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On April 22 2012 03:08 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 02:45 Etrnity wrote:On April 22 2012 02:40 koreasilver wrote:On April 22 2012 02:09 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:57 Etrnity wrote:On April 22 2012 01:39 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:31 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:27 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:20 koreasilver wrote:I really have no opinions on Romney's "real" beliefs but a "nonbeliever" becoming a clergyman isn't as uncommon as people seem to think. In Romney's case it would surprise me even less because of his family's standings within the Mormon church. I don't believe anyone could do these things, along with the things I mentioned earlier (tithing, baptism) without actually having faith. We are still talking about politicians, right? In the LDS church, a 'nonbeliever' becoming a bishop is unheard of. Period. It can't happen unless you've been ordained with the melchezedek priesthood, which you get several years after getting the Aaronic priesthood. You can't be in that position without being an active and faithful member for decades. Yes, we are still talking about politicians. If you read back the last 2-3 or pages, you'll see that myself and others are concerned about having the country run by somebody who we feel has a fragile grip on reality. Have you seen any of Romney's policies or his programs? None of them are Mormonized or anything like that. If you want to use Mormonism as an excuse not to vote for him, you need to provide some substanial reasoning; because "he's a Mormon" just makes you sound like some evangelical redneck. The mormon church is homophobic, sexist, and racist. I believe Romney will carry these traits to the presidency. Homophobia - The LDS church donates millions in support of California's prop 8, an anti-gay marriage bill. Sexist - Women cannot hold the priesthood, or any position of authority in the church. The church embraced polygamy until it became clear that they could not achieve statehood, at which time the prophet had a revelation that God told him that polygamy was now bad. Joseph Smith, the church's founder, married one of his wives when she was 13. Racism - Blacks could not hold the priesthood until 1978, which also meant they couldn't be married and sealed in the temple, or ever go to the highest kingdom of heaven with the other mormons. I don't like homophobic, racist, and sexist people. I don't want one of them as our president. Mormonism is a big deal. Obama is called a Christian, but he doesn't keep to the beliefs of the faith... So religion is always followed by a president, instead of it being just a title?....sure If you read my posts in the last few pages, I give some examples of things an active LDS member must do in order to be considered mormon. In short, its not something you can really fake. Most Christian religions, on the other hand, are pretty easy to affiliate with with minimal effort. Like the poster above says, I believe Obama's stated religious beliefs are nothing more than a necessity to be elected. JKF could come back from the dead, but if he said he was atheist, he ain't getting elected. Besides the fact that Obama actually has some intimate knowledge and understanding of some theologies and has some connection with liberation theology, right? His connection with Christianity is a lot stronger than what someone would do to just put an appearance. Obama is probably a more honestly practicing Christian than most of the GOP runners of the past year, and he could probably sustain an actual academic dialogue with theologians better than every GOP runner. Christianity doesn't have to do with social justice, nor helping the poor. A thorough reading of the Bible would tell you that. Justice is a term reserved to God, not for man to engage in, and the Bible calls Christians to help other Christians, no where does it say to help non-secularists. We are to go out and let the light of the Lord shine, but not to give aid to those that turn their hearts from the Heavens. When Christ speaks of the poor and the young, never does he qualify his statement by saying "only the chosen". Jesus gave the bread both to the "children" and the "dogs". If the final hand of justice truly is at the hand of God, then you too, then are in no position to judge those outside of the church. That right is in God alone. Futhermore, if philosophy and theology are to be separate, as both the neo-orthodoxy and the philosophers have argued for, then there is always to be a secular space so that deference can be given to both. What both the fundamentalists and the liberal Protestants don't seem to understand is that the separation is necessary for both. edit: I don't even understand the point of your entire post as a reply to mine. Liberation theology is still rooted within a Christian context.
Your misunderstanding is enormous. The only contexts of the Beloved giving are in the Church. Christ's giving was to show that he was the Son of Man (feeding the 5000 etc.). Justice is not for us to decide, justice is defined by God, there is no debating this. You also misunderstand the difference between chosen and Beloved. Chosen is all, Beloved are those that accept and follow. Take a look at the sending out of the Twelve Disciples, that should shed light on your misconceptions. The liberal protestants also believe that homosexuality is an ok thing by scripture, they are irrelevant to provide that liberation theology is ok.
EDIT: I misread, I was thinking liberal presbyterian, you are correct in the statement of liberal Protestants. My argument to this is that there is no philosophy without theology, as I believe at the root of philosophy there can only be one truth (Law of Noncontradiction), and to me that truth is based in the theology of the Word. Apologies for the misreading. Good argument.
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On April 22 2012 06:03 tso wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 06:00 Etrnity wrote:On April 22 2012 02:51 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 02:45 Etrnity wrote:On April 22 2012 02:40 koreasilver wrote:On April 22 2012 02:09 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:57 Etrnity wrote:On April 22 2012 01:39 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:31 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:27 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
[quote]
In the LDS church, a 'nonbeliever' becoming a bishop is unheard of. Period. It can't happen unless you've been ordained with the melchezedek priesthood, which you get several years after getting the Aaronic priesthood. You can't be in that position without being an active and faithful member for decades.
