|
On April 20 2012 07:46 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 07:41 screamingpalm wrote:On April 20 2012 07:36 Voltaire wrote:On April 20 2012 07:29 screamingpalm wrote:On April 20 2012 07:23 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 20 2012 07:19 screamingpalm wrote:On April 20 2012 07:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 20 2012 07:08 Voltaire wrote:On April 20 2012 07:03 dAPhREAk wrote:On April 20 2012 06:51 Voltaire wrote:
The federal government needs to completely take over public education, even public higher ed. It's the only way to ensure equal access to education throughout the country and to end the for-profit attitude that has engulfed higher ed. exactly. they have done a slam dunk job on the USPS compared to all those shoddy for-profit companies. The demand for mail services has been continually dropping since the invention of e-mail. There were way too many workers for the amount of work. I was happy when I heard about the USPS laying off 20,000 workers. Workers who aren't needed should be fired instantly. There's definitely a shortage of teachers in many parts of the country, though. that was sarcasm. the federal gov't can't run shit without it failing. http://i41.tinypic.com/10yfnk7.jpg ![[image loading]](http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/debtiv.gif) when they can provide all of that stuff without incurring trillions of dollars in debt, i will praise them. edit: woh. that pic is interactive. it keeps going up if i refresh. rather depressing. Indeed. We can stat by cutting the bloated military budget. Then we can make sure we don't waste potential by forcing our "best and brightest" from Harvard to choose a field of study where they end up on Wall Street and robbing the rest of us when they get bailed out by the feds. Pro-lifers always argue, "what if an aborted fetus turned out to be another Einstein or someone that cured cancer"?Considering the state of our education system, that's pretty funny. I don't get how we're "forcing" anyone to end up on Wall Street. Everyone who ends up working in finance chooses to do so. Also, most people I know who are either currently in finance or want to go into it were in fact against TARP. I agree that TARP was total bullshit, but I blame the government for choosing to do it, not Wall Street. Companies will always do whatever they think will make them the most profit. The government is supposed to keep that in line. The SEC is far more to blame for the crisis than anyone else, in my opinion. This is coming for someone who wants to work in the industry colloquially known as Wall Street, so my opinion is probably worthless in your eyes anyways. Have you not read the countless blame (even just in this thread) for people making "bad decisions" and picking "worthless majors"? Think about how much that stiffles creativity and innovation. We are supposed to accept less/lower standards. Students are being encouraged to go into a field of study that might not be their best subject, but rather to survive and pay back their loan. Well, I agree that tuition costs are beyond ridiculous and that it is a major problem in the US. I don't think that's Wall Street's fault, though. The tuition crisis is why I made a post earlier saying that I think the federal government should take over public education. I think the government could get public universities down to under $5,000 a year in tuition, most of it through cost cutting. Administrators are very overpaid; the president of my current university receives a 7 figure salary. As for private universities (like Harvard), I don't see any feasible way for the government to get involved without causing a shitstorm. These universities don't want any government involvement whatsoever.
I totally agree with all of that. I don't mean to single out 'Wall Street' and 'Harvard' specifically, was meant to be a 'for example'.
|
On April 20 2012 07:47 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 06:45 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 19 2012 15:06 FuGGu wrote:On April 19 2012 10:05 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 19 2012 08:25 FuGGu wrote:On April 18 2012 09:20 sc2superfan101 wrote:
i dont like it. no one forgave my parents student loans that they spent years working off, so why does anyone else deserve it? balderdash. We pay significantly more than our parents ever had to....you're trolling right? kids trolling. you take out higher loans and you will pay more, sure, that's how the world works. kid? yep, that's me. just a tiny little youngin... edit: my father finished law school with ~$65,000 in student loans. the job he got with the DA afterwards started at ~$20,000, the job now starts at ~$60,000. say you go through law school with ~$200,000 of debt, you would be paying about the same amount compared to your income that my parents did. Really? So according to you there is no loan crisis? You think the loan situation in this country is the same? ... Let me answers this for you: there is a new loan crisis. Student debt is near 1 trillion in this country. While your father's law school debts were pricey back in the day, he is a lawyer, and he is blessed with a high paying job that can do that. Nowadays, people getting four year undergraduate degrees (who don't make as much as lawyers) are paying exorbitant amounts of moneys and aren't getting jobs that pay like lawyers. Some are making 40,000 dollars a year after college....if someone went to the generic large public institution in my state and had parents who couldn't help them afford it they would be 88,000 dollars in debt. That will take a long time to pay off with a 40,000 dollar year job. (That's assuming they get a job - unemployment has been pretty bad recently