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On June 03 2012 02:56 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. this is good point actually, hmm but many of my teachers in the past have implemented policies where they drop your lowest quiz grade or lowest test grade or etc.. something to that nature.
Right, but why not just give the kid a 50% as the lowest grade, or a 40% if they don't even do it. It is still killing the kids grade, but it isn't a decimation just because I'm pissed the kid didn't hand it in. Also, saying that the kid did nothing and thus deserves a 0% is ignoring how our grading scale works.
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On June 03 2012 02:57 nennx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. Kid misses quiz, how can you even know if he knows anything that was supposed to be on the quiz? You're saying that because the kid proved he knew 83% of the subject, he should get an A? Sure, thats fine if your scale includes 83+ to be an A, but otherwise not. Who doesn't give makeup quizes anyways?? It actually makes perfect mathematical sense.
It's pretty crazy to assume tests have 0 overlap....
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On June 03 2012 02:57 nennx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just because a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. Kid misses quiz, how can you even know if he knows anything that was supposed to be on the quiz? You're saying that because the kid proved he knew 83% of the subject, he should get an A? Sure, thats fine if your scale includes 83+ to be an A, but otherwise not. Who doesn't give makeup quizes anyways?? It actually makes perfect mathematical sense.
I disagree. As a teacher, you are constantly evaluating the students. It is not tough to figure out that the kid knows more than 0% of the content on the quiz. Just because he he didn't take it doesn't mean he has none of the knowledge.
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On June 03 2012 02:57 nennx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. Kid misses quiz, how can you even know if he knows anything that was supposed to be on the quiz? You're saying that because the kid proved he knew 83% of the subject, he should get an A? Sure, thats fine if your scale includes 83+ to be an A, but otherwise not. Who doesn't give makeup quizes anyways?? It actually makes perfect mathematical sense.
i think what he means is a 70% corresponds to a 2.0 and a 1.0 corresponds to a 60 or whatever a D is. etc..
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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 03 2012 02:28 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 02:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 03 2012 02:00 shawster wrote:On June 03 2012 01:47 sereniity wrote:
As I go to school myself I find this a very interesting subject, a question I often bring up is "Are your grades a reflection of your knowledge/skill, or your work put into the class?"
Basically, I feel that even if my english is good enough for grade A, I cannot achieve it unless I come to almost every class and do every piece of homework, even if I get very high scores on my tests. Is this right or wrong?
In my own perfect world, a grade would reflect how a good a certain student is at said subject, not how much time dedicated into it. I know a guy in my english class who is terrible at english, yet he's given grade C. The only reason for that is because he did his homework and was nice to the teacher.
Me on the other hand, had a grudge with the teacher (along with the rest of the class) and I've been having constant meetings with the principal to get ourselves a new teacher (she has a terrible attitude and constantly mocks us, has an aura of prestige as if we're crap and she's the best, yet she can't even spell the word boulder).
Anyway, back on topic, I'm getting an E this year because I basically haven't come to many of her lessons (I have about 60% attendance rate). I did however get a B on my final exams (called 'Nationella Proven' in Sweden).
Maybe this was abit off-topic, I got abit carried away :D... totally disagree with you you're saying that intelligence should be your mark and effort should be less of it. come on now, how successful you are at a certain job is determined by your quality of work. i don't give a shit if you are extremely smart, if that average kid puts out a better product than you he's doing better than you. if you're extremely knowledgeable you should be doing better than the average kid if you are putting out the same effort. it sounds like homework still accounts for a chunk of your mark and that is dragging you down. why don't you just.. iunno.. do it if it's that easy. everyone has to do monotonous tasks, that's the effort part of it. If you are acing every test without studying for them, I hardly think it should matter much whether you wrote that retarded pretend diary your english teacher wanted you to write for class. If you are told that the diary is part of your grade, then you'd better do it if you want a good grade. If it's not graded, then you're right.
But that's stupid, because what matters is how good I am at English not whether I proved it by repeating an inane task 50 times to get a pat on the head.
Yeah, I never liked school much....
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On June 03 2012 02:58 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 02:57 nennx wrote:On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. Kid misses quiz, how can you even know if he knows anything that was supposed to be on the quiz? You're saying that because the kid proved he knew 83% of the subject, he should get an A? Sure, thats fine if your scale includes 83+ to be an A, but otherwise not. Who doesn't give makeup quizes anyways?? It actually makes perfect mathematical sense. It's pretty crazy to assume tests have 0 overlap....
