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On November 08 2012 05:44 BluePanther wrote:BTW, some pretty big news that's been lagging behind. I had totally forgotten about this election. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20238272The United States will have it's first Spanish speaking state.
A republican congress is likely to be an obstacle imo.
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On November 08 2012 05:44 BluePanther wrote:BTW, some pretty big news that's been lagging behind. I had totally forgotten about this election. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20238272The United States will have it's first Spanish speaking state.
I don't think so. I think it's a coin flip. They just got rid of the governor who was FOR it in favor of one who's AGAINST statehood.
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On November 08 2012 05:38 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 05:33 BluePanther wrote:On November 08 2012 05:23 xDaunt wrote:
The obvious question to ask is where does the republican party go from here. Open division between moderate and conservative republicans is on the way. Each have arguments to make regarding who is to blame for this debacle. Each is also at least partially right. I’m not really prepared to comment any further on what republicans need to do to right the ship. I think that it is going to take some time to digest. I'll be blunt: the moderates are the ones truly in charge. They are the ones that steer the boat. They've been steering to the conservatives for a while now since it gets the votes, but it seems they are doing more harm than help as of late. It's time we steer it in a different direction and let them flounder in the water if they don't like it. It's not like they're going to vote for a Democrat anyways. The fact that Ryan is still the post-boy of choice for the pundits that have been leading the GOP faithful for a while gives me little hope of this.
He's actually very electable with some tweaks. He's very frank about his intentions and plans which is refreshing for a politician, and it really doesn't hurt that he's kinda hot. He obviously needs to move towards the center quite a distance but he's a politician, they're positions are more malleable than any other on the planet. It will be easy peasy to get him to talk like a moderate. The hard stuff life how he speaks and how he looks is done.
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On November 08 2012 05:49 farvacola wrote:
Moderate Republicans need their big speakers to start speaking as loudly as the neocons. It seems the US public has made it clear that it doesn't like what its hearing.
I couldn't agree more. The problem is it's very hard to shout louder than extreme conservatives
ex: have you ever seen the O'Reilly factor?
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United States41958 Posts
One thing to note regarding parties in the US compared to parties in the UK is how little control they have over their politicians. In the UK we have one elected house and although we have a constituency system for electing them our Members of Parliament are elected on the basis of their party platform. The leader of the party has the power to form his cabinet and dismiss MPs from his cabinet at whim, as long as he retains the confidence of the house he can do what he likes as PM. He also has the power as party leader to remove anyone he likes from his party. While he cannot deselect an elected MP from their position as an MP he can refuse to allow them to stand as a member for his party at the next election (overruling the local party if needed) which will almost always result in their losing their job. Until the next election he can force them to remain on the back benches where they still have a vote but cannot influence policy. Furthermore as leader of the party he can dismiss party officials (chairman, treasurer etc) who fuck up.
What this means is that it is a much more tightly run organisation which can represent a brand or a set of ideals without constantly being undermined. The party structure in the US gives considerably less power to the leader, both in terms of his constitutional powers to control the elected representatives and in his extra-constitutional powers to do what he likes with his own party. It's damaging to the brand.
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On November 08 2012 05:51 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 05:38 TheTenthDoc wrote:On November 08 2012 05:33 BluePanther wrote:On November 08 2012 05:23 xDaunt wrote:
The obvious question to ask is where does the republican party go from here. Open division between moderate and conservative republicans is on the way. Each have arguments to make regarding who is to blame for this debacle. Each is also at least partially right. I’m not really prepared to comment any further on what republicans need to do to right the ship. I think that it is going to take some time to digest. I'll be blunt: the moderates are the ones truly in charge. They are the ones that steer the boat. They've been steering to the conservatives for a while now since it gets the votes, but it seems they are doing more harm than help as of late. It's time we steer it in a different direction and let them flounder in the water if they don't like it. It's not like they're going to vote for a Democrat anyways. The fact that Ryan is still the post-boy of choice for the pundits that have been leading the GOP faithful for a while gives me little hope of this. He's actually very electable with some tweaks. He's very frank about his intentions and plans which is refreshing for a politician, and it really doesn't hurt that he's kinda hot. He obviously needs to move towards the center quite a distance but he's a politician, they're positions are more malleable than any other on the planet. It will be easy peasy to get him to talk like a moderate. The hard stuff life how he speaks and how he looks is done.
