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On April 23 2012 02:38 tdt wrote:
I think everyone is taking a gamble. There is nothing robots and computers won't able to do in the future including surgury which they do now like on eyes and offshoring whole industries as well hurts prospects... but even they get replaced in poorer parts of the world with machines. Fact is we are going to have to find a way to deal with massive hords of unemployed people. My freind in Spain said no one can find jobs and that's a rich country comparitvly to like Mexico.
You gotta be smart, if nobody has a job, nobody has money, therefore nobody can buy the services/products. As machines replace some jobs people do, people just expand into other areas so we produce more, because everyone can afford more.
Anyways my program for mechanical engineering is going to cost me about $25,000/4 years, and this is at University of Calgary, and I'm going to be living at home next year. This is before any scholarships, which right now $5k seems like a good estimate of what I'll get, this still seems quite a lot to me compared to what others pay in the country I was born in (free), but compared to the US it's nothing.
I think there's a serious flaw in the mentality of people if education is being treated as a business instead of a high-quality public service. A good education is the foundation to a society, and the US SEVERELY lacks this in the public department. Privatized education is possibly the worst creation on the planet, instead focus should be placed on high-level public education so everyone has the same opportunity if they put in the effort, which is what democracy is about, or should be about at least.
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On April 18 2012 09:25 acerockolla wrote:
I don't like it either. Last time I read it, it only forgives the debt of those not earning beyond a certain threshold. What's the point of making bad decisions consequence free and penalizing those that are successful? If anything, they should simply make student loans harder to receive. Too many people see it as free money and gobble up as much as they can.
10% of your income for 10 years is still huge when you are making minimum wage. It just means that those leaving university not able (or capable) to get a job won't be completely boned their entire life. Being able to pay back $20,000 when making 7$ (Yes, the minimum wage in the USA is an absolute joke, it's even lower in some states) an hour in the USA is a terrible spot to be in. There is a reason there is so much poverty and crime compared to other first world countries.
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wowee.. In the uk we pay 9% of our earnings over £15,000, or £21,000 for new student loans taken out this year. And anything left after 30 years from the date the loan was taken out is forgiven...
The system seems pretty fair - I hardly notice it coming out of my pay, even as quite a high earner.
The spectacular amount of debt higher education puts you in in the USA completely bemuses me.. 
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On April 23 2012 01:13 mynameisgreat11 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 14:32 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2012 13:02 Trankuil wrote:
You do come off as a jackass, but I forgive you. You are in no place to assume anything of my situation. You dont give a lot of logic to your response, but I will try to expound on mine and a few other things.
I wasnt asking for your sympathy, nor do I want any. I was clearly stating my situation as an example. I understood the responsibility I took on when I accepted my invitation to a graduate program and the debt that I would have. I was not stating that I dont plan on paying my loans back, in fact...I plan on taking the 30 year payment plan and paying it back in 10 years unless situations permit or new ammendments to student loans occurs. I dont see your logic of how going to grad school to make 100k+ a year is financially irrespnsible for myself or my family? People are talking about sacrifice, well Im living in that sacrifice right now. I will more than pay off my debt not only monitarily, but through my contributions to the health care system and to every day people. but thats getting into another subject.
I said I had my reserves about the forgiveness plan, and that still holds true. I dont agree with people taking the easy way out of not paying back their responsibilities as do you. However there are things that need to be fixed within the system, and that is where I was trying to make the point of the education system being more the cause of the problem, leading to higher interest rates, bigger loans, and now starting in June thanks to Obama, I will start paying interest on my loans BEFORE I graduate. Now get this....how am I going to pay that interest? With my LOAN MONEY. Makes alot of sense right? The system is terrible. Did you also realize that a big chunk of the US debt owed is to itself and our own gold reserves? its not even to other countries. Thats how stupid our debt crisis is and why we probably will never come out of it, because its our own debt we owe to ourselves that makes the dollar weaker on the global market. This is also getting a bit off topic from the student loan forgiveness act so let me bring it back...
