Mr. Shin Dong-hyuk is a North Korean who was born in and escaped from an NK gulag. He is one of only 3 people known to have done so. He is now a human-rights activist living in Seoul.
I thought it a relevant story what with the Korean flavor of eSports (Starcraft in particular) and with the recent news attention on the NK missile launch. I did a search but didn't find any thread about him yet so mods please correct me if I missed it.
Some of the more harrowing elements of his story: - Born as a result of a 'reward marriage' and being raised by prison guards, seeing his family members only as competitors for food. - Having his finger hacked off as punishment for dropping a sewing machine. - Finding a few grains of edible corn in cow dung and feeling like it was his lucky day. - The rape of his cousin by prison guards and the beating to death of a young girl found with five grains of unauthorized wheat in her pocket. - Being brainwashed at a young age to turn in anyone heard to be planning an escape, as anyone attempting an escape was executed along with anyone who were found to have known about the escape and not reported it. - Turning in his mother and brother for planning an escape and then watching them be tortured and murdered, then later himself being tortured for his efforts. - Effecting an escape with a friend who after attempting to climb an electric fence and dying, had Shin climb over his body to continue on.
A video interview with him about his life:
A journalist named Blaine Harden has collaborated with Shin recently to write a book about his story that is now available for purchase:
A line from the video above in particular got me choked up, being a dad myself:
"When I was a child in the prison camp, I still had to work but they gave me a 30 minute, 1 hour break. When I played, I forgot about everything - from the beating in the morning, to not receiving rations because I didn't finish my work.
I forgot about all these things when I played. Until today, that is still my best memory."
A story like this makes you look at North Korea's young counterparts in South Korea having fun playing computer games for a living and gives it some much needed perspective.
Oh wow, this guy has been through a lot. Watching the death of his mother and brother, and having to crawl over the dead body of a friend. Sheeh, makes me really appreciate how easy my life has been.
Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
I don't think its just that easy. We would probably go into a Cold War again with high leaders debating agreements and with the overall threat of Mutually Assured Destruction. (Not sure how many warheads NK has but even a few could still do a ton of damage.) But I do agree that something does need to be done about this.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
I'm strongly against the North Korean regime but why do you feel that America has to be the world police and invade North Korea?
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because they don't have natural resources to take.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because they don't have natural resources to take.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because they don't have natural resources to take.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
I'm strongly against the North Korean regime but why do you feel that America has to be the world police and invade North Korea?
...
He never mentions America needing to be the "world police." Just the opposite, he's asking the world to respond. Your anti-Americanism from your misinterpretation of his post is glaring.
When we talk about NK we say they don´t respect human rights and they torture people but how the film showed none of us can imagine what torture really means.
What was surprising me is that the journalist who picked this guy up lost his job. That shows me how "free" journalist are in their job what is pretty sad.
I feel so sorry for him. The amount of pain and torture he must've went through must have been unbearable.. Daily beatings, torture and they just execute people for the smallest things wtf..
I can't believe they made him watch his brother and mother get executed also.. that is so fucking inhumane.
I feel so sorry that so many people are being hurt like this in the world. I wish someone would just do something, end the people's suffering already.
This is terrible stuff. However, is it possible that not all of his accounts are real? I'm not accusing but I just want to point out that he could essentially make up stuff to make NK look worse and probably get away with it. Again, I do believe him but I think we should always question the validity of first hand accounts.
Not to detract from this guy's story, but if you're interested in the topic... There's a few books you should read that are very good. One is The Aquariums of Pyongyang. It's by Kang Cholhwan. He was in a NK gulag for 10 years before escaping. He paints quite the picture in his book. Another interesting book that sheds quite a bit of light on NK from the perspective of someone "in the know" is called The Tears of My Soul. This book was written by the NK spy that failed in killing herself when being arrested for the bombing of the Korean Air Flight 858. Between reading a book on a guy that spent so long in a gulag and reading about NK raising an elite spy from her own words, you can get a real feel for the insanity that is NK.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
China and Russia won't allow it. Maybe one day they will, but not yet. Also, you have to understand how many artillery pieces are in range of Seoul. Missiles be damned, the conventional artillery in range of Seoul is reason enough not to attack NK. There's a reason SK tolerates the bullshit and attacks over the years...
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
China and Russia won't allow it. Maybe one day they will, but not yet. Also, you have to understand how many artillery pieces are in range of Seoul. Missiles be damned, the conventional artillery in range of Seoul is reason enough not to attack NK. There's a reason SK tolerates the bullshit and attacks over the years...
Don't misunderstand what antimatterz wrote. Its not that China and Russia are ok with what NK does but they sure as hell will have a problem with any country or countries that will attempt to take over NK and have a foothold in a region right next to them. If America invades and takes over NK, you cant even imagine how pissed China and Russia will be.
Seeing the number of people who would accept yet another invasion of a foreign country is really frightening me. A whole country being oppressed isn't a sufficient reason to start a war and massacre them.
No one really wants to start a war or massacre North Koreas... I'm simply saying why more isn't done (not necessarily war), the reason status quo continues. We can only hope the regime collapses on itself or China finally pulls the plug on its trouble making child. It's just an all around shitty situation.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because the situation is a lot more complicated than 'lets fight the evil guys'. A quick list:
- Hundreds of artillery pieces aimed at the capitol of South Korea, ready to devastate it like a person held hostage - Three major world powers coming close together in that area of the world - Millions of low skilled refugees that we can't just all get rid of with a gun, the country taking in these refugees would take a big economic hit
Sitting back and hoping the regime collapses into itself is far less taxing on human life as a full scale invasion would be.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
I don't think its just that easy. We would probably go into a Cold War again with high leaders debating agreements and with the overall threat of Mutually Assured Destruction. (Not sure how many warheads NK has but even a few could still do a ton of damage.) But I do agree that something does need to be done about this.
I think that NK (from what I've read on the subject) can only damage South Korea (which they dont want, they are "at war", but they're korean, any korean would tell you that a real war wont happen), and Japan, they cant reach anything other than that, but if they get attacked and invaded, I think they could destroy most of Seoul, not most, but I mean do such huge casualties, and thats kinda their leverage, I think Japan could avoid getting hit by too many missiles and a naval attack cant really happen they arent even close to the technology required.
And second, it is easy, as the guy you quoted, to get all emotional and forget about the history of their country, what they've been thru, and the reasons behind this isolation and self destruction that is todays North Korea. Thinking of a nerd going "Fuck this lets invade them and stop this!" in his chair makes me laugh / sad. And he probably thinks that north koreans hate their country and would do anything to get out of it, but reality is most dont (a non negligeable part must yeah), but some are brain washed, some just believe in their country and the fact that all the world did in Korea until WW2 (and especially during, that is why they still hate Japan and threaten them) was massacre, rape, and invade their country. They grew in hate of the rest of the world, and now they're stuck in this horrible position.