Yes, we are still talking about politicians. If you read back the last 2-3 or pages, you'll see that myself and others are concerned about having the country run by somebody who we feel has a fragile grip on reality. Have you seen any of Romney's policies or his programs? None of them are Mormonized or anything like that. If you want to use Mormonism as an excuse not to vote for him, you need to provide some substanial reasoning; because "he's a Mormon" just makes you sound like some evangelical redneck. The mormon church is homophobic, sexist, and racist. I believe Romney will carry these traits to the presidency. Homophobia - The LDS church donates millions in support of California's prop 8, an anti-gay marriage bill. Sexist - Women cannot hold the priesthood, or any position of authority in the church. The church embraced polygamy until it became clear that they could not achieve statehood, at which time the prophet had a revelation that God told him that polygamy was now bad. Joseph Smith, the church's founder, married one of his wives when she was 13. Racism - Blacks could not hold the priesthood until 1978, which also meant they couldn't be married and sealed in the temple, or ever go to the highest kingdom of heaven with the other mormons. I don't like homophobic, racist, and sexist people. I don't want one of them as our president. Mormonism is a big deal. Obama is called a Christian, but he doesn't keep to the beliefs of the faith... So religion is always followed by a president, instead of it being just a title?....sure If you read my posts in the last few pages, I give some examples of things an active LDS member must do in order to be considered mormon. In short, its not something you can really fake. Most Christian religions, on the other hand, are pretty easy to affiliate with with minimal effort. Like the poster above says, I believe Obama's stated religious beliefs are nothing more than a necessity to be elected. JKF could come back from the dead, but if he said he was atheist, he ain't getting elected. Besides the fact that Obama actually has some intimate knowledge and understanding of some theologies and has some connection with liberation theology, right? His connection with Christianity is a lot stronger than what someone would do to just put an appearance. Obama is probably a more honestly practicing Christian than most of the GOP runners of the past year, and he could probably sustain an actual academic dialogue with theologians better than every GOP runner. Christianity doesn't have to do with social justice, nor helping the poor. A thorough reading of the Bible would tell you that. Justice is a term reserved to God, not for man to engage in, and the Bible calls Christians to help other Christians, no where does it say to help non-secularists. We are to go out and let the light of the Lord shine, but not to give aid to those that turn their hearts from the Heavens. There. Proof that God loves everybody. Unless you're not Christian. You clearly don't understand what God's love means. He clearly states that he loves all, Beloved and sinners (we are all sinners). He does not call his Beloved to give aid to those that turn their hearts away. Stop being an idiot. eternal torture is love
Wrong again. Eternity in hell is something that people desire that refuse to give up their own pride and accept that the only path is through Christ, that they are fallen sinners, and that they are willing to give up their life for eternal salvation so that we may be in Heaven praising the Father. Hell is a choice, not just a sentence. Those in hell do not want to be in Heaven, guaranteed.
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Idiots will vote for both candidates. There are stupid Democrats and stupid Republicans both, and to be honest all that we should care about is why you support someone, not that you support someone. Really some of the pointless arguments that come across in every political oriented thread are disturbing to me, it's always either vague remarks (like the ones I'm making) or generalizations (like the ones I'm making) and it serves only to divide the two parties when really there's not a huge difference between a democrat and a republican.
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On April 22 2012 06:07 Etrnity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 06:03 tso wrote:On April 22 2012 06:00 Etrnity wrote:On April 22 2012 02:51 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 02:45 Etrnity wrote:On April 22 2012 02:40 koreasilver wrote:On April 22 2012 02:09 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:57 Etrnity wrote:On April 22 2012 01:39 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:31 1Eris1 wrote:
[quote]
Have you seen any of Romney's policies or his programs? None of them are Mormonized or anything like that. If you want to use Mormonism as an excuse not to vote for him, you need to provide some substanial reasoning; because "he's a Mormon" just makes you sound like some evangelical redneck. The mormon church is homophobic, sexist, and racist. I believe Romney will carry these traits to the presidency. Homophobia - The LDS church donates millions in support of California's prop 8, an anti-gay marriage bill. Sexist - Women cannot hold the priesthood, or any position of authority in the church. The church embraced polygamy until it became clear that they could not achieve statehood, at which time the prophet had a revelation that God told him that polygamy was now bad. Joseph Smith, the church's founder, married one of his wives when she was 13. Racism - Blacks could not hold the priesthood until 1978, which also meant they couldn't be married and sealed in the temple, or ever go to the highest kingdom of heaven with the other mormons. I don't like homophobic, racist, and sexist people. I don't want one of them as our president. Mormonism is a big deal. Obama is called