On April 21 2012 04:11 ranshaked wrote: From 2007-2010 I was able to afford my education. Since then, I've had to obtain loans to cover the rest. I don't necessarily think that the loan situation is the problem, but rather the inflated tuition that is occurring. Inflation is not meeting our pay.
The thing is, tuition skyrocketing is a big thing, but at least for public universities, it's not going to make a MASSIVE "omg I can't ever pay this back" difference. Tuition has increased to probably an additional 80% of what it was. Assuming tuition now costs 12.5k per year and used to cost 7k per year, then that's an additional 5.5k per year, over 4 years, and additional 22k. Yeah, it's a lot of money. But people are talking about 150k loans etc.
Grad school is an entirely different issue than undergrad and there's NO WAY I would support massive subsidazation of grad school. Education costs money, and no, I don't think you're entitled to as much education as you want, regardless of your potential, although if you have the potential from what I've seen grad school is generally not that bad at public universities since becoming a TA in a large majority of the fields means your tuition and a large portion of your rent is covered.
Why should I have to pay an additional 80% when the following aren't happening: 1) My education is no different than it was in 2007 2) My pay has not increased even half that, in fact it has decreased 3) The fees and interest rate that I will be paying is going to be double what I could have done before.
With all of that said, it would have been more logical of me to take a loan out of 10k 5 years ago, and then used it toward my degree now. I just don't appreciate the tuition hikes. It's unfair to those that already cannot afford it, to put them in even more debt.
im with you on the fact that tuition is bullshit insane, and the education is borderline worthless.
but, i didnt "have to" do anything. i chose to do it. now, i am going to be responsible, and pay back my debts that i voluntarily incurred.
On April 21 2012 04:11 ranshaked wrote: From 2007-2010 I was able to afford my education. Since then, I've had to obtain loans to cover the rest. I don't necessarily think that the loan situation is the problem, but rather the inflated tuition that is occurring. Inflation is not meeting our pay.
The thing is, tuition skyrocketing is a big thing, but at least for public universities, it's not going to make a MASSIVE "omg I can't ever pay this back" difference. Tuition has increased to probably an additional 80% of what it was. Assuming tuition now costs 12.5k per year and used to cost 7k per year, then that's an additional 5.5k per year, over 4 years, and additional 22k. Yeah, it's a lot of money. But people are talking about 150k loans etc.
Grad school is an entirely different issue than undergrad and there's NO WAY I would support massive subsidazation of grad school. Education costs money, and no, I don't think you're entitled to as much education as you want, regardless of your potential, although if you have the potential from what I've seen grad school is generally not that bad at public universities since becoming a TA in a large majority of the fields means your tuition and a large portion of your rent is covered.
Why should I have to pay an additional 80% when the following aren't happening: 1) My education is no different than it was in 2007 2) My pay has not increased even half that, in fact it has decreased 3) The fees and interest rate that I will be paying is going to be double what I could have done before.
With all of that said, it would have been more logical of me to take a loan out of 10k 5 years ago, and then used it toward my degree now. I just don't appreciate the tuition hikes. It's unfair to those that already cannot afford it, to put them in even more debt.
im with you on the fact that tuition is bullshit insane, and the education is borderline worthless.
but, i didnt "have to" do anything. i chose to do it. now, i am going to be responsible, and pay back my debts that i voluntarily incurred.
Of course I'm going to pay back my debts, but there's a difference between paying it back and getting royally *** in the ass if you know what I mean.
At the end of college I'll have the following: An AA degree, an AS degree and a BS degree. I will be 7-10k in debt. If the prices had stayed even 25% of normal inflation I would be zero dollars in debt.
On April 20 2012 10:09 boxturtle wrote: The forgiveness part of this bill sounds financially retarded, the other portions are more or less meh. One of the biggest problems I noticed in Uni was the fact that people who had no real interest of being there were coming to college because their "parents made them go." This is a cultural problem of middle class/upper middle class families. Forgiving debt will transform it into America's problem.
A lot of these people are getting tens of thousands of dollar in government aid, screwing around, concocting get-rich-fast schemes a la wannabe Zuckerberg or Gates, graduating in 5 or 6 years due to prioritize partying over education, then spending their time starting up various companies with whatever they remember from college. Most of these people are self motivated in things that aren't college (ex/ learning programing, music, or art by themselves). In 10 years the government would have made a grand total of $5,000 off their near nonexistent income (the parents that force kids like these to go to college usually sustain their kids after they get a degree), while having forgiven $50,000 worth of loans (with interest that'd be over $100,000 in 10 years, solid investments can double after 9 years).