He's pretty much the male version of Palin. He'll never be electable.
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On November 08 2012 05:51 Risen wrote:I don't think so. I think it's a coin flip. They just got rid of the governor who was FOR it in favor of one who's AGAINST statehood.
The statehood vote WAS their vote for or against.
Don't forget that we don't have to require their approval or anything. We own them. Literally.
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On November 08 2012 05:55 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 05:51 Klondikebar wrote:On November 08 2012 05:38 TheTenthDoc wrote:On November 08 2012 05:33 BluePanther wrote:On November 08 2012 05:23 xDaunt wrote:
The obvious question to ask is where does the republican party go from here. Open division between moderate and conservative republicans is on the way. Each have arguments to make regarding who is to blame for this debacle. Each is also at least partially right. I’m not really prepared to comment any further on what republicans need to do to right the ship. I think that it is going to take some time to digest. I'll be blunt: the moderates are the ones truly in charge. They are the ones that steer the boat. They've been steering to the conservatives for a while now since it gets the votes, but it seems they are doing more harm than help as of late. It's time we steer it in a different direction and let them flounder in the water if they don't like it. It's not like they're going to vote for a Democrat anyways. The fact that Ryan is still the post-boy of choice for the pundits that have been leading the GOP faithful for a while gives me little hope of this. He's actually very electable with some tweaks. He's very frank about his intentions and plans which is refreshing for a politician, and it really doesn't hurt that he's kinda hot. He obviously needs to move towards the center quite a distance but he's a politician, they're positions are more malleable than any other on the planet. It will be easy peasy to get him to talk like a moderate. The hard stuff life how he speaks and how he looks is done. He's pretty much the male version of Palin. He'll never be electable.
Really? Imagine him saying the exact same things Biden said. Imagine if their vice presidential debate was swapped. Like I said, don't think about his silly positions...those are INCREDIBLY easy to change as a politician. Think about his other characteristics. The only reason you're so, justifiably, turned off Ryan is because of his bat shit insane political statements. But politicians don't have any ideas of their own. If we want him to stop being bat shit insane we can just tell him to say other stuff. The shell is what's difficult to change and he's got a good shell.
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On November 08 2012 05:44 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 05:23 xDaunt wrote:
Well, no point sugar-coating this. This was an ugly election for republicans for a lot of reasons. I also think that this election may be an inflection point for the country.
First, I’d be remiss if I didn’t state the obvious that I was dead wrong about the polls. Clearly they were right. I’m still shocked at how low the turnout was. If conservatives can’t get out of bed for this election, what will they get out of bed for?
This may surprise some of you, but I fall into the camp of “Obama won” as opposed to “Romney lost.” Was Romney a flawed candidate yes? Yes. Did he run a timid campaign? Yes. Did he leave a lot of issues on the table in exchange for a singular focus on the economy? Yes. Would a different campaign strategy have resulted in a win? No, I don’t think so. Voters had a lot of reasons to send Obama packing. All of the reasons were reasonably well-known (despite the media’s best attempts to hide them). Yet, the voters gave Obama another term despite it all. The ramifications of this are profound.
The obvious question to ask is where does the republican party go from here. Open division between moderate and conservative republicans is on the way. Each have arguments to make regarding who is to blame for this debacle. Each is also at least partially right. I’m not really prepared to comment any further on what republicans need to do to right the ship. I think that it is going to take some time to digest. I don't think promoting a guy like Romney and then only talking about the economy creates a "singular focus on economy". If anything, when a person with conservative social views refuses to comment on them he ends up looking like a crackpot. What I would love to see from Republicans in my lifetime (I think 2016 is too soon) would be a candidate with republican economic views who is VERY far left on social issues. Way farther left than whatever democratic candidate is running. Basically libertarian ends with republican means so we avoid the whole crazy anti-federalism nonsense that is the libertarian party. It would be so interesting, like a dream come true.
I'm not sure there are enough such persons with such views that one of them could get to even become a candidate.