with tumbling economy, you know? Not like 15 years ago.) Do you understand? blessed with a high paying job, huh? yeah, he sure was blessed. had nothing to do with working hard and busting his ass. nope, it was all luck of the draw. $40,000/yr with $88,000 of debt. my parents had $65,000 of debt, with a $22,000/yr job, 3 kids with another on the way. my mom had to drop out of school and work two full-time jobs while pregnant and taking care of an infant. we had some pretty crappy times, but we got through it. took my parents 25 years to pay off their student loans. it will take them another 25 years to pay off the mortgage on the house, if they ever are able to. so you'll forgive me if i'm not exactly sympathetic to someone who is going to have to pay less in proportion to their income than my parents did and most likely doesn't have kids. everyone in this thread seems to have some idea that life was just a breeze before 2008 and college was so cheap that anyone at all could just waltz in and get it, and that there was ninety jobs for every one college graduate. it's funny to hear the excuses. "it will take a long time to pay off!!" yeah. it will. you may be in debt for the rest of your life, if you weren't careful. and you know what? that sucks, but that's the way stuff works. you take out a loan, you have to pay it back. i don't care what excuses you have, because everyone has excuses: if you did not think you could or would pay back your loans then you should not have taken them. but you did take them. OK, that's fine, you'll have to be uncomfortable. but now you want all the people who did pay their debts, and who did keep their promises, to come in and save you from your own bad choices. you can give me any reason or excuse why we should that you want, but i'm not gonna buy it. earlier someone said, basically: "what a depressing life! i wouldn't want to live like that!" in response to someone saying that they may have to take 20 years paying off their student loans. can i laugh or should i cry at that? so my parents, who took 25 years to pay off their debts, are supposed to now foot the bill so that you don't have to take 20 years to pay off your debt? so I, who am doing everything i can to keep my loans extremely low, have no entertainment budget whatsoever and have no car, am supposed to foot the bill for someone who took out over $100,000 in loans and spent every penny of it in 4 years or less? you want to talk about fairness? how is that fair to me? how is that fair to my parents? no, but you see "lawyer" and you think that we're just swimming in money and we could totally spare some. never-mind that my parents are in huge debt themselves due to bad decisions in their lifetimes, but have not once asked for a handout or forgiveness, and won't get it even if they wanted it. never mind the fact that you made the choice to take out loans and you made the choice to pursue a degree in an area that didn't give you benefit, never mind that none of your debt is anyone elses responsibility. let's just force the responsibility onto other people so that you don't have to take a long time paying back your loans. let's just give everyone grants, because a loan that doesn't have to be payed back is a grant. i have heard all the sob stories. i have heard all of the tales of woe about there being no jobs and no money and crushing debt. i have heard all of it and i sympathize, but at the same time, i don't care. taking care of you and your debts is not my job, is not my parent's job, and is not CEO Richy Rich's job either, and forcing that responsibility on us is not only unfair, it makes no economic sense. colleges will have no incentive whatsoever to lower tuition and costs, and working people who are driving the economy will have another burden added upon their already weighted shoulders. if it sounds harsh and mean, it's because the world is harsh and mean. for the love of christ, how was that not taught to you people in college? Do not be too harsh to deal out debt and judgement, even the very wise cannot truly see the consequences of either. How about as fellow human beings Instead of ruining peoples lives we could forgive the debt. Erase it all. Its nothing more than vast numbers on a sheet that will keep growing until the debtors revolt. Debt and the forgiveness of it has existed since the dawn of humanity and it has happened in both small and larger scales since that time. Either in the name of religion or in the name of charity. Would the world not have been better if your mother who was working two jobs to let your father stay afloat could have studied with him? To the economist it is an impossible insanity, but to the humanist it is simply being human. This bill while not perfect is trying to amend a broken system that currently pains a lot of young people and you need to realize that its not about what happened in the past, but what will happen in the future.
But the reason it looks like an impossible insanity to the economist, is because he understands that there are consequences to such an action.
You can't just "make things better" for free - forgiving this debt will only come at the cost of damaging someone else's life. It's not removing suffering - it's shifting suffering from one group of people onto another. It's not even guaranteed to reduce the suffering either.
Difference is, at the moment the suffering is coming down on people who knew what they were getting into and chose to take a risk that might not work out. Forgiving the debt is just shifting their pain onto other people who had nothing to do with the decision.
|
Student debt won't wiped clean. If you pay 15% of your discretionary income for 10 years, assuming a 50k salary, that comes out to 75 thousand dollars if I'm not mistaken.
