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XeliN
United Kingdom1755 Posts
Havent watched the vid though, mostly the Zeitgeist link put me off, not because im for or against it, but the type of people that either blindly agree with it as some form of revolutionary prophetic gift that can't be argued with or falsified, or the type of people who blindly dismiss it out of hand, disparagingly judging any supporters with derision and scorn. Are kinda irritating  | ||
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Dekoth
United States527 Posts
On May 29 2012 12:01 Zinnwaldite wrote: dammit,, thought this project would be full of naked women for some reason... >_> If it were, I would be far less critical. Full of "hot" naked women at least...wanted to make that definition clear since in my experience most of the women willing to get naked in public are the ones you wished to god wouldn't. | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
Havent watched the vid though, mostly the Zeitgeist link put me off, not because im for or against it, but the type of people that either blindly agree with it as some form of revolutionary prophetic gift that can't be argued with or falsified, or the type of people who blindly dismiss it out of hand, disparagingly judging any supporters with derision and scorn. Are kinda irritating Yes i can see how people blindly follow the most sane approach that exist to acquire facts, The scientific method. I mean here you are basing stuff of your opinion or maybe something "god" said. And on the other hand you have these "blind zealots" as you refer them to actually go into systems examine it using the scientific method to find out what works and what dont work. And when they come back with the results you look at it for 1 second and say naah their crazy maybe just maybe they arent the ones that are crazy. | ||
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-Kira
352 Posts
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HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On May 29 2012 22:33 DeliCiousVP wrote: Yes i can see how people blindly follow the most sane approach that exist to acquire facts, The scientific method. I mean here you are basing stuff of your opinion or maybe something "god" said. And on the other hand you have these "blind zealots" as you refer them to actually go into systems examine it using the scientific method to find out what works and what dont work. And when they come back with the results you look at it for 1 second and say naah their crazy maybe just maybe they arent the ones that are crazy. I'm pretty sure we have several legitimate scientific areas dealing with these issues. You know, political science, conflict studies, economics (macro, micro, various kinds), engineering (various kinds) and so on. The problem is that these invisible people who research for your movement don't seem to grasp almost any established concept within the accepted disciplines of science (I'm pretty sure they're all based on the scientific method by the way) and just whisk them away with idealism. It's not crazy, it's just stupid and shows a lack of understanding. Apply your arguments/ad hominems to yourself instead, thank you. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
The incentive argument for the current system we have is not only is inconsistent with the pyschological motivations behind working hard and satisfaction, but even if you accept it as truly being able to incentivise it fails miserably for all but an infintesimal ammount of people. Actually the current method of incentive fails miserably for an infinitesimal amount of people, the same amount of people you find supporting ideas like a "resource based economy." That's the biggest part of the reason for these ideas being very fringe and is why a big part of the arguments advocating for an RBE involve claiming that the vast majority of people are victims of a false consciousness. | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
I'm pretty sure we have several legitimate scientific areas dealing with these issues. You know, political science, conflict studies, economics (macro, micro, various kinds), engineering (various kinds) and so on. The problem is that these invisible people who research for your movement don't seem to grasp almost any established concept within the accepted disciplines of science we could have half the people on Ted but dont get it messed up just because you support the movement that dont mean you dont have to operate in a monetary system. There is no alternative atm. Another clueless scientist. But dont get it messed up you guys are all winning the admins of TL 100% agree with you. That dont mean im wrong however. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340818 That's the biggest part of the reason for these ideas being very fringe and is why a big part of the arguments advocating for an RBE involve claiming that the vast majority of people are victims of a false consciousness. I would say that is pretty accurate. Try convincing someone that there is something wrong with the system which also deducts that there is something wrong with you. I have no problem accepting that there is something wrong with me but many people are rubbed the wrong way by this. | ||
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GenghisKhan
United Kingdom68 Posts
However, I will make one point. I think that the reason for a lot of ideas and concepts like this, and their reasonably large following, is because people like to believe that they are part of something new and different - that they are the radicals of society, and not just 'blind sheep like everyone else'. Owing to this, they will literally latch onto anything which sounds remotely plausable (Such as an RBE), but is different enough from the common view/current paradigms. In desperately trying to achieve individuality, these people are just achieving stupidity. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On May 30 2012 00:29 DeliCiousVP wrote: we could have half the people on Ted but dont get it messed up just because you support the movement that dont mean you dont have to operate in a monetary system. There is no alternative atm. Another clueless scientist. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9zkwK2V4D0 But dont get it messed up you guys are all winning the admins of TL 100% agree with you. That dont mean im wrong however. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340818 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qKAse8388k I would say that is pretty accurate. Try convincing someone that there is something wrong with the system which also deducts that there is something wrong with you. I have no problem accepted that there is something wrong with me but many people are rubbed the wrong way by this. I can counter with a video of equal plausibility: Very similar ideas by the way. Sell a utopical idea which clearly defies logic, and everything that is right simply on the basis that it would be very nice if it was true. | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