Only thing that could work, is slow negotiations that would led to a possible re-unification of the two Koreas, or at least some kind of heavy partnership that would help NK get back on track, but that would be in such a fucking long time that they will starve to death if the situation keeps that way, and be so behind on every level, education, technology, ideology, arts, that it would be a disaster, and north koreans would be considered as savages if mixed with the south. It's a crazy fucking situation just to think how it will probably evolve in the next 50 years, but for now, things wont change, they'll try to act like they can destroy the world and try to use that as a pressure to get humanitarian help etc. Lets just hope they do an opening gesture and process towards South Korea in less than 20 years, because else yeah, we're watching a country die litterally. But a military solution wont ever work, you cant transition out of violence, no cant do
Wait a second, why does he look so cheerful? such thoughts seem to be so terrifying. Perhaps the way he was brought up, he was to learn not to feel, or rather he grew up watching horrible things normally. (Maybe that's it, since he's talking about missing his family and stuff later but still seems to have a smile on o.o)
Maybe the translation is a bit off but...
The story with the friend sounds so tragic. How does he just climb over him, and not realize that he's stuck there? What? He couldn't see the barbed wire? Did he think his friend was in a still position over the fence to allow him to climb over? (If he were to do that, and the guy in the video climbed over, and the guy under was going to climb through after him, why not just both climb that way?)
Also what does he mean when he says he might have survived if others saw him? Like if others in the camp noticed a man on the fence? Why didn't he pull him off himself? Actually if you touched him would you be electrocuted too? (apparently not if he climbed over the dude)
(of course when you are in a panic situation you don't think straight, maybe that's just why?)
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
I don't think its just that easy. We would probably go into a Cold War again with high leaders debating agreements and with the overall threat of Mutually Assured Destruction. (Not sure how many warheads NK has but even a few could still do a ton of damage.) But I do agree that something does need to be done about this.
North Korea has nothing. They don't have the technology to get a uranium 238 isotope let alone figure out how to use it to create a weapon.
Think of them as that kid that always talks about his cock and how big it is although in reality we realize the kid just has a pussy.
i still stand by my idealistic solution to the NK problem, airdrop / catapult textbooks, magazines, 100$ laptops, musicals, teabags, dvds and basically everything you try to get rid of in a garage sale into the country.
as the op said that he got choked up at "When I was a child in the prison camp, I still had to work but they gave me a 30 minute, 1 hour break. When I played, I forgot about everything - from the beating in the morning, to not receiving rations because I didn't finish my work.
I forgot about all these things when I played. Until today, that is still my best memory."
.. im not even a father and when i read that it choked me up... this video really touches me dearly... argh.. >_<
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
I don't think its just that easy. We would probably go into a Cold War again with high leaders debating agreements and with the overall threat of Mutually Assured Destruction. (Not sure how many warheads NK has but even a few could still do a ton of damage.) But I do agree that something does need to be done about this.
North Korea has nothing. They don't have the technology to get a uranium 238 isotope let alone figure out how to use it to create a weapon.
Think of them as that kid that always talks about his cock and how big it is although in reality we realize the kid just has a pussy.
They've successfully tested missiles back in 2006 and 2009. This is their very first rocket failure.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
I don't think its just that easy. We would probably go into a Cold War again with high leaders debating agreements and with the overall threat of Mutually Assured Destruction. (Not sure how many warheads NK has but even a few could still do a ton of damage.) But I do agree that something does need to be done about this.
North Korea has nothing. They don't have the technology to get a uranium 238 isotope let alone figure out how to use it to create a weapon.
Think of them as that kid that always talks about his cock and how big it is although in reality we realize the kid just has a pussy.
They've successfully tested missiles back in 2006 and 2009. This is their very first rocket failure.
I've heard this man's story before in a documentary on North Korea I watched a year ago. Even though it was a re-enactment the scenes of his escape and the story told from his perspective made it seem very frightening.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
We don't have abundance of resources here so I doubt U.N.'s Big 5 would care about it.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
We don't have abundance of resources here so I doubt U.N.'s Big 5 would care about it.
'We'? Are you currently living in NK? If not, why are you listing NK as your country? I find this a bit impudent, especially with the backgrounds of topics like in this thread.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
We don't have abundance of resources here so I doubt U.N.'s Big 5 would care about it.
'We'? Are you currently living in NK? If not, why are you listing NK as your country? I find this a bit impudent, especially with the backgrounds of topics like in this thread.
I kid .... no I don't live in NK neither would i like to live in NK.
What I mean to say is that NK doesn't interest other countries because it doesn't have resources on its land.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
We don't have abundance of resources here so I doubt U.N.'s Big 5 would care about it.
How are you on the internet if you are in North Korea?...
Obvious the nation is oppressed and brainwashed but I never heard of anything like that happening (not in such richness) in USSR. At least there was some protection and moral ground for citizens, this is just brutal.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
I don't think its just that easy. We would probably go into a Cold War again with high leaders debating agreements and with the overall threat of Mutually Assured Destruction. (Not sure how many warheads NK has but even a few could still do a ton of damage.) But I do agree that something does need to be done about this.
North Korea has nothing. They don't have the technology to get a uranium 238 isotope let alone figure out how to use it to create a weapon.
Think of them as that kid that always talks about his cock and how big it is although in reality we realize the kid just has a pussy.
They've successfully tested missiles back in 2006 and 2009. This is their very first rocket failure.
Great they can shoot off a simple missile that a gr 11 chemistry student could make in his backyard.
I'm talking atomic weapons, weapons that don't destroy cities but countries.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because the situation is a lot more complicated than 'lets fight the evil guys'. A quick list:
- Hundreds of artillery pieces aimed at the capitol of South Korea, ready to devastate it like a person held hostage - Three major world powers coming close together in that area of the world - Millions of low skilled refugees that we can't just all get rid of with a gun, the country taking in these refugees would take a big economic hit
Sitting back and hoping the regime collapses into itself is far less taxing on human life as a full scale invasion would be.
200k North Korean soldiers killed, or 20k innocents killed every year? You pick. And what about freedom? The world have the ability to grant the 25 million North Korean ppl the freedom that they never had. It's been obvious for over 20 years that the North Korean regime have been extremely oppressive towards their ppl.
What would you do if you saw some guys beat up someone in the streets? It's your duty to help him, even if it means that you get caught up in a fight that you had nothing to do with. Ppl these days are so spineless and selfish. They're only willing to help the weak if they don't have to make sacrifices of their own.
Diplomatic relations should always be the first focus, but there comes a point when enough is enough, because you have to think about the ongoing suffering. If a parent in the western world abuses their children, then the authorities will takes over custody against their will, so why should the UN accept North Korea? By common moral standards it's a invalid regime, so it's our obligation to take it down.
Wow. So touching. This man really has all the courage in the world to have gone through all those events and manage to escape NK. We humans are sometimes very remarkable!