|
On April 20 2012 07:47 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 06:45 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 19 2012 15:06 FuGGu wrote:On April 19 2012 10:05 sc2superfan101 wrote:On April 19 2012 08:25 FuGGu wrote:On April 18 2012 09:20 sc2superfan101 wrote:
i dont like it. no one forgave my parents student loans that they spent years working off, so why does anyone else deserve it? balderdash. We pay significantly more than our parents ever had to....you're trolling right? kids trolling. you take out higher loans and you will pay more, sure, that's how the world works. kid? yep, that's me. just a tiny little youngin... edit: my father finished law school with ~$65,000 in student loans. the job he got with the DA afterwards started at ~$20,000, the job now starts at ~$60,000. say you go through law school with ~$200,000 of debt, you would be paying about the same amount compared to your income that my parents did. Really? So according to you there is no loan crisis? You think the loan situation in this country is the same? ... Let me answers this for you: there is a new loan crisis. Student debt is near 1 trillion in this country. While your father's law school debts were pricey back in the day, he is a lawyer, and he is blessed with a high paying job that can do that. Nowadays, people getting four year undergraduate degrees (who don't make as much as lawyers) are paying exorbitant amounts of moneys and aren't getting jobs that pay like lawyers. Some are making 40,000 dollars a year after college....if someone went to the generic large public institution in my state and had parents who couldn't help them afford it they would be 88,000 dollars in debt. That will take a long time to pay off with a 40,000 dollar year job. (That's assuming they get a job - unemployment has been pretty bad recently with tumbling economy, you know? Not like 15 years ago.) Do you understand? blessed with a high paying job, huh? yeah, he sure was blessed. had nothing to do with working hard and busting his ass. nope, it was all luck of the draw. $40,000/yr with $88,000 of debt. my parents had $65,000 of debt, with a $22,000/yr job, 3 kids with another on the way. my mom had to drop out of school and work two full-time jobs while pregnant and taking care of an infant. we had some pretty crappy times, but we got through it. took my parents 25 years to pay off their student loans. it will take them another 25 years to pay off the mortgage on the house, if they ever are able to. so you'll forgive me if i'm not exactly sympathetic to someone who is going to have to pay less in proportion to their income than my parents did and most likely doesn't have kids. everyone in this thread seems to have some idea that life was just a breeze before 2008 and college was so cheap that anyone at all could just waltz in and get it, and that there was ninety jobs for every one college graduate. it's funny to hear the excuses. "it will take a long time to pay off!!" yeah. it will. you may be in debt for the rest of your life, if you weren't careful. and you know what? that sucks, but that's the way stuff works. you take out a loan, you have to pay it back. i don't care what excuses you have, because everyone has excuses: if you did not think you could or would pay back your loans then you should not have taken them. but you did take them. OK, that's fine, you'll have to be uncomfortable. but now you want all the people who did pay their debts, and who did keep their promises, to come in and save you from your own bad choices. you can give me any reason or excuse why we should that you want, but i'm not gonna buy it. earlier someone said, basically: "what a depressing life! i wouldn't want to live like that!" in response to someone saying that they may have to take 20 years paying off their student loans. can i laugh or should i cry at that? so my parents, who took 25 years to pay off their debts, are supposed to now foot the bill so that you don't have to take 20 years to pay off your debt? so I, who am doing everything i can to keep my loans extremely low, have no entertainment budget whatsoever and have no car, am supposed to foot the bill for someone who took out over $100,000 in loans and spent every penny of it in 4 years or less? you want to talk about fairness? how is that fair to me? how is that fair to my parents? no, but you see "lawyer" and you think that we're just swimming in money and we could totally spare some. never-mind that my parents are in huge debt themselves due to bad decisions in their lifetimes, but have not once asked for a handout or forgiveness, and won't get it even if they wanted it. never mind the fact that you made the choice to take out loans and you made the choice to pursue a degree in an area that didn't give you benefit, never mind that none of your debt is anyone elses responsibility. let's just force the responsibility onto other people so that you don't have to take a long time paying back your loans. let's just give everyone grants, because a loan that doesn't have to be payed back is a grant. i have heard all the sob stories. i have heard all of the tales of woe about there being no jobs and no money and crushing debt. i have heard all of it and i sympathize, but at the same time, i don't care. taking care of you and your debts is not my job, is not my parent's job, and is not CEO Richy Rich's job either, and forcing that responsibility on us is not only unfair, it makes no economic sense. colleges will have no incentive whatsoever to lower tuition and costs, and working people who are driving the economy will have another burden added upon their already weighted shoulders. if it sounds harsh and mean, it's because the world is harsh and mean. for the love of christ, how was that not taught to you people in college? + Show Spoiler +
Do not be too harsh to deal out debt and judgement, even the very wise cannot truly see the consequences of either. How about as fellow human beings Instead of ruining peoples lives we could forgive the debt.
Erase it all. Its nothing more than vast numbers on a sheet that will keep growing until the debtors revolt. Debt and the forgiveness of it has existed since the dawn of humanity and it has happened in both small and larger scales since that time. Either in the name of religion or in the name of charity. Would the world not have been better if your mother who was working two jobs to let your father stay afloat could have studied with him?
