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On April 22 2012 16:06 W2 wrote:
I'm going to be $200k+ in debt when I graduate, which will probably mean getting ass raped by Sallie Mae for 20 years if not for this bill.
I know it is not fair to those who did paid off their loans completely. But let's get some perspective. From what I gather, next year the best loan you can get, which they call goverment subsidized, is at 6.8% interest. That adds up fast...
So what's the current status on this bill?
So you made a horrible/stupid financial decision and now you want everyone else to chip in and bail you out? Should we do the same for people who fall in debt from gambling? Think of the consequences of this. Imagine if the world had never been introduced to Hardball with Keanu Reeves. Is that the kind of world you want to live in?
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On April 23 2012 02:54 politik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 16:06 W2 wrote:
I'm going to be $200k+ in debt when I graduate, which will probably mean getting ass raped by Sallie Mae for 20 years if not for this bill.
I know it is not fair to those who did paid off their loans completely. But let's get some perspective. From what I gather, next year the best loan you can get, which they call goverment subsidized, is at 6.8% interest. That adds up fast...
So what's the current status on this bill? So you made a horrible/stupid financial decision and now you want everyone else to chip in and bail you out? Should we do the same for people who fall in debt from gambling? Think of the consequences of this. Imagine if the world had never been introduced to Hardball with Keannu Reaves. Is that the kind of world you want to live in?
Gambling is not a necessary prerequisite to meaningful employment. College is.
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On April 23 2012 02:50 mynameisgreat11 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 02:49 Grimmyman123 wrote:On April 23 2012 02:48 -_-Quails wrote:On April 23 2012 02:41 Diizzy wrote:
am i the only one who likes this... ? You aren't the only one who thinks that this is a good idea. Several people have voiced support for it earlier in the thread. You would know this if you had read the thread. Who would support such stupdendous drabble? The very students who want to cheat their way out of paying for their financial contracts. Whats your situation Grimmy? Did you go to college? Did you take loans?
From a previous post I made in this thread:
If I, with no post secondary education, can go from living on welfare, and quite litterally wanting to off myself because I could not even feed myself on $600 a MONTH to cover my living expenses (Rent, Food, Utilities, laundry, public transit) and I managed to find meager employ, then better, and then even better emply to where I now rent an entire house to myself, have a stable job I enjoy (enough) and a fair vehicle to drive and recreational activities I REALLY enjoy - then there is hope for anyone in finding a job then enjoy. Some will find a job they LOVE. Some will find one that pays the bills.
I did not go to college or university, and I work my ass off to pay my bills and debts. I've paid off every loan I have ever had, and I am looking at now going to college or university next year as an adult mature student. When I take out my loans, I know what I am getting into, and fruitfull employment or not after I graduate, I fully intend and will pay those loans off. The banks responsibility is to pay for my schooling - my responsibilty is to PAY IT BACK.
I do however have every intent and plans to save enough to pay for my tuition in cash. No loans.
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On April 23 2012 02:47 Grimmyman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 02:47 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 23 2012 02:45 Grimmyman123 wrote:On April 23 2012 02:28 tdt wrote:On April 22 2012 15:22 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2012 14:47 tdt wrote:
Co-signed!