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because the situation is a lot more complicated than 'lets fight the evil guys'. A quick list:
- Hundreds of artillery pieces aimed at the capitol of South Korea, ready to devastate it like a person held hostage - Three major world powers coming close together in that area of the world - Millions of low skilled refugees that we can't just all get rid of with a gun, the country taking in these refugees would take a big economic hit
Sitting back and hoping the regime collapses into itself is far less taxing on human life as a full scale invasion would be.
200k North Korean soldiers killed, or 20k innocents killed every year? You pick. And what about freedom? The world have the ability to grant the 25 million North Korean ppl the freedom that they never had. It's been obvious for over 20 years that the North Korean regime have been extremely oppressive towards their ppl.
What would you do if you saw some guys beat up someone in the streets? It's your duty to help him, even if it means that you get caught up in a fight that you had nothing to do with. Ppl these days are so spineless and selfish. They're only willing to help the weak if they don't have to make sacrifices of their own.
Diplomatic relations should always be the first focus, but there comes a point when enough is enough, because you have to think about the ongoing suffering. If a parent in the western world abuses their children, then the authorities will takes over custody against their will, so why should the UN accept North Korea? By common moral standards it's a invalid regime, so it's our obligation to take it down.
Wait till you move everything you own and live at Seoul then say that.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
We don't have abundance of resources here so I doubt U.N.'s Big 5 would care about it.
'We'? Are you currently living in NK? If not, why are you listing NK as your country? I find this a bit impudent, especially with the backgrounds of topics like in this thread.
I kid .... no I don't live in NK neither would i like to live in NK.
What I mean to say is that NK doesn't interest other countries because it doesn't have resources on its land.
NK very much interests other countries...
Obvious the nation is oppressed and brainwashed but I never heard of anything like that happening (not in such richness) in USSR. At least there was some protection and moral ground for citizens, this is just brutal.
The USSR from ~1930 to the mid 1950s was just as bad.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because the situation is a lot more complicated than 'lets fight the evil guys'. A quick list:
- Hundreds of artillery pieces aimed at the capitol of South Korea, ready to devastate it like a person held hostage - Three major world powers coming close together in that area of the world - Millions of low skilled refugees that we can't just all get rid of with a gun, the country taking in these refugees would take a big economic hit
Sitting back and hoping the regime collapses into itself is far less taxing on human life as a full scale invasion would be.
200k North Korean soldiers killed, or 20k innocents killed every year? You pick. And what about freedom? The world have the ability to grant the 25 million North Korean ppl the freedom that they never had. It's been obvious for over 20 years that the North Korean regime have been extremely oppressive towards their ppl.
What would you do if you saw some guys beat up someone in the streets? It's your duty to help him, even if it means that you get caught up in a fight that you had nothing to do with. Ppl these days are so spineless and selfish. They're only willing to help the weak if they don't have to make sacrifices of their own.
Diplomatic relations should always be the first focus, but there comes a point when enough is enough, because you have to think about the ongoing suffering. If a parent in the western world abuses their children, then the authorities will takes over custody against their will, so why should the UN accept North Korea? By common moral standards it's a invalid regime, so it's our obligation to take it down.
Mini, although I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, this bully-victim-bystandar analogy breaks down when talking about the NK-SK situation. Like previous posters mentioned, Seoul is in the cross-hairs of NKs army with it being so close to the border. Should war break out, 100s of artillery pieces are waiting to rain down death upon them. Who's to know if some of them are not already nuclear armed?
Secondly is their relationship with China. China supports NK economically and militarily by trading with the regime which is why international sanctions have not been effective. Any overthrow of the NK government without Chinas approval has the risk of elevating to war with them as well.
And lastly there are the casualties of war itself. Civilians will no doubt get caught in the crossfire, or even be placed there by the NK government themselves. Remember when Saddam was hiding his weapon caches and military installations near schools and mosques? Do you think the NK government wouldn't stoop to that?
Then there is the problem of what you do with North Koreans should you succeed in their liberation. Think of the millions of refugees there would be who are culturally and economically way behind their southern counterparts. The two countries would have to be merged somehow but in the meantime there would be lawlessness and chaos.
No doubt their situation is a difficult one with no clear solution. So sadly right now the world waits and prays for the NK people.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
The cost of war with NK would be terrible, and those who would bear the brunt would be in Seoul. Every time I hear about the camps there I feel so helpless because I have no idea what can be done to bring about change without inviting a war that would decimate SK.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Last I checked North Korea has around the third largest army in the world.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Last I checked North Korea has around the third largest army in the world.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Last I checked North Korea has around the third largest army in the world.
"Largest" is a relative term.
Sure you're right that quantity and quality are two independents parameters, but talking about making war against a country in front of China is hazardous, it'll mean at least having Russia and China on your side.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because the situation is a lot more complicated than 'lets fight the evil guys'. A quick list:
- Hundreds of artillery pieces aimed at the capitol of South Korea, ready to devastate it like a person held hostage - Three major world powers coming close together in that area of the world - Millions of low skilled refugees that we can't just all get rid of with a gun, the country taking in these refugees would take a big economic hit
Sitting back and hoping the regime collapses into itself is far less taxing on human life as a full scale invasion would be.
200k North Korean soldiers killed, or 20k innocents killed every year? You pick. And what about freedom? The world have the ability to grant the 25 million North Korean ppl the freedom that they never had. It's been obvious for over 20 years that the North Korean regime have been extremely oppressive towards their ppl.
What would you do if you saw some guys beat up someone in the streets? It's your duty to help him, even if it means that you get caught up in a fight that you had nothing to do with. Ppl these days are so spineless and selfish. They're only willing to help the weak if they don't have to make sacrifices of their own.
Diplomatic relations should always be the first focus, but there comes a point when enough is enough, because you have to think about the ongoing suffering. If a parent in the western world abuses their children, then the authorities will takes over custody against their will, so why should the UN accept North Korea? By common moral standards it's a invalid regime, so it's our obligation to take it down.
Mini, I agree with you whole heatedly here. Although the analogy of bully-victim-bystander is a good one, it breaks down when talking about the NK-SK situation. Like previous posters mentioned, Seoul is in the cross-hairs of NKs army with it being so close to the border. Should war break out, 100s of artillery pieces are waiting to rain down death upon them. Who's to know if some of them are not already nuclear armed?
Secondly is their relationship with China. China supports NK economically and militarily by trading with the regime which is why international sanctions have not been effective. Any overthrow of the NK government without Chinas approval has the risk of elevating to war with them as well.
And lastly there are the casualties of war itself. Civilians will no doubt get caught in the crossfire, or even be placed there by the NK government themselves. Remember when Saddam was hiding his weapon caches and military installations near schools and mosques? Do you think the NK government wouldn't stoop to that?