Another type of student that ruins the functionality of a plan like this are the "smart" 4.0 high school GPA ones that get "stupid" degrees. There are plenty of people who graduated high school at age 17, listened to their Asian (not racist, I'm an Asian) parents who yelled at them to go to the most prestigious private institution (I know people who went to USC/Yale because they were only 17 when they picked a college and their parents tricked them into it) and then found out that not only do they hate the shit out of law, they actually wanted a liberal arts/sociology degree, and that's their life calling. They graduate in 3 years, but still have crippling debt they can't pay with their 35k a year starting salary. The government will be getting screwed by pretty much anyone who isn't rich that takes student loans to get a degree that doesn't have great starting wages at some place that isn't a community college.
Another type is the one you all know. The guy who drops out of college after being in there too long. This guy is going to be the worst for the plan especially if he plans on not holding a job for long.
Some people just shouldn't be going to college/going to a prestigious college. I had a high GPA in high school, and I maintained a decent one in college. I did not go to a prestigious university. My brother went to an expensive school off a scholarship. He would not have gone if he did not get a scholarship.
It's arrogance and stupidity to reach for the highest simply because you can touch it. If you can't hold onto it, it should be your problem for your own poor financial planning, not America's. There are people racking up over a hundred thousand dollars of college debt and then expecting it to be paid because "they were smart and they deserve an education." Nothing entitles you to having a $100,000-200,000 education except either scholarships or paying for it from with Daddy's credit card. You can't screw America because you tried reaaaaaaalllllllyyyy hard and got an English degree from a private school.
If you really want a degree you can go to a community college. My cousin came over from Guam not 4 years ago, and he went to a community college and ended up great. Education isn't free, good educators aren't free. Education isn't your right. It's not a heart sticker you get for doing good in your little free GPA high school. Education is an investment- America's investment. America shouldn't invest in social workers/"entrepreneurs" that cost $200,000 when they could be investing $20,000 and getting near the same quality, since a lot of professions like these are more about motivation and "soft" skills.
People who are able to go these top universities you're speaking of have much easier access to a lot more opportunities. I think everyone should have as fair and equal chance of attending one of these universities as possible. This means better K-12 public education and lower college tuition costs.
Well I guess we simply disagree. You can try to get a scholarship. That's your way in, really. Get a scholarship, or have money. Or take a gamble with your future that I simply disagree with.
But if the government can "pretend" you have the money and then once that is over you pay it back np than why should that (being born poor - this is honestly what you think?) stop the brightest minds in the country?
Ok, pay it back then. What's the issue? If you really want to use the "brightest minds" argument than they should have gotten a scholarship...
This. Look at the housing market, did everyone who got loans (who generally KNEW they couldn't afford the damn house!) get help? How is this any different, aside from the monetary value? I think if you were going to do anything, you would help a larger # of people by doing some sort of thing for the people who were involved in the housing market pre-downturn. The housing market did have a huge downspiral - but right now it's stabilizing and going up!
On April 21 2012 04:11 ranshaked wrote: From 2007-2010 I was able to afford my education. Since then, I've had to obtain loans to cover the rest. I don't necessarily think that the loan situation is the problem, but rather the inflated tuition that is occurring. Inflation is not meeting our pay.
The thing is, tuition skyrocketing is a big thing, but at least for public universities, it's not going to make a MASSIVE "omg I can't ever pay this back" difference. Tuition has increased to probably an additional 80% of what it was. Assuming tuition now costs 12.5k per year and used to cost 7k per year, then that's an additional 5.5k per year, over 4 years, and additional 22k. Yeah, it's a lot of money. But people are talking about 150k loans etc.
Grad school is an entirely different issue than undergrad and there's NO WAY I would support massive subsidazation of grad school. Education costs money, and no, I don't think you're entitled to as much education as you want, regardless of your potential, although if you have the potential from what I've seen grad school is generally not that bad at public universities since becoming a TA in a large majority of the fields means your tuition and a large portion of your rent is covered.
Why should I have to pay an additional 80% when the following aren't happening: 1) My education is no different than it was in 2007 2) My pay has not increased even half that, in fact it has decreased 3) The fees and interest rate that I will be paying is going to be double what I could have done before.