I think it's fair. Back when my parents went to school you could declare bakrupcty on them - now you are chained to debt for life in a market with 50% youth unemployment. Plus the fact school should be free anyway like any civilized country. They actually tax people who have it and make investment in thier kids rather than chaining them to debt for life out of the starting gate. Except unemployment rate is no where near that much. It's less than 10%. Some estimates say it's between 5.5-7.5% unemployment for recent college grads. Which is at the highest it's been in decades, yes. But it's not quite as bad as this thread is portraying it. "And, according to Time Magazine, 54% of all Americans between the ages of 18 to 24 are unemployed." http://www.wbez.org/blogs/bez/2012-04/young-educated-and-unemployed-98378 Statistics can say what ever you want them to say, it's the lack of information which says it. What is the related statistic which shows how many of those unemployed persons between 18 and 24 choose NOT to work because they are in College or University? -------- If you are a student, and you are smart enough to get into university, you are smart enough to realise the contract you are signing into for the financing. I do not care if there is no work for you when you finish your schooling - you should have thought about that when you were selecting your courses and field of education. I also do not care about your level of perceived poverty or your hardships. Get employment for the short term to pay the bills, and seek your dream job later. Just because a student is unsuccessful after school does not mean that those taxpayers which DO WORK should pick up their slack and pay off their debts. You sign into it? You pay it. I don't care if it takes you 50 years and you make good on your loan when you retire with your last paycheck. Be responsible. Make good on your very first major financial agreement. I don't care about about people who don't have sympathy for those who are in worse situations than them. Their perceived suffering is NOT an Excuse to not pay their loans. They knew and know what they were getting into.
Yes, I'm sure the host of students with massive debt out of college knew to expect record levels of unemployment out of undergrad, record setting increases in tuition, and were fully made aware of how student loans offer the least loanee protection out of any loan in the financial spectrum. I'm sure they expected government loan interest rates that were supposedly static to increase, while also being made aware of future massive cuts to state higher ed budgets that directly cut into scholarships/aid available. I'm sure........
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On April 23 2012 02:54 politik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 16:06 W2 wrote:
I'm going to be $200k+ in debt when I graduate, which will probably mean getting ass raped by Sallie Mae for 20 years if not for this bill.
I know it is not fair to those who did paid off their loans completely. But let's get some perspective. From what I gather, next year the best loan you can get, which they call goverment subsidized, is at 6.8% interest. That adds up fast...
So what's the current status on this bill? So you made a horrible/stupid financial decision and now you want everyone else to chip in and bail you out? Should we do the same for people who fall in debt from gambling? Think of the consequences of this. Imagine if the world had never been introduced to Hardball with Keanu Reeves. Is that the kind of world you want to live in?
IMO student shouldn't have to worry about financial decisions, society should take care of this as a whole. The younger generation should not be held back just because they/their family cannot afford proper education. And gambling debts/credit debts are very different then student loan debts.
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I think the first part of the bill is the only one that matters but it's problematic because it creates an independent sliding scale for university and an accounting nightmare. It's not really clear what "forgiveness" means for the university. Are they forced to just write off the loss or does the government pay off the rest for you?
The reason why that matters is that you have to follow the money. Someone has to pay for that education and the resources devoted to it. So either the students pay for it, the taxpayers pay for it, or the university pays for it. Since the government already pays off the interest on subsidized loans, the taxpayers are already on the hook to a certain degree for it.
In turn, this is important to see how the system will change. If you say only the taxpayers and university should pay and the students shouldn't have to, then universities will probably revert back to the days when they were only accessible to the rich or to the future rich (very talented and motivated kids), closing off access to young people who don't show as much promise and sending them off to the working class, like the UK.
The way the system is now, students have the freedom to study anything they want but they're given enough rope to hang themselves with debt for a very long time. It's worth pointing out that Barack Obama himself still had law school debt just before his presidential run, and he only managed to pay it off because he wrote two best-selling books.
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I think this is a terrible idea.
I worked my ass off in school to get a marketable degree and a high-paying job after graduation. I will be able to pay off my $32k in student loans in ~2 years. There are many people in school who decide to major in underwater basket weaving, or blow through $40k in government money by partying 4 days a week. We should not be responsible for paying off their debt.
Instead, perhaps we should educate people about the type of degree they are getting and the fact that loans are not your money. They are somebody elses money, and they should be repaid.
My word of advice to those of you in school: Live frugally, because when you graduate you will be paying for two people to live.
1. Your post-graduate self
2. Yourself while you were in school
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On April 23 2012 02:56 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 02:47 Grimmyman123 wrote:On April 23 2012 02:47 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 23 2012 02:45 Grimmyman123 wrote:On April 23 2012 02:28 tdt wrote:On April 22 2012 15:22 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2012 14:47 tdt wrote:
Co-signed!
