You are missing my point though. The world is aware of its problems and is already working to resolve them. So why change to an unproven and untested RBE system? Seems like a wasteful distraction..
Because most of the problems is due to the monetary system and the values they enforce. Many of these problems cannot be solved in a monetary system. RBE is the best alternative we have to a monetary system and is no doubt the next form of "governance" we will use. Because lets face it non of us are free we are only better of due to the technology we have today.
And if you dont belive that leave your wallet at home and try and be free see what standard of living you will have and how far you will get.
Wrong. Monetary system is the result of our natural value systems, not the other way around.
And, if you think it is fair to say that monetary system is the source of the problems, then it is just as fair to say that monetary system is the source of all our technological solutions, because it is in fact technological solutions to already existing problems that created new problems.
Could you describe what you call a "natural value systems" ? Because I don't see what you are referring to. I also don't think that the monetary system is the source of "the problems" but it has its consequences (corruption, greed, profit, individualism etc...). I think that's what he meant.
We derive large portions of our value system from our genetic make-up. Values provide motivation for our action, human natural values are those that were more or less the most effective ones for the survival of our species back when evolution guided our development (pre-historic times obviously,) since then we have created civilization in which we no longer genetically adapt to our changing environment as we are able to control it to a large extent.
The typical hyper-liberal or utopian viewpoint is that, humans can be molded into anything, and it's our institutions that are at fault for making us who we are, and if that the institutions were right, then there'd be nothing that would give us any problems. It ignores the fact that our deepest motivations such as individualism, competitiveness, our disproportionate love and compassion towards our relatives as opposed to towards strangers are hard-coded, what makes us human in the first place and is very possible what allowed us to even get to this point as a species today. One can argue that the world we now live in grotesquely distorts these instincts into terrible human traits, however the truth is that it's these instincts that allowed us to build the world that we live in today, you can't have your cake and eat it too, there's a reason why we're not a hive-minded species working for the "greater good."
All utopian style philosophies want to somehow convert people to this way of thinking, not realizing that this conversion isn't actually possible. We're not ants, or bees, we don't live in hives with a single purpose in mind, everyone being absolutely content to do their job of serving the queen so that she could reproduce, it's not how humanity works.
Our values are learnt, they aren't given by our genetic make-up, where did you get that? "Deepest motivations, individualism, competitiveness?" Where did you get that as well? They aren't my deepest motivations or root motivations for sure. I am not gonna talk for others, but i can show you tons of ppl that aren't driven by those things. It seems that you don't believe in the fact that ppl could just all live with a common goal, and unless you do, I understand your statement. But having a common goal doesn't mean it is the only goal ppl can have, and doesn't mean we have to live like bees. On top of that we aren't anymore in that state of survival where we have to hunt to gather food. To me this society is reaching a critical point where we cannot maintain our old value system with the technological understanding we have of the world. We are obviously in a transition period and sooner or later, individualism, competitiveness and all those outdated values will be history. And if not, human race will die off because of its inability to adapt. One thing is sure for me, we cannot sustain living this way, and it will take more than a solar panel, laws, monetary reform, to make it, we have to change the way we think. It's called, the transformation of the mind. It is possible. I truly believe in it and I don't think I am being an utopist for I am not expecting anything of this world and therefore can't predict the outcome. But as a human being, I know that you can change the way we think to that level.
I liked the video a lot, not for the solutions offered, but for the state of mind. I can relate a lot with this man. Growing up I questioned everything, and caught a lot of crap for it. Having this tendency to question everything led me to a similar conclusion. Most people live there lives completely blind to truth, and are full of shit but don't realize it. They believe the lies they are fed, they also believe their own lies and justifications. These are some of the most obvious ways I've learned to know when people are full of shit.
