I also wanna note that we are in the transition right now to a RBE. And in the transition our values needs to shift from personal concern to social concern. I suspect based on the direction i have seen in the US that they are moving towards a nordic model(social democracy) as production continue to rise hand in hand with unemployment. People will acknowledge and clamour for reform either causing the collapse of the monetary system or create regulated markets with wellfare states.
What United States are you living in? The US political climate is moving away from the "nordic model," as is the majority of the rest of the developed world to boot.
Indeed. It's a giant mistake, however, and in that respect I think he's right on something, for once. Government regulations and market intervention has nothing what so ever to do with RBE, though.
Did anyone pointed out before that money is not just an incentive mechanism, but it is also a tool of economic calculation, i.e. to guide people in knowing what to produce?
I also wanna note that we are in the transition right now to a RBE. And in the transition our values needs to shift from personal concern to social concern. I suspect based on the direction i have seen in the US that they are moving towards a nordic model(social democracy) as production continue to rise hand in hand with unemployment. People will acknowledge and clamour for reform either causing the collapse of the monetary system or create regulated markets with wellfare states.
What United States are you living in? The US political climate is moving away from the "nordic model," as is the majority of the rest of the developed world to boot.
This is not possible nor is it happening. Occcupy,People going on disability and unemployment that is never gonna stop. And you either pitch out a wellfare check or you accept violence clamour and unrest. Also check out the rhetoric used by obama who realy was the only one that could protect the banks from the mob.
If you want an example of a place moving away from the nordic model take a look at greece.
Obviously if you follow the video... but the video implies that they want it to happen now. But that isn't going to happen is it? Computers aren't that sophisticated yet.
What makes you say that? i have seen machines make pizza grow food even 3D model up a house.. Maybe you are just out of the loop about what technology is out there.
Honestly, you should be banned for posting crap like this. This is nothing but inflammatory and takes away from legitimate discussion, as do most of your posts. If you really believe this junk then turn off your computer and go try to make a difference
I should be banned for it you say? Yet you are promoting this behaviour denying it when you please admiring it when it suits you.
Please I have dealt with enough politicians in my time,like i said before go into your corner and be right while the world starves hopefully in time you will see the errors of your way.
What is stopping you from making these machines? They could do a great deal for society, why are you holding back?
i can't see how this is remotely feasible, this implies all goods and services are of equal value which subsequently diminshes incentive to exceed and rewards incompentencies.
I also wanna note that we are in the transition right now to a RBE. And in the transition our values needs to shift from personal concern to social concern. I suspect based on the direction i have seen in the US that they are moving towards a nordic model(social democracy) as production continue to rise hand in hand with unemployment. People will acknowledge and clamour for reform either causing the collapse of the monetary system or create regulated markets with wellfare states.
What United States are you living in? The US political climate is moving away from the "nordic model," as is the majority of the rest of the developed world to boot.
This is not possible nor is it happening. Occcupy,People going on disability and unemployment that is never gonna stop. And you either pitch out a wellfare check or you accept violence clamour and unrest. Also check out the rhetoric used by obama who realy was the only one that could protect the banks from the mob.
If you want an example of a place moving away from the nordic model take a look at greece.
Occupy is a dead movement that had a negligible impact on the politics of the country. They didn't influence elections or policy. Declaring that unemployment and welfare handouts will remain high in perpetuity is in line with your other predictions that are impossible to prove or disprove and as such are worthless. There was no mob that the banks needed protection from, it goes to show how gullible you are to statements made by other people that you actually believe that Barack Obama protected the banks from being physically attacked by mobs of angry regular people.
Countries are moving away from the cradle to the grave welfare state because it is unsustainable outside of nordic countries. Last gasps like Hollande and Tsipras notwithstanding, endless increases in government spending on social welfare is dead as a blueprint for countries to follow. I don't want to say nordic model because the nordic model is a specialized system where spending is tightly controlled and there are demographic and geographic particularities to those countries that allow the high tax high welfare model to succeed. The ability of them to spend basically nothing on defense is also a big part that also benefits other European countries, when the US withdraws its military from Europe in a decade or two there are going to be more hard choices to be made. Europe has been able to save about a hundred billion dollars a year in aggregate for the last 25 years because America has picked up the continent's defense tab. That won't last forever.
This is the same crap you have posted many times. Nothing you have posted, or linked to has ever answered the basic economic questions that I have asked.