I think the purpose of this bill was to make it clear that student loan debt is out of control and action needs to be taken somewhere, not just giving people free passes to waive debt. This bill most likely will not pass as is or even at all, but a better bill will be presented because of it that will help solve not only the rediculous amount of debt that the future of America is in, but to hopefully improve our education system while still providing a competitive chance at making a good living. That is the main point I was trying to make in my first post, I apologize for not making it more clear. As I said in that post I feel that this bill has great intentions for the short and long term, although this bill is by no means foolproof or perfect. Actually I'm most definitely in a place to assume things, because you posted (although limited) information on your current situation on a forum, which is meant for a discussion. To say I shouldn't assume things is silly in itself. Despite that, sorry again for coming off as a jackass. The way you structured your post most definitely sounded as if you were fishing for sympathy (stating you had to take max loans to support your wife and child as well). I don't think it's financially responsible because I think it's quite the gamble - if you don't get a job your family is in quite the crap situation, so personally I think it's more financially responsible to get a job after you get your undergrad. That's simply how I view it. Just because you want to make a lot of money doesn't somehow mean you're financially responsible.... you made an investment in your future, but that investment to me is edging towards the "all eggs in one basket" if you ask me. That's my issue. To each his own however, and best of luck getting a job. It's not like I don't want the investment to pay off  . You can make baseless assumptions because he didn't outline his entire life story in his original post? Good to know. You say his decision to go to grad school is quite the gamble, and that you think its more responsible to just start working out of your undergrad. Many jobs in many markets 100% require more than a bachelors. I had an EE undergrad, but the field I specialize generally requires masters or Ph.D degrees. It depends on your field, and its not just true for liberal arts degrees. I won't make assumptions about why you are so aggressive against people who take out student loans, but I will say this. You seem to have found a job out of undergrad that makes you happy and pays well. Congrats. For most people, this is not the case. I don't think you have a right to shit on people because they were stuck in a situation where their two choices were either A) Work a job they hate and/or doesn't pay well for their entire life, or B) go massively into debt to get the education they need for a job they want. My government provided student loans have 6.7% interest. My field is small, and the cheapest school that offered what I needed charges 35k/year for tuition. Every other school I considered was similarly priced. Its a shit situation.
I'm saying everyone has to make assumptions because they don't have the entire life story. That's how it works. You go off the information given. It's also why I clearly stated that they were assumptions and very well had the potential to not be true, or completely accurate.
I said yes, his decision to go to grad school, at the very least, seems to be quite the gamble. I'm not saying it's overall. But he's someone that took out loans not just to support himself through schooling, but his wife and child apparently. That was the issue I had.
My personal situation isn't as relevant as the fact the vast majority of people that are left jobless or underemployed have at least one of the following traits
1) Didn't even go to any of the career fairs/apply to at least 50 (and that's a hell of a small number) jobs. Most didn't even apply to 3.
2) Took out more student loans than they needed so they could live "comfortably." This may have been extra money to socialize, party, buy a disneyland pass, eat out at a restaurant 2-3 times a week, etc.
3) Didn't have a job during college for a decent duration of time.
My student loans are 6.7% interest as well. All I can say is that I think it's stupid, personally (and I know a lot of people disagree with me), that people are so set on going into one particular profession. You need to be flexible and take what you can get. If your field is small and you have 35k tuition, maybe you should have reconsidered going into that field, even if it's what you want to do. I'm not saying you need to take a job that you hate, but life doesn't necessarily work out so you'll get your #1 job either. If you had simply gone to a public university you could have avoided that entire situation you faced now, no? Or gone to a CC first?
Overall, if you don't have any money to start with, and you know your dream job requires a PhD, maybe you should realize that it's not feasible to get your dream job so soon. Maybe you'll have to do other stuff in the meantime, then go back to school, etc.
On April 23 2012 04:35 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 09:25 acerockolla wrote:
I don't like it either. Last time I read it, it only forgives the debt of those not earning beyond a certain threshold. What's the point of making bad decisions consequence free and penalizing those that are successful? If anything, they should simply make student loans harder to receive. Too many people see it as free money and gobble up as much as they can. 10% of your income for 10 years is still huge when you are making minimum wage. It just means that those leaving university not able (or capable) to get a job won't be completely boned their entire life. Being able to pay back $20,000 when making 7$ (Yes, the minimum wage in the USA is an absolute joke, it's even lower in some states) an hour in the USA is a terrible spot to be in. There is a reason there is so much poverty and crime compared to other first world countries.
It wouldn't be 10% of your wages. For someone on minimum wage the payment would be virtually zero.
On April 23 2012 02:28 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 15:22 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2012 14:47 tdt wrote:
Co-signed!