I think it's fair. Back when my parents went to school you could declare bakrupcty on them - now you are chained to debt for life in a market with 50% youth unemployment. Plus the fact school should be free anyway like any civilized country. They actually tax people who have it and make investment in thier kids rather than chaining them to debt for life out of the starting gate. Except unemployment rate is no where near that much. It's less than 10%. Some estimates say it's between 5.5-7.5% unemployment for recent college grads. Which is at the highest it's been in decades, yes. But it's not quite as bad as this thread is portraying it. "And, according to Time Magazine, 54% of all Americans between the ages of 18 to 24 are unemployed." http://www.wbez.org/blogs/bez/2012-04/young-educated-and-unemployed-98378 Statistics can say what ever you want them to say, it's the lack of information which says it. What is the related statistic which shows how many of those unemployed persons between 18 and 24 choose NOT to work because they are in College or University? -------- If you are a student, and you are smart enough to get into university, you are smart enough to realise the contract you are signing into for the financing. I do not care if there is no work for you when you finish your schooling - you should have thought about that when you were selecting your courses and field of education. I also do not care about your level of perceived poverty or your hardships. Get employment for the short term to pay the bills, and seek your dream job later. Just because a student is unsuccessful after school does not mean that those taxpayers which DO WORK should pick up their slack and pay off their debts. You sign into it? You pay it. I don't care if it takes you 50 years and you make good on your loan when you retire with your last paycheck. Be responsible. Make good on your very first major financial agreement. I don't care about about people who don't have sympathy for those who are in worse situations than them. Their perceived suffering is NOT an Excuse to not pay their loans. They knew and know what they were getting into. Yes, I'm sure the host of students with massive debt out of college knew to expect record levels of unemployment out of undergrad, record setting increases tuition, and were fully made aware of how student loans offer the least loaner protection out of any loan in the financial spectrum. I'm sure they expected government loan interest rates that were supposedly static to increase, while also being made aware of future massive cuts to state higher ed budgets that directly cut into scholarships/aid available. I'm sure........
These are the very people which qualify for the very best education that the continent has to offer. They are smart enough to realise and see the recession, and make suitable choices to secure employment in a sector which is not as easily affected by the recession.
This job market is not going to last for another 5 years. Nor did it occur overnight.
I, being an employee was affected by the recession, lost my job in the process of it due to a lack of commercial demand. I found and secured employment in an industry which was working around and with the recession.
If I can do it, why cannot an individual who is supposedly more intelligent than I and has the education to 'prove' it, cannot do the same?
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On April 23 2012 02:56 Grimmyman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 02:50 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 23 2012 02:49 Grimmyman123 wrote:On April 23 2012 02:48 -_-Quails wrote:On April 23 2012 02:41 Diizzy wrote:
am i the only one who likes this... ? You aren't the only one who thinks that this is a good idea. Several people have voiced support for it earlier in the thread. You would know this if you had read the thread. Who would support such stupdendous drabble? The very students who want to cheat their way out of paying for their financial contracts. Whats your situation Grimmy? Did you go to college? Did you take loans? From a previous post I made in this thread: Show nested quote +If I, with no post secondary education, can go from living on welfare, and quite litterally wanting to off myself because I could not even feed myself on $600 a MONTH to cover my living expenses (Rent, Food, Utilities, laundry, public transit) and I managed to find meager employ, then better, and then even better emply to where I now rent an entire house to myself, have a stable job I enjoy (enough) and a fair vehicle to drive and recreational activities I REALLY enjoy - then there is hope for anyone in finding a job then enjoy. Some will find a job they LOVE. Some will find one that pays the bills. I did not go to college or university, and I work my ass off to pay my bills and debts. I've paid off every loan I have ever had, and I am looking at now going to college or university next year as an adult mature student. When I take out my loans, I know what I am getting into, and fruitfull employment or not after I graduate, I fully intend and will pay those loans off. The banks responsibility is to pay for my schooling - my responsibilty is to PAY IT BACK. I do however have every intent and plans to save enough to pay for my tuition in cash. No loans.