a Christian, but he doesn't keep to the beliefs of the faith... So religion is always followed by a president, instead of it being just a title?....sure If you read my posts in the last few pages, I give some examples of things an active LDS member must do in order to be considered mormon. In short, its not something you can really fake. Most Christian religions, on the other hand, are pretty easy to affiliate with with minimal effort. Like the poster above says, I believe Obama's stated religious beliefs are nothing more than a necessity to be elected. JKF could come back from the dead, but if he said he was atheist, he ain't getting elected. Besides the fact that Obama actually has some intimate knowledge and understanding of some theologies and has some connection with liberation theology, right? His connection with Christianity is a lot stronger than what someone would do to just put an appearance. Obama is probably a more honestly practicing Christian than most of the GOP runners of the past year, and he could probably sustain an actual academic dialogue with theologians better than every GOP runner. Christianity doesn't have to do with social justice, nor helping the poor. A thorough reading of the Bible would tell you that. Justice is a term reserved to God, not for man to engage in, and the Bible calls Christians to help other Christians, no where does it say to help non-secularists. We are to go out and let the light of the Lord shine, but not to give aid to those that turn their hearts from the Heavens. There. Proof that God loves everybody. Unless you're not Christian. You clearly don't understand what God's love means. He clearly states that he loves all, Beloved and sinners (we are all sinners). He does not call his Beloved to give aid to those that turn their hearts away. Stop being an idiot. eternal torture is love Wrong again. Eternity in hell is something that people desire that refuse to give up their own pride and accept that the only path is through Christ, that they are fallen sinners, and that they are willing to give up their life for eternal salvation so that we may be in Heaven praising the Father. Hell is a choice, not just a sentence. Those in hell do not want to be in Heaven, guaranteed.
"my husband beats me because i want to leave him, and he understands better than I do that I love him still"
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As a side note, I'm done with apologetics here. If you want to debate me, send me a PM.
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Etrnity is a troll. Feed him at your own risk.
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On April 22 2012 03:14 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 03:00 frogrubdown wrote:On April 22 2012 02:20 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 02:08 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:56 Zoesan wrote:On April 22 2012 01:45 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:39 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:31 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:27 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:20 koreasilver wrote:
I really have no opinions on Romney's "real" beliefs but a "nonbeliever" becoming a clergyman isn't as uncommon as people seem to think. In Romney's case it would surprise me even less because of his family's standings within the Mormon church.
[quote]
We are still talking about politicians, right? In the LDS church, a 'nonbeliever' becoming a bishop is unheard of. Period. It can't happen unless you've been ordained with the melchezedek priesthood, which you get several years after getting the Aaronic priesthood. You can't be in that position without being an active and faithful member for decades. Yes, we are still talking about politicians. If you read back the last 2-3 or pages, you'll see that myself and others are concerned about having the country run by somebody who we feel has a fragile grip on reality. Have you seen any of Romney's policies or his programs? None of them are Mormonized or anything like that. If you want to use Mormonism as an excuse not to vote for him, you need to provide some substanial reasoning; because "he's a Mormon" just makes you sound like some evangelical redneck. The mormon church is homophobic, sexist, and racist. I believe Romney will carry these traits to the presidency. Homophobia - The LDS church donates millions in support of California's prop 8, an anti-gay marriage bill. Sexist - Women cannot hold the priesthood, or any position of authority in the church. The church embraced polygamy until it became clear that they could not achieve statehood, at which time the prophet had a revelation that God told him that polygamy was now bad. Joseph Smith, the church's founder, married one of his wives when she was 13. Racism - Blacks could not hold the priesthood until 1978, which also meant they couldn't be married and sealed in the temple, or ever go to the highest kingdom of heaven with the other mormons. I don't like homophobic, racist, and sexist people. I don't want one of them as our president. Mormonism is a big deal. And has Romney said that blacks and women cannot hold positions of power? Is Romney married to a 13 year old? No he's not. The only one of these you could make a legitimate claim about is him being against gay marriage, (I don't think he donated specifically to block Prop 8 though), and that's fine...but wait...Obama is also against gay marriage. On April 22 2012 01:45 Zoesan wrote:On April 22 2012 01:31 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:27 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:20 koreasilver wrote:
I really have no opinions on Romney's "real" beliefs but a "nonbeliever" becoming a clergyman isn't as uncommon as people seem to think. In Romney's case it would surprise me even less because of his family's standings within the Mormon church.
