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On May 30 2012 02:08 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 01:59 DeliCiousVP wrote:You are missing my point though. The world is aware of its problems and is already working to resolve them. So why change to an unproven and untested RBE system? Seems like a wasteful distraction.. Because most of the problems is due to the monetary system and the values they enforce. Many of these problems cannot be solved in a monetary system. RBE is the best alternative we have to a monetary system and is no doubt the next form of "governance" we will use. Because lets face it non of us are free we are only better of due to the technology we have today. And if you dont belive that leave your wallet at home and try and be free see what standard of living you will have and how far you will get. Wrong. Monetary system is the result of our natural value systems, not the other way around. And, if you think it is fair to say that monetary system is the source of the problems, then it is just as fair to say that monetary system is the source of all our technological solutions, because it is in fact technological solutions to already existing problems that created new problems.
Could you describe what you call a "natural value systems" ? Because I don't see what you are referring to. I also don't think that the monetary system is the source of "the problems" but it has its consequences (corruption, greed, profit, individualism etc...). I think that's what he meant.
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On May 30 2012 02:21 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +But that's a silly argument. You can't just say 'RBE is the best alternative' when no one has done any scientific analysis to show that it, in fact, is. What if it is all based on scientific facts/studies? And no speculation is allowed into the construction of the system. It is true that the multitudes of systems that would be used in a RBE have never tested toghether at once. But the independent parts of it has all been tested and is based on science not opinion or speculation. The scary part for many is the behaviour science which many people consider taboo, What makes a human and what creates human behaviour? What is desirable in human behaviour for the future and what is not?
If it was based on scientific facts and studies then it would be worth a shot. Unfortunately that is not the case. The independent parts that form the core of what the RBE is have not been tested. If you look at the source material to either the Zeitgeist films or the Venus Project there are no studies that show how core concepts such as 'everything is free' and 'no money' will work.
For example:
1) Economic studies and empirical evidence show that as price is lowered people will demand more of a given product or service. If everything is free people will want to consume more than can be produced and shortages will occur. What scientifically proven system will prevent this from occurring?
2) In order for economies to function they must be able to perform 'economic calculations' which involve valuing one thing against another. This is an absolute necessity in any economy including a RBE. What scientifically proven methodology for valuing resources and products exists outside the market price system?
Note: these are questions you have been asked before and have not sufficiently answered. Zeitgeist videos, source material, articles written by Jacque Fresco, YouTube videos of Jacque Fresco and the entire Venus Project website do not answer these questions either. I've looked all of them over many times. If it's in there, if I've missed it somehow, then show exactly where it is.
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On May 30 2012 02:23 lain2501 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 02:08 Kiarip wrote:On May 30 2012 01:59 DeliCiousVP wrote:You are missing my point though. The world is aware of its problems and is already working to resolve them. So why change to an unproven and untested RBE system? Seems like a wasteful distraction.. Because most of the problems is due to the monetary system and the values they enforce. Many of these problems cannot be solved in a monetary system. RBE is the best alternative we have to a monetary system and is no doubt the next form of "governance" we will use. Because lets face it non of us are free we are only better of due to the technology we have today. And if you dont belive that leave your wallet at home and try and be free see what standard of living you will have and how far you will get. Wrong. Monetary system is the result of our natural value systems, not the other way around. And, if you think it is fair to say that monetary system is the source of the problems, then it is just as fair to say that monetary system is the source of all our technological solutions, because it is in fact technological solutions to already existing problems that created new problems. Could you describe what you call a "natural value systems" ? Because I don't see what you are referring to. I also don't think that the monetary system is the source of "the problems" but it has its consequences (corruption, greed, profit, individualism etc...). I think that's what he meant.
We derive large portions of our value system from our genetic make-up. Values provide motivation for our action, human natural values are those that were more or less the most effective ones for the survival of our species back when evolution guided our development (pre-historic times obviously,) since then we have created civilization in which we no longer genetically adapt to our changing environment as we are able to control it to a large extent.
