Online electronics retailer Kogan.com has waged a war on “stuck-in-time” customers by implementing the world's first Internet Explorer 7 "tax" today.
The website will begin charging customers who use the “antique” browser more for their online technology purchases.
According to reports, the new 6.8% charge comes into effect from June 14 on all products purchased from Kogan for any Australian shoppers still using IE7.
CEO and founder Ruslan Kogan says the company had been spending “too much time and money making the site compatible with IE7” and that technology companies such as itself should not have to unnecessarily spend money sustaining out-dated technology such as IE7.
"Internet Explorer 7 has long since passed its use-by date," Mr Kogan has been quoted as saying. "It’s a constant source of frustration for our web guys and we’re sick of burning cash on a browser that hit the market nearly six years ago. It goes against everything Kogan stands for."
"Based on what Kogan stands for with efficiency it just didn't seem right, we should not be punishing our savvy customers who are using a proper browser,” he says.
But Kogan says can avoid paying extra by switching browsers to Firefox, Chrome, Safari, Opera or a more recent version of Internet Explorer.
The website now has a browser that asks customers to upgrade to the latest browser.
"As internet citizens, we all have a responsibility to make the internet a better place. By taking these measures, we are doing our bit," he told Smart Company.
Seems like a drastic move. It sounds like Web Developers are getting sick of making things compatible for IE7 and other web browsers. Is it just a simple cash grab by the company? Perhaps they have cut a deal with other Web Browser Developers.
LoL. This is actually hilarious. They should fine anyone who used any version of IE. Haha...that is just the IT tech in my bitching.
Overall, it seems like overkill and a bit ridiculous. It could become problematic too because websites could start "supporting" certain browsers this way, like a 10% discount for Firefox users or whatever. It seems like something that could snowball and lead to Google destroying the competition, but we will have to see.
good move imo. if they actually have to spend extra money to make their site compatible with IE7, then I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to recoup that cost from the customers who use it.
On June 15 2012 00:33 tofucake wrote: As a web developer, I feel like I must pressure Kogan about this tax. It's completely unreasonable. It should be no less than 15%.
No but seriously IE sucks. Hurray for Kogan!
Even Google is dropping support for IE7, and everywhere else should follow. It is an incredibly annoying browser to develop for -- 15% sounds about right
Or you could just make the ebsite uncombatible with IE7 and be done with it. Im sure the 7 people still using IE7 Can go somewhere else and shop and not be missed.
On June 15 2012 00:33 TheAmazombie wrote: LoL. This is actually hilarious. They should fine anyone who used any version of IE. Haha...that is just the IT tech in my bitching.
Overall, it seems like overkill and a bit ridiculous. It could become problematic too because websites could start "supporting" certain browsers this way, like a 10% discount for Firefox users or whatever. It seems like something that could snowball and lead to Google destroying the competition, but we will have to see.
I don't really see that happening, if it was really a good idea I think we would already have it by now.
I understand Kogan's decision to refuse supporting outdated software though, seems perfectly reasonable.
Although the price might be a bit drastic, I do support it, because perhaps it will make Microsoft get their asses in line and produce a web browser that you can use by default that can run with all websites.
I've noticed lately that Microsoft have had loads of ad campaigns showing off the new IE, perhaps they are worried.
On June 15 2012 00:37 Orcasgt24 wrote: Or you could just make the ebsite uncombatible with IE7 and be done with it. Im sure the 7 people still using IE7 Can go somewhere else and shop and not be missed.
I don't think that's very fair for people who aren't very computer savvy. I know personally that some of my cousins and auntys simply don't use a computer as much as I do and automatically assume IE is the only browser available.
On June 15 2012 00:37 Orcasgt24 wrote: Or you could just make the ebsite uncombatible with IE7 and be done with it. Im sure the 7 people still using IE7 Can go somewhere else and shop and not be missed.
I don't think that's very fair for people who aren't very computer savvy. I know personally that some of my cousins and auntys simply don't use a computer as much as I do and automatically assume IE is the only browser available.
So then just update it?
If you don't know how to update/install a web browser you really shouldn't be making electronic purchases.
I say that with all seriousness too. Those are the type of people who refresh a page during billing, charging them self twice, fall for phishing scams, and end up just not maintaining their computer properly among other things.
Why is it that IE isn't compatible? Is it to hard for Microsoft to incorporate? Or did Microsoft just expect everyone to change their browsers based on what Microsoft did?
On June 15 2012 00:37 Orcasgt24 wrote: Or you could just make the ebsite uncombatible with IE7 and be done with it. Im sure the 7 people still using IE7 Can go somewhere else and shop and not be missed.
I don't think that's very fair for people who aren't very computer savvy. I know personally that some of my cousins and auntys simply don't use a computer as much as I do and automatically assume IE is the only browser available.
Well they should get computer savvy. And eventually pretty much everyone will be.
On June 15 2012 00:37 Orcasgt24 wrote: Or you could just make the ebsite uncombatible with IE7 and be done with it. Im sure the 7 people still using IE7 Can go somewhere else and shop and not be missed.
I don't think that's very fair for people who aren't very computer savvy. I know personally that some of my cousins and auntys simply don't use a computer as much as I do and automatically assume IE is the only browser available.