I agree with you that this bill is unfair; you and I shouldn't pay off the loans of other people.
That being said:
1- There is no way to predict whether an education will pay off. My EE degree was supposed to guarantee me certain jobs and salaries. By the time I graduate, shit was different, for the worse.
2- Its 18 year old kids making this decision. Their parents, their teachers, everybody has been setting them up for college their entire lives.
3- Interest rates have soared during my education experience. I started out with interest rates of 2-3 percent. Now, my government provided loans have an interest rate of 6.7%. Do I quit my education midway with nothing to show for it, or do I suck it up and pay the ridiculous rates?
4- Your situation is not universal. Given how shitty the job market is, maybe try to have a little sympathy for people who work hard and are still getting fucked every day.
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On April 23 2012 02:58 Humposaurus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 02:54 politik wrote:On April 22 2012 16:06 W2 wrote:
I'm going to be $200k+ in debt when I graduate, which will probably mean getting ass raped by Sallie Mae for 20 years if not for this bill.
I know it is not fair to those who did paid off their loans completely. But let's get some perspective. From what I gather, next year the best loan you can get, which they call goverment subsidized, is at 6.8% interest. That adds up fast...
So what's the current status on this bill? So you made a horrible/stupid financial decision and now you want everyone else to chip in and bail you out? Should we do the same for people who fall in debt from gambling? Think of the consequences of this. Imagine if the world had never been introduced to Hardball with Keanu Reeves. Is that the kind of world you want to live in? IMO student shouldn't have to worry about financial decisions, society should take care of this as a whole. The younger generation should not be held back just because they/their family cannot afford proper education. And gambling debts/credit debts are very different then student loan debts.
And we should have bubblegum houses and streets paved with chocolate and everyone should be a millionaire.
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Adults need to stop grooming children for college, and start grooming them for what they're good at. Current MS/HS education system doesn't help that.
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On April 23 2012 03:07 Kimaker wrote:
Adults need to stop grooming children for college, and start grooming them for what they're good at. Current MS/HS education system doesn't help that.
True, but not supporting college also undermines general public k-12 education. Why even bother w/ a GED? You can learn anything you need on the job, or in a book (assuming you can read).
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On April 23 2012 03:04 mynameisgreat11 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 02:56 Grimmyman123 wrote:On April 23 2012 02:50 mynameisgreat11 wrote:On April 23 2012 02:49 Grimmyman123 wrote:On April 23 2012 02:48 -_-Quails wrote:On April 23 2012 02:41 Diizzy wrote:
am i the only one who likes this... ? You aren't the only one who thinks that this is a good idea. Several people have voiced support for it earlier in the thread. You would know this if you had read the thread. Who would support such stupdendous drabble? The very students who want to cheat their way out of paying for their financial contracts. Whats your situation Grimmy? Did you go to college? Did you take loans? From a previous post I made in this thread: If I, with no post secondary education, can go from living on welfare, and quite litterally wanting to off myself because I could not even feed myself on $600 a MONTH to cover my living expenses (Rent, Food, Utilities, laundry, public transit) and I managed to find meager employ, then better, and then even better emply to where I now rent an entire house to myself, have a stable job I enjoy (enough) and a fair vehicle to drive and recreational activities I REALLY enjoy - then there is hope for anyone in finding a job then enjoy. Some will find a job they LOVE. Some will find one that pays the bills. I did not go to college or university, and I work my ass off to pay my bills and debts. I've paid off every loan I have ever had, and I am looking at now going to college or university next year as an adult mature student. When I take out my loans, I know what I am getting into, and fruitfull employment or not after I graduate, I fully intend and will pay those loans off. The banks responsibility is to pay for my schooling - my responsibilty is to PAY IT BACK. I do however have every intent and plans to save enough to pay for my tuition in cash. No loans. I agree with you that this bill is unfair; you and I shouldn't pay off the loans of other people. That being said: 1- There is no way to predict whether an education will pay off. My EE degree was supposed to guarantee me certain jobs and salaries. By the time I graduate, shit was different, for the worse. 2- Its 18 year old kids making this decision. Their parents, their teachers, everybody has been setting them up for college their entire lives. 3- Interest rates have soared during my education experience. I started out with interest rates of 2-3 percent. Now, my government provided loans have an interest rate of 6.7%. Do I quit my education midway with nothing to show for it, or do I suck it up and pay the ridiculous rates? 4- Your situation is not universal. Given how shitty the job market is, maybe try to have a little sympathy for people who work hard and are still getting fucked every day.