The typical hyper-liberal or utopian viewpoint is that, humans can be molded into anything, and it's our institutions that are at fault for making us who we are, and if that the institutions were right, then there'd be nothing that would give us any problems. It ignores the fact that our deepest motivations such as individualism, competitiveness, our disproportionate love and compassion towards our relatives as opposed to towards strangers are hard-coded, what makes us human in the first place and is very possible what allowed us to even get to this point as a species today. One can argue that the world we now live in grotesquely distorts these instincts into terrible human traits, however the truth is that it's these instincts that allowed us to build the world that we live in today, you can't have your cake and eat it too, there's a reason why we're not a hive-minded species working for the "greater good."
All utopian style philosophies want to somehow convert people to this way of thinking, not realizing that this conversion isn't actually possible. We're not ants, or bees, we don't live in hives with a single purpose in mind, everyone being absolutely content to do their job of serving the queen so that she could reproduce, it's not how humanity works.
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1) Economic studies and empirical evidence show that as price is lowered people will demand more of a given product or service.
"empirical evidence show" There is no such "evidence" but just for the sake of argument we will assume this is the case.
You are again talking about what you belive to be "human nature" But behaviour and values are changed and to understand and live in this system you need a diffrent set of values and a deeper understanding.
As peronal concern becomes social concern and the understanding of the symbiotic nature of all "life" we wont go out and demand something just because it is for free, People will demand access yes sometimes even ownership but the system will be more then capable of substaining that.
We can make due with less resources than we are using today, But just to be sure we will have a production that can easily satisfy the current monetary demands by many times over.
When one examines the technology and the human behaviour studies it becomes obvious what we are capable of today and it far exceds what the majority perceive as possible.
I find it very ironic that you think i overrate what is possible today if you only knew what some of these enginners and scientist thougth we could do today if we were in a resource based economy.
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This resource based econmy is basically, a "if we can build a computer powerful enough to calculate the most useful way to allocate all our resources and labor we would have more stuff than we do now."
well duh, but first of all this "benefit of society," is a very subjective topic, Hitler though that he was benefitting the society, and even though that's a very extreme example it shows that there's no such thing as one "greater good of the society."
And once again, the problem of perfect or even anything that approaches perfect resource allocation is of impossible complexity to solve, you have been dodging this fact forever, but it completely debunks any notion that a command-style economy could be very productive, and resource-efficient... it can't, because it's not a humanly solvable problem, because all humans are individualists by nature, and not members of a hive-mind.
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This resource based econmy is basically, a "if we can build a computer powerful enough to calculate the most useful way to allocate all our resources and labor we would have more stuff than we do now. You dont think we have been "able" to do this for a centuary?It is just becoming more obvious,easier and more needed per year, You guys sit in your safe enivorments clueless about what kind of destruction is realy going on how much fresh water we are polluting how disgusting and bad it really is.
Technology has reached the point where the monetary system is a massive burdon on it, The money going towards a war could feed the entire world. And presidential candiates are talking about gay marriage. Do you truly belive this farce is the best we can do?
http://www.ted.com/talks/garth_lenz_images_of_beauty_and_devastation.html
There is an abundance of stuff like this happening and i mean thousand maybe even millions of smaller larger situations like these happening all over the world, You think its a strucual annomoly ? That these things are just the work of a few greedy men this is our system this is your GDP.
Must make profit regardless of human and enviromental costs, The system is supposed to serve us we are not supposed to serve the system. How can we benefit from something that systematicly destroy out planet? We are cancer to this world.
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On May 30 2012 03:34 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +This resource based econmy is basically, a "if we can build a computer powerful enough to calculate the most useful way to allocate all our resources and labor we would have more stuff than we do now. You dont think we have been "able" to do this for a centuary?It is just becoming more obvious,easier and more needed per year, You guys sit in your safe enivorments clueless about what kind of destruction is realy going on how much fresh water we are polluting how disgusting and bad it really is.