I would attempt to debate this individual, but his grammar and spelling are so abysmal as to be nearly unreadable  We are known for that in the field i work in, And casual gaming for years dont help.Best video ever http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_2DmyD3hXGk Seen it twice oh man im already breathing alot better! Very similar ideas by the way. Sell a utopical idea which clearly defies logic, and everything that is right simply on the basis that it would be very nice if it was true. I can definitly see the relationship between a scientist keeping a lecture on Ted on his field of expertise and a ministrel shocking people to quit their nictonine addiction Kiarp there is no beating you is there. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On May 30 2012 00:29 DeliCiousVP wrote: we could have half the people on Ted but dont get it messed up just because you support the movement that dont mean you dont have to operate in a monetary system. There is no alternative atm. Another clueless scientist. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9zkwK2V4D0 How does linking a video to a CEO explaining how he's solving critical world problems encourage us to forgo the money system and capitalism in order to start an unproven and untested economic system (RBE)? | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1728 Posts
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On May 30 2012 00:47 DeliCiousVP wrote: We are known for that in the field i work in, And casual gaming for years dont help.Best video ever http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_2DmyD3hXGk Seen it twice oh man im already breathing alot better! I can definitly see the relationship between a scientist keeping a lecture on Ted on his field of expertise and a ministrel shocking people to quit their nictonine addiction Kiarp there is no beating you is there. ok ok. Fine, I'll break it down for you since you don't understand. TED lectures are lectures about innovation which may come in the future, but it also may not. The first lecture about green energy, sure it's really cool, but if you ask anyone actually working on this stuff it's no where near being usable yet. I've worked with graphene, and quantum-dot based solar panels a bit, and it's nowhere near being reliable, sufficient, or cost-efficient enough for actual widespread use. TED lectures never contain any actual hard science, the guy presented no math, no efficiency, or output charts... it's not actual science, it's just an attempt to bring up layman interest in what scientists are doing. There's an enormous engineering gap that the speaker intentionally does not mention, not because he's trying to deceive you, but because there's nothing to really talk about, or any results that anyone would actually find exciting or promising yet, it's simply a concept as of now, and will be in the near future. Now the second video isn't even a remotely scientific (just like one should expect from Peter Joseph,) and it doesn't propose any type of solutions. It's a standard preach for increased social responsibility, presented through the outlining of current and possible future world problems, however, the existence of these problems doesn't make his opinion anymore credible. It's a common example of missing context, because he doesn't show the entire trade-off that occurs which results in these problems, he has nothing to compare the current world to, because no plausible model exists, so he settles for tugging at the naive listeners' consciences which in reality boils down to "Oh, if we were less human and more hive-minded like ants, or bees, then maybe these problems wouldn't exist for us, and we could all strive for the greater good ." Which is silly, even a first grader will tell you that a human that pretends to be a different animal is still a human. | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
How does linking a video to a CEO explaining how he's solving critical world problems encourage us to forgo the money system and capitalism in order to start an unproven and untested economic system (RBE)? Hes job is not to encourage people even tho he tries. There are alot of places where i have to hold my tongue to have a lecture relevant to the area im in. But like he says we can do better than this many of you havent seen the collapse worldwide its not as much a monetary collapse as it is in our enviroment being polluted and we have to realy on technologies to even survive in areas that were previously habitable.Think Command and conquer Blue zones yellow zones and red zones. Hopefuly i get the thread so i can create a FAQ i wont get to much into sources in this thread. Fine, I'll break it down for you since you don't understand. TED lectures are lectures about innovation which may come in the future, but it also may not. The first lecture about green energy, sure it's really cool, but if you ask anyone actually working on this stuff it's no where near being usable yet. You dont think that excused is used by everyone with disbelief? You can do better. Except for how I've tested a lot of the damn things, and actually read lab reports of others' experiments and these things are simply not usable right now, period. I beat you did.. http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