1) Yes, one can look at the job market, demographics and population denisty, and select a career which suits the demands of an area and field which will be needed in 3 or 4 years time. Securing entry level positions prior or during their education gets a foot into the door before they qualify for the higher paying position upon graduation.
2) They may be 18, but their grades say they are smarter than half the populous.
3) 6.7 percent is peanuts. Take a look at the interest rates during the 1980's and early 1990's. 18% for a home mortgage for gods sake. Now that is something worth crying about. Shit, I paid over 10% for my car loan.
4) I've been in the shitter and got out of it, and a helluva lot worse than these students profess. A lot of these graduates are able to find employ, just not neccesarily in their prefered field, or for a level of compensation that they would prefer. If they cannot find employ, get a job, and wait it out until you can locate, secure, and relocate to where that preferred employ and compensation is available.
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1- There is no way to predict whether an education will pay off. My EE degree was supposed to guarantee me certain jobs and salaries. By the time I graduate, shit was different, for the worse.
See, that's bullshit. You weren't guaranteed anything. You were probably given the facts: engineering degrees are profitable, and have good job placement.
You can't blame society if you are less sucessful than your peers.
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Edit: Wrong fuckin thread xD
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On April 23 2012 03:13 Radin wrote:Show nested quote +1- There is no way to predict whether an education will pay off. My EE degree was supposed to guarantee me certain jobs and salaries. By the time I graduate, shit was different, for the worse. See, that's bullshit. You weren't guaranteed anything. You were probably given the facts: engineering degrees are profitable, and have good job placement. You can't blame society if you are less sucessful than your peers.
Agreed.
An employment guarantee is a contract, in writing, for a particular position and compensation. If an employer has defaulted on thier contract, then I suggest that individual persue them for damages.
If the student did not have a contract, they did not have a guarantee.
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On April 23 2012 03:06 politik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 02:58 Humposaurus wrote:On April 23 2012 02:54 politik wrote:On April 22 2012 16:06 W2 wrote:
I'm going to be $200k+ in debt when I graduate, which will probably mean getting ass raped by Sallie Mae for 20 years if not for this bill.
I know it is not fair to those who did paid off their loans completely. But let's get some perspective. From what I gather, next year the best loan you can get, which they call goverment subsidized, is at 6.8% interest. That adds up fast...
So what's the current status on this bill? So you made a horrible/stupid financial decision and now you want everyone else to chip in and bail you out? Should we do the same for people who fall in debt from gambling? Think of the consequences of this. Imagine if the world had never been introduced to Hardball with Keanu Reeves. Is that the kind of world you want to live in? IMO student shouldn't have to worry about financial decisions, society should take care of this as a whole. The younger generation should not be held back just because they/their family cannot afford proper education. And gambling debts/credit debts are very different then student loan debts. And we should have bubblegum houses and streets paved with chocolate and everyone should be a millionaire.
Other countries are doing a much better job than the US is doing.
Also both bubblegum houses sound more like the creatures of nightmares.
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On April 23 2012 03:21 Grimmyman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 03:13 Radin wrote:1- There is no way to predict whether an education will pay off. My EE degree was supposed to guarantee me certain jobs and salaries. By the time I graduate, shit was different, for the worse. See, that's bullshit. You weren't guaranteed anything. You were probably given the facts: engineering degrees are profitable, and have good job placement. You can't blame society if you are less sucessful than your peers. Agreed. An employment guarantee is a contract, in writing, for a particular position and compensation. If an employer has defaulted on thier contract, then I suggest that individual persue them for damages. If the student did not have a contract, they did not have a guarantee.