Such a person would never be accepted among the Republican party. Not as it currently stands. The second they got onto the national stage, pundits like Limbaugh would absolutely tear them to shreds. They would get little of the "heartland" vote. I doubt they'd win in the Iowa caucases, and while NH would vote for them, South Carolina wouldn't.
Social conservatives make up the most rabid, largest turnout faction of the Republican party. If a Republican wins the Presidency, it will only be because they turned out for them. And that's just not going to happen with such a candidate. Without the social conservative vote, they would never get the nomination, even if nationally they'd be able to win.
The person you describe is more likely to be an independent or a Democrat. The Republican party simply is not a place for that person.
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On November 08 2012 05:51 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 05:38 TheTenthDoc wrote:On November 08 2012 05:33 BluePanther wrote:On November 08 2012 05:23 xDaunt wrote:
The obvious question to ask is where does the republican party go from here. Open division between moderate and conservative republicans is on the way. Each have arguments to make regarding who is to blame for this debacle. Each is also at least partially right. I’m not really prepared to comment any further on what republicans need to do to right the ship. I think that it is going to take some time to digest. I'll be blunt: the moderates are the ones truly in charge. They are the ones that steer the boat. They've been steering to the conservatives for a while now since it gets the votes, but it seems they are doing more harm than help as of late. It's time we steer it in a different direction and let them flounder in the water if they don't like it. It's not like they're going to vote for a Democrat anyways. The fact that Ryan is still the post-boy of choice for the pundits that have been leading the GOP faithful for a while gives me little hope of this. He's actually very electable with some tweaks. He's very frank about his intentions and plans which is refreshing for a politician, and it really doesn't hurt that he's kinda hot. He obviously needs to move towards the center quite a distance but he's a politician, they're positions are more malleable than any other on the planet. It will be easy peasy to get him to talk like a moderate. The hard stuff life how he speaks and how he looks is done.
No, actually the opposite is true. Ryan is what i call a 50 yarder, he looks really good from 50 yards away, but the closer you get to him, the weirder he looks lol.
![[image loading]](http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/congress/members/photos/228/R000570.jpg)
It can't just me be?
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On November 08 2012 05:55 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 05:51 Klondikebar wrote:On November 08 2012 05:38 TheTenthDoc wrote:On November 08 2012 05:33 BluePanther wrote:On November 08 2012 05:23 xDaunt wrote:
The obvious question to ask is where does the republican party go from here. Open division between moderate and conservative republicans is on the way. Each have arguments to make regarding who is to blame for this debacle. Each is also at least partially right. I’m not really prepared to comment any further on what republicans need to do to right the ship. I think that it is going to take some time to digest. I'll be blunt: the moderates are the ones truly in charge. They are the ones that steer the boat. They've been steering to the conservatives for a while now since it gets the votes, but it seems they are doing more harm than help as of late. It's time we steer it in a different direction and let them flounder in the water if they don't like it. It's not like they're going to vote for a Democrat anyways. The fact that Ryan is still the post-boy of choice for the pundits that have been leading the GOP faithful for a while gives me little hope of this. He's actually very electable with some tweaks. He's very frank about his intentions and plans which is refreshing for a politician, and it really doesn't hurt that he's kinda hot. He obviously needs to move towards the center quite a distance but he's a politician, they're positions are more malleable than any other on the planet. It will be easy peasy to get him to talk like a moderate. The hard stuff life how he speaks and how he looks is done. He's pretty much the male version of Palin. He'll never be electable.
I don't think he's so bad. I think his image and voice has been tainted by the requirement of supporting Romney
There's been reports where he just doesn't want to run along with the Romney-train anymore even before the election.