If you're giving 6 quizzes in a semester, then they probably have very little overlap. You can also weight different quizzes differently, etc
I disagree. As a teacher, you are constantly evaluating the students. It is not tough to figure out that the kid knows more than 0% of the content on the quiz. Just because he he didn't take it doesn't mean he has none of the knowledge.
Don't you have full control over what you give each student in the class anyways (as long as it is reasonable). I don't see why you wouldn't have this ability regardless of grades anyways.
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On June 03 2012 02:59 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 02:57 nennx wrote:On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. Kid misses quiz, how can you even know if he knows anything that was supposed to be on the quiz? You're saying that because the kid proved he knew 83% of the subject, he should get an A? Sure, thats fine if your scale includes 83+ to be an A, but otherwise not. Who doesn't give makeup quizes anyways?? It actually makes perfect mathematical sense. i think what he means is a 70% corresponds to a 2.0 and a 1.0 corresponds to a 60 or whatever a D is. etc..
Exactly.
On June 03 2012 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 02:28 Kaitlin wrote:On June 03 2012 02:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 03 2012 02:00 shawster wrote:On June 03 2012 01:47 sereniity wrote:
As I go to school myself I find this a very interesting subject, a question I often bring up is "Are your grades a reflection of your knowledge/skill, or your work put into the class?"
Basically, I feel that even if my english is good enough for grade A, I cannot achieve it unless I come to almost every class and do every piece of homework, even if I get very high scores on my tests. Is this right or wrong?
In my own perfect world, a grade would reflect how a good a certain student is at said subject, not how much time dedicated into it. I know a guy in my english class who is terrible at english, yet he's given grade C. The only reason for that is because he did his homework and was nice to the teacher.
Me on the other hand, had a grudge with the teacher (along with the rest of the class) and I've been having constant meetings with the principal to get ourselves a new teacher (she has a terrible attitude and constantly mocks us, has an aura of prestige as if we're crap and she's the best, yet she can't even spell the word boulder).
Anyway, back on topic, I'm getting an E this year because I basically haven't come to many of her lessons (I have about 60% attendance rate). I did however get a B on my final exams (called 'Nationella Proven' in Sweden).
Maybe this was abit off-topic, I got abit carried away :D... totally disagree with you you're saying that intelligence should be your mark and effort should be less of it. come on now, how successful you are at a certain job is determined by your quality of work. i don't give a shit if you are extremely smart, if that average kid puts out a better product than you he's doing better than you. if you're extremely knowledgeable you should be doing better than the average kid if you are putting out the same effort. it sounds like homework still accounts for a chunk of your mark and that is dragging you down. why don't you just.. iunno.. do it if it's that easy. everyone has to do monotonous tasks, that's the effort part of it. If you are acing every test without studying for them, I hardly think it should matter much whether you wrote that retarded pretend diary your english teacher wanted you to write for class. If you are told that the diary is part of your grade, then you'd better do it if you want a good grade. If it's not graded, then you're right. But that's stupid, because what matters is how good I am at English not whether I proved it by repeating an inane task 50 times to get a pat on the head. Yeah, I never liked school much....
Jinro has it right as well. A 0 only says that the teacher is pissed, and has put in 0 effort to evaluate his/her students.
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Sweden1159 Posts
On June 03 2012 03:02 Trezeguet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 02:59 dreamsmasher wrote:On June 03 2012 02:57 nennx wrote:On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. Kid misses quiz, how can you even know if he knows anything that was supposed to be on the quiz? You're saying that because the kid proved he knew 83% of the subject, he should get an A? Sure, thats fine if your scale includes 83+ to be an A, but otherwise not. Who doesn't give makeup quizes anyways?? It actually makes perfect mathematical sense. i think what he means is a 70% corresponds to a 2.0 and a 1.0 corresponds to a 60 or whatever a D is. etc.. Exactly. Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 03 2012 02:28 Kaitlin wrote:On June 03 2012 02:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 03 2012 02:00 shawster wrote:On June 03 2012 01:47 sereniity wrote:
As I go to school myself I find this a very interesting subject, a question I often bring up is "Are your grades a reflection of your knowledge/skill, or your work put into the class?"
Basically, I feel that even if my english is good enough for grade A, I cannot achieve it unless I come to almost every class and do every piece of homework, even if I get very high scores on my tests. Is this right or wrong?
In my own perfect world, a grade would reflect how a good a certain student is at said subject, not how much time dedicated into it. I know a guy in my english class who is terrible at english, yet he's given grade C. The only reason for that is because he did his homework and was nice to the teacher.