Because it is fiction. Like your "human needs study" - it's one of the most pathetic attempts at a study I've ever seen. Not once is cost, in terms of money or resources, used to justify anything proposed. The math is amazingly bad as well - everything is assumed to be linearly scalable. It really looks like some undergrad slapped it together over the weekend as fan fiction.
What is stopping you from making these machines? They could do a great deal for society, why are you holding back?
Not my area of expertise.
i can't see how this is remotely feasible, this implies all goods and services are of equal value which subsequently diminshes incentive to exceed and rewards incompentencies.
maybe i just don't understand the charter...
I can see the reasoning behind this.
take a look tho and see if this helps your understanding along.
Countries are moving away from the cradle to the grave welfare state because it is unsustainable outside of nordic countries. Last gasps like Hollande and Tsipras notwithstanding, endless increases in government spending on social welfare is dead as a blueprint for countries to follow. I don't want to say nordic model because the nordic model is a specialized system where spending is tightly controlled and there are demographic and geographic particularities to those countries that allow the high tax high welfare model to succeed. The ability of them to spend basically nothing on defense is also a big part that also benefits other European countries, when the US withdraws its military from Europe in a decade or two there are going to be more hard choices to be made. Europe has been able to save about a hundred billion dollars a year in aggregate for the last 25 years because America has picked up the continent's defense tab. That won't last forever.
You still think in the terms of "money" the bankers are well aware of the shifts that are occuring world wide and for them to retain power and keep the system and their power structure going they will have to appease the mob by printing more and more money.
This is why we are moving towards welfare states and if you dont belive that check the statistics for disability,unemployment and welfare that is going up up up. Technological unemployment dont care about rescessions we are approaching what economist has feared for a hundred years the machine age(Insert terminator joke).Where our labour for income system starts collapsing there are no new jobs to create, Automation has cornered us we only have our small corner in the service sector that is being taken over steadily.
can you explain to me what in such a society will replace the economic calculation function that money prices have in any advanced economy?
Furthermore; in a capitalist society we use capitalist means to stop people from using certain resources. What will replace this mechanism in your society?
Could you elaborate how incentive mechanisms will work in this society?
Can you also explain to me how value differentials will be solved? Or will they disappear?
What if people refuse to participate? What will happen to them? Will they be forced to cooperate?
What is the role of government?
Can just a whole bunch of people who like this idea just get together, buy some land somewhere and start by living like this? Why not?
How will decisions regarding capital investment be established? Democratically? And how big would the group be that will democratically choose this? (Or any other mechanism you like.)
There are flaws within every system, Utopias don't exist. Please acknowledge some flaws with the RBE and people will take it more seriously.
Nothing is perfect. But the design is based on the scientific method thus problems will be solved actively.
I also wanna note that we are in the transition right now to a RBE. And in the transition our values needs to shift from personal concern to social concern. I suspect based on the direction i have seen in the US that they are moving towards a nordic model(social democracy) as production continue to rise hand in hand with unemployment. People will acknowledge and clamour for reform either causing the collapse of the monetary system or create regulated markets with wellfare states.
Quit adding zeitgeist videos to this discussion- a hour long video won't add anything to the discussion, as very few people will take time to watch and analyze it. Give us points from the video that you wish to discuss from us, and cite facts with non-biased sources.
How is the design of RBE based on the scientific method?
Unemployment IS NOT rising with the increase of efficiency in production- it never will. The industrial revolution created millions of jobs, rather than increasing unemployment despite the fact that a single product would take less human labor to create.
You are not answering my questions from my previous post:
What will happen when there is a lack of people that do a critical job to the function of society? (such as looking over and maintaining robots)
How will you make sure that there is no corruption amongst everyone?
Personally, I would not like to live in a system where you cannot work for your own good. There are many others who feel the same way. People will quickly take what they have for granted and will want more. What will you do about this?
Unemployment is NOT rising in proportion with technology and automation. Technology is advancing exponentially; if they were correlated, none of us would have jobs next year.
EDIT: just watched the video- I stopped watching when it said 9/11 was a government conspiracy. Seriously? The video has just been degraded to a 2 hour long sensationalist propanganda.
can you explain to me what in such a society will replace the economic calculation function that money prices have in any advanced economy?
This question is not realy specific and what function is this? Please rephrase and i will try and answer.