I think it's fair. Back when my parents went to school you could declare bakrupcty on them - now you are chained to debt for life in a market with 50% youth unemployment. Plus the fact school should be free anyway like any civilized country. They actually tax people who have it and make investment in thier kids rather than chaining them to debt for life out of the starting gate. Except unemployment rate is no where near that much. It's less than 10%. Some estimates say it's between 5.5-7.5% unemployment for recent college grads. Which is at the highest it's been in decades, yes. But it's not quite as bad as this thread is portraying it. "And, according to Time Magazine, 54% of all Americans between the ages of 18 to 24 are unemployed." http://www.wbez.org/blogs/bez/2012-04/young-educated-and-unemployed-98378
Those numbers are heavily skewed by high school dropouts and high school graduates without any college degrees, who have been hit significantly, significantly harder than college graduates in terms of employment.
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I do not understand why people pay $30~$40k a year for Uni and major in fields where there are no jobs.
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On April 23 2012 07:25 phar wrote:
I do not understand why people pay $30~$40k a year for Uni and major in fields where there are no jobs.
Because no one has perfect foresight.
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On April 23 2012 09:22 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 07:25 phar wrote:
I do not understand why people pay $30~$40k a year for Uni and major in fields where there are no jobs. Because no one has perfect foresight.
While there are plenty of people who indeed can't predict the market, etc. Its hard to feel bad for the jobless history major that took out loans. That segment at least. I mean its true that it used to just be that a degree qualified you for things, but at the same time you're building a near zero safety net with it. You're at the bottom of the food chain of bachelors degree holders.
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On April 23 2012 04:12 politik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 03:54 -_-Quails wrote:On April 23 2012 03:06 politik wrote:On April 23 2012 02:58 Humposaurus wrote:On April 23 2012 02:54 politik wrote:On April 22 2012 16:06 W2 wrote:
I'm going to be $200k+ in debt when I graduate, which will probably mean getting ass raped by Sallie Mae for 20 years if not for this bill.
I know it is not fair to those who did paid off their loans completely. But let's get some perspective. From what I gather, next year the best loan you can get, which they call goverment subsidized, is at 6.8% interest. That adds up fast...
So what's the current status on this bill? So you made a horrible/stupid financial decision and now you want everyone else to chip in and bail you out? Should we do the same for people who fall in debt from gambling? Think of the consequences of this. Imagine if the world had never been introduced to Hardball with Keanu Reeves. Is that the kind of world you want to live in? IMO student shouldn't have to worry about financial decisions, society should take care of this as a whole. The younger generation should not be held back just because they/their family cannot afford proper education. And gambling debts/credit debts are very different then student loan debts. And we should have bubblegum houses and streets paved with chocolate and everyone should be a millionaire. Other countries are doing a much better job than the US is doing. Also both bubblegum houses sound more like the creatures of nightmares. Also no other countries have their post-secondary paid for by the government but run and profited from by private institutions. Do you know why? Because it's a terrible fucking disastrous idea. Tuition would be $50k/year within five years and people will still attend because they won't have to pay for it. The USA will end up paying twice as much as any other country for a far inferior system.
I'm not sure what a post-secondary is. In fact I'm not even sure I know what you're saying at all. However, if you are saying what I think you're saying, I'd just like to point out that education is free in Sweden. You are even paid to study, and have access to a generous 1,5% interest loan on top if you want it (which, if you live frugally, will cover everything).
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I'm not sure what a post-secondary is. In fact I'm not even sure I know what you're saying at all. However, if you are saying what I think you're saying, I'd just like to point out that education is free in Sweden. You are even paid to study, and have access to a generous 1,5% interest loan on top if you want it (which, if you live frugally, will cover everything).
While that may be true in Sweden, and perhaps many countries of the world, I would like to point out that most of the best universities in the world are located in the United States. People come from all over the globe to attend school here.
Now, we could argue about the price of education all day, but I can guarantee that these institutions would not be as highly ranked if education here was free. To be the best, you have to attract top talent (ie: the best faculty in the world), have the best facilities, and have global outreach. That sort of thing is not cheap.
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On April 23 2012 09:37 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 09:22 Lightwip wrote:On April 23 2012 07:25 phar wrote:
I do not understand why people pay $30~$40k a year for Uni and major in fields where there are no jobs. Because no one has perfect foresight. While there are plenty of people who indeed can't predict the market, etc. Its hard to feel bad for the jobless history major that took out loans. That segment at least. I mean its true that it used to just be that a degree qualified you for things, but at the same time you're building a near zero safety net with it. You're at the bottom of the food chain of bachelors degree holders.