Then there is the problem of what you do with North Koreans should you succeed in their liberation. Think of the millions of refugees there would be who are culturally and economically way behind their southern counterparts. The two countries would have to be merged somehow but in the meantime there would be lawlessness and chaos.
No doubt their situation is a difficult one with no clear solution. So sadly right now the world waits and prays for the NK people.
People are overestimating China's role. Only weeks before Kim Jong Il died, he traveled to China to meet with some chinese politicians, and considering he had been ill for a while, it shows desperation from their part. It would make sense that he would stay at home, and send out a representative instead. This shows that China doesn't really take NK seriously, or atleast aren't very close. China is not a threat to USA. They don't have a strong enough army to take them on, and they don't want to either. NK haven't been "trading" weapons since the Iron Curtain fell. Their army relies on old russian weaponry from the 80's, which even back then was slightly behind the US weaponry. China will never declare war on USA, and USA will never declare war on China, irregardless of the NK situation.
Anyway, as far as Seoul goes. They are or atleast should be prepared for the North Korean artillery. The thing is, North Korea have no fuel and their air-force is a joke, while SK and USA are the two world leaders in air technology. In these days you win wars with air. If war broke out, the ppl of Seoul would just have to be situated at bomb shelters for a few days max, while waiting for the US/SK airforce to take out all of the North Korean rocketry. This would be similar to what happened in Libya. Economic damage is inevitable, but how could anyone value a couple of skyscrapers over the freedom of 25 million ppl? Concerning who should be paying to build up North Korea afterwards is irrelevant too, since it's just a question of money, but for starters, South Korea's military budget is around half of North Koreas total GDP. North Korea's production is mostly slavery anyway, especially the mining industry.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Last I checked North Korea has around the third largest army in the world.
I take it you mean people size.
Were you taking into account the fact that they aren't even on the top ten of the world's largest military spenders?
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because the situation is a lot more complicated than 'lets fight the evil guys'. A quick list:
- Hundreds of artillery pieces aimed at the capitol of South Korea, ready to devastate it like a person held hostage - Three major world powers coming close together in that area of the world - Millions of low skilled refugees that we can't just all get rid of with a gun, the country taking in these refugees would take a big economic hit
Sitting back and hoping the regime collapses into itself is far less taxing on human life as a full scale invasion would be.
200k North Korean soldiers killed, or 20k innocents killed every year? You pick. And what about freedom? The world have the ability to grant the 25 million North Korean ppl the freedom that they never had. It's been obvious for over 20 years that the North Korean regime have been extremely oppressive towards their ppl.
What would you do if you saw some guys beat up someone in the streets? It's your duty to help him, even if it means that you get caught up in a fight that you had nothing to do with. Ppl these days are so spineless and selfish. They're only willing to help the weak if they don't have to make sacrifices of their own.
Diplomatic relations should always be the first focus, but there comes a point when enough is enough, because you have to think about the ongoing suffering. If a parent in the western world abuses their children, then the authorities will takes over custody against their will, so why should the UN accept North Korea? By common moral standards it's a invalid regime, so it's our obligation to take it down.
Mini, I agree with you whole heatedly here. Although the analogy of bully-victim-bystander is a good one, it breaks down when talking about the NK-SK situation. Like previous posters mentioned, Seoul is in the cross-hairs of NKs army with it being so close to the border. Should war break out, 100s of artillery pieces are waiting to rain down death upon them. Who's to know if some of them are not already nuclear armed?
Secondly is their relationship with China. China supports NK economically and militarily by trading with the regime which is why international sanctions have not been effective. Any overthrow of the NK government without Chinas approval has the risk of elevating to war with them as well.
And lastly there are the casualties of war itself. Civilians will no doubt get caught in the crossfire, or even be placed there by the NK government themselves. Remember when Saddam was hiding his weapon caches and military installations near schools and mosques? Do you think the NK government wouldn't stoop to that?
Then there is the problem of what you do with North Koreans should you succeed in their liberation. Think of the millions of refugees there would be who are culturally and economically way behind their southern counterparts. The two countries would have to be merged somehow but in the meantime there would be lawlessness and chaos.
No doubt their situation is a difficult one with no clear solution. So sadly right now the world waits and prays for the NK people.
People are overestimating China's role. Only weeks before Kim Jong Il died, he traveled to China to meet with some chinese politicians, and considering he had been ill for a while, it shows desperation from their part. It would make sense that he would stay at home, and send out a representative instead. This shows that China doesn't really take NK seriously, or atleast aren't very close. China is not a threat to USA. They don't have a strong enough army to take them on, and they don't want to either. NK haven't been "trading" weapons since the Iron Curtain fell. Their army relies on old russian weaponry from the 80's, which even back then was slightly behind the US weaponry. China will never declare war on USA, and USA will never declare war on China, irregardless of the NK situation.
Anyway, as far as Seoul goes. They are or atleast should be prepared for the North Korean artillery. The thing is, North Korea have no fuel and their air-force is a joke, while SK and USA are the two world leaders in air technology. In these days you win wars with air. If war broke out, the ppl of Seoul would just have to be situated at bomb shelters for a few days max, while waiting for the US/SK airforce to take out all of the North Korean rocketry. This would be similar to what happened in Libya. Economic damage is inevitable, but how could anyone value a couple of skyscrapers over the freedom of 25 million ppl? Concerning who should be paying to build up North Korea afterwards is irrelevant too, since it's just a question of money, but for starters, South Korea's military budget is around half of North Koreas total GDP. North Korea's production is mostly slavery anyway, especially the mining industry.
There are still a lot of other things to consider... Yeah there are 25 million people or so in North Korea who we wish would have the freedom. We still have to consider that not the entire populace is completely brainwashed either. You just have to imagine how big the actual picture beyond just trying to help these people just because we can and that North Korea doesn't have any real threat to anyone, they are still neighbors to South Korea. South Korea, while better off, is still somewhat developing itself and probably won't be able to handle something like this themselves. To say the US should come and help would be also a little ridiculous, considering that we're in no real good position ourselves. These things unfortunately matter, because money plays such a big role.
That's a lot of funding going into planning. Then you have to imagine what you do with these 25 million people who have lived a completely different lifestyle than the rest of the world? As it is, it's a little more than just going over to help a man bully another man in the streets. There is plenty of more to consider than just that.
Plainly put, its really complicated for any country to decide what they want to do, when they have to worry about their own backyards and get up on their own feet.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Last I checked North Korea has around the third largest army in the world.
"Largest" is a relative term.
Sure you're right that quantity and quality are two independents parameters, but talking about making war against a country in front of China is hazardous, it'll mean at least having Russia and China on your side.
I doubt China and Russia actually give a damn about North Korea atleast not so much that they would risk a war for them.
On April 15 2012 22:06 ninini wrote:What would you do if you saw some guys beat up someone in the streets? It's your duty to help him, even if it means that you get caught up in a fight that you had nothing to do with. Ppl these days are so spineless and selfish. They're only willing to help the weak if they don't have to make sacrifices of their own.