To the economist it is an impossible insanity, but to the humanist it is simply being human. This bill while not perfect is trying to amend a broken system that currently pains a lot of young people and you need to realize that its not about what happened in the past, but what will happen in the future.
i am not the one who is harsh, i am simply a messenger who gives you a harsh message, it is the world that is harsh. the very wise have always known the consequence of crippling debt, and that is why the very wise have always avoided it.
furthermore, it is not we who are ruining these people's lives. it is not even the world that is ruining their lives, if such a ruining is even occurring, which is doubtful. it is their own choices that are causing them to become indebted. they are the ones who signed up for the loan, and they are the ones who decided that they didn't want it after they already spent all the money.
erasing debt makes no sense whatsoever, and is impossible at such a large scale. payment's must be made by someone, because it is not just "numbers on a sheet", but actual money that has been lent and given. who will shoulder the burden of these payments if we erase it all? people who payed their debt and people who did not rack up a debt will have to shoulder the burden.
would the world have been better if my mother had been able to study? perhaps. perhaps not. such questions are irrelevant. what could have happened or should have happened is a distraction. the reality is that my mother could not have continued to study and support her children, so she did not. the world is not perfect, and it never will be perfect. trying to make it perfect only results in excusing the mistakes of others by putting the responsibility of those mistakes on those who did not make mistakes.
a true humanist would not value the life and debts of the foolish above the life and debts of the wise. nor would he reverse it and value the wise more than the foolish. the true humanist would not force one man to carry another man's burden, no matter how heavy the burden was or how strong the unburdened man is. the bill does not amend a broken system, it simply excuses and encourages a broken system.
what happened in the past is a guide to what will occur in the future. it is easy for you to say: "ignore the past" when the past contains things that you don't like and facts that you don't want to recognize. the fact is, people in the past have lived with their debt and have paid it off. people in the future will have to live with their debt and pay it off, somehow.
|
On April 20 2012 08:14 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Student debt won't wiped clean. If you pay 15% of your discretionary income for 10 years, assuming a 50k salary, that comes out to 75 thousand dollars if I'm not mistaken.
i'm not sure how the legislation itself defines discretionary income, but its generally not considered to be your gross income (i.e., income before taxes).
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/discretionaryincome.asp#axzz1sWzlPhfa
|
On April 20 2012 08:17 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 08:14 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Student debt won't wiped clean. If you pay 15% of your discretionary income for 10 years, assuming a 50k salary, that comes out to 75 thousand dollars if I'm not mistaken. i'm not sure how the legislation itself defines discretionary income, but its generally not considered to be your gross income (i.e., income before taxes). http://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/discretionaryincome.asp#axzz1sWzlPhfa
Oh.
|
The only reason this bill was drafted was because someone wants students to vote for them this election.
This bill will not make it into law, and if it does im taking out insurance policies against some of these loans and making money off it when they default.
|
Instead of absolving the loans after ten years I'd rather see them do something like have payments far more dependent on your current income and depending on that lower the interest rate significantly... say 1 or 2% to those in desperate situations. Maybe for the unemployed even make it 0%. Take it even further by allowing recently unemployed to stop payments for six months before it resumes etc.
|
The forgiveness part of this bill sounds financially retarded, the other portions are more or less meh. One of the biggest problems I noticed in Uni was the fact that people who had no real interest of being there were coming to college because their "parents made them go." This is a cultural problem of middle class/upper middle class families. Forgiving debt will transform it into America's problem.
A lot of these people are getting tens of thousands of dollar in government aid, screwing around, concocting get-rich-fast schemes a la wannabe Zuckerberg or Gates, graduating in 5 or 6 years due to prioritize partying over education, then spending their time starting up various companies with whatever they remember from college. Most of these people are self motivated in things that aren't college (ex/ learning programing, music, or art by themselves). In 10 years the government would have made a grand total of $5,000 off their near nonexistent income (the parents that force kids like these to go to college usually sustain their kids after they get a degree), while having forgiven $50,000 worth of loans (with interest that'd be over $100,000 in 10 years, solid investments can double after 9 years).
Another type of student that ruins the functionality of a plan like this are the "smart" 4.0 high school GPA ones that get "stupid" degrees. There are plenty of people who graduated high school at age 17, listened to their Asian (not racist, I'm an Asian) parents who yelled at them to go to the most prestigious private institution (I know people who went to USC/Yale because they were only 17 when they picked a college and their parents tricked them into it) and then found out that not only do they hate the shit out of law, they actually wanted a liberal arts/sociology degree, and that's their life calling. They graduate in 3 years, but still have crippling debt they can't pay with their 35k a year starting salary. The government will be getting screwed by pretty much anyone who isn't rich that takes student loans to get a degree that doesn't have great starting wages at some place that isn't a community college.
Another type is the one you all know. The guy who drops out of college after being in there too long. This guy is going to be the worst for the plan especially if he plans on not holding a job for long.
Some people just shouldn't be going to college/going to a prestigious college. I had a high GPA in high school, and I maintained a decent one in college. I did not go to a prestigious university. My brother went to an expensive school off a scholarship. He would not have gone if he did not get a scholarship.
It's arrogance and stupidity to reach for the highest simply because you can touch it. If you can't hold onto it, it should be your problem for your own poor financial planning, not America's. There are people racking up over a hundred thousand dollars of college debt and then expecting it to be paid because "they were smart and they deserve an education." Nothing entitles you to having a $100,000-200,000 education except either scholarships or paying for it from with Daddy's credit card. You can't screw America because you tried reaaaaaaalllllllyyyy hard and got an English degree from a private school.