Of course. There's no reason not to do extensive research. I know I did when I planned out my career path.
But for something like med school, law school, business etc., you could easily wind up with a massive debt just because you aren't prepared for a sudden downturn in employment.
The best and brightest lawyers, doctors, businessmen, engineers, teachers, and even humanities/history majors will find their way around a poor job market, and probably be able to avoid loans with the help of merit scholarships and work. But the best and brightest are a select few, and those who suddenly get the short end of a change in job openings shouldn't be doomed to spend their entire life paying off debt off a minuscule salary.
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On April 19 2012 06:26 Tien wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 05:05 GrayArea wrote:
As a future grad student who is going to be going into 300k+ debt, I can easily say that it's simply ridiculous how high tuition and interest rates are. If they are going to be putting us this deep into the hole, they need more programs that offer loan forgiveness. Signed the petition. You don't truly appreciate how much debt, work, time, effort it all is until you actually go into that much debt yourself. Support this. How many years did you spend in university and what kind of a degree did you get? Unless you got a degree with actual job prospects and can be paid over 100K / year, than you've wasted 300K$ and should be responsible for it yourself. And if you can make over 100K a year with whatever degree you get, you should still pay for it yourself.
I will be going to medical school. Sure, I will be able to pay it off, but it will take me 10 years, if not more, to do it.
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On April 20 2012 06:45 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 15:06 FuGGu wrote:On April 19 2012 10:05 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 19 2012 08:25 FuGGu wrote:On April 18 2012 09:20 sc2superfan101 wrote:
i dont like it. no one forgave my parents student loans that they spent years working off, so why does anyone else deserve it? balderdash. We pay significantly more than our parents ever had to....you're trolling right? kids trolling. you take out higher loans and you will pay more, sure, that's how the world works. kid? yep, that's me. just a tiny little youngin... edit: my father finished law school with ~$65,000 in student loans. the job he got with the DA afterwards started at ~$20,000, the job now starts at ~$60,000. say you go through law school with ~$200,000 of debt, you would be paying about the same amount compared to your income that my parents did. Really? So according to you there is no loan crisis? You think the loan situation in this country is the same? ... Let me answers this for you: there is a new loan crisis. Student debt is near 1 trillion in this country. While your father's law school debts were pricey back in the day, he is a lawyer, and he is blessed with a high paying job that can do that. Nowadays, people getting four year undergraduate degrees (who don't make as much as lawyers) are paying exorbitant amounts of moneys and aren't getting jobs that pay like lawyers. Some are making 40,000 dollars a year after college....if someone went to the generic large public institution in my state and had parents who couldn't help them afford it they would be 88,000 dollars in debt. That will take a long time to pay off with a 40,000 dollar year job. (That's assuming they get a job - unemployment has been pretty bad recently with tumbling economy, you know? Not like 15 years ago.) Do you understand? blessed with a high paying job, huh? yeah, he sure was blessed. had nothing to do with working hard and busting his ass. nope, it was all luck of the draw. $40,000/yr with $88,000 of debt. my parents had $65,000 of debt, with a $22,000/yr job, 3 kids with another on the way. my mom had to drop out of school and work two full-time jobs while pregnant and taking care of an infant. we had some pretty crappy times, but we got through it. took my parents 25 years to pay off their student loans. it will take them another 25 years to pay off the mortgage on the house, if they ever are able to. so you'll forgive me if i'm not exactly sympathetic to someone who is going to have to pay less in proportion to their income than my parents did and most likely doesn't have kids. everyone in this thread seems to have some idea that life was just a breeze before 2008 and college was so cheap that anyone at all could just waltz in and get it, and that there was ninety jobs for every one college graduate. it's funny to hear the excuses. "it will take a long time to pay off!!" yeah. it will. you may be in debt for the rest of your life, if you weren't careful. and you know what? that sucks, but that's the way stuff works. you take out a loan, you have to pay it back. i don't care what excuses you have, because everyone has excuses: if you did not think you could or would pay back your loans then you should not have taken them. but you did take them. OK, that's fine, you'll have to be uncomfortable. but now you want all the people who did pay their debts, and who did keep their promises, to come in and save you from your own bad choices. you can give me any reason or excuse