Furthermore; in a capitalist society we use capitalist means to stop people from using certain resources. What will replace this mechanism in your society?
what is this capitalist means you refer to?
Could you elaborate how incentive mechanisms will work in this society?
You have the freedom to pursue your intrest because most of the systems are automated, Thus freeing us from most forms of menial labour. There is a proposition in the movement to transition from 8 hour work days to 6 then to 4 down to a voulentary basis only. This could happen in only a few years.
Can you also explain to me how value differentials will be solved? Or will they disappear?
People need a certain set of values based of two ultimate truths The emergent nature of the universe(Time) everything changes, And what is right today is wrong tomorow when it comes to human transient truths. This value is important to make people accept changes to their being and the acceptance that one can be wrong and to be wrong is to be elevated. Because someone have raised you up to a higher state of understanding. Symbiosis the understanding of depanancies. Nothing is independent we breathe we drink we are made out of many organs we cannot survive or evolve on our "own" This value is important to understand to help conserve our enviroment and also improve upon it based on the understand that everthing is interconnected. Social concern becomes personal concern.
With these two understanding in mind one can see clearer and reason alot more efficient you still have to deal with your emotions of course.
can you explain to me what in such a society will replace the economic calculation function that money prices have in any advanced economy?
This question is not realy specific and what function is this? Please rephrase and i will try and answer.
He's asking you to do economic math in an RBE, a thing you have on multiple occasions been unable to do.
by now you should know what he will say lol.
Something along the lines of there being "abundant" resources and advanced AIs taking over distribution, making capitalistic economic models obsolete. Oh and that these things are possible within a couple of years.
Furthermore; in a capitalist society we use capitalist means to stop people from using certain resources. What will replace this mechanism in your society?
Could you elaborate how incentive mechanisms will work in this society?
You have the freedom to pursue your intrest because most of the systems are automated, Thus freeing us from most forms of menial labour. There is a proposition in the movement to transition from 8 hour work days to 6 then to 4 down to a voulentary basis only. This could happen in only a few years. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc&feature=related
Can you also explain to me how value differentials will be solved? Or will they disappear?
People need a certain set of values based of two ultimate truths The emergent nature of the universe(Time) everything changes, And what is right today is wrong tomorow when it comes to human transient truths. This value is important to make people accept changes to their being and the acceptance that one can be wrong and to be wrong is to be elevated. Because someone have raised you up to a higher state of understanding. Symbiosis the understanding of depanancies. Nothing is independent we breathe we drink we are made out of many organs we cannot survive or evolve on our "own" This value is important to understand to help conserve our enviroment and also improve upon it based on the understand that everthing is interconnected. Social concern becomes personal concern.
You're totally ignoring on it's practicallity and only looking at what it MIGHT do.
You still haven't told us a definate plan on how society can be automated. With that, RBE cannot function and your arguments are invalid as such an economy cannot exist.
Here is my question for you to answer, in bold:
How will you fully automaticise society in the next few years?
NOTHING that you say about the RBE can be applied if it cannot work.
Furthermore; in a capitalist society we use capitalist means to stop people from using certain resources. What will replace this mechanism in your society?
Could you elaborate how incentive mechanisms will work in this society?
You have the freedom to pursue your intrest because most of the systems are automated, Thus freeing us from most forms of menial labour. There is a proposition in the movement to transition from 8 hour work days to 6 then to 4 down to a voulentary basis only. This could happen in only a few years. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc&feature=related
Can you also explain to me how value differentials will be solved? Or will they disappear?
People need a certain set of values based of two ultimate truths The emergent nature of the universe(Time) everything changes, And what is right today is wrong tomorow when it comes to human transient truths. This value is important to make people accept changes to their being and the acceptance that one can be wrong and to be wrong is to be elevated. Because someone have raised you up to a higher state of understanding. Symbiosis the understanding of depanancies. Nothing is independent we breathe we drink we are made out of many organs we cannot survive or evolve on our "own" This value is important to understand to help conserve our enviroment and also improve upon it based on the understand that everthing is interconnected. Social concern becomes personal concern.
So, you do not understand my basic econ 101 questions, however, you do claim your are well informed enough to know for a fact the RBE can work? A claim that would involve a few hundred years of economists being completely and utterly wrong on the function of money, property rights, the function of prices, etc.