With all of that said, it would have been more logical of me to take a loan out of 10k 5 years ago, and then used it toward my degree now. I just don't appreciate the tuition hikes. It's unfair to those that already cannot afford it, to put them in even more debt.
im with you on the fact that tuition is bullshit insane, and the education is borderline worthless.
but, i didnt "have to" do anything. i chose to do it. now, i am going to be responsible, and pay back my debts that i voluntarily incurred.
Of course I'm going to pay back my debts, but there's a difference between paying it back and getting royally *** in the ass if you know what I mean.
At the end of college I'll have the following: An AA degree, an AS degree and a BS degree. I will be 7-10k in debt. If the prices had stayed even 25% of normal inflation I would be zero dollars in debt.
I don't think you know what loan companies actually do. You do realize they're not giving you free money, and the whole damn reason loan companies make money is because of interest rates? The faster you pay back, the less you pay for it. Anything and everything you take a loan out for is in the same boat. That's how they make money.
If you get a loan for a new car - you're always going to pay more than how much you would have paid if you bought the car in full.
On April 20 2012 10:09 boxturtle wrote: The forgiveness part of this bill sounds financially retarded, the other portions are more or less meh. One of the biggest problems I noticed in Uni was the fact that people who had no real interest of being there were coming to college because their "parents made them go." This is a cultural problem of middle class/upper middle class families. Forgiving debt will transform it into America's problem.
A lot of these people are getting tens of thousands of dollar in government aid, screwing around, concocting get-rich-fast schemes a la wannabe Zuckerberg or Gates, graduating in 5 or 6 years due to prioritize partying over education, then spending their time starting up various companies with whatever they remember from college. Most of these people are self motivated in things that aren't college (ex/ learning programing, music, or art by themselves). In 10 years the government would have made a grand total of $5,000 off their near nonexistent income (the parents that force kids like these to go to college usually sustain their kids after they get a degree), while having forgiven $50,000 worth of loans (with interest that'd be over $100,000 in 10 years, solid investments can double after 9 years).
Another type of student that ruins the functionality of a plan like this are the "smart" 4.0 high school GPA ones that get "stupid" degrees. There are plenty of people who graduated high school at age 17, listened to their Asian (not racist, I'm an Asian) parents who yelled at them to go to the most prestigious private institution (I know people who went to USC/Yale because they were only 17 when they picked a college and their parents tricked them into it) and then found out that not only do they hate the shit out of law, they actually wanted a liberal arts/sociology degree, and that's their life calling. They graduate in 3 years, but still have crippling debt they can't pay with their 35k a year starting salary. The government will be getting screwed by pretty much anyone who isn't rich that takes student loans to get a degree that doesn't have great starting wages at some place that isn't a community college.
Another type is the one you all know. The guy who drops out of college after being in there too long. This guy is going to be the worst for the plan especially if he plans on not holding a job for long.
Some people just shouldn't be going to college/going to a prestigious college. I had a high GPA in high school, and I maintained a decent one in college. I did not go to a prestigious university. My brother went to an expensive school off a scholarship. He would not have gone if he did not get a scholarship.
It's arrogance and stupidity to reach for the highest simply because you can touch it. If you can't hold onto it, it should be your problem for your own poor financial planning, not America's. There are people racking up over a hundred thousand dollars of college debt and then expecting it to be paid because "they were smart and they deserve an education." Nothing entitles you to having a $100,000-200,000 education except either scholarships or paying for it from with Daddy's credit card. You can't screw America because you tried reaaaaaaalllllllyyyy hard and got an English degree from a private school.
If you really want a degree you can go to a community college. My cousin came over from Guam not 4 years ago, and he went to a community college and ended up great. Education isn't free, good educators aren't free. Education isn't your right. It's not a heart sticker you get for doing good in your little free GPA high school. Education is an investment- America's investment. America shouldn't invest in social workers/"entrepreneurs" that cost $200,000 when they could be investing $20,000 and getting near the same quality, since a lot of professions like these are more about motivation and "soft" skills.
People who are able to go these top universities you're speaking of have much easier access to a lot more opportunities. I think everyone should have as fair and equal chance of attending one of these universities as possible. This means better K-12 public education and lower college tuition costs.
Well I guess we simply disagree. You can try to get a scholarship. That's your way in, really. Get a scholarship, or have money. Or take a gamble with your future that I simply disagree with.
But if the government can "pretend" you have the money and then once that is over you pay it back np than why should that (being born poor - this is honestly what you think?) stop the brightest minds in the country?
