You're screwed either way.
President Obama Re-Elected - Page 22
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Half
United States2554 Posts
You're screwed either way. | ||
Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On April 20 2012 03:19 Zaqwert wrote: I love the "Romney is out of touch" argument. Yeah, because Obama, who is worth millions himself, is so much more in touch? Almost every politician from both major parties have no interest in the common man, other than duping him into voting for him. The "out of touch" argument is based on Romney being fucking out-of-touch. Obama, for the most part, is self-made. He made a few million from writing two fairly successful books that got a significant bump in sales after, y'know, becoming president. His income last year was $750,000, comprised by his salary as president and book royalties. To put that in perspective, Pauly D from fucking Jersey has a annual salary of about $1.5 million. Mitt is a silver spooner, grew up wealthy, and is a career bullshitter/investor. Here's a glimpse into the life of the Romney household and his actual show-ponies. | ||
mynameisgreat11
599 Posts
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Perscienter
957 Posts
On April 20 2012 03:38 xDaunt wrote: I don't see how anyone can think of Obama as an average joe or someone who can even connect with average joes. His background and upbringing were nothing like those ordinary Americans. Hell, the guy has an ivy league education, went to law school, and was a professor -- all of which divorce individuals from the realities of ordinary people. http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/galleries/2009/04/29/is-obama-keeping-his-promises.html Promise broken: 5 In the works: 3 Promise Kept: 9 Compromise: 1 Looks like any other ordinary asshole out there. He just had a big, competent media staff. Yes, his cv is top-notch, like you would expect of successful persons in such positions. I still can't see any ground-breaking reforms. By the way, what is meant by this? "Bringing a responsible end" to the war in Iraq and refocusing on the broader region. Does this equal keeping Iraq on the failed states index? | ||
ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On April 20 2012 03:39 CajunMan wrote: Your fiscal standing has no bearing on your presidential policies. What? It probably shouldn't, but it's a joke to say that a candidate's life experiences won't somehow shape his policy. Not saying any of this does or does not apply to Obama or Romney, but just as an example, you don't think a presidential candidate who grew up poor might feel stronger (positively) about welfare? Or that a presidential candidate who grew up privileged might not think it's very important, or be against it? Their fiscal standing NOW might not affect their policies, but there is a huge difference between having to earn and work for things growing up and having them provided for you. And this coming from someone who was extremely privileged with the opportunities I was provided. | ||
Half
United States2554 Posts
Vote Romney! + Show Spoiler + , Volume 6, Lawrence & Wishart, London 1976: Karl Marx SPEECH ON THE QUESTION OF FREE TRADE DELIVERED TO THE DEMOCRATIC ASSOCIATION OF BRUSSELS AT ITS PIBLIC MEETING OF JANUARY 9, 1848 Gentlemen, - The Repeal of the Corn Laws in England is the greatest triumph of Free Trade in the nineteenth century. In every country where manufacturers discuss Free Trade, they have in mind chiefly Free Trade in corn or raw material generally. To burden foreign corn with protective duties is infamous, it is to speculate on the hunger of the people. Cheap food, high wages, for this alone the English Free Traders have spent millions, and their enthusiasm has already infected their Continental brethren. And, generally speaking, all those who advocate Free Trade do so in the interests of the working class.' But, strange to say, the people for whom cheap food is to be procured at all costs are very ungrateful. Cheap food is as ill reputed in England as is cheap government in France. The people see in these self-sacrificing gentlemen, in Bowring, Bright & Co., their worst enemies and the most shameless hypocrites. Everyone knows that in England the struggle between Liberals and Democrats takes the name of the struggle between Free Traders and Chartists. Let us see how the English Free Traders have proved to the people the good intentions that animate them. {p. 463} To sum up, what is Free Trade under the present conditions of society? Feeedom of Capital. When you have torn down the few national barriers which still restrict the free development of capital, you will merely have given it complete freedom of action. So long as you let the relation of wages-labor to capital exist, no matter how favorable the conditions under which you accomplish the exchange of commodities, there will always be a class which exploits and a class which is exploited. It is really difficult to understand the presumptionm of the Free traders who imagine that the more advantageous application of capital will abolish the antagonism between industrial capitalists and wage workers. On the contrary. The only result will be that the antagonism of these two classes will stand out more clearly. ... {p. 464} Why should