First of all it's not possible now, and it more than likely won't ever be possible. If you think it is, why don't you link to an example of this amazing algorithm which will distribute stuff... you can't it doens't exist, the computational complexity is too high.
Technology has reached the point where the monetary system is a massive burdon on it, The money going towards a war could feed the entire world. And presidential candiates are talking about gay marriage. Do you truly belive this farce is the best we can do?
Technology has not reached any point on it's own. It's this "monetary system," that got technology where it is today, so don't get it twisted. Free market is the direct result of individuals striving for their own individual (and as it has already been established, our motivations are relatively individualistic on the scale of person-family-friends, it's what makes us human) material goals in this world. Money is a way for us to exchange goods conveniently in pursuit of our goals. Technology is simply the result of people trying to achieve their goals in a better new way, and it is more often than not the free market economy which allows for technology to develop.
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On May 30 2012 03:16 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +1) Economic studies and empirical evidence show that as price is lowered people will demand more of a given product or service. "empirical evidence show" There is no such "evidence" but just for the sake of argument we will assume this is the case. You are again talking about what you belive to be "human nature" But behaviour and values are changed and to understand and live in this system you need a diffrent set of values and a deeper understanding. As peronal concern becomes social concern and the understanding of the symbiotic nature of all "life" we wont go out and demand something just because it is for free, People will demand access yes sometimes even ownership but the system will be more then capable of substaining that.
I am NOT making an argument about human nature. This is about scientific and empirical evidence.
When a retailer puts a product on sale (lowers price) more of that product is purchased. This has been observed by economists and creates the basis of the demand curve (the demand part of supply and demand) which has been tested and validated by PhD level research for centuries.
If you disagree with that notion, you are going to need A LOT of scientific evidence to disprove it.
So far you have shown none.
Edit: It is dishonest to claim to want us to follow the 'scientific method' while basing all your arguments on emotion and philosophical speculation.
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First of all it's not possible now, and it more than likely won't ever be possible. If you think it is, why don't you link to an example of this amazing algorithm which will distribute stuff... you can't it doens't exist, the computational complexity is too high.
You want me to link you to excell ? you think its hard meassuing supply and demand? Our system is broken to the core with technologies taken ages before realized because of the massive inefficiences of the infrastructure and all the obstacles it face.
Maybe we can paint you brown and put you in a refuge camp in sudan and you can lecture people about freedom and how the system works just fine.
It either works for all of us or its unsubstainable.
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On May 30 2012 04:05 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +First of all it's not possible now, and it more than likely won't ever be possible. If you think it is, why don't you link to an example of this amazing algorithm which will distribute stuff... you can't it doens't exist, the computational complexity is too high. You want me to link you to excell ? you think its hard meassuing supply and demand? Our system is broken to the core with technologies taken ages before realized because of the massive inefficiences of the infrastructure and all the obstacles it face. Maybe we can paint you brown and put you in a refuge camp in sudan and you can lecture people about freedom and how the system works just fine. It either works for all of us or its unsubstainable.
If you have an excel spreadsheet that shows economic calculation in a RBE why have you and Zeitgeist and the Venus Project been holding out on us? Please link me to it ASAP!
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On May 30 2012 04:05 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +First of all it's not possible now, and it more than likely won't ever be possible. If you think it is, why don't you link to an example of this amazing algorithm which will distribute stuff... you can't it doens't exist, the computational complexity is too high. You want me to link you to excell ? you think its hard meassuing supply and demand? Our system is broken to the core with technologies taken ages before realized because of the massive inefficiences of the infrastructure and all the obstacles it face. Maybe we can paint you brown and put you in a refuge camp in sudan and you can lecture people about freedom and how the system works just fine. It either works for all of us or its unsubstainable.
It is impossible to measure demand because it requires knowledge of individual preferences that even individuals themselves cannot know and formulate entirely, and can shift on a day to day basis. The system you describe is epistemically impossible, next to all the gazillion practical problems.