Ok, pay it back then. What's the issue? If you really want to use the "brightest minds" argument than they should have gotten a scholarship...
I guess I just find it weird that you prefer to ensure that those who don't deserve it don't get anything and screw some "unlucky" people over to do so than to ensure help for those who need it and "unfortunately" help some who don't as a by-product. Such a different view from my own, I'm mostly just wondering how/why someone would think that O_o"
It's threads like these that make me really glad to be Canadian.
You can graduate from a Canadian university with a Bachelor's degree in Bullshit entirely on student loans, and in the end you might owe -- I don't know -- $40,000 to $45,000 at 6% interest? Not sure about the exact numbers.
On April 21 2012 04:48 Defacer wrote: It's threads like these that make me really glad to be Canadian.
You can graduate from a Canadian university with a Bachelor's degree in Bullshit entirely on student loans, and in the end you might owe -- I don't know -- $40,000 to $45,000 at 6% interest? Not sure about the exact numbers.
that's...not too different from graduating from a public university in the US?
On April 21 2012 04:48 Defacer wrote: It's threads like these that make me really glad to be Canadian.
You can graduate from a Canadian university with a Bachelor's degree in Bullshit entirely on student loans, and in the end you might owe -- I don't know -- $40,000 to $45,000 at 6% interest? Not sure about the exact numbers.
that's...not too different from graduating from a public university in the US?
Really? Average tuition for undergrad's in Canada is $5,000 per year, with Ontario being the highest at $6,000 a year. What's average for the US?
On April 21 2012 04:48 Defacer wrote: It's threads like these that make me really glad to be Canadian.
You can graduate from a Canadian university with a Bachelor's degree in Bullshit entirely on student loans, and in the end you might owe -- I don't know -- $40,000 to $45,000 at 6% interest? Not sure about the exact numbers.
that's...not too different from graduating from a public university in the US?
Really? Average tuition for undergrad's in Canada is $5,000 per year, with Ontario being the highest at $6,000 a year. What's average for the US?
The big flagship state schools have around 4-5K per Semester tuition costs. The smaller public universities cost roughly 2-3K per semester, and will get you a degree too. This doesn't factor in anything else like housing and food though.
On April 21 2012 04:48 Defacer wrote: It's threads like these that make me really glad to be Canadian.
You can graduate from a Canadian university with a Bachelor's degree in Bullshit entirely on student loans, and in the end you might owe -- I don't know -- $40,000 to $45,000 at 6% interest? Not sure about the exact numbers.
that's...not too different from graduating from a public university in the US?
Really? Average tuition for undergrad's in Canada is $5,000 per year, with Ontario being the highest at $6,000 a year. What's average for the US?
The big flagship state schools have around 4-5K per Semester tuition costs. The smaller public universities cost roughly 2-3K per semester, and will get you a degree too. This doesn't factor in anything else like housing and food though.
Man ... are US university students just really shitty at managing money and debt then? Are they going to fancy pants schools at $40-45K a year they can't afford? what gives?
On April 21 2012 04:48 Defacer wrote: It's threads like these that make me really glad to be Canadian.
You can graduate from a Canadian university with a Bachelor's degree in Bullshit entirely on student loans, and in the end you might owe -- I don't know -- $40,000 to $45,000 at 6% interest? Not sure about the exact numbers.
that's...not too different from graduating from a public university in the US?
Really? Average tuition for undergrad's in Canada is $5,000 per year, with Ontario being the highest at $6,000 a year. What's average for the US?
The big flagship state schools have around 4-5K per Semester tuition costs. The smaller public universities cost roughly 2-3K per semester, and will get you a degree too. This doesn't factor in anything else like housing and food though.
Man ... are US university students just really shitty at managing money and debt then? Are they going to fancy pants schools at $40-45K a year they can't afford? what gives?
It really is a bit of both.
Alot of them are ending up going to private schools that do charge around the $30K range for just tuition in a year, factor in everything else and its roughly 40-45K ish for school.
TBH most of the reasons that people are struggling so hard is that in a down economy, employers literally have hundreds of employment applications to chose from when they're looking for someone to hire. This allows them to pick someone that is incredible specialized for the position that they are seeking to fill, meaning that people with more broad educational fields (The liberal arts) get tossed aside because there's always someone more qualified than them. Many of these people who are sitting a on a mountain of debt did get degrees from these notable Liberal Arts Private Colleges, but now have nothing to show for it because no one will hire them. Hence the reason so many of them are in a very tough spot.