you desire farther to sanction unlimited competition with this idea of freedom, when the idea of freedom itself is only the product of a social condition based upon Free Competition? We have shown what sort of fraternity Free Trade begets between the different classes of one and the same nation. The fraternity which Free Trade would establish between the nations of the earth would not be more real, to call cosmopolitan exploitation universa1 brotherhood is an idea that could only be engendered in the brain of the bourgeoisie. Every one of the destructive phenomena to which unlimited competition gives rise within any one nation is reproduced in more gigantic proportions in the market of the world. We need not pause any longer upon Free Trade sophisms on this subject, which are worth just as much as the arguments of our prize essayists Messrs Hope, Morse, and Greg. For instance, we are told that Free Trade would create an international division of labor, and thereby give to each country those branches of production most in harmony with its natural advantages. You believe perhaps, gentlemen, that the production of coffee and sugar is the natural destiny of the West Indies. Two centuries ago, nature, which does not trouble itself about commerce, had planted neither sugar-cane nor coffee trees there. And it may be that in less than half a century you will find there neither coffee nor sugar, for the East Indies, by means of cheaper production, have already successfully broken down this so-called natural destiny of the West Indies. And the West Indies, with their natural wealth, are as heavy a burden for England as the weavers of Dacca, who also were destined from the beginning of time to weave by hand. One other circumstance must not be forgotten, namely that, just as everything has become a monopoly, there are also nowadays some branches of industry which prevail over all others, and secure to the nations which especially foster them the command of the market of the world. Thus in the commerce of the world cotton alone has much greater commercial importance than all the other raw materials used in the manufacture of clothing. It is truly ridiculous for the Free Traders to refer to the few specialties in each branch of industry, throwing them into the balance against the product used in everyday consumption, and produced most cheaply in those countries in which manufacture is most highly developed. If the Free Traders cannot understand how one nation can grow rich at the expense of another, we need not wonder, since these same {p. 465} gentlemen also refuse to understand how in the same country one class can enrich itself at the expense of another. Do not imagine, gentlemen, that in criticising freedom of commerce we have the least intention of defending Protection. One may be opposed to constitutionalism without being in favor of absolutism. Moreover, the Protective system is nothing but a means of establishing manufacture upon a large scale in any given country, that is to say, of making it dependent upon the market of the world: and from the moment that dependence upon the market of the world is established, there is more or less dependence upon Free Trade too. Besides this, the Protective system helps to develop free competition within a nation. Hence we see that in countries where the bourgeoisie is beginning to make itself felt as a class, in Germany for example, it makes great efforts to obtain Protective duties. They serve the bourgeoisie as weapons against feudalism and absolute monarchy, as a means for the concentration of its own powers for the realization of Free Trade within the country. But, generally speaking, the Protective system in these days is conservative, while the Free Trade system works destructively. It breaks up old nationalities and carries antagonism of proletariat and bourgeoisie to the uttermost point. In a word, the Free Trade system hastens the Social Revolution. In this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, I am in favor of Free Trade. First published in French as a pamphlet at the beginning of February 1848 Signed: Karl Marx {end} | ||
Blindo
United States102 Posts
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Doublemint
Austria8366 Posts
On April 20 2012 03:38 xDaunt wrote: I don't see how anyone can think of Obama as an average joe or someone who can even connect with average joes. His background and upbringing were nothing like those ordinary Americans. Hell, the guy has an ivy league education, went to law school, and was a professor -- all of which divorce individuals from the realities of ordinary people. Community organizer I think would be in the category "connecting with average people". I also looked it up not to be wrong, every single potus in the last 30 years was at least college educated, if not ivy league educated (just for the sake of argument - even before that people in the white house used to be smart... and graduating from college.) I don´t see how that is even an issue. | ||
farvacola
United States18818 Posts