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On November 08 2012 05:58 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 05:51 Klondikebar wrote:On November 08 2012 05:38 TheTenthDoc wrote:On November 08 2012 05:33 BluePanther wrote:On November 08 2012 05:23 xDaunt wrote:
The obvious question to ask is where does the republican party go from here. Open division between moderate and conservative republicans is on the way. Each have arguments to make regarding who is to blame for this debacle. Each is also at least partially right. I’m not really prepared to comment any further on what republicans need to do to right the ship. I think that it is going to take some time to digest. I'll be blunt: the moderates are the ones truly in charge. They are the ones that steer the boat. They've been steering to the conservatives for a while now since it gets the votes, but it seems they are doing more harm than help as of late. It's time we steer it in a different direction and let them flounder in the water if they don't like it. It's not like they're going to vote for a Democrat anyways. The fact that Ryan is still the post-boy of choice for the pundits that have been leading the GOP faithful for a while gives me little hope of this. He's actually very electable with some tweaks. He's very frank about his intentions and plans which is refreshing for a politician, and it really doesn't hurt that he's kinda hot. He obviously needs to move towards the center quite a distance but he's a politician, they're positions are more malleable than any other on the planet. It will be easy peasy to get him to talk like a moderate. The hard stuff life how he speaks and how he looks is done. No, actually the opposite is true. Ryan is what i call a 50 yarder, he looks really good from 50 yards away, but the closer you get to him, the weirder he looks lol. It can't just me be?
Fix the hair and I'd bang him.
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On November 08 2012 05:57 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 05:55 TheTenthDoc wrote:On November 08 2012 05:51 Klondikebar wrote:On November 08 2012 05:38 TheTenthDoc wrote:On November 08 2012 05:33 BluePanther wrote:On November 08 2012 05:23 xDaunt wrote:
The obvious question to ask is where does the republican party go from here. Open division between moderate and conservative republicans is on the way. Each have arguments to make regarding who is to blame for this debacle. Each is also at least partially right. I’m not really prepared to comment any further on what republicans need to do to right the ship. I think that it is going to take some time to digest. I'll be blunt: the moderates are the ones truly in charge. They are the ones that steer the boat. They've been steering to the conservatives for a while now since it gets the votes, but it seems they are doing more harm than help as of late. It's time we steer it in a different direction and let them flounder in the water if they don't like it. It's not like they're going to vote for a Democrat anyways. The fact that Ryan is still the post-boy of choice for the pundits that have been leading the GOP faithful for a while gives me little hope of this. He's actually very electable with some tweaks. He's very frank about his intentions and plans which is refreshing for a politician, and it really doesn't hurt that he's kinda hot. He obviously needs to move towards the center quite a distance but he's a politician, they're positions are more malleable than any other on the planet. It will be easy peasy to get him to talk like a moderate. The hard stuff life how he speaks and how he looks is done. He's pretty much the male version of Palin. He'll never be electable. Really? Imagine him saying the exact same things Biden said. Like I said, don't think about his silly positions...those are INCREDIBLY easy to change as a politician. Think about his other characteristics.
He has no knowledge base and spews nonsense regarding foreign policy. He's a career politician who's never accomplished anything of note. He regularly gaffes. He's physically attractive. His accent is appealing.
Sounds like the male Palin to me. I mean, you could do all of what you say with Palin too.
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On November 08 2012 05:55 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 05:51 Risen wrote:On November 08 2012 05:44 BluePanther wrote:BTW, some pretty big news that's been lagging behind. I had totally forgotten about this election. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20238272The United States will have it's first Spanish speaking state. I don't think so. I think it's a coin flip. They just got rid of the governor who was FOR it in favor of one who's AGAINST statehood. The statehood vote WAS their vote for or against. Don't forget that we don't have to require their approval or anything. We own them. Literally.
And here I thought you got rid of slavery, literally.
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On November 08 2012 05:59 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 05:58 darthfoley wrote:On November 08 2012 05:51 Klondikebar wrote:On November 08 2012 05:38 TheTenthDoc wrote:On November 08 2012 05:33 BluePanther wrote:On November 08 2012 05:23 xDaunt wrote:
The obvious question to ask is where does the republican party go from here. Open division between moderate and conservative republicans is on the way. Each have arguments to make regarding who is to blame for this debacle. Each is also at least partially right. I’m not really prepared to comment any further on what republicans need to do to right the ship. I think that it is going to take some time to digest. I'll be blunt: the moderates are the ones truly in charge. They are the ones that steer the boat. They've been steering to the conservatives for a while now since it gets the votes, but it seems they are doing more harm than help as of late. It's time we steer it in a different direction and let them flounder in the water if they don't like it. It's not like they're going to vote for a Democrat anyways. The fact that Ryan is still the post-boy of choice for the pundits that have been leading the GOP faithful for a while gives me little hope of this. He's actually very electable with some tweaks. He's very frank about his intentions and plans which is refreshing for a politician, and it really doesn't hurt that he's kinda hot. He obviously needs to move towards the center quite a distance but he's a politician, they're positions are more malleable than any other on the planet. It will be easy peasy to get him to talk like a moderate. The hard stuff life how he speaks and how he looks is done. No, actually the opposite is true. Ryan is what i call a 50 yarder, he looks really good from 50 yards away, but the closer you get to him, the weirder he looks lol. It can't just me be? Fix the hair and I'd bang him.