[quote]
We are still talking about politicians, right? In the LDS church, a 'nonbeliever' becoming a bishop is unheard of. Period. It can't happen unless you've been ordained with the melchezedek priesthood, which you get several years after getting the Aaronic priesthood. You can't be in that position without being an active and faithful member for decades. Yes, we are still talking about politicians. If you read back the last 2-3 or pages, you'll see that myself and others are concerned about having the country run by somebody who we feel has a fragile grip on reality. Have you seen any of Romney's policies or his programs? None of them are Mormonized or anything like that. If you want to use Mormonism as an excuse not to vote for him, you need to provide some substanial reasoning; because "he's a Mormon" just makes you sound like some evangelical redneck. No, I just think that anyone faithful to mormonism has serious problems making logical decisions and seriously impaired judgment. Thus I don't want that person to become the most powerful man in the world. Make sense now? Can you provide examples of his bad decisions and impaired judgement? Because that's what I'm asking. If he really does these things then you should be listing them and explaining why they are bad. Instead you're just tying in Mormonism as illogical, without showing how Romney has been illogical, or how Mormonism has lead him to those actions. No I can't. I'm afraid for what's to come, because every candidate makes sure that people like him before the vote, that doesn't stop them from doing retarded things once elected (hi bush). Thus: I distrust him because in my experience any person belonging to something as weird as mormonism (and I know quite a few) to be lacking a couple of marbles. edit: on second thought, there are a couple of things where I facepalmed IRL, but I can't really remember what they were. If I find them I'll post them here. Why didn't he do things when he was Governor of Massachusetts then? Or is this some mass mormon conspiracy to get one of them elected so they can turn the country towards new zionism? You do realize that the president doesn't pass laws right? If he proposes some "crazy mormon idea" then the liberals and the conservatives are just going to strike it down and he's going to look like an idiot. (Because a majority of them are protestant/catholic, and they don't want to alienate their bases.) On April 22 2012 01:49 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:45 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:39 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:31 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:27 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:20 koreasilver wrote:
I really have no opinions on Romney's "real" beliefs but a "nonbeliever" becoming a clergyman isn't as uncommon as people seem to think. In Romney's case it would surprise me even less because of his family's standings within the Mormon church.
[quote]
We are still talking about politicians, right? In the LDS church, a 'nonbeliever' becoming a bishop is unheard of. Period. It can't happen unless you've been ordained with the melchezedek priesthood, which you get several years after getting the Aaronic priesthood. You can't be in that position without being an active and faithful member for decades. Yes, we are still talking about politicians. If you read back the last 2-3 or pages, you'll see that myself and others are concerned about having the country run by somebody who we feel has a fragile grip on reality. Have you seen any of Romney's policies or his programs? None of them are Mormonized or anything like that. If you want to use Mormonism as an excuse not to vote for him, you need to provide some substanial reasoning; because "he's a Mormon" just makes you sound like some evangelical redneck. The mormon church is homophobic, sexist, and racist. I believe Romney will carry these traits to the presidency. Homophobia - The LDS church donates millions in support of California's prop 8, an anti-gay marriage bill. Sexist - Women cannot hold the priesthood, or any position of authority in the church. The church embraced polygamy until it became clear that they could not achieve statehood, at which time the prophet had a revelation that God told him that polygamy was now bad. Joseph Smith, the church's founder, married one of his wives when she was 13. Racism - Blacks could not hold the priesthood until 1978, which also meant they couldn't be married and sealed in the temple, or ever go to the highest kingdom of heaven with the other mormons. I don't like homophobic, racist, and sexist people. I don't want one of them as our president. Mormonism is a big deal. And has Romney said that blacks and women cannot hold positions of power? Is Romney married to a 13 year old? No he's not. The only one of these you could make a legitimate claim about is him being against gay marriage, (I don't think he donated specifically to block Prop 8 though), and that's fine...but wait...Obama is also against gay marriage. He's a grown man, who makes his own decisions, and he chooses to be a prominent member of an organization that I find immoral, for the reasons I stated earlier. So you care more about a persons religious preference then their policies or ideas? I'm sorry but that just sounds like a really weak excuse. You're ignoring me, but I'll say it again. Mitt Romney chooses to lead his life as an active and prominent member of the LDS church. I believe the LDS church is immoral, and I believe its immoral to be an active and willing supporter of what they do. I believe his stance on issues will reflect those of the LDS church. Therefore, I don't want him to be president. What issues you ask? -Immigration -Women's choice -Gay marriage There's a start to the list. I don't understand your point. It's not like Romney publicly expresses the right views on these issues with you suspecting that that is just a ploy to disguise his real, Mormon positions. He is open about exactly where he stands on them, and it is roughly the same place as most of the rest of his party (if not slightly better). So why do you even have to consider his Mormonism instead of just looking directly to his views? I think both sides of this argument are talking about different things. People who feel it isnt an issue are basically saying that his relationship to God is irrelevant since it has not shown up excessively in his policies. People who are saying it is an issue are not talking about that relationship at all but instead about his relationship with other Mormons who are known as largely invested in a literal interpretation of scripture and ecclesiastic hierarchy. Basically the real question is, do personal associations matter?
Personal associations don't matter. Obama proved that with the whole Jeremiah White preacher controversy.
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On April 22 2012 03:33 storkfan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 02:30 PlaGuE_R wrote:On April 19 2012 18:24 murphs wrote:
Dear America,
Vote Obama.
Sincerely,
Rest of the fucking world. Agreed, from France  Dear murphs and Plague, SPEAK FOR YOURSELF. Sincerely, America.
They were pretty much right. Most of the world outside of the US wants Obama to win.