That's a bad example. A war to dethrone a dictator is more like trying to help hostages by killing them each time they are force to fight by their captors.
I bought this book as an ebook last night: finished it last night too. (Slept at like 2 lol) Quite an excellent read though. Left me wanting for more, is a truly sad story.
On April 15 2012 16:14 Otolia wrote: Seeing the number of people who would accept yet another invasion of a foreign country is really frightening me. A whole country being oppressed isn't a sufficient reason to start a war and massacre them.
Words really cannot describe the feelings I have after reading this idiotic statement. First off going to war with NK would not assure the massacre of civilains. In fact I would go as far to say that going to war with NK would see less civilain deaths during combat, than are executed by the regime each year.
And do you truly think that parents of young children in NK wouldnt lay down their lives so that their children could be free? But the thing that sticks out most to me is that you don't think freedom is something that needs to be fought and sacrificed for.
Whish only helps to reinforce my (hopefully incorrect stereotype) that the French are nothing more than spineless hippies who think you can just reason with madmen. Like I said I hope thats incorrect, but your statement seems to indicate otherwise.
On April 16 2012 03:06 Little Rage Box wrote: Words really cannot describe the feelings I have after reading this idiotic statement. First off going to war with NK would not assure the massacre of civilains. In fact I would go as far to say that going to war with NK would see less civilain deaths during combat, than are executed by the regime each year.
I see where you're coming from, although you seem to place little value on non civilian deaths if this where to happen.
I think it is interesting that oppressive regimes and terrible dictators seem like a bigger problem today than it was 200 years ago. Technology, as wonderful as it is, has allowed a small number of individuals to concentrate power in their hands, despite the fact that those same people would be VASTLY outnumbered if a revolution broke out. It doesn't matter how many people want you out of power, even if they have guns, if you have tanks and rockets then they can't do anything about it.
The situation in 1200CE seems slightly different. Not only did the people in power need to stay ahead of the peasants in terms of technology (horses, armor, weapons) but they also needed societal pressure (church? nationalism?) to keep the people in check. The same might not be true today. This deserves to eb thought about a bit more deeply though because I think you could go through a lot fo examples, picking out where the balance of power shifted and understanding why.
On April 15 2012 16:14 Otolia wrote: Seeing the number of people who would accept yet another invasion of a foreign country is really frightening me. A whole country being oppressed isn't a sufficient reason to start a war and massacre them.
Words really cannot describe the feelings I have after reading this idiotic statement. First off going to war with NK would not assure the massacre of civilains. In fact I would go as far to say that going to war with NK would see less civilain deaths during combat, than are executed by the regime each year.
And do you truly think that parents of young children in NK wouldnt lay down their lives so that their children could be free? But the thing that sticks out most to me is that you don't think freedom is something that needs to be fought and sacrificed for.
Whish only helps to reinforce my (hopefully incorrect stereotype) that the French are nothing more than spineless hippies who think you can just reason with madmen. Like I said I hope thats incorrect, but your statement seems to indicate otherwise.
You can't rationalize taking an action that would kill a lot of people simply by saying "they probably don't mind dying." There may be a justification for that action, but it's *not* that the victims probably don't mind.
Also I don't think you understand what "sacrifice" means. Being willing to "sacrifice" the lives of others doesn't make you brave or right, it makes you an internet warrior.
Didn't read the whole thread, but for additional information this "documentary" might be useful for those who are interesting in NK topics. It's footage stuff taken by an American (?) tourist who travels the country with so called "guides" from NK. Really scary how lonely the cities or "hotels" are... Remember, they (the guides, i.e. NK) show only the "good" side of the country. Who knows what stuff might be on the countryside or in other cities than Pjongjang.
On April 16 2012 02:56 Froadac wrote: I bought this book as an ebook last night: finished it last night too. (Slept at like 2 lol) Quite an excellent read though. Left me wanting for more, is a truly sad story.
Get Aquariums of Pyongyang and Tears of My Soul... Soo soo good
As far as I know China is actually more interested in getting rid of north Korea and having a unified Korea under south Korean rule. Source! Source 2 Chinas biggest concern is the likely hundreds of thousand refugees that would stream into China from North Korea in the event of a war.
North Korea accounts for 40% of China's foreign aid budget and 50,000 tonnes of oil exports per month to maintain a buffer state against Japan, South Korea, and the United States, but these three nations are no longer China's enemies.
I am not saying a war against North Korea is a good idea, I would say I am against it if I had to take a stance, but most of the world is for a unification, China included.
On April 16 2012 06:40 Ramong wrote: As far as I know China is actually more interested in getting rid of north Korea and having a unified Korea under south Korean rule. Source! Source 2 Chinas biggest concern is the likely hundreds of thousand refugees that would stream into China from North Korea in the event of a war.
North Korea accounts for 40% of China's foreign aid budget and 50,000 tonnes of oil exports per month to maintain a buffer state against Japan, South Korea, and the United States, but these three nations are no longer China's enemies.
I am not saying a war against North Korea is a good idea, I would say I am against it if I had to take a stance, but most of the world is for a unification, China included.
I could see China wishing to cut ties with NK. Since they are looking to become a world power, it seems like a good idea to remove NK as allies as the rest of the world isn't too fond of them.
It's despicable that these types of camps still exist. I'm honestly surprised that the citizens of NK haven't attempted some sort of resistance to this, but I could just be ignorant of the facts. Gives me some things to research at least.
When I watch things like these I just shake my head and wonder where did we go wrong in the world. Whenever I think of North Korea, I cannot help but get enraged at what the Kim Il Sung did to North Korea and his son after him. It's fucking preposterous. He created his own little kingdom with his own fucking PEOPLE as his toys. My blood boils whenever I just try to think about what happened and what is happening there. The fact that the people are brainwashed into slaves and mindless puppets is fucking ridiculous and I just don't understand how we as fellow human beings can stand for it without taking up arms and spreading that news to the world, not fucking stupid Kony 2012 (granted, he is a man we should capture too). The saddest part of this is that the people worship him like a god... The very person that has taken their free will, mind, and independence... They are worshiping him.. That is what hits me and makes me incredibly emotional for them. Sigh. The world is a fucked up place.
The reason they don't go to war to do something is mainly because it would be an incredibly difficult war to win. There are not many wars you see with one of the engaged countries sitting right next door to the country your fighting. When was the last time you saw america fight Canada or something similar? The world has reached a stage where wars CANNOT be afforded to be fought in countries which support the global economy. We're in a different world from WWII.
And before people think 'NK EZPZ' you are so horribly wrong. First of all check out how far the NK push got in SK in the 50's war before the US eventually helped SK push back up to where it is now. It was not an easy war by a long shot, and tbh the SK then and now are completely different in terms of world affairs.