Me on the other hand, had a grudge with the teacher (along with the rest of the class) and I've been having constant meetings with the principal to get ourselves a new teacher (she has a terrible attitude and constantly mocks us, has an aura of prestige as if we're crap and she's the best, yet she can't even spell the word boulder).
Anyway, back on topic, I'm getting an E this year because I basically haven't come to many of her lessons (I have about 60% attendance rate). I did however get a B on my final exams (called 'Nationella Proven' in Sweden).
Maybe this was abit off-topic, I got abit carried away :D... totally disagree with you you're saying that intelligence should be your mark and effort should be less of it. come on now, how successful you are at a certain job is determined by your quality of work. i don't give a shit if you are extremely smart, if that average kid puts out a better product than you he's doing better than you. if you're extremely knowledgeable you should be doing better than the average kid if you are putting out the same effort. it sounds like homework still accounts for a chunk of your mark and that is dragging you down. why don't you just.. iunno.. do it if it's that easy. everyone has to do monotonous tasks, that's the effort part of it. If you are acing every test without studying for them, I hardly think it should matter much whether you wrote that retarded pretend diary your english teacher wanted you to write for class. If you are told that the diary is part of your grade, then you'd better do it if you want a good grade. If it's not graded, then you're right. But that's stupid, because what matters is how good I am at English not whether I proved it by repeating an inane task 50 times to get a pat on the head. Yeah, I never liked school much.... Jinro has it right as well. A 0 only says that the teacher is pissed, and has put in 0 effort to evaluate his/her students.
Oh, a smart teacher! A rare find these days  ...
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On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind.
Failing to hand in an assignment is different to being absent during a quiz.
If you fail to hand in an assignment, it just means you didn't do any work, plain and simple. Even a half-finished assignment would give you more than a 0. If you don't hand it in at all, you did 0, according to the criteria that would tick off 0 checkpoints, so you get a 0. Dunno how I can make this any clearer.
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^ This. The "I'm too smart/knowledgeable I don't need to do homework" never made sense to me. If it was that easy for you, the assignment would take almost no time, right? I don't understand where this attitude comes from, I was taking multi-variable calc in middle school and guess what. I still did my homework. I wasn't special and you certainly aren't special for earning a B on an English test. Are you joking? That isn't even that good.
As pointed out by others, the most common excuses of "my teacher sucks" or "my teacher is an asshole" are equally irrelevant. You'll have shitty professors, you'll have shitty bosses, you'll deal with a LOT of crappy coworkers in your life. The value you bring isn't solely in the quality of work you produce - even more solitary/quantifiable work like research is now very team-based. You need to learn how to tolerate and make the best of situations with people you don't like. Since you seem to think that those rules don't apply to when you enter "the real world," let me assure you that that isn't the case. Even as a personal trainer, you have bosses. Many of them. They're called clients.
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On June 03 2012 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 02:28 Kaitlin wrote:On June 03 2012 02:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 03 2012 02:00 shawster wrote:On June 03 2012 01:47 sereniity wrote:
As I go to school myself I find this a very interesting subject, a question I often bring up is "Are your grades a reflection of your knowledge/skill, or your work put into the class?"
Basically, I feel that even if my english is good enough for grade A, I cannot achieve it unless I come to almost every class and do every piece of homework, even if I get very high scores on my tests. Is this right or wrong?
In my own perfect world, a grade would reflect how a good a certain student is at said subject, not how much time dedicated into it. I know a guy in my english class who is terrible at english, yet he's given grade C. The only reason for that is because he did his homework and was nice to the teacher.
Me on the other hand, had a grudge with the teacher (along with the rest of the class) and I've been having constant meetings with the principal to get ourselves a new teacher (she has a terrible attitude and constantly mocks us, has an aura of prestige as if we're crap and she's the best, yet she can't even spell the word boulder).
Anyway, back on topic, I'm getting an E this year because I basically haven't come to many of her lessons (I have about 60% attendance rate). I did however get a B on my final exams (called 'Nationella Proven' in Sweden).
Maybe this was abit off-topic, I got abit carried away :D... totally disagree with you you're saying that intelligence should be your mark and effort should be less of it. come on now, how successful you are at a certain job is determined by your quality of work. i don't give a shit if you are extremely smart, if that average kid puts out a better product than you he's doing better than you. if you're extremely knowledgeable you should be doing better than the average kid if you are putting out the same effort. it sounds like homework still accounts for a chunk of your mark and that is dragging you down. why don't you just.. iunno.. do it if it's that easy. everyone has to do monotonous tasks, that's the effort part of it. If you are acing every test without studying for them, I hardly think it should matter much whether you wrote that retarded pretend diary your english teacher wanted you to write for class. If you are told that the diary is part of your grade, then you'd better do it if you want a good grade. If it's not graded, then you're right. But that's stupid, because what matters is how good I am at English not whether I proved it by repeating an inane task 50 times to get a pat on the head. Yeah, I never liked school much....