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On April 22 2012 06:15 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Etrnity is a troll. Feed him at your own risk.
I'm not trolling at all. Again, I welcome PMs. This is not a forum for Christian apologetics, nor is this debate welcomed by the TL staff. If you want to debate Christianity, send me a PM. I want to respect the moderation staffs wishes as this is their private domain.
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On April 22 2012 06:05 Etrnity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 03:08 koreasilver wrote:On April 22 2012 02:45 Etrnity wrote:On April 22 2012 02:40 koreasilver wrote:On April 22 2012 02:09 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:57 Etrnity wrote:On April 22 2012 01:39 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:31 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:27 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:20 koreasilver wrote:
I really have no opinions on Romney's "real" beliefs but a "nonbeliever" becoming a clergyman isn't as uncommon as people seem to think. In Romney's case it would surprise me even less because of his family's standings within the Mormon church.
[quote]
We are still talking about politicians, right? In the LDS church, a 'nonbeliever' becoming a bishop is unheard of. Period. It can't happen unless you've been ordained with the melchezedek priesthood, which you get several years after getting the Aaronic priesthood. You can't be in that position without being an active and faithful member for decades. Yes, we are still talking about politicians. If you read back the last 2-3 or pages, you'll see that myself and others are concerned about having the country run by somebody who we feel has a fragile grip on reality. Have you seen any of Romney's policies or his programs? None of them are Mormonized or anything like that. If you want to use Mormonism as an excuse not to vote for him, you need to provide some substanial reasoning; because "he's a Mormon" just makes you sound like some evangelical redneck. The mormon church is homophobic, sexist, and racist. I believe Romney will carry these traits to the presidency. Homophobia - The LDS church donates millions in support of California's prop 8, an anti-gay marriage bill. Sexist - Women cannot hold the priesthood, or any position of authority in the church. The church embraced polygamy until it became clear that they could not achieve statehood, at which time the prophet had a revelation that God told him that polygamy was now bad. Joseph Smith, the church's founder, married one of his wives when she was 13. Racism - Blacks could not hold the priesthood until 1978, which also meant they couldn't be married and sealed in the temple, or ever go to the highest kingdom of heaven with the other mormons. I don't like homophobic, racist, and sexist people. I don't want one of them as our president. Mormonism is a big deal. Obama is called a Christian, but he doesn't keep to the beliefs of the faith... So religion is always followed by a president, instead of it being just a title?....sure If you read my posts in the last few pages, I give some examples of things an active LDS member must do in order to be considered mormon. In short, its not something you can really fake. Most Christian religions, on the other hand, are pretty easy to affiliate with with minimal effort. Like the poster above says, I believe Obama's stated religious beliefs are nothing more than a necessity to be elected. JKF could come back from the dead, but if he said he was atheist, he ain't getting elected. Besides the fact that Obama actually has some intimate knowledge and understanding of some theologies and has some connection with liberation theology, right? His connection with Christianity is a lot stronger than what someone would do to just put an appearance. Obama is probably a more honestly practicing Christian than most of the GOP runners of the past year, and he could probably sustain an actual academic dialogue with theologians better than every GOP runner. Christianity doesn't have to do with social justice, nor helping the poor. A thorough reading of the Bible would tell you that. Justice is a term reserved to God, not for man to engage in, and the Bible calls Christians to help other Christians, no where does it say to help non-secularists. We are to go out and let the light of the Lord shine, but not to give aid to those that turn their hearts from the Heavens. When Christ speaks of the poor and the young, never does he qualify his statement by saying "only the chosen". Jesus gave the bread both to the "children" and the "dogs". If the final hand of justice truly is at the hand of God, then you too, then are in no position to judge those outside of the church. That right is in God alone. Futhermore, if philosophy and theology are to be separate, as both the neo-orthodoxy and the philosophers have argued for, then there is always to be a secular space so that deference can be given to both. What both the fundamentalists and the liberal Protestants don't seem to understand is that the separation is necessary for both. edit: I don't even understand the point of your entire post as a reply to mine. Liberation theology is still rooted within a Christian context. Your misunderstanding is enormous. The only contexts of the Beloved giving are in the Church. Christ's giving was to show that he was the Son of Man (feeding the 5000 etc.). Justice is not for us to decide, justice is defined by God, there is no debating this. You also misunderstand the difference between chosen and Beloved. Chosen is all, Beloved are those that accept and follow. Take a look at the sending out of the Twelve Disciples, that should shed light on your misconceptions. The liberal protestants also believe that homosexuality is an ok thing by scripture, they are irrelevant to provide that liberation theology is ok.
Here, since you don't actually seem to understand some terms.
Liberal Protestantism = the theological tradition that is rooted in Schleiermacher. Questions of sexual orientation has nothing to do with this.
Liberation theology is separate.
Aside from this, there is little to discuss with you since you don't seem to understand the most basic things.