On April 20 2012 04:27 Half wrote: And some advice for any silly leftists left in America... Vote Romney! + Show Spoiler + , Volume 6, Lawrence & Wishart, London 1976: {p. 450} Karl Marx SPEECH ON THE QUESTION OF FREE TRADE DELIVERED TO THE DEMOCRATIC ASSOCIATION OF BRUSSELS AT ITS PIBLIC MEETING OF JANUARY 9, 1848 Gentlemen, - The Repeal of the Corn Laws in England is the greatest triumph of Free Trade in the nineteenth century. In every country where manufacturers discuss Free Trade, they have in mind chiefly Free Trade in corn or raw material generally. To burden foreign corn with protective duties is infamous, it is to speculate on the hunger of the people. Cheap food, high wages, for this alone the English Free Traders have spent millions, and their enthusiasm has already infected their Continental brethren. And, generally speaking, all those who advocate Free Trade do so in the interests of the working class.' But, strange to say, the people for whom cheap food is to be procured at all costs are very ungrateful. Cheap food is as ill reputed in England as is cheap government in France. The people see in these self-sacrificing gentlemen, in Bowring, Bright & Co., their worst enemies and the most shameless hypocrites. Everyone knows that in England the struggle between Liberals and Democrats takes the name of the struggle between Free Traders and Chartists. Let us see how the English Free Traders have proved to the people the good intentions that animate them. {p. 463} To sum up, what is Free Trade under the present conditions of society? Feeedom of Capital. When you have torn down the few national barriers which still restrict the free development of capital, you will merely have given it complete freedom of action. So long as you let the relation of wages-labor to capital exist, no matter how favorable the conditions under which you accomplish the exchange of commodities, there will always be a class which exploits and a class which is exploited. It is really difficult to understand the presumptionm of the Free traders who imagine that the more advantageous application of capital will abolish the antagonism between industrial capitalists and wage workers. On the contrary. The only result will be that the antagonism of these two classes will stand out more clearly. ... {p. 464} Why should you desire farther to sanction unlimited competition with this idea of freedom, when the idea of freedom itself is only the product of a social condition based upon Free Competition? We have shown what sort of fraternity Free Trade begets between the different classes of one and the same nation. The fraternity which Free Trade would establish between the nations of the earth would not be more real, to call cosmopolitan exploitation universa1 brotherhood is an idea that could only be engendered in the brain of the bourgeoisie. Every one of the destructive phenomena to which unlimited competition gives rise within any one nation is reproduced in more gigantic proportions in the market of the world. We need not pause any longer upon Free Trade sophisms on this subject, which are worth just as much as the arguments of our prize essayists Messrs Hope, Morse, and Greg. For instance, we are told that Free Trade would create an international division of labor, and thereby give to each country those branches of production most in harmony with its natural advantages. You believe perhaps, gentlemen, that the production of coffee and sugar is the natural destiny of the West Indies. Two centuries ago, nature, which does not trouble itself about commerce, had planted neither sugar-cane nor coffee trees there. And it may be that in less than half a century you will find there neither coffee nor sugar, for the East Indies, by means of cheaper production, have already successfully broken down this so-called natural destiny of the West Indies. And the West Indies, with their natural wealth, are as heavy a burden for England as the weavers of Dacca, who also were destined from the beginning of time to weave by hand. One other circumstance must not be forgotten, namely that, just as everything has become a monopoly, there are also nowadays some branches of industry which prevail over all others, and secure to the nations which especially foster them the command of the market of the world. Thus in the commerce of the world cotton alone has much greater commercial importance than all the other raw materials used in the manufacture of clothing. It is truly ridiculous for the Free Traders to refer to the few specialties in each branch of industry, throwing them into the balance against the product used in everyday consumption, and produced most cheaply in those countries in which manufacture is most highly developed. If the Free Traders cannot understand how one nation can grow rich at the expense of another, we need not wonder, since these same {p. 465} gentlemen also refuse to understand how in the same country one class can enrich itself at the expense of another. Do not imagine, gentlemen, that in criticising freedom of commerce we have the least intention of defending Protection. One may be opposed to constitutionalism without being in favor of absolutism. Moreover, the Protective system is nothing but a means of establishing manufacture upon a large scale in any given country, that is to say, of making it dependent upon the market of the world: and from the moment that dependence upon the market of the world is established, there is more or less dependence upon Free Trade too. Besides this, the