The thing is that you don't have to be...Windows will auto-update it for you.
On June 15 2012 00:36 bonifaceviii wrote: The PR behind this is wrong. They should present it as a discount to customers who have an up-to-date browser.
That's clever!
I do wonder if this is going to get out of line, however. It sets a precedent that allows a website to discount people using certain browsers... does that mean we're going to start having companies like google and mozilla get into bidding wars for exclusive discounts in online stores when you use chrome/firefox? I don't think that's a good idea. It could get out of hand really quick.
Hahaha this is so funny, though somewhat understandable.
On June 15 2012 00:36 bonifaceviii wrote: The PR behind this is wrong. They should present it as a discount to customers who have an up-to-date browser.
On June 15 2012 00:37 Orcasgt24 wrote: Or you could just make the ebsite uncombatible with IE7 and be done with it. Im sure the 7 people still using IE7 Can go somewhere else and shop and not be missed.
I don't think that's very fair for people who aren't very computer savvy. I know personally that some of my cousins and auntys simply don't use a computer as much as I do and automatically assume IE is the only browser available.
So then just update it?
If you don't know how to update/install a web browser you really shouldn't be making electronic purchases.
I say that with all seriousness too. Those are the type of people who refresh a page during billing, charging them self twice, fall for phishing scams, and end up just not maintaining their computer properly among other things.
To bad the world doesn't work like that buddy. Some people simply don't like using computers and only use them for purchasing online and checking their facebook statuses.
Sure, they should be learning how to use their computers, the same way drug addicts should straighten up and get a job, not gonna happen xD.
On June 15 2012 00:36 bonifaceviii wrote: The PR behind this is wrong. They should present it as a discount to customers who have an up-to-date browser.
That's clever!
I do wonder if this is going to get out of line, however. It sets a precedent that allows a website to discount people using certain browsers... does that mean we're going to start having companies like google and mozilla get into bidding wars for exclusive discounts in online stores when you use chrome/firefox? I don't think that's a good idea. It could get out of hand really quick.
Given that these browsers are free and you can have several installed at once, this would easily be avoided by just using the discount browser when you wanted to buy something and otherwise never using it.
On June 15 2012 00:36 bonifaceviii wrote: The PR behind this is wrong. They should present it as a discount to customers who have an up-to-date browser.
10 points for you hahaha
Gasoline is "discounted" like that in the US for using cash, in my area up to 10c per gallon. Jerks.
On June 15 2012 00:44 blug wrote: Why is it that IE isn't compatible? Is it to hard for Microsoft to incorporate? Or did Microsoft just expect everyone to change their browsers based on what Microsoft did?
MS made stuff work differently because they give no fucks. Stuff that works in 12 other browsers won't work in IE without special code because "fuck you we're Microsoft that's why."
On June 15 2012 00:36 bonifaceviii wrote: The PR behind this is wrong. They should present it as a discount to customers who have an up-to-date browser.
That's clever!
I do wonder if this is going to get out of line, however. It sets a precedent that allows a website to discount people using certain browsers... does that mean we're going to start having companies like google and mozilla get into bidding wars for exclusive discounts in online stores when you use chrome/firefox? I don't think that's a good idea. It could get out of hand really quick.
I dont think it would really be that big a deal for customers because we arnt restricted to using any one browser. I know I personally have two or three installed. On topic though I think its pretty amusing and reasonable. If it can get people to realise they should be upgrading their browsers then its actually pretty helpful too.
On June 15 2012 00:36 bonifaceviii wrote: The PR behind this is wrong. They should present it as a discount to customers who have an up-to-date browser.
That's clever!
I do wonder if this is going to get out of line, however. It sets a precedent that allows a website to discount people using certain browsers... does that mean we're going to start having companies like google and mozilla get into bidding wars for exclusive discounts in online stores when you use chrome/firefox? I don't think that's a good idea. It could get out of hand really quick.
Given that these browsers are free and you can have several installed at once, this would easily be avoided by just using the discount browser when you wanted to buy something and otherwise never using it.
Presumably that's why it hasn't happened yet.
True, true. That's pretty obvious, actually. I kinda feel retarded for not thinking of that, myself.
This is going to backfire. This will only create backlash from the vast majority of people who don't understand the difference between IE and Firefox, let alone IE7 and IE8. If they wanted to do this they should have just quietly stopped supporting IE7 imo.
On June 15 2012 00:36 bonifaceviii wrote: The PR behind this is wrong. They should present it as a discount to customers who have an up-to-date browser.
That's clever!
I do wonder if this is going to get out of line, however. It sets a precedent that allows a website to discount people using certain browsers... does that mean we're going to start having companies like google and mozilla get into bidding wars for exclusive discounts in online stores when you use chrome/firefox? I don't think that's a good idea. It could get out of hand really quick.
Given that these browsers are free and you can have several installed at once, this would easily be avoided by just using the discount browser when you wanted to buy something and otherwise never using it.
Presumably that's why it hasn't happened yet.
Or browsers would add support for easily modifying the user-agent string.
On June 15 2012 00:37 Orcasgt24 wrote: Or you could just make the ebsite uncombatible with IE7 and be done with it. Im sure the 7 people still using IE7 Can go somewhere else and shop and not be missed.