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On April 22 2012 06:05 Etrnity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 03:08 koreasilver wrote:On April 22 2012 02:45 Etrnity wrote:On April 22 2012 02:40 koreasilver wrote:On April 22 2012 02:09 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:57 Etrnity wrote:On April 22 2012 01:39 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:31 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:27 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:20 koreasilver wrote:
I really have no opinions on Romney's "real" beliefs but a "nonbeliever" becoming a clergyman isn't as uncommon as people seem to think. In Romney's case it would surprise me even less because of his family's standings within the Mormon church.
[quote]
We are still talking about politicians, right? In the LDS church, a 'nonbeliever' becoming a bishop is unheard of. Period. It can't happen unless you've been ordained with the melchezedek priesthood, which you get several years after getting the Aaronic priesthood. You can't be in that position without being an active and faithful member for decades. Yes, we are still talking about politicians. If you read back the last 2-3 or pages, you'll see that myself and others are concerned about having the country run by somebody who we feel has a fragile grip on reality. Have you seen any of Romney's policies or his programs? None of them are Mormonized or anything like that. If you want to use Mormonism as an excuse not to vote for him, you need to provide some substanial reasoning; because "he's a Mormon" just makes you sound like some evangelical redneck. The mormon church is homophobic, sexist, and racist. I believe Romney will carry these traits to the presidency. Homophobia - The LDS church donates millions in support of California's prop 8, an anti-gay marriage bill. Sexist - Women cannot hold the priesthood, or any position of authority in the church. The church embraced polygamy until it became clear that they could not achieve statehood, at which time the prophet had a revelation that God told him that polygamy was now bad. Joseph Smith, the church's founder, married one of his wives when she was 13. Racism - Blacks could not hold the priesthood until 1978, which also meant they couldn't be married and sealed in the temple, or ever go to the highest kingdom of heaven with the other mormons. I don't like homophobic, racist, and sexist people. I don't want one of them as our president. Mormonism is a big deal. Obama is called a Christian, but he doesn't keep to the beliefs of the faith... So religion is always followed by a president, instead of it being just a title?....sure If you read my posts in the last few pages, I give some examples of things an active LDS member must do in order to be considered mormon. In short, its not something you can really fake. Most Christian religions, on the other hand, are pretty easy to affiliate with with minimal effort. Like the poster above says, I believe Obama's stated religious beliefs are nothing more than a necessity to be elected. JKF could come back from the dead, but if he said he was atheist, he ain't getting elected. Besides the fact that Obama actually has some intimate knowledge and understanding of some theologies and has some connection with liberation theology, right? His connection with Christianity is a lot stronger than what someone would do to just put an appearance. Obama is probably a more honestly practicing Christian than most of the GOP runners of the past year, and he could probably sustain an actual academic dialogue with theologians better than every GOP runner. Christianity doesn't have to do with social justice, nor helping the poor. A thorough reading of the Bible would tell you that. Justice is a term reserved to God, not for man to engage in, and the Bible calls Christians to help other Christians, no where does it say to help non-secularists. We are to go out and let the light of the Lord shine, but not to give aid to those that turn their hearts from the Heavens. When Christ speaks of the poor and the young, never does he qualify his statement by saying "only the chosen". Jesus gave the bread both to the "children" and the "dogs". If the final hand of justice truly is at the hand of God, then you too, then are in no position to judge those outside of the church. That right is in God alone. Futhermore, if philosophy and theology are to be separate, as both the neo-orthodoxy and the philosophers have argued for, then there is always to be a secular space so that deference can be given to both. What both the fundamentalists and the liberal Protestants don't seem to understand is that the separation is necessary for both. edit: I don't even understand the point of your entire post as a reply to mine. Liberation theology is still rooted within a Christian context. Justice is not for us to decide, justice is defined by God, there is no debating this.
As a side note, I'm done with apologetics here. If you want to debate me, send me a PM.
Pure faf. Stop asking for PMs as if you have any interest in using your God-given ability to apply reason and logic to an earnest discussion. You just want to prosthelytize more, as you've done plenty of in this thread.
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United States13896 Posts
Warnings have been sent out. Any further discourse on religion that does not directly relate to a candidate will be dealt with summarily and bans will be handed out.
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Being British, Barack Obama is badass and therefore deserves to win, and I base my opinion on completely no facts whatsoever and just the fact that he seems a cool guy (which ironically is seldom seen since the dawn of politics)
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Please don't vote for Romney...
Please Americans...please...
That poll that is at 59% to 28% for Romney is still too high for the man of insanity...
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On April 22 2012 06:16 Serpest wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 03:14 Velocirapture wrote:On April 22 2012 03:00 frogrubdown wrote:On April 22 2012 02:20 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 02:08 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:56 Zoesan wrote:On April 22 2012 01:45 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:39 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:31 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:27 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
[quote]
In the LDS church, a 'nonbeliever' becoming a bishop is unheard of. Period. It can't happen unless you've been ordained with the melchezedek priesthood, which you get several years after getting the Aaronic priesthood. You can't be in that position without being an active and faithful member for decades.