The true way to disassemble NK is by China removing all assistance from the country, thus causing the country to go into disarray. Unfortunately there would be many deaths with the public starving and stuff, but it would be the only way. If China maybe allowed refugees to live near the border of NK during any unrest, with monetary aid from South Korea and the UN to help assist China in dealing with the exodus, it could work.
However eliminating NK all together would be bad for all the countries involved in the peninsula. What would be better is for NK to remain largely independent, with a large educational boost from both China and South Korea to help the acclimatize to the modern world. Allow NK to develop it's own industries with investment from any country or company willing to invest. Those companies would then take responsibility of developing the area around the factories (similar to what some companies do in Africa, like create decent homes and schools for their work force to use).
China likes that they have a communist neighbor in North Korea. Russia also enjoyed that, and they support North Korea. North Korea has always been known for not being a stand-up nation. Nothing we can do about it because of world politics and countries using Korea to leverage power.
On April 16 2012 06:40 Ramong wrote: As far as I know China is actually more interested in getting rid of north Korea and having a unified Korea under south Korean rule. Source! Source 2 Chinas biggest concern is the likely hundreds of thousand refugees that would stream into China from North Korea in the event of a war.
North Korea accounts for 40% of China's foreign aid budget and 50,000 tonnes of oil exports per month to maintain a buffer state against Japan, South Korea, and the United States, but these three nations are no longer China's enemies.
I am not saying a war against North Korea is a good idea, I would say I am against it if I had to take a stance, but most of the world is for a unification, China included.
I could see China wishing to cut ties with NK. Since they are looking to become a world power, it seems like a good idea to remove NK as allies as the rest of the world isn't too fond of them.
It's despicable that these types of camps still exist. I'm honestly surprised that the citizens of NK haven't attempted some sort of resistance to this, but I could just be ignorant of the facts. Gives me some things to research at least.
China spends that much money to keep NK afloat so they do not collaspe upon themselves. If China didn't want north Korea there, they stop sending money. NK collaspes financially and there is a revolution. China is never going to support unification unless the Communist side leads.
On April 16 2012 08:33 Jisall wrote: China likes that they have a communist neighbor in North Korea. Russia also enjoyed that, and they support North Korea. North Korea has always been known for not being a stand-up nation. Nothing we can do about it because of world politics and countries using Korea to leverage power.
but that is where you are wrong...
China at least DON'T like how North Korea does things. North Korea is a great embarrassment to China and a big money sink.
Also the reason China was for North Korea in the past was as a buffer state against Japan and USA, those countries a no longer real enemies of China so North Korea is obsolete.
As you can see in my post a couple of replies further up, China has officially confirmed they would rather have a North Korea under a South Korean rule than the current North Korea.
But it ain't easy, invading North Korea would cost the death of many peoples life, many times greater than Afghanistan and Irak, and is not a real possibility.
On April 16 2012 08:32 OptimusYale wrote: The reason they don't go to war to do something is mainly because it would be an incredibly difficult war to win. There are not many wars you see with one of the engaged countries sitting right next door to the country your fighting. When was the last time you saw america fight Canada or something similar? The world has reached a stage where wars CANNOT be afforded to be fought in countries which support the global economy. We're in a different world from WWII.
And before people think 'NK EZPZ' you are so horribly wrong. First of all check out how far the NK push got in SK in the 50's war before the US eventually helped SK push back up to where it is now. It was not an easy war by a long shot, and tbh the SK then and now are completely different in terms of world affairs.
The true way to disassemble NK is by China removing all assistance from the country, thus causing the country to go into disarray. Unfortunately there would be many deaths with the public starving and stuff, but it would be the only way. If China maybe allowed refugees to live near the border of NK during any unrest, with monetary aid from South Korea and the UN to help assist China in dealing with the exodus, it could work.
However eliminating NK all together would be bad for all the countries involved in the peninsula. What would be better is for NK to remain largely independent, with a large educational boost from both China and South Korea to help the acclimatize to the modern world. Allow NK to develop it's own industries with investment from any country or company willing to invest. Those companies would then take responsibility of developing the area around the factories (similar to what some companies do in Africa, like create decent homes and schools for their work force to use).
I think you are very wise with this statements. The biggest problem with NK is the hughe military force wich most of the countrys budged get wasted on.
If we are able to convince NK that they dont need so much military becouse no one wants to invade them NK would maybe be able to feed the whole country as well as maybe educate the population becouse they want to develop themselve.
I hope we get a chance here with the new leadership even when i think the military wants to keep itself alive.
I am happy to see South Koreans being so wise :D
Still very sad story RIP all who died in those camps.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because the situation is a lot more complicated than 'lets fight the evil guys'. A quick list:
- Hundreds of artillery pieces aimed at the capitol of South Korea, ready to devastate it like a person held hostage - Three major world powers coming close together in that area of the world - Millions of low skilled refugees that we can't just all get rid of with a gun, the country taking in these refugees would take a big economic hit
Sitting back and hoping the regime collapses into itself is far less taxing on human life as a full scale invasion would be.
200k North Korean soldiers killed, or 20k innocents killed every year? You pick. And what about freedom? The world have the ability to grant the 25 million North Korean ppl the freedom that they never had. It's been obvious for over 20 years that the North Korean regime have been extremely oppressive towards their ppl.
What would you do if you saw some guys beat up someone in the streets? It's your duty to help him, even if it means that you get caught up in a fight that you had nothing to do with. Ppl these days are so spineless and selfish. They're only willing to help the weak if they don't have to make sacrifices of their own.
Diplomatic relations should always be the first focus, but there comes a point when enough is enough, because you have to think about the ongoing suffering. If a parent in the western world abuses their children, then the authorities will takes over custody against their will, so why should the UN accept North Korea? By common moral standards it's a invalid regime, so it's our obligation to take it down.
Mini, I agree with you whole heatedly here. Although the analogy of bully-victim-bystander is a good one, it breaks down when talking about the NK-SK situation. Like previous posters mentioned, Seoul is in the cross-hairs of NKs army with it being so close to the border. Should war break out, 100s of artillery pieces are waiting to rain down death upon them. Who's to know if some of them are not already nuclear armed?
Secondly is their relationship with China. China supports NK economically and militarily by trading with the regime which is why international sanctions have not been effective. Any overthrow of the NK government without Chinas approval has the risk of elevating to war with them as well.
And lastly there are the casualties of war itself. Civilians will no doubt get caught in the crossfire, or even be placed there by the NK government themselves. Remember when Saddam was hiding his weapon caches and military installations near schools and mosques? Do you think the NK government wouldn't stoop to that?
Then there is the problem of what you do with North Koreans should you succeed in their liberation. Think of the millions of refugees there would be who are culturally and economically way behind their southern counterparts. The two countries would have to be merged somehow but in the meantime there would be lawlessness and chaos.