I don't think that's very fair for people who aren't very computer savvy. I know personally that some of my cousins and auntys simply don't use a computer as much as I do and automatically assume IE is the only browser available.
So then just update it?
If you don't know how to update/install a web browser you really shouldn't be making electronic purchases.
I say that with all seriousness too. Those are the type of people who refresh a page during billing, charging them self twice, fall for phishing scams, and end up just not maintaining their computer properly among other things.
To bad the world doesn't work like that buddy. Some people simply don't like using computers and only use them for purchasing online and checking their facebook statuses.
Sure, they should be learning how to use their computers, the same way drug addicts should straighten up and get a job, not gonna happen xD.
How does that reinforce your first post? In your first post you said it's not fair to them and now you just agreed with me. Saying that's not how the world works isn't a very valid argument. There's nothing stopping them from learning to take care of their property. I would only assume the typical person gets their car taken in for maintenance occasionally. So yeah... seems pretty fair to me.
I lold. People should be encouraged to use browsers that arnt terrible. Seems like a tax on people who are not computer savvy though. (not that its hard to install firefox)
On June 15 2012 00:36 bonifaceviii wrote: The PR behind this is wrong. They should present it as a discount to customers who have an up-to-date browser.
That wouldn't have made the news, and equated to a free commercial for them, though.
On June 15 2012 00:37 Orcasgt24 wrote: Or you could just make the ebsite uncombatible with IE7 and be done with it. Im sure the 7 people still using IE7 Can go somewhere else and shop and not be missed.
I don't think that's very fair for people who aren't very computer savvy. I know personally that some of my cousins and auntys simply don't use a computer as much as I do and automatically assume IE is the only browser available.
So then just update it?
If you don't know how to update/install a web browser you really shouldn't be making electronic purchases.
I say that with all seriousness too. Those are the type of people who refresh a page during billing, charging them self twice, fall for phishing scams, and end up just not maintaining their computer properly among other things.
To bad the world doesn't work like that buddy. Some people simply don't like using computers and only use them for purchasing online and checking their facebook statuses.
Sure, they should be learning how to use their computers, the same way drug addicts should straighten up and get a job, not gonna happen xD.
How does that reinforce your first post? In your first post you said it's not fair to them and now you just agreed with me. Saying that's not how the world works isn't a very valid argument. There's nothing stopping them from learning to take care of their property. I would only assume the typical person gets their car taken in for maintenance occasionally. So yeah... seems pretty fair to me.
Perhaps fair wasn't the right word. Perhaps I should of said "bad business practice". It's nothing to do with protecting their property either, it's to do with what browser they are using, and some people don't know about other Browsers. Just because you don't know their are other browsers on the net doesn't mean you aren't careful about online purchases.
On June 15 2012 00:56 Myles wrote: This is going to backfire. This will only create backlash from the vast majority of people who don't understand the difference between IE and Firefox, let alone IE7 and IE8. If they wanted to do this they should have just quietly stopped supporting IE7 imo.
Doubt it would create backlash from people who don't understand the difference between IE and firefox, they problaby wouldn't even notice they're paying more.
Bad business practice is driving away customers or acquiescence to grievous demands in order to satisfy them. This, blug, falls under the second. You can't make a moral argument or even a human rights argument about a private business choosing to levy additional charges on more costly customers.
On June 15 2012 00:56 Myles wrote: This is going to backfire. This will only create backlash from the vast majority of people who don't understand the difference between IE and Firefox, let alone IE7 and IE8. If they wanted to do this they should have just quietly stopped supporting IE7 imo.
Doubt it would create backlash from people who don't understand the difference between IE and firefox, they problaby wouldn't even notice they're paying more.
Pretty good point imo. Where is this printed? On tech oriented websites (Teamliquid is a website focused on computer games; fits the definition. So is Yahoo Finance. If you're managing stocks online then you're probably savvy enough to..). Myles suggests it will create a backlash from non-tech oriented customers. Well.. if they don't read it.. they won't pitchfork..
I think the issue is more of using IE7 than IE itself. IE9 supports most of the features other browsers support(if not all - I'm not too into this thing so I'm not sure); Wasting time and money in making the site "IE7-friendly" is terrible for them.
Charging extra for using IE7 is clever. People who know shit about computers pay more(hint hint this is an electronics website, you should know things about computers if you use it) and those who simply use good browsers are unaffected.
Maybe it's a way to make people understand that you shouldn't be happy with buggy websites - you should update your damn browser. Having a buggy, non supported website would be bad in the long run for the internet users. It's a good move imo.
On June 15 2012 01:11 Probe1 wrote: Bad business practice is driving away customers or acquiescence to grievous demands in order to satisfy them. This, blug, falls under the second. You can't make a moral argument or even a human rights argument about a private business choosing to levy additional charges on more costly customers.
On June 15 2012 00:56 Myles wrote: This is going to backfire. This will only create backlash from the vast majority of people who don't understand the difference between IE and Firefox, let alone IE7 and IE8. If they wanted to do this they should have just quietly stopped supporting IE7 imo.