If you really want a degree you can go to a community college. My cousin came over from Guam not 4 years ago, and he went to a community college and ended up great. Education isn't free, good educators aren't free. Education isn't your right. It's not a heart sticker you get for doing good in your little free GPA high school. Education is an investment- America's investment. America shouldn't invest in social workers/"entrepreneurs" that cost $200,000 when they could be investing $20,000 and getting near the same quality, since a lot of professions like these are more about motivation and "soft" skills.
|
On April 20 2012 10:09 boxturtle wrote:
The forgiveness part of this bill sounds financially retarded, the other portions are more or less meh. One of the biggest problems I noticed in Uni was the fact that people who had no real interest of being there were coming to college because their "parents made them go." This is a cultural problem of middle class/upper middle class families. Forgiving debt will transform it into America's problem.
A lot of these people are getting tens of thousands of dollar in government aid, screwing around, concocting get-rich-fast schemes a la wannabe Zuckerberg or Gates, graduating in 5 or 6 years due to prioritize partying over education, then spending their time starting up various companies with whatever they remember from college. Most of these people are self motivated in things that aren't college (ex/ learning programing, music, or art by themselves). In 10 years the government would have made a grand total of $5,000 off their near nonexistent income (the parents that force kids like these to go to college usually sustain their kids after they get a degree), while having forgiven $50,000 worth of loans (with interest that'd be over $100,000 in 10 years, solid investments can double after 9 years).
Another type of student that ruins the functionality of a plan like this are the "smart" 4.0 high school GPA ones that get "stupid" degrees. There are plenty of people who graduated high school at age 17, listened to their Asian (not racist, I'm an Asian) parents who yelled at them to go to the most prestigious private institution (I know people who went to USC/Yale because they were only 17 when they picked a college and their parents tricked them into it) and then found out that not only do they hate the shit out of law, they actually wanted a liberal arts/sociology degree, and that's their life calling. They graduate in 3 years, but still have crippling debt they can't pay with their 35k a year starting salary. The government will be getting screwed by pretty much anyone who isn't rich that takes student loans to get a degree that doesn't have great starting wages at some place that isn't a community college.
Another type is the one you all know. The guy who drops out of college after being in there too long. This guy is going to be the worst for the plan especially if he plans on not holding a job for long.
Some people just shouldn't be going to college/going to a prestigious college. I had a high GPA in high school, and I maintained a decent one in college. I did not go to a prestigious university. My brother went to an expensive school off a scholarship. He would not have gone if he did not get a scholarship.
It's arrogance and stupidity to reach for the highest simply because you can touch it. If you can't hold onto it, it should be your problem for your own poor financial planning, not America's. There are people racking up over a hundred thousand dollars of college debt and then expecting it to be paid because "they were smart and they deserve an education." Nothing entitles you to having a $100,000-200,000 education except either scholarships or paying for it from with Daddy's credit card. You can't screw America because you tried reaaaaaaalllllllyyyy hard and got an English degree from a private school.
If you really want a degree you can go to a community college. My cousin came over from Guam not 4 years ago, and he went to a community college and ended up great. Education isn't free, good educators aren't free. Education isn't your right. It's not a heart sticker you get for doing good in your little free GPA high school. Education is an investment- America's investment. America shouldn't invest in social workers/"entrepreneurs" that cost $200,000 when they could be investing $20,000 and getting near the same quality, since a lot of professions like these are more about motivation and "soft" skills.
People who are able to go these top universities you're speaking of have much easier access to a lot more opportunities. I think everyone should have as fair and equal chance of attending one of these universities as possible. This means better K-12 public education and lower college tuition costs.
|
On April 20 2012 13:37 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 10:09 boxturtle wrote:
The forgiveness part of this bill sounds financially retarded, the other portions are more or less meh. One of the biggest problems I noticed in Uni was the fact that people who had no real interest of being there were coming to college because their "parents made them go." This is a cultural problem of middle class/upper middle class families. Forgiving debt will transform it into America's problem.
A lot of these people are getting tens of thousands of dollar in government aid, screwing around, concocting get-rich-fast schemes a la wannabe Zuckerberg or Gates, graduating in 5 or 6 years due to prioritize partying over education, then spending their time starting up various companies with whatever they remember from college. Most of these people are self motivated in things that aren't college (ex/ learning programing, music, or art by themselves). In 10 years the government would have made a grand total of $5,000 off their near nonexistent income (the parents that force kids like these to go to college usually sustain their kids after they get a degree), while having forgiven $50,000 worth of loans (with interest that'd be over $100,000 in 10 years, solid investments can double after 9 years).
Another type of student that ruins the functionality of a plan like this are the "smart" 4.0 high school GPA ones that get "stupid" degrees. There are plenty of people who graduated high school at age 17, listened to their Asian (not racist, I'm an Asian) parents who yelled at them to go to the most prestigious private institution (I know people who went to USC/Yale because they were only 17 when they picked a college and their parents tricked them into it) and then found out that not only do they hate the shit out of law, they actually wanted a liberal arts/sociology degree, and that's their life calling. They graduate in 3 years, but still have crippling debt they can't pay with their 35k a year starting salary. The government will be getting screwed by pretty much anyone who isn't rich that takes student loans to get a degree that doesn't have great starting wages at some place that isn't a community college.