why we should that you want, but i'm not gonna buy it. earlier someone said, basically: "what a depressing life! i wouldn't want to live like that!" in response to someone saying that they may have to take 20 years paying off their student loans. can i laugh or should i cry at that? so my parents, who took 25 years to pay off their debts, are supposed to now foot the bill so that you don't have to take 20 years to pay off your debt? so I, who am doing everything i can to keep my loans extremely low, have no entertainment budget whatsoever and have no car, am supposed to foot the bill for someone who took out over $100,000 in loans and spent every penny of it in 4 years or less? you want to talk about fairness? how is that fair to me? how is that fair to my parents? no, but you see "lawyer" and you think that we're just swimming in money and we could totally spare some. never-mind that my parents are in huge debt themselves due to bad decisions in their lifetimes, but have not once asked for a handout or forgiveness, and won't get it even if they wanted it. never mind the fact that you made the choice to take out loans and you made the choice to pursue a degree in an area that didn't give you benefit, never mind that none of your debt is anyone elses responsibility. let's just force the responsibility onto other people so that you don't have to take a long time paying back your loans. let's just give everyone grants, because a loan that doesn't have to be payed back is a grant. i have heard all the sob stories. i have heard all of the tales of woe about there being no jobs and no money and crushing debt. i have heard all of it and i sympathize, but at the same time, i don't care. taking care of you and your debts is not my job, is not my parent's job, and is not CEO Richy Rich's job either, and forcing that responsibility on us is not only unfair, it makes no economic sense. colleges will have no incentive whatsoever to lower tuition and costs, and working people who are driving the economy will have another burden added upon their already weighted shoulders. if it sounds harsh and mean, it's because the world is harsh and mean. for the love of christ, how was that not taught to you people in college?
Difference between you and I is that you accept that the world has to be harsh and mean. I don't believe it HAS to be that way.
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On April 23 2012 09:37 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 09:22 Lightwip wrote:On April 23 2012 07:25 phar wrote:
I do not understand why people pay $30~$40k a year for Uni and major in fields where there are no jobs. Because no one has perfect foresight. While there are plenty of people who indeed can't predict the market, etc. Its hard to feel bad for the jobless history major that took out loans. That segment at least. I mean its true that it used to just be that a degree qualified you for things, but at the same time you're building a near zero safety net with it. You're at the bottom of the food chain of bachelors degree holders.
The whole thing about your staple liberal arts degree being the majority of the unemployed is a myth. Read earlier in the thread.
By the way, history majors have some very high employment rates coming out of college.
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On April 23 2012 15:50 FuGGu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 06:45 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 19 2012 15:06 FuGGu wrote:On April 19 2012 10:05 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 19 2012 08:25 FuGGu wrote:On April 18 2012 09:20 sc2superfan101 wrote:
i dont like it. no one forgave my parents student loans that they spent years working off, so why does anyone else deserve it? balderdash. We pay significantly more than our parents ever had to....you're trolling right? kids trolling. you take out higher loans and you will pay more, sure, that's how the world works. kid? yep, that's me. just a tiny little youngin... edit: my father finished law school with ~$65,000 in student loans. the job he got with the DA afterwards started at ~$20,000, the job now starts at ~$60,000. say you go through law school with ~$200,000 of debt, you would be paying about the same amount compared to your income that my parents did. Really? So according to you there is no loan crisis? You think the loan situation in this country is the same? ... Let me answers this for you: there is a new loan crisis. Student debt is near 1 trillion in this country. While your father's law school debts were pricey back in the day, he is a lawyer, and he is blessed with a high paying job that can do that. Nowadays, people getting four year undergraduate degrees (who don't make as much as lawyers) are paying exorbitant amounts of moneys and aren't getting jobs that pay like lawyers. Some are making 40,000 dollars a year after college....if someone went to the generic large public institution in my state and had parents who couldn't help them afford it they would be 88,000 dollars in debt. That will take a long time to pay off with a 40,000 dollar year job. (That's assuming they get a job - unemployment has been pretty bad recently with tumbling economy, you know? Not like 15 years ago.) Do you understand? blessed with a high paying job, huh? yeah, he sure was blessed. had nothing