'Guarantee' was obviously being used in the colloquial sense rather than the legal sense. In that sense, it would certainly be accurate to apply it to EE/CS degrees at various points in time.
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On April 23 2012 04:02 -_-Quails wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 03:21 Grimmyman123 wrote:On April 23 2012 03:13 Radin wrote:1- There is no way to predict whether an education will pay off. My EE degree was supposed to guarantee me certain jobs and salaries. By the time I graduate, shit was different, for the worse. See, that's bullshit. You weren't guaranteed anything. You were probably given the facts: engineering degrees are profitable, and have good job placement. You can't blame society if you are less sucessful than your peers. Agreed. An employment guarantee is a contract, in writing, for a particular position and compensation. If an employer has defaulted on thier contract, then I suggest that individual persue them for damages. If the student did not have a contract, they did not have a guarantee. 'Guarantee' was obviously being used in the colloquial sense rather than the legal sense. In that sense, it would certainly be accurate to apply it to EE/CS degrees at various points in time.
And that's the problem. These incredibly smart people have the illusion that by having a diploma and an education is a guarantee to employ and success.
Employ and success is acheived by the individual, not the diploma. A guaranteed job is an employment agreement, not a diploma.
One of the more frequent arguments made by students is that they were bred or sculpted for a particular field - one which does not have an employment future in the short term. I say that is no excuse. These individuals are amazingly smart and know the concept of cause and effect.
I've had the pleasure of employing students which were in every way more intelligent and educated than I, and I set them up for success in their positions so they could make the money they needed to pay for their schooling, and live life with a degree of comfort and entertainment. All of them have gainful employment, all of them obtaining salaries and packages which I have never personally equalled. One was applying for a senior position with a major shoe brand, and when that was not successful, he had already courted and secured a senior account manager with a major cellular phone provider with a 6 digit salary. Another became a very successful pottery artist. Another immediately out of school became an area manager for a home renovation company, and a few short years later she moved to Boston to take a vice president role before the age of 26. They all worked hard, studied hard, and during their schooling they created the foundation for their resume's and background so that when it came to seeking their career employ, they could do so with enthusiasm and a success that they created for themselves.
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On April 23 2012 03:54 -_-Quails wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 03:06 politik wrote:On April 23 2012 02:58 Humposaurus wrote:On April 23 2012 02:54 politik wrote:On April 22 2012 16:06 W2 wrote:
I'm going to be $200k+ in debt when I graduate, which will probably mean getting ass raped by Sallie Mae for 20 years if not for this bill.
I know it is not fair to those who did paid off their loans completely. But let's get some perspective. From what I gather, next year the best loan you can get, which they call goverment subsidized, is at 6.8% interest. That adds up fast...
So what's the current status on this bill? So you made a horrible/stupid financial decision and now you want everyone else to chip in and bail you out? Should we do the same for people who fall in debt from gambling? Think of the consequences of this. Imagine if the world had never been introduced to Hardball with Keanu Reeves. Is that the kind of world you want to live in? IMO student shouldn't have to worry about financial decisions, society should take care of this as a whole. The younger generation should not be held back just because they/their family cannot afford proper education. And gambling debts/credit debts are very different then student loan debts. And we should have bubblegum houses and streets paved with chocolate and everyone should be a millionaire. Other countries are doing a much better job than the US is doing. Also both bubblegum houses sound more like the creatures of nightmares.
Also no other countries have their post-secondary paid for by the government but run and profited from by private institutions. Do you know why? Because it's a terrible fucking disastrous idea. Tuition would be $50k/year within five years and people will still attend because they won't have to pay for it. The USA will end up paying twice as much as any other country for a far inferior system.
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EPT