Protective system helps to develop free competition within a nation. Hence we see that in countries where the bourgeoisie is beginning to make itself felt as a class, in Germany for example, it makes great efforts to obtain Protective duties. They serve the bourgeoisie as weapons against feudalism and absolute monarchy, as a means for the concentration of its own powers for the realization of Free Trade within the country. But, generally speaking, the Protective system in these days is conservative, while the Free Trade system works destructively. It breaks up old nationalities and carries antagonism of proletariat and bourgeoisie to the uttermost point. In a word, the Free Trade system hastens the Social Revolution. In this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, I am in favor of Free Trade. First published in French as a pamphlet at the beginning of February 1848 Signed: Karl Marx {end} Yes, part of Marxist ideology is to maximize the growth and potential of capitalism, so that the system brings about what Marx considered the natural ending point: a consummate, total labor revolt and implementation of systemic Marxism. So what? Your assumption that "silly leftists" are all Marxists is quite telling of who is being silly here, perhaps you ought to better understand the fluid definition of liberalism, or any political ideology for that matter, before calling entire groups of people silly. | ||
U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On April 20 2012 03:35 SafeAsCheese wrote: He still had to get loans and stuff to attend University. He was far from poor or lower class, but he was not Prince MegaRich like many other people who can run for president. Mitt Romney got a full ride academic scholarship due to his hard work and intelligence. George Romneys salary at American Motors was about 250k per year. I am struggling not to be insulting so I will just stop now before I get banned. | ||
xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On April 20 2012 04:35 Doublemint wrote: Community organizer I think would be in the category "connecting with average people". I also looked it up not to be wrong, every single potus in the last 30 years was at least college educated, if not ivy league educated (just for the sake of argument - even before that people in the white house used to be smart... and graduating from college.) I don´t see how that is even an issue. I didn't say it was an issue. I'm just pointing out that it's hypocritical to hammer Romney for being out of touch when Obama really isn't any different. | ||
liberal
1116 Posts
When you are ignorant of these things then your voting tends to revolve around terrible rationalizations... "I just can't stand Religionism, he doesn't seem average enough, I don't like the gas prices, I don't like where this guy worked, I don't like how this guy treated his wife, I think this guy has a bad religion, this guy made too much money, I don't like this guy's stance on this science issue even though he's only clearly pandering to an ignorant population, I think he's too old and gonna die soon, he was born in Kenya"... In reality most partisans don't have principled reasons for supporting something, they have subconscious emotional reasons. The desire to feel safe, smart, down to earth, traditional, progressive, or whatever. The really crazy thing is that people actually get partisan and vehemently support or attack one of the candidates. There is no way that any person with any sort of consistent principles could be enthusiastic about either of these candidates. Luckily many people are learning that there's little real difference between the parties once an election is over, although I don't know if it will ever be enough to overcome biological tribalism. | ||
Fealthas
607 Posts
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Rice
United States1332 Posts
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liberal
1116 Posts
On April 20 2012 04:42 Rice wrote: can we get a less ridiculously biased first post? Based on the poll data, I'm assuming if the OP was a biased Democrat we wouldn't be hearing one tenth of the complaints. I certainly didn't hear this many in the Republican Nominations thread. | ||
Half
United States2554 Posts
On April 20 2012 04:36 farvacola wrote: Yes, part of Marxist ideology is to maximize the growth and potential of capitalism, so that the system brings about what Marx considered the natural ending point: a consummate, total labor revolt and implementation of systemic Marxism. So what? Your assumption that "silly leftists" are all Marxists is quite telling of who is being silly here, perhaps you ought to better understand the fluid definition of liberalism, or any political ideology for that matter, before calling entire groups of people silly. I don't consider progressives leftists, I don't consider social liberals leftists. Hence "left" in america. There aren't very many leftists left in America. I think Marx would agree with me on that. But really, you're reading too much into what I said. I'm just generally facetious. | ||
Doublemint
Austria8366 Posts