Doubt it would create backlash from people who don't understand the difference between IE and firefox, they problaby wouldn't even notice they're paying more.
Pretty good point imo. Where is this printed? On tech oriented websites (Teamliquid is a website focused on computer games; fits the definition. So is Yahoo Finance. If you're managing stocks online then you're probably savvy enough to..). Myles suggests it will create a backlash from non-tech oriented customers. Well.. if they don't read it.. they won't pitchfork..
They have an announcement on the front page of thier site. LOL
On June 15 2012 00:37 Orcasgt24 wrote: Or you could just make the ebsite uncombatible with IE7 and be done with it. Im sure the 7 people still using IE7 Can go somewhere else and shop and not be missed.
I don't think that's very fair for people who aren't very computer savvy. I know personally that some of my cousins and auntys simply don't use a computer as much as I do and automatically assume IE is the only browser available.
So then just update it?
If you don't know how to update/install a web browser you really shouldn't be making electronic purchases.
I say that with all seriousness too. Those are the type of people who refresh a page during billing, charging them self twice, fall for phishing scams, and end up just not maintaining their computer properly among other things.
To bad the world doesn't work like that buddy. Some people simply don't like using computers and only use them for purchasing online and checking their facebook statuses.
Sure, they should be learning how to use their computers, the same way drug addicts should straighten up and get a job, not gonna happen xD.
How does that reinforce your first post? In your first post you said it's not fair to them and now you just agreed with me. Saying that's not how the world works isn't a very valid argument. There's nothing stopping them from learning to take care of their property. I would only assume the typical person gets their car taken in for maintenance occasionally. So yeah... seems pretty fair to me.
Perhaps fair wasn't the right word. Perhaps I should of said "bad business practice". It's nothing to do with protecting their property either, it's to do with what browser they are using, and some people don't know about other Browsers. Just because you don't know their are other browsers on the net doesn't mean you aren't careful about online purchases.
It's not about having to use a different browser though, they just have to update their IE to a more recent version. Old software has bugs that can be exposed as security threats. It doesn't matter how careful you are when you're using vulnerable software. And because of that, yes, you are taking care of your property by keeping it maintained. Of course that's not what Kogan cares about directly; it's that it puts burden on their web development staff, but it puts burden on them because these customers don't maintain their PCs properly.
I'm not saying it isn't bad business practice, but they are justified in this situation.
I am surprised at the people here complaining about IE. I have worked with a few web designers in the past. They thought that IE6 was the devil incarnate and I heard plenty of bad things about IE7, but they all agreed that IE8 was a huge improvement.
I am as 'computer savvy' as most, and I still use IE sometimes. I probably use IE more than I use FF, although 90% of my browsing (on a windows machine) is done with chrome.
Also, IE8 is still the easiest to maintain on corporate networks, which is where I expect most people do their browsing.
Anyway, I just wanted to defend IE a bit as I think the sins of it's past are giving it a bad name that it does not deserve.
On June 15 2012 00:33 tofucake wrote: As a web developer, I feel like I must pressure Kogan about this tax. It's completely unreasonable. It should be no less than 15%.
No but seriously IE sucks. Hurray for Kogan!
Hahahahaha well played.
It's their own decision. I'm interested to see if they'll lose more customers (and thus, money) than they currently lose (+time/ effort) with their compatibility frustrations. I wonder if it's in their best interest. It's cool that a company is actually telling people to *get with the times*,
It's not exactly hard to simply get the newest version of IE for those who really want to stick to Internet Explorer anyway...
interesting. i feel like it would be a drain on company resources for the few people that still use it to be catered to..and instead of closing the site off to people running IE7 they're choosing to have those people (knowingly) get taxed.
honestly, i sense a law suit incoming. practically, its kinda smart especially because its so easy to link the customer to the latest browsing software FROM the company's site.
On June 15 2012 01:31 Disregard wrote: I've been told by web developers, if it works on IE... It should work on any browser.
--- Until you open it in Safari ^^
Joke aside, it looks more of a PR stunt than a real measure. FIrst there aren't that many people using IE 7.0, let alone shopping on the web. (on my analytics stats: there are 4% of my visitors who used IE7, for a website aiming to people around 35-45 years old).
Secondly, navigator's compatibility is a real pain for web developpers. You can litterally spend more time tweaking your software to make it work on different navigators than developping the functionnaliy itself, and it doesn't only concern IE7 omcpatibility.
Supporting IE7 is a ton of extra work on the developer's side.
Unless you're on a company machine, and they don't allow you to update, there's no reason anyone should be using IE7 anyways.
IE8,9 are fine, and aren't affected by this tax.
I think it's a great idea. Personally, I don't bother to develop for <IE8. It's not worth my time. If a client specifically wants it, and heavy use of modern CSS/JavaScript is needed, it will cost them up to double the development and testing time.
On June 15 2012 00:39 blug wrote: Although the price might be a bit drastic, I do support it, because perhaps it will make Microsoft get their asses in line and produce a web browser that you can use by default that can run with all websites.
I've noticed lately that Microsoft have had loads of ad campaigns showing off the new IE, perhaps they are worried.
MS is doing what they've always done when their product in inferior and falling behind: market the shit out of it.