to do with working hard and busting his ass. nope, it was all luck of the draw. $40,000/yr with $88,000 of debt. my parents had $65,000 of debt, with a $22,000/yr job, 3 kids with another on the way. my mom had to drop out of school and work two full-time jobs while pregnant and taking care of an infant. we had some pretty crappy times, but we got through it. took my parents 25 years to pay off their student loans. it will take them another 25 years to pay off the mortgage on the house, if they ever are able to. so you'll forgive me if i'm not exactly sympathetic to someone who is going to have to pay less in proportion to their income than my parents did and most likely doesn't have kids. everyone in this thread seems to have some idea that life was just a breeze before 2008 and college was so cheap that anyone at all could just waltz in and get it, and that there was ninety jobs for every one college graduate. it's funny to hear the excuses. "it will take a long time to pay off!!" yeah. it will. you may be in debt for the rest of your life, if you weren't careful. and you know what? that sucks, but that's the way stuff works. you take out a loan, you have to pay it back. i don't care what excuses you have, because everyone has excuses: if you did not think you could or would pay back your loans then you should not have taken them. but you did take them. OK, that's fine, you'll have to be uncomfortable. but now you want all the people who did pay their debts, and who did keep their promises, to come in and save you from your own bad choices. you can give me any reason or excuse why we should that you want, but i'm not gonna buy it. earlier someone said, basically: "what a depressing life! i wouldn't want to live like that!" in response to someone saying that they may have to take 20 years paying off their student loans. can i laugh or should i cry at that? so my parents, who took 25 years to pay off their debts, are supposed to now foot the bill so that you don't have to take 20 years to pay off your debt? so I, who am doing everything i can to keep my loans extremely low, have no entertainment budget whatsoever and have no car, am supposed to foot the bill for someone who took out over $100,000 in loans and spent every penny of it in 4 years or less? you want to talk about fairness? how is that fair to me? how is that fair to my parents? no, but you see "lawyer" and you think that we're just swimming in money and we could totally spare some. never-mind that my parents are in huge debt themselves due to bad decisions in their lifetimes, but have not once asked for a handout or forgiveness, and won't get it even if they wanted it. never mind the fact that you made the choice to take out loans and you made the choice to pursue a degree in an area that didn't give you benefit, never mind that none of your debt is anyone elses responsibility. let's just force the responsibility onto other people so that you don't have to take a long time paying back your loans. let's just give everyone grants, because a loan that doesn't have to be payed back is a grant. i have heard all the sob stories. i have heard all of the tales of woe about there being no jobs and no money and crushing debt. i have heard all of it and i sympathize, but at the same time, i don't care. taking care of you and your debts is not my job, is not my parent's job, and is not CEO Richy Rich's job either, and forcing that responsibility on us is not only unfair, it makes no economic sense. colleges will have no incentive whatsoever to lower tuition and costs, and working people who are driving the economy will have another burden added upon their already weighted shoulders. if it sounds harsh and mean, it's because the world is harsh and mean. for the love of christ, how was that not taught to you people in college? Difference between you and I is that you accept that the world has to be harsh and mean. I don't believe it HAS to be that way.
No, I think the difference is that he sees the world as it IS, and you don't.
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most people waste money in college, they get all these loans and just party and play video games, then when they graduate nobody wants to hire them cause they had terrible grades.
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On April 24 2012 00:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 09:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 23 2012 09:22 Lightwip wrote:On April 23 2012 07:25 phar wrote:
I do not understand why people pay $30~$40k a year for Uni and major in fields where there are no jobs. Because no one has perfect foresight. While there are plenty of people who indeed can't predict the market, etc. Its hard to feel bad for the jobless history major that took out loans. That segment at least. I mean its true that it used to just be that a degree qualified you for things, but at the same time you're building a near zero safety net with it. You're at the bottom of the food chain of bachelors degree holders. The whole thing about your staple liberal arts degree being the majority of the unemployed is a myth. Read earlier in the thread. By the way, history majors have some very high employment rates coming out of college.
Are we reading the same statistics? >50% of liberal arts degree holders (undergrad) < age 25 have no jobs.