dat_nose :| it's so...large
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On November 08 2012 05:55 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 05:51 Risen wrote:On November 08 2012 05:44 BluePanther wrote:BTW, some pretty big news that's been lagging behind. I had totally forgotten about this election. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20238272The United States will have it's first Spanish speaking state. I don't think so. I think it's a coin flip. They just got rid of the governor who was FOR it in favor of one who's AGAINST statehood. The statehood vote WAS their vote for or against. Don't forget that we don't have to require their approval or anything. We own them. Literally.
It's not as simple as that. They passed a non-binding referendum. Why aren't they a state now if the vote passed?
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On November 08 2012 05:55 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 05:51 Klondikebar wrote:On November 08 2012 05:38 TheTenthDoc wrote:On November 08 2012 05:33 BluePanther wrote:On November 08 2012 05:23 xDaunt wrote:
The obvious question to ask is where does the republican party go from here. Open division between moderate and conservative republicans is on the way. Each have arguments to make regarding who is to blame for this debacle. Each is also at least partially right. I’m not really prepared to comment any further on what republicans need to do to right the ship. I think that it is going to take some time to digest. I'll be blunt: the moderates are the ones truly in charge. They are the ones that steer the boat. They've been steering to the conservatives for a while now since it gets the votes, but it seems they are doing more harm than help as of late. It's time we steer it in a different direction and let them flounder in the water if they don't like it. It's not like they're going to vote for a Democrat anyways. The fact that Ryan is still the post-boy of choice for the pundits that have been leading the GOP faithful for a while gives me little hope of this. He's actually very electable with some tweaks. He's very frank about his intentions and plans which is refreshing for a politician, and it really doesn't hurt that he's kinda hot. He obviously needs to move towards the center quite a distance but he's a politician, they're positions are more malleable than any other on the planet. It will be easy peasy to get him to talk like a moderate. The hard stuff life how he speaks and how he looks is done. He's pretty much the male version of Palin. He'll never be electable.
Agreed. He served a purpose of being an energizer, not someone of substance. He's already been fact-checked to death to where he's no longer relevant. Paul Ryan was somewhat of an "all-in" so to speak. Got scouted. Its over.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 08 2012 05:53 KwarK wrote:
One thing to note regarding parties in the US compared to parties in the UK is how little control they have over their politicians. In the UK we have one elected house and although we have a constituency system for electing them our Members of Parliament are elected on the basis of their party platform. The leader of the party has the power to form his cabinet and dismiss MPs from his cabinet at whim, as long as he retains the confidence of the house he can do what he likes as PM. He also has the power as party leader to remove anyone he likes from his party. While he cannot deselect an elected MP from their position as an MP he can refuse to allow them to stand as a member for his party at the next election (overruling the local party if needed) which will almost always result in their losing their job. Until the next election he can force them to remain on the back benches where they still have a vote but cannot influence policy. Furthermore as leader of the party he can dismiss party officials (chairman, treasurer etc) who fuck up.
What this means is that it is a much more tightly run organisation which can represent a brand or a set of ideals without constantly being undermined. The party structure in the US gives considerably less power to the leader, both in terms of his constitutional powers to control the elected representatives and in his extra-constitutional powers to do what he likes with his own party. It's damaging to the brand.
I actually prefer the U.S. in this regard. The freedom to vote against your party without fear of major backlash is important. We elect our representatives to represent us, specifically, and not their parties. Of course, the two would be more closely intertwined if it were not for our two-party system.