Unless your version of excel has mindreading capabilities obviously.
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I do not believe a project like this is sustainable, but he is a fascinating person. Listening to him talk was very educational, and he certainly has a lot of good ideas. I would recommend watching the videos, at least.
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If you have an excel spreadsheet that shows economic calculation in a RBE why have you and Zeitgeist and the Venus Project been holding out on us?
Nobody is holding out on you its just such a dumb question, Because its obvious you see what products people want as they access it and meassures are taken. This is not rocket science you just overcomplicate it.
It is impossible to measure demand because it requires knowledge of individual preferences that even individuals themselves cannot know and formulate entirely, and can shift on a day to day basis. The system you describe is epistemically impossible,
You think this is hard seriously? go to a website request an item and offer a product review or communicate with the person who designed it and help improve it. The data will be added to whatever program we have that meassures this sort of things. and infrastructue will be adapted accordingly.
If let say certainly demand for a product start skyrocketing this will be investigated quickly to determine the cause and nesscecity aswell as adapt manufacturing to appease.
This question has been adequately answered several times. If i got my thread i could hit up an enginner to give some advanced data.
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So are you actually going to produce any fact based evidence? Or am I completely wasting my time continuing to read this drivel? I swear, the fact that this "concept" can't even hold up under the scrutiny of a gaming forum on the internet much less a real academic panel should be ones first clue.
Back it up with real facts and not tinfoil hat shit or accept the fact that you are wrong.
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Go to a website and request an item? Alright, how do you prevent someone from bruteforcing the website or service to make hundreds of malicious demands? You don't have any money from the individual side switching hands, so the producer has to abide to every request without the attacker having any damage ( monetary ) dealt to him. This would obviously create a whole range of problems because resources will be distributed inefficiently by making products that nobody actually needs.
If you are letting technology rule the distribution of food and other products, then that system itself will at one point go under attack. No computer system in the entire world has ever been completely safe from these exploits, and a system that has millions of users to abide to WILL crash at one point or another. What happens in the case of an electricity failure? Does nothing get distributed anymore because the system is offline? That's okay, the elderly can wait for their medicine for a long time.
If you plan on redistributing the resources based on face to face input, does every human just fill in a form every day to let some other poor dude read over it? How will you make the input easy for the people, yet safe and easy to process? This task is MONSTEROUS because the wants of man changes almost as much as the weather, and you need to keep the wants up to date if you want to make the distribution more efficient than our current money system, that doesn't rely on a central system knowing everything, and instead relies on the individual going to a store to buy something.
And why do you need your own thread to get an 'engineer' to give us advanced data? Are you really that pride dependant that that happens in your own thread? Ask him to come over in THIS thread and prove us all wrong, please. I would love to hear his or her arguments for the RBE.
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On May 30 2012 04:38 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +If you have an excel spreadsheet that shows economic calculation in a RBE why have you and Zeitgeist and the Venus Project been holding out on us? Nobody is holding out on you its just such a dumb question, Because its obvious you see what products people want as they access it and meassures are taken. This is not rocket science you just overcomplicate it. Show nested quote +It is impossible to measure demand because it requires knowledge of individual preferences that even individuals themselves cannot know and formulate entirely, and can shift on a day to day basis. The system you describe is epistemically impossible, You think this is hard seriously? go to a website request an item and offer a product review or communicate with the person who designed it and help improve it. The data will be added to whatever program we have that meassures this sort of things. and infrastructue will be adapted accordingly. If let say certainly demand for a product start skyrocketing this will be investigated quickly to determine the cause and nesscecity aswell as adapt manufacturing to appease. This question has been adequately answered several times. If i got my thread i could hit up an enginner to give some advanced data.
It's obvious? Yes, because it went so well in the USSR and continues to do so in North Korea and Cuba. Command economies do not work. They have been shown time and again to not react to shifts in people's tastes and preferences and cannot due so specifically because a price system does not exist.