Unfortunatly, I have to use IE8 while at work, and it really is a shitty browser. Internet is a bit slow here, and IE has a number of stupid bugs where it will freeze up if it hasn't loaded the entire page or if there's some item on the page timing out. It's frusterating as hell.
On June 15 2012 00:37 Orcasgt24 wrote: Or you could just make the ebsite uncombatible with IE7 and be done with it. Im sure the 7 people still using IE7 Can go somewhere else and shop and not be missed.
I don't think that's very fair for people who aren't very computer savvy. I know personally that some of my cousins and auntys simply don't use a computer as much as I do and automatically assume IE is the only browser available.
So then just update it?
If you don't know how to update/install a web browser you really shouldn't be making electronic purchases.
I say that with all seriousness too. Those are the type of people who refresh a page during billing, charging them self twice, fall for phishing scams, and end up just not maintaining their computer properly among other things.
As a web developer i can tell you that any properly developed website should NEVER charge you twice even if you reload the page a hundred times at the billing phase.
On June 15 2012 01:31 Disregard wrote: I've been told by web developers, if it works on IE... It should work on any browser.
This is wrong. If it works on IE...then it works on IE.
Firstly, it's completely logical, it is saving the company money, it is increasing efficiency on both ends, it doesn't discriminate (in fact it encourages you to not pay the tax).
In a progressive industry like technology, only people with little understanding in the field would be taking a conservative approach on this.
In the end, company made a sound reasonable progressive business decision.
Oh btw, while everyones shitting on IE, try IE9 it's actually looking quite good. I don't know if I'll ever stop using chrome, but if it is as good as I think it will be (or hope I guess) than I may.
On June 15 2012 02:10 scDeluX wrote: Can't say I'm against raising the awareness of people using old technologies.
especially when you can update it free of charge... I can see the outrage if it was like "no more Windows XP users, they get taxed" but saying "you actually have to go download another browser, takes 5 minutes and it makes your life better" is completely logical.
2.1% of internet users still use IE7. I can understand how a company might not consider 2.1% being worth the effort with how much time and money they say they're spending on supporting them. But I guess a 'tax' is better than just dumping them and telling them to go away.
On June 15 2012 01:31 Disregard wrote: I've been told by web developers, if it works on IE... It should work on any browser.
It doesn't count if you ask web developers working at Microsoft, just saying.
While as a web developer I detest IE to the core and have to clean up my vomit every time I see that IE9 commercial, I don't think this policy is great. They should just ask for a stupid tax instead. Because people that are forced to use IE 7 won't be punished, but those that stay with IE 7 for ignorance should just be charged more, it's likely that they won't notice the extra 0 behind the price anyway.
On June 15 2012 00:39 blug wrote: Although the price might be a bit drastic, I do support it, because perhaps it will make Microsoft get their asses in line and produce a web browser that you can use by default that can run with all websites.
I've noticed lately that Microsoft have had loads of ad campaigns showing off the new IE, perhaps they are worried.
the new IE is supposedly pretty amazing, or so I've heard from other people.
On June 15 2012 00:39 blug wrote: Although the price might be a bit drastic, I do support it, because perhaps it will make Microsoft get their asses in line and produce a web browser that you can use by default that can run with all websites.
I've noticed lately that Microsoft have had loads of ad campaigns showing off the new IE, perhaps they are worried.
the new IE is supposedly pretty amazing, or so I've heard from other people.
On June 15 2012 00:36 bonifaceviii wrote: The PR behind this is wrong. They should present it as a discount to customers who have an up-to-date browser.
then they would have to make the normal price higher. why would they just give a discount to everyone?
On June 15 2012 00:39 blug wrote: Although the price might be a bit drastic, I do support it, because perhaps it will make Microsoft get their asses in line and produce a web browser that you can use by default that can run with all websites.
I've noticed lately that Microsoft have had loads of ad campaigns showing off the new IE, perhaps they are worried.
the new IE is supposedly pretty amazing, or so I've heard from other people.
So amazing that while every browser is perfectly capable of embedding webfonts, IE often requires @font-face declarations because it doesn't want to play ball. IE9 was a big step forward, but they still aren't there.
As a programmer/web developer who still has customers using IE6 and having to make websites/webapplications compatible with IE6 I heavily endorse this. People needs to seriously stop using 10+ year old software (IE6) or even IE7. Microsoft could easily remedy this by doing a tiny update so that all IE6 and IE7 browsers show a small notification of how outdated a browser people are using. This would fix the situation for a lot of non-tech savvy users.
Also, Firefox, Chrome, Safari are all free. If people still refuse to update their software to meet 2012 standards then I say the website/owners/programmers are free to do to IE6/7 users whatever they want.
I really really wish I could make my companies' customers update their damn browsers. We still get the occasional IE6 or IE7 bugs or whatever cropping up and having to spend time and money into fixing them. Some features are simply not available in IE6 but try convincing certain customers of that.
Sometimes I wonder how many signs people are ignoring whilst using IE6 and 7. Hundreds of websites and functions simply don't work in IE6/7 and still they stick with it... Time is obviously not going to fix this and neither is Microsoft so if the website owners want to step in, I will gladly let them.
