-choice anyway, so you would only be preaching to choir.

My point is that what seems hateful to one person may not seem that way to another.
Also, just because a policy you support hurts someone does not mean you hate.
Cathy may be against Gay marriage without hating gay people just as many people are pro-choice without hating unborn children.


It's one thing to have an opinion, it's quite another to actively try to enforce that opinion on others when it includes denying others their rights. Donating to planned parenthood doesn't deny anybody rights, merely helps some who chose to excersice their right to an abortion(among the many many other services they offer). Donating to groups that fight to keep gays from getting married helps deny rights to people who should have them.

Donating to planned parenthood (which I have done in the past) helps to deny the right of unborn children to live.
I hope I am never persecuted or kicked out of a city because I made that donation.

You can't have rights when you're not born yet.

And gays do not have the "right to marry" in my state. Many of us (including me, but sadly not including our president) tried hard to prevent a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage from passing, but unfortunately it passed.
Thus I live in a state where gay marriage is banned because a majority voted for it to be that way. I would hate to have a mayor kick me out of town because I publicly supported gay marriage. We should be able to engage in unpopular political activity without fear of reprisals from our elected leaders.
radscorpion9
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada2252 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-26 18:20:57
July 26 2012 18:16 GMT
#779
On July 27 2012 03:12 S_SienZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2012 03:10 radscorpion9 wrote:
On July 27 2012 03:02 YokaY wrote:
Role of democracy, I hope, is to represent the interests of the people and prevent the oppression of minority groups. If this is what the city wants, then this is great, if it isn't want the city wants, then he won't get re-elected.


No one is being oppressed. People are allowed to hold different opinions on gay marriage, and even to fund campaigns trying to end it; oppression would consist of actively discriminating against them. Its part of free speech, which is the fundamental basis of democracy (hopefully?). How can you casually throw that away? What happens when a mayor decides to do this for bad reasons? Wait 4-5 or more years to elect someone else? In the mean time, I guess you're screwed right. How about this: Just let people decide whether they support the company or not. What could be more democratic than that? People have a right to shop where they want to, the mayor has no business taking that away. America was based on giving as much freedom to the individual as possible. There is absolutely no reason for the mayor to do this, as the company is not doing anything illegal except expressing an unpopular view.

If you think the bar that entitles you to a permit is "being legal" I'm afraid you live in a fantasy world my friend.


Maybe so, but I still would fight for that world to be a reality. I know earlier in the thread a lot of people have pointed out that similar things have happened before and that this isn't really setting a precedent. But still...I would have to argue that the mayor or any other level of government has no business denying a company simply based on their beliefs, which may be offensive to some. That role should be explicitly reserved for the public. Its a slippery slope; and I know that generally isn't a good argument but in this case freedom of speech is the cornerstone of a democracy and bears defending. Who is going to decide what hate speech is, what discriminatory language is? The majority? History is filled with examples of societies that thought they knew it all, and silenced people who they thought had horrible ideas that would destroy society; but now we come to revere many of them (aka Socrates). So called "free speech" that bars extreme opinions isn't any kind of free speech at all, true free speech is what marks a civilized society
Chocolate
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2350 Posts
July 26 2012 18:20 GMT
#780
On July 27 2012 03:11 Dzemoo wrote:
Sadly I'm the minority here on TL. Am I the only person on here that believes that gay-marriage should be illegal???

There are a few others. To be honest I've never learned of a compelling argument for that opinion, though. TL tends to be pretty liberal.

On July 27 2012 03:11 meadbert wrote:
Just because a politician is democratically elected, does not mean it is okay to discriminate against a minority unable to elect leaders that will support them. It is not okay if a majority Christian city decides to persecute Jews and Muslims and it is not okay if a majority Secular city decides to persecute old school Christians.

I completely agree. Although I like that the mayor is standing up for what I believe in, I think he is overstepping his boundaries. I would hate it if my state, Kentucky, banned Google for supporting lgbt rights. I don't want the Mayor of Louisville to ban the Catholic Church for that reason, either. If you don't want that power to be abused, you shouldn't give it to people in the first place. Although gay marriage is obviously discriminatory and will be probably be allowed soon, it is still a problem with lots of people on both sides. I don't think we can (at this point) declare anti-gay marriage people discriminatory.
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