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On November 08 2012 05:51 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 05:38 TheTenthDoc wrote:On November 08 2012 05:33 BluePanther wrote:On November 08 2012 05:23 xDaunt wrote:
The obvious question to ask is where does the republican party go from here. Open division between moderate and conservative republicans is on the way. Each have arguments to make regarding who is to blame for this debacle. Each is also at least partially right. I’m not really prepared to comment any further on what republicans need to do to right the ship. I think that it is going to take some time to digest. I'll be blunt: the moderates are the ones truly in charge. They are the ones that steer the boat. They've been steering to the conservatives for a while now since it gets the votes, but it seems they are doing more harm than help as of late. It's time we steer it in a different direction and let them flounder in the water if they don't like it. It's not like they're going to vote for a Democrat anyways. The fact that Ryan is still the post-boy of choice for the pundits that have been leading the GOP faithful for a while gives me little hope of this. He's actually very electable with some tweaks. He's very frank about his intentions and plans which is refreshing for a politician, and it really doesn't hurt that he's kinda hot. He obviously needs to move towards the center quite a distance but he's a politician, they're positions are more malleable than any other on the planet. It will be easy peasy to get him to talk like a moderate. The hard stuff life how he speaks and how he looks is done.
Problem is that Ryan is a Randian ideologue who's go to political argument is complaining people 'just don't understand' the clarity and logic of his ideas. It is not only patronizing, but wrong. Most Americans do not subscribe to his vision of a social Darwinist libertarian 'utopia.' He can't really run away from the radical ideas that he was the strongest and most vocal champion of (vouchercare, privatizing social security etc). But I guess there is nothing stopping him from trying.
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On November 08 2012 05:37 Daigomi wrote:
It's pretty interesting, you have all these people (including Europeans) calling the republicans anti-intellectual/evangelical/wackos in this thread, and then you have all the republicans arguing that that's not who they are as a party. While I agree that it's a poor generalisation, it seems to me like the people defending the republicans are fighting the wrong battle here. True, many people be make bad generalisations, but all that this shows is that the republicans have a huge PR problem. If people all over the world think your party consists of wackos and anti-intellectuals then your primary problem is surely to fix your own party, not to convince the entire world that they are wrong.
The people making the generalisations are probably wrong but all they're doing is basing their opinions on the information given to them. When you have senators talking about legitimate rape and rape being god's gift, presidential candidates/spokespeople (was Trump ever a candidate?) spouting conspiracy theories, and in general just a large number of the visible republicans doing idiotic things, and you fail to distance yourself from it (if I remember correctly, Romney never distanced himself from the legitimate rape comments, for example) then how can you find it surprising if people infer that the entire party is like that? I can't remember the last time a democratic spokesperson was in the news because of something blatantly stupid that he said or did (maybe Weiner is the most recent). I'm sure it happens, but it happens with a considerably lower frequency.
I guess what I'm saying is that, if you put idiots in positions of power, and you continue supporting them even when they are acting like idiots, then you shouldn't be upset if the world thinks you're an idiot too (with you I refer to the republican party, not to the specific posters in this thread).
Exactly this. We in Europe see and hear all the screwups as some of the most prominent from the election. Given that it is republicans gnawing their legs off an unproportionally large amount of the time, republicans get a very bad reputation. That is probably one of the most blatent biases in european coverage of the US elections and it is not because of evil conspiracies or liberal bias (which does exist
Bias is mostly based on lack of understanding of abortion debate (why ever debate that, it has been almost completely settled here and it should be irrelevant given the laws and precedence.), creationism (not even debatable in europe that science and religion do not mix well) and deathpenalty (very few people in europe are for it. It is against international treaties and the ethics of it is dubious.)
Gun control is a far smaller issue for europeans than people think (owning a fully automatic assualt rifle is as far as I know completely legal in Denmark with the right permissions.) and the stance on immigration + increased military spending are also topics of european elections. There are other issues in US, that europeans shake their heads at, like the units being used in measurements and tort-levels + the lack of innocense untill proven guilty provision in certain cases, but those differences are too specific to really matter.
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EPT