Make no mistake: by supporting the practicality of a world without money you are saying every economist from Adam Smith, David Hume up and till Milton Friedman, Paul Krugman and Ronald Coase is wrong. That is quite a bold statement.
I don't want to belittle your passion, but passion without knowledge is dangerous.
One note to close: automating society is merely improving human productivity. You can not 'automate' the whole of society.
For the record: you do realize that this is just a form of neo-Marxian communism right?
You still think in the terms of "money" the bankers are well aware of the shifts that are occuring world wide and for them to retain power and keep the system and their power structure going they will have to appease the mob by printing more and more money.
Never mind the fact that the opposite is happening, you say that the counterfactuals are occurring and must occur because you say so.
Germany would not be saying no to eurobonds if these shifts were occurring, the ECB would not be laying down strict taxing and spending requirements for Greece to get bailout funds if these shifts were occurring, the IMF and ECB would not be generating press releases every month scolding the United States for not being more fiscally responsible if these shifts were occurring. The Fed never even got the chance to do QE3. France would not be intent on a policy of eating the rich if these shifts were occurring. All these countries and institutions would simply either demand more money be created or be creating more money.
This is why we are moving towards welfare states and if you dont belive that check the statistics for disability,unemployment and welfare that is going up up up.
None of these things have anything to do with the willingness of governments and citizens to provide an ever-growing welfare state and none of them are indicative of an inevitable ever-growing welfare state. Unfunded entitlement liabilities are going to be the biggest domestic political issue of the 21st century in developed countries (and unequally developed economies like China and India too) and there is no feasible solution but to reform the welfare state to hand out less benefits.
Technological unemployment dont care about rescessions
Of course it does. Less demand in a recession is the same thing as less production. Automated production doesn't escape. Only in the Nirvana Fallacy solution of a money-free society does technological unemployment not care about recessions because there is no unemployment. Employment in fact does not exist save for the administrator class, isn't that the point of your RBE no-money utopia? No one has to work except the administrators?
This we are approaching what economist has feared for a hundred years the machine age(Insert terminator joke).Where our labour for income system starts collapsing there are no new jobs to create,
As it has been predicted several times before and did not happen, as "economists" who have predicted this failed to predict the new types of jobs that were created.
Automation has cornered us we only have our small corner in the service sector that is being taken over steadily.
No it isn't. You just don't know what you're talking about with your ludicrous videos and laughable assertions. Automation in the service sector has actually been replaced by humans in many areas as the reaction to increasing automation was negative from consumers. Turns out people prefer talking to someone working in a call center in India over talking to a computer. Where does that fit in with your inevitable point A to point B view of history?
None of these things have anything to do with the willingness of governments and citizens to provide an ever-growing welfare state and none of them are indicative of an inevitable ever-growing welfare state. Unfunded entitlement liabilities are going to be the biggest domestic political issue of the 21st century in developed countries (and unequally developed economies like China and India too) and there is no feasible solution but to reform the welfare state to hand out less benefits.
On May 27 2012 02:47 DeepElemBlues wrote: None of these things have anything to do with the willingness of governments and citizens to provide an ever-growing welfare state and none of them are indicative of an inevitable ever-growing welfare state. Unfunded entitlement liabilities are going to be the biggest domestic political issue of the 21st century in developed countries (and unequally developed economies like China and India too) and there is no feasible solution but to reform the welfare state to hand out less benefits.
It's not really some huge surprise or insurmountable problem that when you cut funding to entitlements in a deliberate effort to make them unsustainable, they become unsustainble. The solution is pretty simple: return to the previous sustainable levels of funding.
On May 27 2012 02:47 DeepElemBlues wrote: None of these things have anything to do with the willingness of governments and citizens to provide an ever-growing welfare state and none of them are indicative of an inevitable ever-growing welfare state. Unfunded entitlement liabilities are going to be the biggest domestic political issue of the 21st century in developed countries (and unequally developed economies like China and India too) and there is no feasible solution but to reform the welfare state to hand out less benefits.
It's not really some huge surprise or insurmountable problem that when you cut funding to entitlements in a deliberate effort to make them unsustainable, they become unsustainble. The solution is pretty simple: return to the previous sustainable levels of funding.
You use the term 'unsustainable', but you use it differently than economists.
Economists do not mean 'well, we could sustain it, if you just spend enough money on it. But we aren't doing that, so it is unsustainable'.
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