1. They don't argue the merit or the points made, they instead attack the person making the arguments and points. (politicians do this almost every time they speak!) 2. When talking about complex systems, technology or functionality they brush over the most important parts. The most technical aspect of how something functions is almost ignored. They don't answer the how, only the what and the why. 3. They make justifications. For something that is plainly wrong they will backtrack and attempt to give you the setting, that is, the environment of the situation. Instead of just acknowledging the wrong or the mistake and the incompetence or ignorance that led to it. 4. They scapegoat. 9 out of 10 times (number is totally made up) when a person is pointing the finger, they are guilty too. 5. Their emotional reaction > their logic. Children are ruled by emotions, but mature and sane adults should be ruled by their logic. 6. The story changes over time when it's re-told. Cops use this when interrogating suspects,to weed out lies. That's why they make you repeat the story over and over in a long interrogation. It's also why many criminals (who wear suits) will lawyer up immediately, because they know they will slip up somewhere if they keep repeating the details.
Most of these you probably know already, but you may not have put them into clearly defined terms. You just listen to people talk and instinctively know they are full of shit, at least that's usually how it is for me. The next time you listen to a speech by any so called "leader" in society, whether it's a ceo of a company, a politician, or some activist. They will often cover most of these "tells". Essentially telling you "they are full of shit"
Go to a website and request an item? Alright, how do you prevent someone from bruteforcing the website or service to make hundreds of malicious demands?
Transparcny, the system is reactive, Value shifts, Lack of incentive to perform such an act. And after all that i still belive this could happen either by accident or a prank who knows not hard to prepare it for that kind of scenario.
So are you actually going to produce any fact based evidence?
I have done this several times, in other forums. I even created a thread myself but the admins closed my thread where i started to upload alot of materials. This is what i was able to upload in the 2 hours before it got closed..
You should not contact or bother any admin directly but if you want more answers im sure you could strength my reasoning for having it reopened in the website feedback thread. You dont have to agree with me to do that.
Facts that can be proven using unbiased sources. All you have done thus far is post propaganda videos. This is like me getting into an argument with a religious person and asking them to produce factual evidence and all they can do is say "Well my holy book says it, so it must be true". Sorry I don't consider unbiased parties with a vested interest and no proven concepts as "evidence".
On April 20 2012 22:19 Dr.Lettuce wrote: I see this posted on my facebook quite a bit.
Jeesus christ, I truly hope people don't believe in this venus project.
This is the most unsustainable unrealistic economy I've ever seen. Look at the models they've created, how on earth is that a feasible way to live? It's incredibly inefficient. It absolutely cripples any sense of incentive to work above average or for personal reasons. I admire the idea of parts of a collectivized state, but this really isn't feasible.
Additionally, whilst the current system is under justified scrutiny, I find it laughable that anyone who believes in this system stumbles at this question. 'Can you tell me any problems under the venus project resource based economy that will occur?' Always draws a blank- because people that believe in this system do not understand economics. Period. I'm sorry to be that arrogant, but stuff like this pisses me off.
We should be spending more time/effort in to re-vamping the current system. Massive changes are needed, and focus and effort should be put there. Not theorycrafting pointless impossible economic models to follow.
Zeitgeist is just as stupid.
Come on people, tell me I'm a corporate blind puppet that listens to the mans propaganda. Yawn.
Your a corporate blind puppet that listens to the mans propaganda.
At least spell you're properly
Do you know what these are?
................................................
Little ants?
No.
You can use them to finish sentences! WOOOOOW. HOW?!
YOUR gonna have to figure that out all by yourself!
One benefit the RBE claims to have is greater efficiency than a capitalistic money based system. But what do we mean by 'efficiency'?
Let's take the example of a car. To be efficient the car needs to get good gas mileage. We can increase its efficiency by raising its gas mileage in a number of ways. But this may not make the car more economically efficient.
What's the difference? Let’s say we want to increase fuel efficiency without making the car worse in the eyes of the consumer. An easy way to do this is to reduce weight. We can change steel parts to aluminum or carbon fiber and greatly reduce weight without making the car worse in any notable way. So, an engineer in this example could rightly say that he has increased the car's efficiency by switching to lighter parts.
But is it economic? To answer that we would need some way to measure what is more important - the resources saved in the future through reduced gas consumption vs the change in resources used in the car's construction. It is well-known in a market economy how this is determined. An automaker makes the change, notes added costs and passes those costs onto the consumer who then determines if the added cost of the car is worth the cost savings in gas.