No doubt their situation is a difficult one with no clear solution. So sadly right now the world waits and prays for the NK people.
People are overestimating China's role. Only weeks before Kim Jong Il died, he traveled to China to meet with some chinese politicians, and considering he had been ill for a while, it shows desperation from their part. It would make sense that he would stay at home, and send out a representative instead. This shows that China doesn't really take NK seriously, or atleast aren't very close. China is not a threat to USA. They don't have a strong enough army to take them on, and they don't want to either. NK haven't been "trading" weapons since the Iron Curtain fell. Their army relies on old russian weaponry from the 80's, which even back then was slightly behind the US weaponry. China will never declare war on USA, and USA will never declare war on China, irregardless of the NK situation.
Anyway, as far as Seoul goes. They are or atleast should be prepared for the North Korean artillery. The thing is, North Korea have no fuel and their air-force is a joke, while SK and USA are the two world leaders in air technology. In these days you win wars with air. If war broke out, the ppl of Seoul would just have to be situated at bomb shelters for a few days max, while waiting for the US/SK airforce to take out all of the North Korean rocketry. This would be similar to what happened in Libya. Economic damage is inevitable, but how could anyone value a couple of skyscrapers over the freedom of 25 million ppl? Concerning who should be paying to build up North Korea afterwards is irrelevant too, since it's just a question of money, but for starters, South Korea's military budget is around half of North Koreas total GDP. North Korea's production is mostly slavery anyway, especially the mining industry.
In theory what you say is true but on the other hand, why would the U.S. permanently damage their relationship with China (basically spitting in their face) just to help North Korea? Not gonna happen.
On April 16 2012 08:33 Jisall wrote: China likes that they have a communist neighbor in North Korea. Russia also enjoyed that, and they support North Korea. North Korea has always been known for not being a stand-up nation. Nothing we can do about it because of world politics and countries using Korea to leverage power.
but that is where you are wrong...
China at least DON'T like how North Korea does things. North Korea is a great embarrassment to China and a big money sink.
Also the reason China was for North Korea in the past was as a buffer state against Japan and USA, those countries a no longer real enemies of China so North Korea is obsolete.
As you can see in my post a couple of replies further up, China has officially confirmed they would rather have a North Korea under a South Korean rule than the current North Korea.
But it ain't easy, invading North Korea would cost the death of many peoples life, many times greater than Afghanistan and Irak, and is not a real possibility.
Both Japan and USA have on going trade disputes with China. Japan also have territorial disputes with China. I wouldn't call them enemies but they are not exactly on the each other's friend list. They are probably more frinemies if anything...
China is as two face as they come. They can say whatever they want to not appear too sympathetic to NK but the political reality is that they won't let go of NK without some major concessions or events that force their hand.
Imagine a Chinese president losing control of NK, he and his faction will be rounded up and booted out the politburo lol.
They probably don't mind SK leading Korea but it would only happen on their terms.
On April 16 2012 09:31 Nancial wrote: Why the hell does someone think Russia cares about NK ? :D Afaik that's ignorant.
In the korean war Russia and China supported NK. I'm not sure if they still care about it, however it is a friendly state to them, so they like to keep it that way.
On April 16 2012 08:33 Jisall wrote: China likes that they have a communist neighbor in North Korea. Russia also enjoyed that, and they support North Korea. North Korea has always been known for not being a stand-up nation. Nothing we can do about it because of world politics and countries using Korea to leverage power.
but that is where you are wrong...
China at least DON'T like how North Korea does things. North Korea is a great embarrassment to China and a big money sink.
Also the reason China was for North Korea in the past was as a buffer state against Japan and USA, those countries a no longer real enemies of China so North Korea is obsolete.
As you can see in my post a couple of replies further up, China has officially confirmed they would rather have a North Korea under a South Korean rule than the current North Korea.
But it ain't easy, invading North Korea would cost the death of many peoples life, many times greater than Afghanistan and Irak, and is not a real possibility.
BBC is a good source, but China can also say one thing publicly and do the opposite in private. I'm not sure china cares about human rights issues that arise. Look at events in Tibet.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because there is no oil there
But in all seriousness, at some point the world is going to have to "find oil" in NoKor. This stuff is terrible. Such waste of society and life.
On April 16 2012 03:55 Anytus wrote: I think it is interesting that oppressive regimes and terrible dictators seem like a bigger problem today than it was 200 years ago. Technology, as wonderful as it is, has allowed a small number of individuals to concentrate power in their hands, despite the fact that those same people would be VASTLY outnumbered if a revolution broke out. It doesn't matter how many people want you out of power, even if they have guns, if you have tanks and rockets then they can't do anything about it.
The situation in 1200CE seems slightly different. Not only did the people in power need to stay ahead of the peasants in terms of technology (horses, armor, weapons) but they also needed societal pressure (church? nationalism?) to keep the people in check. The same might not be true today. This deserves to eb thought about a bit more deeply though because I think you could go through a lot fo examples, picking out where the balance of power shifted and understanding why.
Nope, the same things that happen today still happen in Africa and used to happen not so long ago in Latin America. And this arguably still happens in the Middle East. The oppressive regimes are just backed up by foreign aid who gives them funds to buy weapons which prevent revolutions.
The opposite happens as well. Foreign nations don't like what a perfectly non-tyrannical government is doing (like subsidizing oil), so they clandestinely arm a rebel group with weapons. The rebel group becomes a real threat, and the government is forced to resort to tyranny to fight the rebels. I know it sounds cliche, but it's cliche for a reason: it's true and it's happened a lot.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because there is no oil there
But in all seriousness, at some point the world is going to have to "find oil" in NoKor. This stuff is terrible. Such waste of society and life.
World leaders simply dont give a fuck...they have their own party, this is just painful reality that we have to live with.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
One of the major issues is that the people there are so brainwashed by their government, that any type of invasion or anything would result in a sort of bloodbath since the citizens would turn on the opposing army.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because there is no oil there
But in all seriousness, at some point the world is going to have to "find oil" in NoKor. This stuff is terrible. Such waste of society and life.
Your post got me thinking and I can't find a way for NK to simply stop destroying their own population:
..."One does not simply walk into Mordor."...
In pretty much every scenario I can think off NK just ends up blackmailing China or some other country in the range of its nuclear warheads for help or food, even if a revolution came from within. Hell, even if there was a 9.9 earthquake right in the middle of NK. Even if you had authorization from China / Russia to attack NK you would need to know exactly where every warhead is located, had a plan to take it out and accept the fact that Seoul would become a graveyard or a crater. Not to mention you still have a few million soldiers to go through.
Maybe if China develops / Steals some EMP weapons from the US and those weapons could be guaranteed to fry the nuke's systems (along with every other electronic / power line in NK) it might be possible to simply starve the country into submission. Seoul still becomes a crater though China would need a VERY good reason to do this, aside from the ridiculous implications / technical details of such an attack.