The tests you ace might not test your ability to put your thought into writing, which is probably a rather large part of english course. And skipping out on that the teacher is literally not allowed to give you a good grade, even if they can probably wrangle in a passing grade without anyone whining.
Most of these assignments are to fucking easy anyway at gymnasie level in sweden, so most people whining about how they ace most things and skip them could spend 1-2 hours and get a good grade on that part too.
And well, if you think you can ace everything get a prövning, just waste some time whining about it and most teachers will do it.
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this is the problem with kids today, they are babied too much. if i don't finish a project at work i don't get to make it up, i get fired.
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On June 03 2012 03:00 nennx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 02:58 Serpico wrote:On June 03 2012 02:57 nennx wrote:On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. Kid misses quiz, how can you even know if he knows anything that was supposed to be on the quiz? You're saying that because the kid proved he knew 83% of the subject, he should get an A? Sure, thats fine if your scale includes 83+ to be an A, but otherwise not. Who doesn't give makeup quizes anyways?? It actually makes perfect mathematical sense. It's pretty crazy to assume tests have 0 overlap.... If you're giving 6 quizzes in a semester, then they probably have very little overlap. You can also weight different quizzes differently, etc Show nested quote +I disagree. As a teacher, you are constantly evaluating the students. It is not tough to figure out that the kid knows more than 0% of the content on the quiz. Just because he he didn't take it doesn't mean he has none of the knowledge. Don't you have full control over what you give each student in the class anyways (as long as it is reasonable). I don't see why you wouldn't have this ability regardless of grades anyways.
6 quizzes will have overlap, especially since this guy is a physics teacher. Every time you talk to a kid, or ask the kid a question, you are assessing them. There are over 100 assessments per student every semester.
Very often teachers have full control, but you must have proof as to why you gave a certain grade, and it has to be consistent from kid to kid which is why giving 0s is dumb. It just shits on a kid's grade for no reason. Stubbornness is what makes teachers give 0s.
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On June 03 2012 03:02 Trezeguet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 02:59 dreamsmasher wrote:On June 03 2012 02:57 nennx wrote:On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. Kid misses quiz, how can you even know if he knows anything that was supposed to be on the quiz? You're saying that because the kid proved he knew 83% of the subject, he should get an A? Sure, thats fine if your scale includes 83+ to be an A, but otherwise not. Who doesn't give makeup quizes anyways?? It actually makes perfect mathematical sense. i think what he means is a 70% corresponds to a 2.0 and a 1.0 corresponds to a 60 or whatever a D is. etc.. Exactly. Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 03 2012 02:28 Kaitlin wrote:On June 03 2012 02:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 03 2012 02:00 shawster wrote:On June 03 2012 01:47 sereniity wrote:
As I go to school myself I find this a very interesting subject, a question I often bring up is "Are your grades a reflection of your knowledge/skill, or your work put into the class?"
Basically, I feel that even if my english is good enough for grade A, I cannot achieve it unless I come to almost every class and do every piece of homework, even if I get very high scores on my tests. Is this right or wrong?
In my own perfect world, a grade would reflect how a good a certain student is at said subject, not how much time dedicated into it. I know a guy in my english class who is terrible at english, yet he's given grade C. The only reason for that is because he did his homework and was nice to the teacher.
Me on the other hand, had a grudge with the teacher (along with the rest of the class) and I've been having constant meetings with the principal to get ourselves a new teacher (she has a terrible attitude and constantly mocks us, has an aura of prestige as if we're crap and she's the best, yet she can't even spell the word boulder).
Anyway, back on topic, I'm getting an E this year because I basically haven't come to many of her lessons (I have about 60% attendance rate). I did however get a B on my final exams (called 'Nationella Proven' in Sweden).