P.S. The Battlefield 3 web interface (Battlelog) which is made by EA had discontinued IE 8 (yes eight) support because it wasn't compatible anymore with some features that Battlelog has...
As someone who has never actually used IE (I used NetScape Navigator once upon a time), what are the glaring problems with it? Everyone seems to hate it so much, lol. Is it just very slow and clunky?
On June 15 2012 04:36 FallDownMarigold wrote: As someone who has never actually used IE (I used NetScape Navigator once upon a time), what are the glaring problems with it? Everyone seems to hate it so much, lol. Is it just very slow and clunky?
on top of being slow and clunky it is not compatible with a heck of a lot of stuff.
So they are charging CUSTOMERS to buy stuff from their website if they use a bad internet browser? They should be lucky those CUSTOMERS are even buying from them and keeping them in business. I'd like to see everyone using IE7 who shops with them to move their business somewhere else and see how Kogan reacts then. Pretty sure they would be losing money.
If IE7 support costs too much, Kogan should just drop it. A giant image explaining why they don't support IE7 and how to upgrade a browser should suffice.
On June 15 2012 05:09 Zooper31 wrote: So they are charging CUSTOMERS to buy stuff from their website if they use a bad internet browser? They should be lucky those CUSTOMERS are even buying from them and keeping them in business. I'd like to see everyone using IE7 who shops with them to move their business somewhere else and see how Kogan reacts then. Pretty sure they would be losing money.
I think you miss the point, Kogan is currently loosing money on these customers, pretty sure they wouldn't care if they lost them. It's different than a mechanic charging a premium for old car parts that are no longer in production.
Well, for home consumers I suppose it is different as they can always update their browser. But I'm sure some of these are people who are still using old web apps or software that require IE7. For those people it's no different.
I take nothing but amusement from this story. It'a actually quite a smart move, I'm a bit surprised that it hasn't been thought of before but now that it has I expect there might be some other sites following suit.
As a web developer all i can say is that 90% of my ex-colleagues time is simply "making it work in IE7/8" (luckily i work on newer stuff where those browsers aren't promised to be supported now)
good thing IE has the best script debugger (firebug and chrome inspector seriously suck balls compared to the IE script debugger) because it also is the worst browser and breaks with almost anything that is required to be supported by w3c standards.
On June 15 2012 00:37 Orcasgt24 wrote: Or you could just make the ebsite uncombatible with IE7 and be done with it. Im sure the 7 people still using IE7 Can go somewhere else and shop and not be missed.
I don't think that's very fair for people who aren't very computer savvy. I know personally that some of my cousins and auntys simply don't use a computer as much as I do and automatically assume IE is the only browser available.
Well they should get computer savvy. And eventually pretty much everyone will be.
On June 15 2012 03:16 Thezzy wrote: As a programmer/web developer who still has customers using IE6 and having to make websites/webapplications compatible with IE6 I heavily endorse this. People needs to seriously stop using 10+ year old software (IE6) or even IE7. Microsoft could easily remedy this by doing a tiny update so that all IE6 and IE7 browsers show a small notification of how outdated a browser people are using. This would fix the situation for a lot of non-tech savvy users.
In Holland the customerbase still using IE6 is 0.2% according to statcounter. I seriously do not understand why you still need to optimize for it. Is your customerbase 80 year old fishermen or something? If you aren't willing to drop support when there are only 0.2% of them using a browser, when ARE you willing to drop them?
I really think people bitch too much about IE7, its just a simple browser, nothing special. I understand its not as good as firefox, chrome, or safari. I just feel this is kind of drastic and sets a bad precedent that companies should just drop people who don't understand computers as well as the current generation.
On June 15 2012 06:06 docvoc wrote: I really think people bitch too much about IE7, its just a simple browser, nothing special. I understand its not as good as firefox, chrome, or safari. I just feel this is kind of drastic and sets a bad precedent that companies should just drop people who don't understand computers as well as the current generation.
From the perspective of someone who just uses the internet that makes sense, but these complaints are coming from people who make the internet usable for everyone else. It is a ton of extra work to make things work on old browsers, and in fact people using old browsers are holding back the development of the world wide web. If it weren't for so many people using outdated versions of IE we could all be watching videos without any shitty plugins that crash half the time or with a million security errors *cough* flash *cough*. Old browsers slow down the development of standards such as HTML5 and CSS3.
I'm glad someone is stepping up and telling these people to get with the times. And if there's a network admin out there reading this that doesn't have everyone at least using IE 8 or 9 then shame on you.
I think in most cases people do update their browsers at dont. It is network admins that dont update. And in many cases this is because people on those networks are using old software than requires and older browser.
On June 15 2012 06:06 docvoc wrote: I really think people bitch too much about IE7, its just a simple browser, nothing special. I understand its not as good as firefox, chrome, or safari. I just feel this is kind of drastic and sets a bad precedent that companies should just drop people who don't understand computers as well as the current generation.
As already stated above:
Making a website work on firefox, opera, chrome and safari takes very little effort and you can essentially use the exact same code for all of them.