Yes, we are still talking about politicians. If you read back the last 2-3 or pages, you'll see that myself and others are concerned about having the country run by somebody who we feel has a fragile grip on reality. Have you seen any of Romney's policies or his programs? None of them are Mormonized or anything like that. If you want to use Mormonism as an excuse not to vote for him, you need to provide some substanial reasoning; because "he's a Mormon" just makes you sound like some evangelical redneck. The mormon church is homophobic, sexist, and racist. I believe Romney will carry these traits to the presidency. Homophobia - The LDS church donates millions in support of California's prop 8, an anti-gay marriage bill. Sexist - Women cannot hold the priesthood, or any position of authority in the church. The church embraced polygamy until it became clear that they could not achieve statehood, at which time the prophet had a revelation that God told him that polygamy was now bad. Joseph Smith, the church's founder, married one of his wives when she was 13. Racism - Blacks could not hold the priesthood until 1978, which also meant they couldn't be married and sealed in the temple, or ever go to the highest kingdom of heaven with the other mormons. I don't like homophobic, racist, and sexist people. I don't want one of them as our president. Mormonism is a big deal. And has Romney said that blacks and women cannot hold positions of power? Is Romney married to a 13 year old? No he's not. The only one of these you could make a legitimate claim about is him being against gay marriage, (I don't think he donated specifically to block Prop 8 though), and that's fine...but wait...Obama is also against gay marriage. On April 22 2012 01:45 Zoesan wrote:On April 22 2012 01:31 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:27 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
[quote]
In the LDS church, a 'nonbeliever' becoming a bishop is unheard of. Period. It can't happen unless you've been ordained with the melchezedek priesthood, which you get several years after getting the Aaronic priesthood. You can't be in that position without being an active and faithful member for decades.
Yes, we are still talking about politicians. If you read back the last 2-3 or pages, you'll see that myself and others are concerned about having the country run by somebody who we feel has a fragile grip on reality. Have you seen any of Romney's policies or his programs? None of them are Mormonized or anything like that. If you want to use Mormonism as an excuse not to vote for him, you need to provide some substanial reasoning; because "he's a Mormon" just makes you sound like some evangelical redneck. No, I just think that anyone faithful to mormonism has serious problems making logical decisions and seriously impaired judgment. Thus I don't want that person to become the most powerful man in the world. Make sense now? Can you provide examples of his bad decisions and impaired judgement? Because that's what I'm asking. If he really does these things then you should be listing them and explaining why they are bad. Instead you're just tying in Mormonism as illogical, without showing how Romney has been illogical, or how Mormonism has lead him to those actions. No I can't. I'm afraid for what's to come, because every candidate makes sure that people like him before the vote, that doesn't stop them from doing retarded things once elected (hi bush). Thus: I distrust him because in my experience any person belonging to something as weird as mormonism (and I know quite a few) to be lacking a couple of marbles. edit: on second thought, there are a couple of things where I facepalmed IRL, but I can't really remember what they were. If I find them I'll post them here. Why didn't he do things when he was Governor of Massachusetts then? Or is this some mass mormon conspiracy to get one of them elected so they can turn the country towards new zionism? You do realize that the president doesn't pass laws right? If he proposes some "crazy mormon idea" then the liberals and the conservatives are just going to strike it down and he's going to look like an idiot. (Because a majority of them are protestant/catholic, and they don't want to alienate their bases.) On April 22 2012 01:49 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:45 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:39 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:31 1Eris1 wrote:On April 22 2012 01:27 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
[quote]
In the LDS church, a 'nonbeliever' becoming a bishop is unheard of. Period. It can't happen unless you've been ordained with the melchezedek priesthood, which you get several years after getting the Aaronic priesthood. You can't be in that position without being an active and faithful member for decades.