Another type is the one you all know. The guy who drops out of college after being in there too long. This guy is going to be the worst for the plan especially if he plans on not holding a job for long.
Some people just shouldn't be going to college/going to a prestigious college. I had a high GPA in high school, and I maintained a decent one in college. I did not go to a prestigious university. My brother went to an expensive school off a scholarship. He would not have gone if he did not get a scholarship.
It's arrogance and stupidity to reach for the highest simply because you can touch it. If you can't hold onto it, it should be your problem for your own poor financial planning, not America's. There are people racking up over a hundred thousand dollars of college debt and then expecting it to be paid because "they were smart and they deserve an education." Nothing entitles you to having a $100,000-200,000 education except either scholarships or paying for it from with Daddy's credit card. You can't screw America because you tried reaaaaaaalllllllyyyy hard and got an English degree from a private school.
If you really want a degree you can go to a community college. My cousin came over from Guam not 4 years ago, and he went to a community college and ended up great. Education isn't free, good educators aren't free. Education isn't your right. It's not a heart sticker you get for doing good in your little free GPA high school. Education is an investment- America's investment. America shouldn't invest in social workers/"entrepreneurs" that cost $200,000 when they could be investing $20,000 and getting near the same quality, since a lot of professions like these are more about motivation and "soft" skills. People who are able to go these top universities you're speaking of have much easier access to a lot more opportunities. I think everyone should have as fair and equal chance of attending one of these universities as possible. This means better K-12 public education and lower college tuition costs.
Well I guess we simply disagree. You can try to get a scholarship. That's your way in, really. Get a scholarship, or have money. Or take a gamble with your future that I simply disagree with.
|
On April 18 2012 09:32 Kimaker wrote:
Eh. Colleges are filled with people who shouldn't be there. That's their problem. I hope they don't forgive the loans, so the next generation won't get flooded with degrees who's value just keeps going lower and lower because everyone and their cat has a bachelors.
For everyone saying "we need education to be every more accessible" it's called the internet, books and personal ambition. You can learn SO much now even if you don't go to college as long as you're willing to take the time. You never stop learning if it's what you love.
Going to college doesn't make you smarter, it just means you can jump through hoops.
Microsoft, please hire me. I got my degree on THE INTERNET!
Being serious tho, I think education reform should come in some other form than just throwing money at people. We need to reform our education to make our college degrees worthwhile before helping people get them.
|
On April 20 2012 14:35 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 13:37 Voltaire wrote:On April 20 2012 10:09 boxturtle wrote:
The forgiveness part of this bill sounds financially retarded, the other portions are more or less meh. One of the biggest problems I noticed in Uni was the fact that people who had no real interest of being there were coming to college because their "parents made them go." This is a cultural problem of middle class/upper middle class families. Forgiving debt will transform it into America's problem.
A lot of these people are getting tens of thousands of dollar in government aid, screwing around, concocting get-rich-fast schemes a la wannabe Zuckerberg or Gates, graduating in 5 or 6 years due to prioritize partying over education, then spending their time starting up various companies with whatever they remember from college. Most of these people are self motivated in things that aren't college (ex/ learning programing, music, or art by themselves). In 10 years the government would have made a grand total of $5,000 off their near nonexistent income (the parents that force kids like these to go to college usually sustain their kids after they get a degree), while having forgiven $50,000 worth of loans (with interest that'd be over $100,000 in 10 years, solid investments can double after 9 years).
Another type of student that ruins the functionality of a plan like this are the "smart" 4.0 high school GPA ones that get "stupid" degrees. There are plenty of people who graduated high school at age 17, listened to their Asian (not racist, I'm an Asian) parents who yelled at them to go to the most prestigious private institution (I know people who went to USC/Yale because they were only 17 when they picked a college and their parents tricked them into it) and then found out that not only do they hate the shit out of law, they actually wanted a liberal arts/sociology degree, and that's their life calling. They graduate in 3 years, but still have crippling debt they can't pay with their 35k a year starting salary. The government will be getting screwed by pretty much anyone who isn't rich that takes student loans to get a degree that doesn't have great starting wages at some place that isn't a community college.
Another type is the one you all know. The guy who drops out of college after being in there too long. This guy is going to be the worst for the plan especially if he plans on not holding a job for long.
Some people just shouldn't be going to college/going to a prestigious college. I had a high GPA in high school, and I maintained a decent one in college. I did not go to a prestigious university. My brother went to an expensive school off a scholarship. He would not have gone if he did not get a scholarship.