Try to make it work on IE and you can basically just remake the whole thing, because so many basic things just don't fucking work on IE
On June 15 2012 03:16 Thezzy wrote: As a programmer/web developer who still has customers using IE6 and having to make websites/webapplications compatible with IE6 I heavily endorse this. People needs to seriously stop using 10+ year old software (IE6) or even IE7. Microsoft could easily remedy this by doing a tiny update so that all IE6 and IE7 browsers show a small notification of how outdated a browser people are using. This would fix the situation for a lot of non-tech savvy users.
In Holland the customerbase still using IE6 is 0.2% according to statcounter. I seriously do not understand why you still need to optimize for it. Is your customerbase 80 year old fishermen or something? If you aren't willing to drop support when there are only 0.2% of them using a browser, when ARE you willing to drop them?
The main problem is that two of our more larger customers still use it. Internally they still have it running (on XP machines I'd figure) and can't seem to be motivated to update them. They're all mostly office clients/PCs so I guess they just didn't see the need for an upgrade. Even though the upgrade itself is obviously free, from what I've told, actually doing the upgrade would still cost time and money.
And there are a few older customers as well, we had one using an Access 97 database that we needed to import! If it was up to me, I'd drop the IE6 support and be on the fence for IE7 (opting not to support it unless the customer needs it) support, but alas, such is business life.
why wouldnt they just make it not compatible and go to a screen that says "this is not compatible with ie7, please update to the free version of ie8/ie9 (or whatever the newest version of that garbage is)?"
How about use old fashioned tables and forms? Works fine in IE3 even and technically allows one to do all online business. Internet business worked fine in 1998-2000 didnt it?
On June 15 2012 09:51 brolaf wrote: How about use old fashioned tables and forms? Works fine in IE3 even and technically allows one to do all online business. Internet business worked fine in 1998-2000 didnt it?
A site that looks like that would be the equivalent of a back alley abortion clinic.
On June 15 2012 06:06 docvoc wrote: I really think people bitch too much about IE7, its just a simple browser, nothing special. I understand its not as good as firefox, chrome, or safari. I just feel this is kind of drastic and sets a bad precedent that companies should just drop people who don't understand computers as well as the current generation.
^ clearly not a web developer.
It can cost a lot of money to support older browsers such as IE6-8. I have spent a lot of time in the past fixing issues with these browsers (they have a lot of strange quirks and are hard to debug effectively). Still it is nowhere near as bad as coding HTML email templates for MS Outlook.
It might seems a bit harsh however these users have no excuse since they can just install the chrome frame plugin from Google and still keep the same browser and os. In some ways I wish the precedent had been there from the start for websites to have clearer browser requirements. Forcing users to become used to having to update regularly. That was one of the reasons that Flash was such as powerful tool back around 2004-2009. With the rise of HTML5 and the web application you will see more and more sites throw up a message if minimum requirements aren't met by the browser.
This is perfectly fair and reasonable thing to do. Thankfully pretty soon Microsoft are going to be forcibly upgrading IE for users in Windows Update, which will make everything OK, because IE 9 (and 10) are actually excellent browsers (Firefox and Chrome are still faster, however).
IE 6 and lower are HORRIBLE, IE 7 is awful and IE 8 is pretty crap, people shouldn't be punished for choosing the MS browser anymore, but they SHOULD be punished for using an old browser when it is a trivial task to upgrade.
Some relevant information I can provide, as I have purchased from Kogan before and did my research.
Kogan is an Australian online-only retailer, selling self-branded consumer electronics sourced from south-east Asia and 'grey imports', products intended for overseas markets but redirected to Australia to undercut local sellers. I bought a phone from them, for instance, which booted up in German. Thankfully, language selection is the first or second thing you do in initial setup!
Kogan appeals primarily to technologically sophisticated customers who are highly comfortable dealing with an online-only store, are comfortable with the idea that most consumer electronics are made for multiple brands in the same factories, and are comfortable with the restrictions that come with grey importing (no manufacturer warranty).
They also run limited advertising (except for online) as far as I'm aware, focusing on getting exposure through current-affairs media (60 Minutes, Today Tonight) and news articles rather than paid-for ads on TV and in print.
Therefore, I agree with a previous poster that this is primarily a PR stunt. They probably found that 1% or less of their customer base uses IE7 (I wouldn't be surprised if the total share of Kogan's customers using IE at all was below 10%). Therefore, put on a controversial tax (that will affect almost none of their target market customers), get free publicity.
TLDR: I studied marketing this term and am showing off. Kogan is getting cheap publicity by running a stunt that will affect almost none of their customers. Smart marketing.
On June 15 2012 00:33 tofucake wrote: As a web developer, I feel like I must pressure Kogan about this tax. It's completely unreasonable. It should be no less than 15%.
No but seriously IE sucks. Hurray for Kogan!
As a fellow web developer, I have to whole-heartedly agree with you that IE7 and older is an absolute nightmare to develop for. The solution of taxing IE7 users is a bit strange in my opinion, I'd rather just force them to upgrade; if an IE7 client is detected it would prevent access and provide links to download the latest versions of firefox, chrome, opera, safari, and IE.
On June 15 2012 06:06 docvoc wrote: I really think people bitch too much about IE7, its just a simple browser, nothing special. I understand its not as good as firefox, chrome, or safari. I just feel this is kind of drastic and sets a bad precedent that companies should just drop people who don't understand computers as well as the current generation.