Maybe this was abit off-topic, I got abit carried away :D... totally disagree with you you're saying that intelligence should be your mark and effort should be less of it. come on now, how successful you are at a certain job is determined by your quality of work. i don't give a shit if you are extremely smart, if that average kid puts out a better product than you he's doing better than you. if you're extremely knowledgeable you should be doing better than the average kid if you are putting out the same effort. it sounds like homework still accounts for a chunk of your mark and that is dragging you down. why don't you just.. iunno.. do it if it's that easy. everyone has to do monotonous tasks, that's the effort part of it. If you are acing every test without studying for them, I hardly think it should matter much whether you wrote that retarded pretend diary your english teacher wanted you to write for class. If you are told that the diary is part of your grade, then you'd better do it if you want a good grade. If it's not graded, then you're right. But that's stupid, because what matters is how good I am at English not whether I proved it by repeating an inane task 50 times to get a pat on the head. Yeah, I never liked school much.... Jinro has it right as well. A 0 only says that the teacher is pissed, and has put in 0 effort to evaluate his/her students.
That's bullshit. The kid is the one putting in 0 effort, not the teacher. If he misses the test because he's sick, then fine, give him a retake, that's fair because being sick is usually out of your control. But if he just chooses not to go then why the hell should he be rewarded? How is that fair to all the other kids who showed for ALL 6 of the quizes?
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Honestly, it's not really about whether or not you "know the material." A major point of primary education is to make sure that you practice discipline for when it matters, ie. in college, grad school, and most importantly, real life. Past school, you won't have anyone even encouraging discipline. The teachers are there to train you to get to that point where you are able to discipline YOURSELF, and obviously not every entitled high schol kid is at that level, despite what they may think of themselves.
And it so happens that "traning" involves explicitly harsh grades, because otherwise the teacher would be doing a disservice by failing to teach discipline.
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On June 03 2012 03:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. Failing to hand in an assignment is different to being absent during a quiz. If you fail to hand in an assignment, it just means you didn't do any work, plain and simple. Even a half-finished assignment would give you more than a 0. If you don't hand it in at all, you did 0, according to the criteria that would tick off 0 checkpoints, so you get a 0. Dunno how I can make this any clearer. Your argument makes no sense, at all.
he's talking about how grades correspond to GPA. 4 generally is 90-100 3 is 80-89 so on so forth. failing is failing on the GPA scale irrespective of how 'badly' you failed, but attaining a 0 will skew you grades mathematically much harder, you get the point?
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On June 03 2012 03:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. Failing to hand in an assignment is different to being absent during a quiz. If you fail to hand in an assignment, it just means you didn't do any work, plain and simple. Even a half-finished assignment would give you more than a 0. If you don't hand it in at all, you did 0, according to the criteria that would tick off 0 checkpoints, so you get a 0. Dunno how I can make this any clearer.
Yeah, but what if a kid works all night, and then gets everything wrong. 0 for that kid too? Also, kids do work that isn't something that will be graded. I don't grade on class participation, but that doesn't mean kids aren't working in my class.
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On June 03 2012 01:47 sereniity wrote:
As I go to school myself I find this a very interesting subject, a question I often bring up is "Are your grades a reflection of your knowledge/skill, or your work put into the class?"
Basically, I feel that even if my english is good enough for grade A, I cannot achieve it unless I come to almost every class and do every piece of homework, even if I get very high scores on my tests. Is this right or wrong?
In my own perfect world, a grade would reflect how a good a certain student is at said subject, not how much time dedicated into it. After all, when I'm looking for a job, my grades should show how good I am at said thing, not how nice I was in class. Just because I didn't come to every English class doesn't mean I wont come to work every day. I know a guy in my english class who is terrible at english, yet he's given grade C. The only reason for that is because he did his homework and was nice to the teacher.
Me on the other hand, had a grudge with the teacher (along with the rest of the class) and I've been having constant meetings with the principal to get ourselves a new teacher (she has a terrible attitude and constantly mocks us, has an aura of prestige as if we're crap and she's the best, yet she can't even spell the word boulder).
Anyway, back on topic, I'm getting an E this year because I basically haven't come to many of her lessons (I have about 60% attendance rate). I did however get a B on my final exams (called 'Nationella Proven' in Sweden).
Maybe this was abit off-topic, I got abit carried away :D...
this is ridiculous. This seems appealing in high school and middle school, where there is a distribution of intelligence among the students. Competing for jobs, in the real world, which is not the sheltered bureaucratic nonsense of these schools, is not just based around 'who is the smartest.' Between a lazy brilliant person, who is used to relying on their own intellect and never having to actually work, and doesn't have the skills to use if they ever need to actually put effort in if we followed your system, and someone who is hard working and knows how to learn, the person who will put in effort will be chosen every time. The brilliant person will be less motivated to improve, and will be outdone by one who is willing to follow what is necessary to improve.