On April 20 2012 04:36 xDaunt wrote: I didn't say it was an issue. I'm just pointing out that it's hypocritical to hammer Romney for being out of touch when Obama really isn't any different. I see, well then you are right. But it´s pretty easy to bash Romney nowadays when big money institutions(aided by hopelessly and utterly stupid politicians) are spending tax payer money like it was theirs and demanding even more if they fail... and will get it again in case I am afraid. He seems just as smart and "heartless" as them - or at least can be painted easily as such a person. Bain Capital is also an easy target - and Romney himself is hilarious with his 10k dollar bets on some debates ^_^. I am really interested if he will come back as the MA governor, even I would have no problem voting for this guy - apart from him being a mormon I might add, but oh well freedom of religion even if magic underpants are involved... he nonetheless will need moderates to beat Obama. Or a hell of a campaign and platform to ride on. But him being a flip flopper and all... not sure now. I still tend to believe Obama will make it. Also OP is pretty biased... | ||
Fake)Plants
United States373 Posts
On April 20 2012 04:16 Half wrote: (hint) You're screwed either way. Probably, but I guess we can trudge out and try again once more. Being the president is a big deal, huge deal even, but there are checks and balances and lobbyists in place to keep things mired the way they are no matter who wins the election. America! | ||
farvacola
United States18818 Posts
On April 20 2012 04:40 liberal wrote: Usually the single most important issue in a country is also the one that people are most ignorant about, and also one of the one's least discussed: economics. And when I say economics I don't mean a simplistic "how we gonna get more jobs???" When you are ignorant of these things then your voting tends to revolve around terrible rationalizations... "I just can't stand Religionism, I don't like the gas prices, I don't like where this guy worked, I don't like how this guy treated his wife, I think this guy has a bad religion, this guy made too much money, I don't like this guy's stance on this science issue even though he's only clearly pandering to an ignorant population, I think he's too old and gonna die soon, he was born in Kenya"... In reality most partisans don't have principled reasons for supporting something, they have subconscious emotional reasons. The desire to feel safe, smart, down to earth, traditional, progressive, or whatever. The really crazy thing is that people actually get partisan and vehemently support or attack one of the candidates. There is no way that any person with any sort of consistent principles could be enthusiastic about either of these candidates. Luckily many people are learning that there's little real difference between the parties once an election is over, although I don't know if it will ever be enough to overcome biological tribalism. Might I also warn against assuming these things when considering an alternative viewpoint, as the casual dismissal of a majority of voting opinions based on personal experiences with poorly conceived ones is not a sound way to go about things. One of the biggest issues politics in general faces, especially considering the state of information access via the internet or media outlets, is that individuals are now more than ever inclined to give their anecdotal perspective more weight than it truly bears. Massive distrust of media companies, inherent lack of respect for differing perspectives, and overwhelming access to information has led to a political scene in which people are led to believe that their perspective is the only right one, leading to a shutdown of possible outside influence. With all that being said, there is good information out there, there are people in journalism and media who are doing the right thing in presenting unbiased facts rather than platforms or opinions, it is just far more difficult than ever before to decide who to listen to. My only advice in terms of moving forward is to temper one's own experiences with an open-mindedness that allows for the possibility that someone else sees things totally differently, and to respect and listen to what they have to say accordingly. I am a firm believer in the tenets of proper government provision of certain resources, especially given the success of alternative models in Canada and Europe, and I can see how the current economic/social environment gives a clear advantage to those with means, and in turn can dump a great deal of misfortune on those in the dwindling middle class, regardless of how much some people put forth in terms of hard work/due diligence. It is for these reasons that I will be voting Obama. | ||
Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On April 20 2012 04:45 liberal wrote: Based on the poll data, I'm assuming if the OP was a biased Democrat we wouldn't be hearing one tenth of the complaints. I certainly didn't hear this many in the Republican Nominations thread. Either way I think the thread should at least have been started by a longer-standing TL member who would be less likely to abuse it either way. Bias is fine, straight up campaigning isn't. Though imo it's just the "discussion points" that should be modded out. The OP would be rather simple then, but given the circumstances, maybe that's for the best. | ||
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