You're completely missing the point here: It's costs them a lot of money to develop an IE7 compatible version of their site, taxing users that are causing them this problem is morally acceptable, and i would encourage other companies to contiue this trend.
As far as dropping people who don't undestand computers well: From a business standpoint, customers less comfortable with technology aren't going to be buying things or clicking on ads, or consuming/producing much content in comparison to tech savy users. They're not a very valuable demographic to e-commerce sites, so a small harm to them is entirely worth tightening up your web development process.
On June 15 2012 09:51 brolaf wrote: How about use old fashioned tables and forms? Works fine in IE3 even and technically allows one to do all online business. Internet business worked fine in 1998-2000 didnt it?
*squint* can't tell if troll or not *squint* Because they look like crap, cost a ton to develop, and be extremely difficult to maintain and upgrade. Internet business didn't work fine from 1998-2000, it worked crapily and wasnt' an enjoyable experience at all. There is a huge online sales market today, way larger than it was pre-2000, and that is largely due to the fact that it is now a pleasant experience for users. Shopping carts utilize advanced backend databases, browsing and sorting/filtering items dynamically in real-time is done with modern javascript libraries and advanced CSS (compared to 2000).
On June 15 2012 00:36 bonifaceviii wrote: The PR behind this is wrong. They should present it as a discount to customers who have an up-to-date browser.
On June 15 2012 09:51 brolaf wrote: How about use old fashioned tables and forms? Works fine in IE3 even and technically allows one to do all online business. Internet business worked fine in 1998-2000 didnt it?
*squint* can't tell if troll or not *squint* Because they look like crap, cost a ton to develop, and be extremely difficult to maintain and upgrade. Internet business didn't work fine from 1998-2000, it worked crapily and wasnt' an enjoyable experience at all. There is a huge online sales market today, way larger than it was pre-2000, and that is largely due to the fact that it is now a pleasant experience for users. Shopping carts utilize advanced backend databases, browsing and sorting/filtering items dynamically in real-time is done with modern javascript libraries and advanced CSS (compared to 2000).
You can use all the databases and dynamic code you want, while still being IE3 compatible. Sorting and filtering is done with form style techniques anyway(ebay, most online shops etc), which can be made compatible. and you can use whatever LAMP/microsoft backend or whatever you want, that is no problem at all, you just need it to generate compatible html code.
Dumb idea. Once the site is made to work with IE7, it's made to be compatible, there's no more pricetag for that. If they want to make a difference, they should simply block IE7, saying IE7 is incompatible because it's old and shitty as fuck, that will actually make people change. Making money of people using a crappy browser is not cool.
Just smells like a cheap PR stunt to get their name out on the web. Never came across these guys before so its worked to some extent. Its a shame 30seconds spent on their website made me go back to not giving a shit
Can't you just detect that the browser is outdated and throw up a splash page with simple links to Firefox/Chrome/Safari download, or to wherever it is you update Internet Explorer? Seems much easier, more helpful, and less hassle than continuing to support obsolete browsers but applying a surcharge.
On June 15 2012 20:40 Severedevil wrote: Can't you just detect that the browser is outdated and throw up a splash page with simple links to Firefox/Chrome/Safari download, or to wherever it is you update Internet Explorer? Seems much easier, more helpful, and less hassle than continuing to support obsolete browsers but applying a surcharge.
I'm sure they did research to figure out the best way to do this. The thing about your idea is that by just telling people to get rid of IE they'd lose business from the uninformed like my parents/grandparents (if they were AU). No matter what it is (iTunes, Chrome, FF) they always call me and ask if they're going to get viruses or ask me to fix their PC because that "chrome thingy slowed down my pc too much".
Maybe they will drop support if this doesn't work but it's always better to try to not piss off customers so if this covers the expense of optimizing for IE without losing customers it'll be better (Not to mention the great PR they get in the tech world for it).
Updating from IE7 to IE9 on an enterprise network is extremely simple. One guy could do it in less than 10 minutes. As I said above, the problem is with compatibility with older software. There are many things that were written specifically for IE6 that wont work with newer browsers.
On June 15 2012 00:33 tofucake wrote: As a web developer, I feel like I must pressure Kogan about this tax. It's completely unreasonable. It should be no less than 15%.
No but seriously IE sucks. Hurray for Kogan!
+100, I wish this had happened in the ie6 days! :D :D Looks like they are just getting back what browser compatibility work cost them.
On June 16 2012 08:57 obesechicken13 wrote: I thought IE6 was the one with the problems.
IE6 just has more problems. IE7 is still a massive joke.
Ah. I personally disliked some group policy on my old company's computers. Some of the workstations still ran IE6 T_T. They blocked iframes and I remember having to add <!if IE6--> tags in some places to make things render properly.
On June 15 2012 20:33 Mycl wrote: Just smells like a cheap PR stunt to get their name out on the web. Never came across these guys before so its worked to some extent. Its a shame 30seconds spent on their website made me go back to not giving a shit
I came to know them during the GFC. Remember Rudd's stimulus package? Kogan starting selling $700 or was it $900 TV's
EPT