It's arrogance and stupidity to reach for the highest simply because you can touch it. If you can't hold onto it, it should be your problem for your own poor financial planning, not America's. There are people racking up over a hundred thousand dollars of college debt and then expecting it to be paid because "they were smart and they deserve an education." Nothing entitles you to having a $100,000-200,000 education except either scholarships or paying for it from with Daddy's credit card. You can't screw America because you tried reaaaaaaalllllllyyyy hard and got an English degree from a private school.
If you really want a degree you can go to a community college. My cousin came over from Guam not 4 years ago, and he went to a community college and ended up great. Education isn't free, good educators aren't free. Education isn't your right. It's not a heart sticker you get for doing good in your little free GPA high school. Education is an investment- America's investment. America shouldn't invest in social workers/"entrepreneurs" that cost $200,000 when they could be investing $20,000 and getting near the same quality, since a lot of professions like these are more about motivation and "soft" skills. People who are able to go these top universities you're speaking of have much easier access to a lot more opportunities. I think everyone should have as fair and equal chance of attending one of these universities as possible. This means better K-12 public education and lower college tuition costs. Well I guess we simply disagree. You can try to get a scholarship. That's your way in, really. Get a scholarship, or have money. Or take a gamble with your future that I simply disagree with.
But if the government can "pretend" you have the money and then once that is over you pay it back np than why should that (being born poor - this is honestly what you think?) stop the brightest minds in the country?
|
It would be really nice if anyone posting accusations would research the material first... I mean, the amount of anti-american hate here is just sad imo. (And it's not very well founded. I mean you cant critisise this, and then go on to complain about how the system favors the rich... thats the POINT, ( I mean thats why I love America, you dont punish the wealthy for making money.)
|
On April 20 2012 19:19 seppolevne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2012 14:35 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 20 2012 13:37 Voltaire wrote:On April 20 2012 10:09 boxturtle wrote:
The forgiveness part of this bill sounds financially retarded, the other portions are more or less meh. One of the biggest problems I noticed in Uni was the fact that people who had no real interest of being there were coming to college because their "parents made them go." This is a cultural problem of middle class/upper middle class families. Forgiving debt will transform it into America's problem.
A lot of these people are getting tens of thousands of dollar in government aid, screwing around, concocting get-rich-fast schemes a la wannabe Zuckerberg or Gates, graduating in 5 or 6 years due to prioritize partying over education, then spending their time starting up various companies with whatever they remember from college. Most of these people are self motivated in things that aren't college (ex/ learning programing, music, or art by themselves). In 10 years the government would have made a grand total of $5,000 off their near nonexistent income (the parents that force kids like these to go to college usually sustain their kids after they get a degree), while having forgiven $50,000 worth of loans (with interest that'd be over $100,000 in 10 years, solid investments can double after 9 years).
Another type of student that ruins the functionality of a plan like this are the "smart" 4.0 high school GPA ones that get "stupid" degrees. There are plenty of people who graduated high school at age 17, listened to their Asian (not racist, I'm an Asian) parents who yelled at them to go to the most prestigious private institution (I know people who went to USC/Yale because they were only 17 when they picked a college and their parents tricked them into it) and then found out that not only do they hate the shit out of law, they actually wanted a liberal arts/sociology degree, and that's their life calling. They graduate in 3 years, but still have crippling debt they can't pay with their 35k a year starting salary. The government will be getting screwed by pretty much anyone who isn't rich that takes student loans to get a degree that doesn't have great starting wages at some place that isn't a community college.
Another type is the one you all know. The guy who drops out of college after being in there too long. This guy is going to be the worst for the plan especially if he plans on not holding a job for long.
Some people just shouldn't be going to college/going to a prestigious college. I had a high GPA in high school, and I maintained a decent one in college. I did not go to a prestigious university. My brother went to an expensive school off a scholarship. He would not have gone if he did not get a scholarship.
It's arrogance and stupidity to reach for the highest simply because you can touch it. If you can't hold onto it, it should be your problem for your own poor financial planning, not America's. There are people racking up over a hundred thousand dollars of college debt and then expecting it to be paid because "they were smart and they deserve an education." Nothing entitles you to having a $100,000-200,000 education except either scholarships or paying for it from with Daddy's credit card. You can't screw America because you tried reaaaaaaalllllllyyyy hard and got an English degree from a private school.
If you really want a degree you can go to a community college. My cousin came over from Guam not 4 years ago, and he went to a community college and ended up great. Education isn't free, good educators aren't free. Education isn't your right. It's not a heart sticker you get for doing good in your little free GPA high school. Education is an investment- America's investment. America shouldn't invest in social workers/"entrepreneurs" that cost $200,000 when they could be investing $20,000 and getting near the same quality, since a lot of professions like these are more about motivation and "soft" skills. People who are able to go these top universities you're speaking of have much easier access to a lot more opportunities. I think everyone should have as fair and equal chance of attending one of these universities as possible. This means better K-12 public education and lower college tuition costs. Well I guess we simply disagree. You can try to get a scholarship. That's your way in, really. Get a scholarship, or have money. Or take a gamble with your future that I simply disagree with. But if the government can "pretend" you have the money and then once that is over you pay it back np than why should that (being born poor - this is honestly what you think?) stop the brightest minds in the country?