But how is that determined in a RBE? How does a RBE compare the cost of changing from using steel to aluminum and retooling equipment to the benefits of greater gas mileage? What math will the RBE do to rationally make a decision? It is absolutely important to be able to make that calculation. Otherwise decisions will be made through complete speculation (no rational ex-ante judgment) with no ex-post opportunity to see if the decision was good or bad.
If it isn't hard to prepare for such an attack, how would you though? Do you have a back up system that deals with the distribution? I am honestly interested in your answer, because after all, it is lifes of people we would be talking about.
I dont know my speciality isent in the area nor do i have the courage to speculate what a backup system for a process like that is. But i dont think that will be a hard problem to solve for the collective mind of 7-10 billion people.
The question what is a backup to that system? is a go around question that can go what is the backup to the backup? and continue on its a negative because the question isent proven to exist yet.
I can tell you this tho the society is built to withstand catastrophes escpially natural ones, So dont go around with the notion that you would starve to death. Food is grown localy.
One benefit the RBE claims to have is greater efficiency than a capitalistic money based system. But what do we mean by 'efficiency'?
Let's take the example of a car. To be efficient the car needs to get good gas mileage. We can increase its efficiency by raising its gas mileage in a number of ways. But this may not make the car more economically efficient.
Produce more using automation, Conserve more by creating products that have their potential maximized to fit use they were intended for. Have a few things built in. Recyclable to the max, Interchangable parts easily to update.
Once the product becomes obsolete to you if you desire to own it,You can just recycle the material used to make it and go get a new updated one thus conserving resources.
Today we crank out products that are inferior,designed to break down in time and unrecyclable in general. New iphone every year. New computer every second or third you think it all gets recycled? Because we need to make more and more profits every year like you guiys pointed out over and over again we need to consume MORE need to waste MORE need to pollute MORE need to exploit MORE GDP rises while we destroy out planet.
Time to wake up guys because truth is.. Non of you guys really know how our monetary system works. At least you have freedom tho who are you voting for? papper plastic?
Extra hilariousness in people thinking that distribution or food/water would suddenly fail without what we have in place right now. The cars and trucks are still here aren't they? What you think people who are facing STARVATION and DEHYDRATION on a massive scale wouldn't figure out a way to use all resources to get those things back into their lives?
What we're on is a large-scale corporate-dominant fake capitalistic type of economy. You're free do start your own companies but the larger ones can at any point decide to completely strip you of your market and your sources for land, distribution, raw materials. This sort of economy is not free at all. This is especially apparent in Wall Street where stock prices largely depend on if you have investors holding the stock up and vouching for its price. Currency being used in its current form does not work and we're seeing its effects globally.
Some might try to say that such a stance makes me "ignorant" or that I'm ignoring such prosperous countries in this day and age. I would argue that countries are all part of the world and the world as a whole is falling into poverty and despair. Greece is just the first of many that will fall in Europe. This will create a massive depression for a short time. All orchestrated by the money changers. The fall of the Euro will usher in a new era for the other currencies to gain short prosperity until the World Currency takes over.
I like what TVP has to offer but I think its got a long ways to go before people are able to buy into the new doctrine of freedom. They are used to slavery and bowing down to their corporate and administrative masters and sadly, a lot of them actually LIKE it because they have been taught that this is freedom and the world exists in equality. These sorts of people will not be swayed until a large-scale colony or nation is founded that is independent of the money changers' influence (damn near impossible) and sustains itself for a long time (i.e without letting the m-c's corrupt or trod on it).
What we're on is a large-scale corporate-dominant fake capitalistic type of economy. You're free do start your own companies but the larger ones can at any point decide to completely strip you of your market and your sources for land, distribution, raw materials.
This sort of economy is not free at all. This is especially apparent in Wall Street where stock prices largely depend on if you have investors holding the stock up and vouching for its price. Currency being used in its current form does not work and we're seeing its effects globally.
That is a person who have an basic insight in how our world operates if you belive the opposite of this you are truly naive. Because lets face it you were the CEO how far would you go?
One benefit the RBE claims to have is greater efficiency than a capitalistic money based system. But what do we mean by 'efficiency'?
Let's take the example of a car. To be efficient the car needs to get good gas mileage. We can increase its efficiency by raising its gas mileage in a number of ways. But this may not make the car more economically efficient.