What happens under command economies? There are shortages for the things that are artifically underpriced (or free) and stockpiles of things that people don't want. A black market breaks out for trade in the things people are unable to get due to lack of production and yet again the free market reigns.
Until you can make it that all menial labor is automated and there are unlimited resources (thus making the whole study of economics moot) an installation of an economy without money will be much more inefficent than what we have today. Every single "source" that you link in multiple places does nothing but offer "wouldn't it be great if?" statements and not actual study into how to make those things happen. A big, bold goal is great but someone has to do the work to get to that goal. "We'll figure it out" is not an answer.
You have shown no evidence that either of these things are currently possible nor will be in the immediate future.
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On May 30 2012 04:38 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +If you have an excel spreadsheet that shows economic calculation in a RBE why have you and Zeitgeist and the Venus Project been holding out on us? Nobody is holding out on you its just such a dumb question, Because its obvious you see what products people want as they access it and meassures are taken. This is not rocket science you just overcomplicate it.
I understand that part. As people eat bananas more are produced and delivered to the store where they were picked up.
That's not the question being asked. We've been over this countless times. An economic calculation problem is not a consumption problem it is a production problem.
The problem is that it requires scarce resources to produce products. This does not just include natural resources but man-made resources as well along with human labor. These resources are not infinite, they are scarce. Because of their scarcity you need a way to value a finished product relative to the value of its inputs. This is both true in a monetary system as well as a RBE. People cannot have everything, there must be a limiting factor.
What is that limiting factor? As best I can tell you are going to give producers quotas (meet demand!) without a way to measure cost (meet demand at any price!). How then will you prioritize what demand gets fulfilled first? How do you communicate this knowledge throughout the supply chain in terms of priority?
Again, and again and again - this is not about consumption or distribution. This is about production. You cannot produce by just setting quotas to meet demand. Without a way to measure economic inputs and economic outputs, eventually the system will implode upon itself.
Edit: For more information please see "The Economic Calculation Problem in the Socialist Republic"
http://mises.org/pdf/econcalc.pdf
Or for a shorter read:
http://mises.org/humanaction/chap26sec1.asp
Note: The impossibility of economic calculation without a market economy was debated throughout the 20th century. Many brilliant minds in communist countries tried to solve it, but never could. It is not a 'dumb question'!!
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People seriously need to stop posting hours of videos and saying; watch it, it's free. Guess what, time isn't free. Neither is attention. You're asking people to spend hours of their time but you can't be bothered to distill the main points to a post that can be read in 10-15 minutes?
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Go to a website and request an item? Alright, how do you prevent someone from bruteforcing the website or service to make hundreds of malicious demands?
Transparcny, the system is reactive, Value shifts, Lack of incentive to perform such an act.
And after all that i still belive this could happen either by accident or a prank who knows not hard to prepare it for that kind of scenario.
So are you actually going to produce any fact based evidence?
I have done this several times, in other forums. I even created a thread myself but the admins closed my thread where i started to upload alot of materials. This is what i was able to upload in the 2 hours before it got closed..
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340572
Here is my claim to get it reopened.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340818
You should not contact or bother any admin directly but if you want more answers im sure you could strength my reasoning for having it reopened in the website feedback thread. You dont have to agree with me to do that.
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On May 30 2012 05:07 DeliCiousVP wrote:Show nested quote +Go to a website and request an item? Alright, how do you prevent someone from bruteforcing the website or service to make hundreds of malicious demands? Transparcny, the system is reactive, Value shifts, Lack of incentive to perform such an act. And after all that i still belive this could happen either by accident or a prank who knows not hard to prepare it for that kind of scenario.
That first sentence confused me, what exactly do you mean by transparency, reactive system ( obviously, I'd hate to have an unreactive system that's in charge of keeping me fed ) value shifts and lack of incentive to perform such an act.
If it isn't hard to prepare for such an attack, how would you though? Do you have a back up system that deals with the distribution? I am honestly interested in your answer, because after all, it is lifes of people we would be talking about.
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EPT