Another issue is that the people that are taking these loans are 18 year old kids that have been ill-prepared for the real world, as they can' t even fathom how much money they are on the hook for when they sign on the dotted line.
I know for a fact that before I signed for my loans, I calculated if I could even pay them back if I worked minimum wage for the rest of my life, and It turned out that I could. To me it seems more people should do that, or at least wait before going to school and make some money in the mean time.
I am in a graduate program (Pharmacy). I will graduate with close to 200,000 in debt because I also have to take max loans to live on to support my wife and child and not much time to work. I have my reserves even about student loan forgiveness even though it would benifit me a ton. Personally I think its the school system that is being greedy, but there are more students, especially grad students that are defaulting on loans because of the lack of work or the pay scale not moving with their loans and interest rates. Why be in grad school if you dont know if youll have a job after? The economy as a whole needs a make-over. I do think that this bill overall has great intentions and would be a benifit short and long term, and thats whats important.
On April 21 2012 06:22 Trankuil wrote: I am in a graduate program (Pharmacy). I will graduate with close to 200,000 in debt because I also have to take max loans to live on to support my wife and child and not much time to work. I have my reserves even about student loan forgiveness even though it would benifit me a ton. Personally I think its the school system that is being greedy, but there are more students, especially grad students that are defaulting on loans because of the lack of work or the pay scale not moving with their loans and interest rates. Why be in grad school if you dont know if youll have a job after? The economy as a whole needs a make-over. I do think that this bill overall has great intentions and would be a benifit short and long term, and thats whats important.
i dont understand why people think this bill will be a benefit to the U.S. economy. can someone explain? or, are you saying its just a benefit to the people getting their loans forgiven?
On April 21 2012 06:22 Trankuil wrote: I am in a graduate program (Pharmacy). I will graduate with close to 200,000 in debt because I also have to take max loans to live on to support my wife and child and not much time to work. I have my reserves even about student loan forgiveness even though it would benifit me a ton. Personally I think its the school system that is being greedy, but there are more students, especially grad students that are defaulting on loans because of the lack of work or the pay scale not moving with their loans and interest rates. Why be in grad school if you dont know if youll have a job after? The economy as a whole needs a make-over. I do think that this bill overall has great intentions and would be a benifit short and long term, and thats whats important.
i dont understand why people think this bill will be a benefit to the U.S. economy. can someone explain? or, are you saying its just a benefit to the people getting their loans forgiven?
I guess the idea is people can have some of their money to spend as they choose and continue the spirit of the free market instead of it all being funneled to one bank or just back to the government. These people can buy tvs and go out for dinner and shit again. That's better for everyone.
On April 21 2012 06:22 Trankuil wrote: I am in a graduate program (Pharmacy). I will graduate with close to 200,000 in debt because I also have to take max loans to live on to support my wife and child and not much time to work. I have my reserves even about student loan forgiveness even though it would benifit me a ton. Personally I think its the school system that is being greedy, but there are more students, especially grad students that are defaulting on loans because of the lack of work or the pay scale not moving with their loans and interest rates. Why be in grad school if you dont know if youll have a job after? The economy as a whole needs a make-over. I do think that this bill overall has great intentions and would be a benifit short and long term, and thats whats important.
i dont understand why people think this bill will be a benefit to the U.S. economy. can someone explain? or, are you saying its just a benefit to the people getting their loans forgiven?
I guess the idea is people can have some of their money to spend as they choose and continue the spirit of the free market instead of it all being funneled to one bank or just back to the government. These people can buy tvs and go out for dinner and shit again. That's better for everyone.
by that logic, the government should pay off all debt (credit card debt, mortgages, car loans, etc.).
On April 21 2012 06:22 Trankuil wrote: I am in a graduate program (Pharmacy). I will graduate with close to 200,000 in debt because I also have to take max loans to live on to support my wife and child and not much time to work. I have my reserves even about student loan forgiveness even though it would benifit me a ton. Personally I think its the school system that is being greedy, but there are more students, especially grad students that are defaulting on loans because of the lack of work or the pay scale not moving with their loans and interest rates. Why be in grad school if you dont know if youll have a job after? The economy as a whole needs a make-over. I do think that this bill overall has great intentions and would be a benifit short and long term, and thats whats important.
i dont understand why people think this bill will be a benefit to the U.S. economy. can someone explain? or, are you saying its just a benefit to the people getting their loans forgiven?