Produce more using automation, Conserve more by creating products that have their potential maximized to fit use they were intended for. Have a few things built in. Recyclable to the max, Interchangable parts easily to update.
Once the product becomes obsolete to you if you desire to own it,You can just recycle the material used to make it and go get a new updated one thus conserving resources.
Today we crank out products that are inferior,designed to break down in time and unrecyclable in general. New iphone every year. New computer every second or third you think it all gets recycled? Because we need to make more and more profits every year like you guiys pointed out over and over again we need to consume MORE need to waste MORE need to pollute MORE need to exploit MORE GDP rises while we destroy out planet.
Time to wake up guys because truth is.. Non of you guys really know how our monetary system works. At least you have freedom tho who are you voting for? papper plastic?
Thank you for proving my point. You intend to just 'guess' that the changes you make will be more efficient.
So no thanks, the RBE is not for me. I choose to continue to live in a rational world where facts rule rather than a world governed by guesswork and emotional hysteria. Feel free to continue to support The Venus Project - what you do with your money is not my concern. If they ever manage to build their test city and theme park (after they've made their movies) feel free to move and live there too. As always, the world outside will continue to exist and when your dreams of communism fail (as they always do) we'll be here, ready to send food aid as we always have before. All I ask is that you do not repeat the mistakes of your predecessors and allow for the aid to be sent to you - no matter how much it may hurt your pride.
I think they'd rather have food, shelter and be safe from tyrants.
None of which they will receive by simply employing the magic silver bullet of 'make everything free.'
Your ignorance kills, How many more people will have to die before you recognize that all people need the nessceties of life without a pricetag.
What purchasing power do you think a swollen baby orphan have? Clueless,fanatic,naive with a gift for rhetorical specch the absolute worst combination shared by many through the ages.
I think they'd rather have food, shelter and be safe from tyrants.
I think they'd rather have food, shelter and be safe from tyrants.
None of which they will receive by simply employing the magic silver bullet of 'make everything free.'
Your ignorance kills, How many more people will have to die before you recognize that all people need the nessceties of life without a pricetag.
What purchasing power do you think a swollen baby orphan have? Clueless,fanatic,naive with a gift for rhetorical specch the absolute worst combination shared by many through the ages.
I think they'd rather have food, shelter and be safe from tyrants. Indeed
btw. people actually understand the monetary system (its not that complex). Just because you and your friends don't it doesn't apply to the world (and you clearly do not understand it, based on how you argue).
Regarding poverty. It's largely allocation failures combined with well tough luck regarding history, current institution, partly environment etc. It's far from perfect, but it's not an inherent capitalist failure. Capitalism can easily work without anyone living in poverty (funny enough it gets easier with advanced technologies, but we don't need RBE for it...)
GIVE GIVE AS IN FREE? as in provide? as in offer without demands?as in provide access to the resources? Maybe your not hopeless just not there yet.
What's easier?
1) RBE, everything is free, global economic system is completely changed. Risk: Global economic collapse, mass starvation (as has happened before in history)
2) Food aid is increased and changed from food to money. Risk: Some developed world farms will go bankrupt (small % of economy, easy to manage).
If you really want to help people you help them instead of wasting time pushing your political agenda (anarchist communism).
2) Food aid is increased and changed from food to money. Risk: Some developed world farms will go bankrupt (small % of economy, easy to manage).
WHERE IS MY PROFIT? What do i gain! Feed 1 billion Let see what my investors say. Exploit starving people? PROFIT!
Pay out insurance for cancer? HIRE DOCTOR TO DENIE PEOPLE Their insurance= PROFIT!
GDP Rise! Look dont you see it? do you see it yet? do you see the connecition? WEALTH GENERATED OH YEAH!
1) RBE, everything is free, global economic system is completely changed. Risk: Global economic collapse, mass starvation (as has happened before in history)
I thought this never been tested before i guess we had mass desalitationplants hydronponics and machines 3D printing technologies social concern over personal concern, in the past. weird what reality are you from?
Risk: Global economic collapse? = Rephrasing Global monetary anti-economy collapse? You betcha. Mass starvation ?How you have seen the plans/math and technoligies used, get real.
EPT