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On April 24 2012 00:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 09:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 23 2012 09:22 Lightwip wrote:On April 23 2012 07:25 phar wrote:
I do not understand why people pay $30~$40k a year for Uni and major in fields where there are no jobs. Because no one has perfect foresight. While there are plenty of people who indeed can't predict the market, etc. Its hard to feel bad for the jobless history major that took out loans. That segment at least. I mean its true that it used to just be that a degree qualified you for things, but at the same time you're building a near zero safety net with it. You're at the bottom of the food chain of bachelors degree holders. The whole thing about your staple liberal arts degree being the majority of the unemployed is a myth. Read earlier in the thread. By the way, history majors have some very high employment rates coming out of college.
Also, for us high and mighty business majors who get off on being the step above liberal arts in the degree food chain, I urge you to not completely discount what liberal arts does for all students. I can proudly say that studying philosophy has enhanced my abilities as an accountant, but I'm only one story. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903285704576556553753330210.html
Here's the article from earlier in the thread. It's from Jan 2012. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-06/postrel-how-art-history-majors-power-the-u-s-.html
Though I do agree with most liberal arts degree bashing in the thread, I only do so because I recognized its drop in value while I was attending school during and after the 2008 crash. I don't think it's fair to hold that standard of "I saw it coming why didn't you" for everybody because what about the Freshman class of 2008 who in 2006 and 2007 where told by their parents, teachers, pop culture, and society that they MUST go to college or flounder financially. There are a million different scenarios that played out during that crash and once the dust settled, we saw that the Liberal Arts majors are now deemed worth "less" than other majors. There is no easy way to reverse this mentality that college is essential because it is has been so deeply engraved in our culture by the baby boomers and their children.
Just to tease out a personal antidote and help illustrate a bit, back in 2007 when I was considering which colleges to go to, my reasoning for not attending a JC was because that's where I thought failures went. That's where I thought the people who messed up during high school regained their footing. This way of thinking permeated throughout most of my high school peers because a) it held a lot of truth at the time since most students from my very good high school went to college, and b) I had been taught throughout my education that college is where you go if you succeeded (to any degree) in high school.
Obviously I do not view JC the same anymore, but I clearly remember that being a reason for me NOT to go to a JC in 2007. I think what we are witnessing now as the student debt bubble readies to burst is a sharp change in ideology and eventually consumers (parents, students, etc) will view college more as an investment rather than a necessity. Unfortunately, this clashes with the old wisdom of college education automatically leads to a better life. This idea that college is necessary will take a long time to uproot out of our culture and be replaced. It's also sad because I believe that college can be the gateway to an advanced civilization, but not in its current form.
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On April 23 2012 04:35 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 09:25 acerockolla wrote:
I don't like it either. Last time I read it, it only forgives the debt of those not earning beyond a certain threshold. What's the point of making bad decisions consequence free and penalizing those that are successful? If anything, they should simply make student loans harder to receive. Too many people see it as free money and gobble up as much as they can. 10% of your income for 10 years is still huge when you are making minimum wage. It just means that those leaving university not able (or capable) to get a job won't be completely boned their entire life. Being able to pay back $20,000 when making 7$ (Yes, the minimum wage in the USA is an absolute joke, it's even lower in some states) an hour in the USA is a terrible spot to be in. There is a reason there is so much poverty and crime compared to other first world countries.
...I knew the minimum wage was low in the US, but that's insanely low. How do you even make rent on that kind of wage?
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On April 24 2012 03:20 -_-Quails wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 04:35 Figgy wrote:On April 18 2012 09:25 acerockolla wrote:
I don't like it either. Last time I read it, it only forgives the debt of those not earning beyond a certain threshold. What's the point of making bad decisions consequence free and penalizing those that are successful? If anything, they should simply make student loans harder to receive. Too many people see it as free money and gobble up as much as they can. 10% of your income for 10 years is still huge when you are making minimum wage. It just means that those leaving university not able (or capable) to get a job won't be completely boned their entire life. Being able to pay back $20,000 when making 7$ (Yes, the minimum wage in the USA is an absolute joke, it's even lower in some states) an hour in the USA is a terrible spot to be in. There is a reason there is so much poverty and crime compared to other first world countries. ...I knew the minimum wage was low in the US, but that's insanely low. How do you even make rent on that kind of wage?
It's worse in states like Georgia where I live. There are a few others too where the minimum wage is $5.15/hour. That's $2.10 lower then the federal minimum wage. Blows my fucking mind. What the hell is the point of having a federal minimum wage if states can set there own?
I'm pretty sure people around here working minimum wage live with their parents. I don't see how its possible to afford even a basic apartment by yourself.
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EPT