I guess the idea is people can have some of their money to spend as they choose and continue the spirit of the free market instead of it all being funneled to one bank or just back to the government. These people can buy tvs and go out for dinner and shit again. That's better for everyone.
Free market would be no government interference.
More money to spend would boost the economy, but at the same time the hit credit would be taking would counteract that.
In the UK we don't have this kind of law, but I wouldn't be surprised if it comes to fruition in the next few years with the way students are irresponsible at universities.
I've gone to University and commuted every single day, for an hour and half, with very little money and worked my ass off to get a fantastic grade for my degree, and there are so many people who just simply go out of their mind and abuse the system, like going into their overdraft a WEEK after being given £1,500 for the term, then living off virtually nothing for 3 months. None of the people who do this regularly have any drive to find a job. I'm graduating in a few months, and literally I can count the number of people on my hand that have got a job for when they leave university, or even have gotten interviews lined up for jobs when they leave.
Sadly people think University is a free ride into a £100,000 a year job with 10 hours a week and 10 weeks of holiday. Well it's like NonY said on SOTG, "guess what? Shit doesn't come for free".
Yes I would not have been able to pay for university if the loan system was not in place, but I am financially responsible enough and worked my way into a position where I can more than happily pay off all my debts in just a few short years. No one seems to do this anymore, and it makes me sad.
Everyone wants their share, but are never willing to actually put something into the pot to get their share.
On April 21 2012 04:48 Defacer wrote: It's threads like these that make me really glad to be Canadian.
You can graduate from a Canadian university with a Bachelor's degree in Bullshit entirely on student loans, and in the end you might owe -- I don't know -- $40,000 to $45,000 at 6% interest? Not sure about the exact numbers.
that's...not too different from graduating from a public university in the US?
Really? Average tuition for undergrad's in Canada is $5,000 per year, with Ontario being the highest at $6,000 a year. What's average for the US?
The big flagship state schools have around 4-5K per Semester tuition costs. The smaller public universities cost roughly 2-3K per semester, and will get you a degree too. This doesn't factor in anything else like housing and food though.
Man ... are US university students just really shitty at managing money and debt then? Are they going to fancy pants schools at $40-45K a year they can't afford? what gives?
Some state schools cost 10-12k a year tuition. Many, if not most, and every 'top' university charges the 30-40k per year that you hear about in this thread. There is very little middle ground.
On April 21 2012 06:22 Trankuil wrote: I am in a graduate program (Pharmacy). I will graduate with close to 200,000 in debt because I also have to take max loans to live on to support my wife and child and not much time to work. I have my reserves even about student loan forgiveness even though it would benifit me a ton. Personally I think its the school system that is being greedy, but there are more students, especially grad students that are defaulting on loans because of the lack of work or the pay scale not moving with their loans and interest rates. Why be in grad school if you dont know if youll have a job after? The economy as a whole needs a make-over. I do think that this bill overall has great intentions and would be a benifit short and long term, and thats whats important.
i dont understand why people think this bill will be a benefit to the U.S. economy. can someone explain? or, are you saying its just a benefit to the people getting their loans forgiven?
I guess the idea is people can have some of their money to spend as they choose and continue the spirit of the free market instead of it all being funneled to one bank or just back to the government. These people can buy tvs and go out for dinner and shit again. That's better for everyone.
by that logic, the government should pay off all debt (credit card debt, mortgages, car loans, etc.).
Not quite, at least not by logic. Spoiler: I know nothing about economics.
Education debt is like investment pre-money debt. Plus you NEED it in a lot of cases just to be whatever job you want to be (surgeon, lawyer etc.). People with this are expected to make more money, mostly need it to make more money, and they will have more money to spend on shit. But if they are paying interest and commission and shit on loans than they are giving a larger portion of their income than 'natural' (free-market spirit) to these banks or the government. If they aren't doing this then they can spend their income as they choose and stimulate a relative and representative portion of the economy, something that better represents themselves and their wants. A freer market. Debt incurred through buying a big house, a fancy car, too many christmas presents is debt incurred through free choice. People didn't HAVE to buy this shit (one could argue that so-and-so didn't have to go to med school, but someone has to, and they shouldn't be limited by how rich their parents got (everyone deserves a fair chance) or whether someone was nice enough to fund it for them (scholarships)). But they do, incurring debt that was freely incurred, fairly incurred. This debt represents the will of the free market. This bill is trying to divert a couple major seaways into 100s of smaller rivers. At least that's what I got.
EPT