edit: It's not disbelief, I don't at all think it's un-plausible to have our windows generate electricity, now I know for a FACT that it's unplausible to have the sky-scraper he showed in the picture to generate all the electricity needs to operate normally just from its windows, especially if it's an office building... You seem to think that just because "Oh we can put solar cells on windows," and "Oh, windows are everywhere," all our energy problems are solved... That's an incredibly naive thought. We consume much more energy than can be generated by the surface area of our locales, even assuming perfect incidence angle (which is obviously impossible,) and after you start to factor things in like average sunlight, fragility (graphene is very fragile unless protected,) the amount of efficiency lost from said protection, etc. It's simply not worth it, eventually it will be though, both because the techonology will be better, and energy will be more expensive in general like your second video rightfully identifies, but just because we'll have power-generating windows, it doesn't mean that we will solve our energy scarcity problems... we won't. Except for how I've tested a lot of the damn things, and actually read lab reports of others' experiments and these things are simply not usable right now, period. I beat you did.. http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html I didn't test all of them, but I tested some quantum-dot DSSC's in particular, our labs may not have produced the best cells, but I read published reports of other labs, and although their results were often better it was still not in the range necessary to be viable for widespread use. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On May 30 2012 01:27 DeliCiousVP wrote: Hes job is not to encourage people even tho he tries. There are alot of places where i have to hold my tongue to have a lecture relevant to the area im in. But like he says we can do better than this many of you havent seen the collapse worldwide its not as much a monetary collapse as it is in our enviroment being polluted and we have to realy on technologies to even survive in areas that were previously habitable. Think Command and conquer Blue zones yellow zones and red zones. Hopefuly i get the thread so i can create a FAQ i wont get to much into sources in this thread. You are missing my point though. The world is aware of its problems and is already working to resolve them. So why change to an unproven and untested RBE system? Seems like a wasteful distraction... | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
You are missing my point though. The world is aware of its problems and is already working to resolve them. So why change to an unproven and untested RBE system? Seems like a wasteful distraction.. Because most of the problems is due to the monetary system and the values they enforce. Many of these problems cannot be solved in a monetary system. RBE is the best alternative we have to a monetary system and is no doubt the next form of "governance" we will use. Because lets face it non of us are free we are only better of due to the technology we have today. And if you dont belive that leave your wallet at home and try and be free see what standard of living you will have and how far you will get. | ||
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JonnyBNoHo
United States6277 Posts
On May 30 2012 01:59 DeliCiousVP wrote: Because most of the problems is due to the monetary system and the values they enforce. Many of these problems cannot be solved in a monetary system. RBE is the best alternative we have to a monetary system and is no doubt the next form of "governance" we will use. Because lets face it non of us are free we are only better of due to the technology we have today. And if you dont belive that leave your wallet at home and try and be free see what standard of living you will have and how far you will get. But that's a silly argument. You can't just say 'RBE is the best alternative' when no one has done any scientific analysis to show that it, in fact, is. Just because the current system is imperfect you cannot assume that an alternative is better. That is speculation, not science. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On May 30 2012 01:59 DeliCiousVP wrote: Because most of the problems is due to the monetary system and the values they enforce. Many of these problems cannot be solved in a monetary system. RBE is the best alternative we have to a monetary system and is no doubt the next form of "governance" we will use. Because lets face it non of us are free we are only better of due to the technology we have today. And if you dont belive that leave your wallet at home and try and be free see what standard of living you will have and how far you will get. Wrong. Monetary system is the result of our natural value systems, not the other way around. And, if you think it is fair to say that monetary system is the source of the problems, then it is just as fair to say that monetary system is the source of all our technological solutions, because it is in fact technological solutions to already existing problems that created new problems. | ||
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DeliCiousVP
Sweden343 Posts
But that's a silly argument. You can't just say 'RBE is the best alternative' when no one has done any scientific analysis to show that it, in fact, is. What if it is all based on scientific facts/studies? And no speculation is allowed into the construction of the system. It is true that the multitudes of systems that would be used in a RBE have never tested toghether at once. But the independent parts of it has all been tested and is based on science not opinion or speculation. The scary part for many is the behaviour science which many people consider taboo, What makes a human and what creates human behaviour? What is desirable in human behaviour for the future and what is not? Just because the current system is imperfect you cannot assume that an alternative is better. If you had the insight i have into what shapes human behaviour this would be commen sense to you. Most likely your understanding is being blocked by a multitude of factors one including. What about "Human nature" your refrence to what you see and what you think you understand immiedietly assumes that you know what human nature is. | ||
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