As much as many high school and college students don't like this, it extends to them as well. If you don't do what is expected of you, be it attendance, turning in assignments etc, regardless of whether or not 'the teacher has a grudge against you' (everyones favorite excuse as to why they are underperforming) then you do not deserve a good grade. If you're worried about how this person you call terrible gets a C, and you get an E for not doing work, the solution is simple: do what is expected of you as a student
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On June 03 2012 03:07 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 03:04 sluggaslamoo wrote:On June 03 2012 02:52 Trezeguet wrote:
Teacher here.
Imagine you have a student who has gotten 100% on 5 of the 6 quizzes in your class. He answers every question right in class, and often enhances all of his peers' knowledge of a subject by leading class discussions to higher level of thinking. This kid misses the last quiz. So you give him a 0% right!?!? Kid averages a 83% B- student. What a joke.
Think of a 4 point scale where 4 is advanced, 3 is proficient, 2 is basic, and 1 is poor. Giving a student a 0/100 is like giving a kid a -6 on a 4 point scale. The point is that in some situations our grading system is beyond stupid and doesn't make mathematical sense. If teachers use grades as a weapon against students, the students learn less. Just becuase a kid doesn't hand in his homework doesn't mean that you can not assess him in a different way. I'm not saying that there should not be a consequence, just that some teachers can be dicks because they think they are teaching kids a lesson, when what they are mostly teaching the kid is that the teacher is a dick, and that the kid shouldn't pay the teacher much mind. Failing to hand in an assignment is different to being absent during a quiz. If you fail to hand in an assignment, it just means you didn't do any work, plain and simple. Even a half-finished assignment would give you more than a 0. If you don't hand it in at all, you did 0, according to the criteria that would tick off 0 checkpoints, so you get a 0. Dunno how I can make this any clearer. Your argument makes no sense, at all. he's talking about how grades correspond to GPA. 4 generally is 90-100 3 is 80-89 so on so forth. failing is failing on the GPA scale irrespective of how 'badly' you failed, but attaining a 0 will skew you grades mathematically much harder, you get the point?
Thank you, yeah, this is my 2nd of 2 points. The grading scale is stupid in a math sense. Why is an F not 0-20%? If it was, I'd give 0s.
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On June 03 2012 03:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2012 02:28 Kaitlin wrote:On June 03 2012 02:18 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On June 03 2012 02:00 shawster wrote:On June 03 2012 01:47 sereniity wrote:
As I go to school myself I find this a very interesting subject, a question I often bring up is "Are your grades a reflection of your knowledge/skill, or your work put into the class?"
Basically, I feel that even if my english is good enough for grade A, I cannot achieve it unless I come to almost every class and do every piece of homework, even if I get very high scores on my tests. Is this right or wrong?
In my own perfect world, a grade would reflect how a good a certain student is at said subject, not how much time dedicated into it. I know a guy in my english class who is terrible at english, yet he's given grade C. The only reason for that is because he did his homework and was nice to the teacher.
Me on the other hand, had a grudge with the teacher (along with the rest of the class) and I've been having constant meetings with the principal to get ourselves a new teacher (she has a terrible attitude and constantly mocks us, has an aura of prestige as if we're crap and she's the best, yet she can't even spell the word boulder).
Anyway, back on topic, I'm getting an E this year because I basically haven't come to many of her lessons (I have about 60% attendance rate). I did however get a B on my final exams (called 'Nationella Proven' in Sweden).
Maybe this was abit off-topic, I got abit carried away :D... totally disagree with you you're saying that intelligence should be your mark and effort should be less of it. come on now, how successful you are at a certain job is determined by your quality of work. i don't give a shit if you are extremely smart, if that average kid puts out a better product than you he's doing better than you. if you're extremely knowledgeable you should be doing better than the average kid if you are putting out the same effort. it sounds like homework still accounts for a chunk of your mark and that is dragging you down. why don't you just.. iunno.. do it if it's that easy. everyone has to do monotonous tasks, that's the effort part of it. If you are acing every test without studying for them, I hardly think it should matter much whether you wrote that retarded pretend diary your english teacher wanted you to write for class. If you are told that the diary is part of your grade, then you'd better do it if you want a good grade. If it's not graded, then you're right. But that's stupid, because what matters is how good I am at English not whether I proved it by repeating an inane task 50 times to get a pat on the head. Yeah, I never liked school much....
Who decides what matters? The school board and the teachers. You're attending their classes after all.
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EPT