Ok, pay it back then. What's the issue? If you really want to use the "brightest minds" argument than they should have gotten a scholarship...
|
From 2007-2010 I was able to afford my education. Since then, I've had to obtain loans to cover the rest. I don't necessarily think that the loan situation is the problem, but rather the inflated tuition that is occurring. Inflation is not meeting our pay.
|
On April 18 2012 09:20 sc2superfan101 wrote:
i dont like it. no one forgave my parents student loans that they spent years working off, so why does anyone else deserve it? balderdash.
Tuition has skyrocketed since your parents went to school.
One of the reasons this bill is a good idea, is because this bill rewards people for becoming teachers, instead of punishing them. Teachers make far too little to make it really worth paying the money to become a teacher.
Furthermore, why am I even bothering to pay my student loan back? Sallie Mae took hundreds of millions of dollars in federal bailout funds because they couldn't pay their bills. Shouldn't that cover my debt?
*Edit* Rage.
|
On April 21 2012 04:11 ranshaked wrote:
From 2007-2010 I was able to afford my education. Since then, I've had to obtain loans to cover the rest. I don't necessarily think that the loan situation is the problem, but rather the inflated tuition that is occurring. Inflation is not meeting our pay.
The thing is, tuition skyrocketing is a big thing, but at least for public universities, it's not going to make a MASSIVE "omg I can't ever pay this back" difference. Tuition has increased to probably an additional 80% of what it was. Assuming tuition now costs 12.5k per year and used to cost 7k per year, then that's an additional 5.5k per year, over 4 years, and additional 22k. Yeah, it's a lot of money. But people are talking about 150k loans etc.
Grad school is an entirely different issue than undergrad and there's NO WAY I would support massive subsidazation of grad school. Education costs money, and no, I don't think you're entitled to as much education as you want, regardless of your potential, although if you have the potential from what I've seen grad school is generally not that bad at public universities since becoming a TA in a large majority of the fields means your tuition and a large portion of your rent is covered.
|
On April 21 2012 04:20 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 04:11 ranshaked wrote:
From 2007-2010 I was able to afford my education. Since then, I've had to obtain loans to cover the rest. I don't necessarily think that the loan situation is the problem, but rather the inflated tuition that is occurring. Inflation is not meeting our pay. The thing is, tuition skyrocketing is a big thing, but at least for public universities, it's not going to make a MASSIVE "omg I can't ever pay this back" difference. Tuition has increased to probably an additional 80% of what it was. Assuming tuition now costs 12.5k per year and used to cost 7k per year, then that's an additional 5.5k per year, over 4 years, and additional 22k. Yeah, it's a lot of money. But people are talking about 150k loans etc. Grad school is an entirely different issue than undergrad and there's NO WAY I would support massive subsidazation of grad school. Education costs money, and no, I don't think you're entitled to as much education as you want, regardless of your potential, although if you have the potential from what I've seen grad school is generally not that bad at public universities since becoming a TA in a large majority of the fields means your tuition and a large portion of your rent is covered.
Tuition is going up from 2-parts.
1. Inflation: It's healthy that the tuition is higher then your parents. Thats the way this economy is supposed to work.
2. Decrease in government subsidies. Less money is going to education, and it's being directed towards other things because the government doesn't have infinite amounts of money. Every sector is receiving cuts.
Making the government pay for defaulting loans will only hurt this situation.
|
On April 21 2012 04:20 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 04:11 ranshaked wrote:
From 2007-2010 I was able to afford my education. Since then, I've had to obtain loans to cover the rest. I don't necessarily think that the loan situation is the problem, but rather the inflated tuition that is occurring. Inflation is not meeting our pay. The thing is, tuition skyrocketing is a big thing, but at least for public universities, it's not going to make a MASSIVE "omg I can't ever pay this back" difference. Tuition has increased to probably an additional 80% of what it was. Assuming tuition now costs 12.5k per year and used to cost 7k per year, then that's an additional 5.5k per year, over 4 years, and additional 22k. Yeah, it's a lot of money. But people are talking about 150k loans etc. Grad school is an entirely different issue than undergrad and there's NO WAY I would support massive subsidazation of grad school. Education costs money, and no, I don't think you're entitled to as much education as you want, regardless of your potential, although if you have the potential from what I've seen grad school is generally not that bad at public universities since becoming a TA in a large majority of the fields means your tuition and a large portion of your rent is covered.
Why should I have to pay an additional 80% when the following aren't happening:
1) My education is no different than it was in 2007
2) My pay has not increased even half that, in fact it has decreased
3) The fees and interest rate that I will be paying is going to be double what I could have done before.
With all of that said, it would have been more logical of me to take a loan out of 10k 5 years ago, and then used it toward my degree now. I just don't appreciate the tuition hikes. It's unfair to those that already cannot afford it, to put them in even more debt.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