Yes, we are still talking about politicians. If you read back the last 2-3 or pages, you'll see that myself and others are concerned about having the country run by somebody who we feel has a fragile grip on reality. Have you seen any of Romney's policies or his programs? None of them are Mormonized or anything like that. If you want to use Mormonism as an excuse not to vote for him, you need to provide some substanial reasoning; because "he's a Mormon" just makes you sound like some evangelical redneck. The mormon church is homophobic, sexist, and racist. I believe Romney will carry these traits to the presidency. Homophobia - The LDS church donates millions in support of California's prop 8, an anti-gay marriage bill. Sexist - Women cannot hold the priesthood, or any position of authority in the church. The church embraced polygamy until it became clear that they could not achieve statehood, at which time the prophet had a revelation that God told him that polygamy was now bad. Joseph Smith, the church's founder, married one of his wives when she was 13. Racism - Blacks could not hold the priesthood until 1978, which also meant they couldn't be married and sealed in the temple, or ever go to the highest kingdom of heaven with the other mormons. I don't like homophobic, racist, and sexist people. I don't want one of them as our president. Mormonism is a big deal. And has Romney said that blacks and women cannot hold positions of power? Is Romney married to a 13 year old? No he's not. The only one of these you could make a legitimate claim about is him being against gay marriage, (I don't think he donated specifically to block Prop 8 though), and that's fine...but wait...Obama is also against gay marriage. He's a grown man, who makes his own decisions, and he chooses to be a prominent member of an organization that I find immoral, for the reasons I stated earlier. So you care more about a persons religious preference then their policies or ideas? I'm sorry but that just sounds like a really weak excuse. You're ignoring me, but I'll say it again. Mitt Romney chooses to lead his life as an active and prominent member of the LDS church. I believe the LDS church is immoral, and I believe its immoral to be an active and willing supporter of what they do. I believe his stance on issues will reflect those of the LDS church. Therefore, I don't want him to be president. What issues you ask? -Immigration -Women's choice -Gay marriage There's a start to the list. I don't understand your point. It's not like Romney publicly expresses the right views on these issues with you suspecting that that is just a ploy to disguise his real, Mormon positions. He is open about exactly where he stands on them, and it is roughly the same place as most of the rest of his party (if not slightly better). So why do you even have to consider his Mormonism instead of just looking directly to his views? I think both sides of this argument are talking about different things. People who feel it isnt an issue are basically saying that his relationship to God is irrelevant since it has not shown up excessively in his policies. People who are saying it is an issue are not talking about that relationship at all but instead about his relationship with other Mormons who are known as largely invested in a literal interpretation of scripture and ecclesiastic hierarchy. Basically the real question is, do personal associations matter? Personal associations don't matter. Obama proved that with the whole Jeremiah White preacher controversy.
Rule #1 of a democracy: You can't decide what is important to the voters.
I wish I could decide what was relevant and irrelevant to a voter's opinion, but nobody can... at best you can tell the something does or doesn't matter enough times and hope it sticks.
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On April 22 2012 07:19 Arghnews wrote:
Please don't vote for Romney...
Please Americans...please...
That poll that is at 59% to 28% for Romney is still too high for the man of insanity...
Lul Inorite how can Obama have so many votes?
Face it really TL is a EXTREMELY left wing website when it comes to politics and he still gets 30% of votes. Don't be surprised when Obama gets swept in the election.
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On April 22 2012 07:40 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 07:19 Arghnews wrote:
Please don't vote for Romney...
Please Americans...please...
That poll that is at 59% to 28% for Romney is still too high for the man of insanity... Lul Inorite how can Obama have so many votes? Face it really TL is a EXTREMELY left wing website when it comes to politics and he still gets 30% of votes. Don't be surprised when Obama gets swept in the election.
Actually, Its the US that is extremely right-wing.
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On April 22 2012 07:40 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 07:19 Arghnews wrote:
Please don't vote for Romney...
Please Americans...please...
That poll that is at 59% to 28% for Romney is still too high for the man of insanity... Lul Inorite how can Obama have so many votes? Face it really TL is a EXTREMELY left wing website when it comes to politics and he still gets 30% of votes. Don't be surprised when Obama gets swept in the election.
I don't understand the implied surprise. Obama is well known to be a center-right president and a left-wing candidate during elections. The TL population should know this at least.
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On April 22 2012 07:42 Undrass wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 07:40 CajunMan wrote:On April 22 2012 07:19 Arghnews wrote:
Please don't vote for Romney...
Please Americans...please...
That poll that is at 59% to 28% for Romney is still too high for the man of insanity... Lul Inorite how can Obama have so many votes? Face it really TL is a EXTREMELY left wing website when it comes to politics and he still gets 30% of votes. Don't be surprised when Obama gets swept in the election. Actually, Its the US that is extremely right-wing.
which would make the rest of the world extremely left wing in relation to the US.
right-wing, left-wing, chicken-wing. (Thanks Isaac Brock)
i don't see how it matters, what wing we sit on. A fence is a fence, and im not on the fence, i'm in the field. a lot of people are on the fence, and if you ask me some of em have jumped right off the damn cliff. however, i still don't see how that matters. some people like the more leftist policies (ugh) others subscribe to more right wing policies (yay!), and the majority of the country is right-wing but wants to be left-wing. does that make them middle-wing? i think not, but then again, i'm kind of dumb.
Romney v Obama, the ultimate smackdown. should have been Cain, but hell, whatrwegonnado? fact is, Obama's fighting an uphill battle here, and Romney's jumping off the damn cliff every five seconds only to pull himself up and back on that fence and into the field, but that's ok too. let's thank God that the rest of the world doesn't vote in America's elections though (other than the illegal immigrants i mean). i have yet to be convinced that anyone quite understands this country without living in it for a long time. perhaps even then.
not that any other country is different. no man can understand a land that he has not lived in and bled in. i love rhymes.
anywho, on the topic of being on-topic, i think that Romney will win in a landslide. hope that Romeny will win in a landslide. can Romney win in a landslide? perhaps, perhaps not. we shall have to wait and see, correct?
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EPT