Meanwhile its best to just pretend South Korea is an island (unless you are on a ship) and business as usual.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because the situation is a lot more complicated than 'lets fight the evil guys'. A quick list:
- Hundreds of artillery pieces aimed at the capitol of South Korea, ready to devastate it like a person held hostage - Three major world powers coming close together in that area of the world - Millions of low skilled refugees that we can't just all get rid of with a gun, the country taking in these refugees would take a big economic hit
Sitting back and hoping the regime collapses into itself is far less taxing on human life as a full scale invasion would be.
200k North Korean soldiers killed, or 20k innocents killed every year? You pick. And what about freedom? The world have the ability to grant the 25 million North Korean ppl the freedom that they never had. It's been obvious for over 20 years that the North Korean regime have been extremely oppressive towards their ppl.
What would you do if you saw some guys beat up someone in the streets? It's your duty to help him, even if it means that you get caught up in a fight that you had nothing to do with. Ppl these days are so spineless and selfish. They're only willing to help the weak if they don't have to make sacrifices of their own.
Diplomatic relations should always be the first focus, but there comes a point when enough is enough, because you have to think about the ongoing suffering. If a parent in the western world abuses their children, then the authorities will takes over custody against their will, so why should the UN accept North Korea? By common moral standards it's a invalid regime, so it's our obligation to take it down.
Mini, I agree with you whole heatedly here. Although the analogy of bully-victim-bystander is a good one, it breaks down when talking about the NK-SK situation. Like previous posters mentioned, Seoul is in the cross-hairs of NKs army with it being so close to the border. Should war break out, 100s of artillery pieces are waiting to rain down death upon them. Who's to know if some of them are not already nuclear armed?
Secondly is their relationship with China. China supports NK economically and militarily by trading with the regime which is why international sanctions have not been effective. Any overthrow of the NK government without Chinas approval has the risk of elevating to war with them as well.
And lastly there are the casualties of war itself. Civilians will no doubt get caught in the crossfire, or even be placed there by the NK government themselves. Remember when Saddam was hiding his weapon caches and military installations near schools and mosques? Do you think the NK government wouldn't stoop to that?
Then there is the problem of what you do with North Koreans should you succeed in their liberation. Think of the millions of refugees there would be who are culturally and economically way behind their southern counterparts. The two countries would have to be merged somehow but in the meantime there would be lawlessness and chaos.
No doubt their situation is a difficult one with no clear solution. So sadly right now the world waits and prays for the NK people.
Anyway, as far as Seoul goes. They are or atleast should be prepared for the North Korean artillery. The thing is, North Korea have no fuel and their air-force is a joke, while SK and USA are the two world leaders in air technology. In these days you win wars with air. If war broke out, the ppl of Seoul would just have to be situated at bomb shelters for a few days max, while waiting for the US/SK airforce to take out all of the North Korean rocketry. This would be similar to what happened in Libya. Economic damage is inevitable, but how could anyone value a couple of skyscrapers over the freedom of 25 million ppl?
Since you're so eager, you'll be trading your life for the 25 millions when the time comes? It is easy for you to say since you're not the one who is affected directly, like I said, wait till you live at Seoul with your family then say that.
Just a few Skyscrapers? Your statement is pissing on the World Trade Center.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Last I checked North Korea has around the third largest army in the world.
Of what untrained morons who have no weapons?
That sounds intense up until they realize we have bombs that can level their entire army.
Communism, Stalinism, Leninism, Socialism, Statism.....ain't it grand! As for those wishing more bloodshed upon the people and the land, until the people want it themselves you cannot give it to them. People must want freedom for themselves. If they do not want it, then no amount of killing, destroying, or bribing will change anything. They must do it for themselves, must want it for themselves.
If the people want violence, there cannot be peace. If they want tyranny, there cannot be liberty. We won our Revolution not because of the French. We won because we wanted liberty more than anything. What is life without liberty? What consequences does war have upon the initiating country? You think liberty can survive long in a country constantly at war? You want what has never existed. War is not humanitarian. Can never be. Only the foolish and observers say such things.
As sad as their plight is, until they are willing to live the motto Live Free or Die in sufficient numbers, nothing can save them. You know why the Baltic States won their separation from the Kremlin? It's not because of the USA, or West Germany, or the UK. It's because they wanted it for themselves. Fought, died, and freed themselves.
As far as this persons account...I still find Gulag Archipaeligo to be the best account of such circumstances.
I've been reading up a lot on the situation with the prison camps in North Korea, lately. And it really is some of the most disgusting stuff i've ever come across. I've managed to find several prison camps via google maps too, and even just from that perspective you can get an ever so slight sense of what it would be like living there.
What really disturbs me about it, though, is that these conditions are being forced upon people. It's not like it's due to a natural disaster or what not, there are actual human beings (if you could call them that) forcing these morbid living conditions upon thousands of others.
On April 16 2012 17:48 marttorn wrote: I've been reading up a lot on the situation with the prison camps in North Korea, lately. And it really is some of the most disgusting stuff i've ever come across. I've managed to find several prison camps via google maps too, and even just from that perspective you can get an ever so slight sense of what it would be like living there.
What really disturbs me about it, though, is that these conditions are being forced upon people. It's not like it's due to a natural disaster or what not, there are actual human beings (if you could call them that) forcing these morbid living conditions upon thousands of others.
The Stanford prison experiment demonstrates how easy it is to create guards willing to abuse prisoners, even if you don't indoctrinate them and make them fear for the lives of their loved ones. It is estimated that it took Eichmann one month to go from feeling horror and revulsion at what he saw taking place in the death camps to complete indifference.
We can make monsters out of people easily. The next great challenge will be to learn to make people out of monsters.
On April 16 2012 03:55 Anytus wrote: I think it is interesting that oppressive regimes and terrible dictators seem like a bigger problem today than it was 200 years ago. Technology, as wonderful as it is, has allowed a small number of individuals to concentrate power in their hands, despite the fact that those same people would be VASTLY outnumbered if a revolution broke out. It doesn't matter how many people want you out of power, even if they have guns, if you have tanks and rockets then they can't do anything about it.
The situation in 1200CE seems slightly different. Not only did the people in power need to stay ahead of the peasants in terms of technology (horses, armor, weapons) but they also needed societal pressure (church? nationalism?) to keep the people in check. The same might not be true today. This deserves to eb thought about a bit more deeply though because I think you could go through a lot fo examples, picking out where the balance of power shifted and understanding why.
200 years ago almost all regimes were oppressive and dictatorial. Empires were spreading across the globe and the revolutions in France and the USA made the old regimes scared. A scared regime is a dangerous one to be ruled by.
On April 16 2012 08:33 Jisall wrote: China likes that they have a communist neighbor in North Korea. Russia also enjoyed that, and they support North Korea. North Korea has always been known for not being a stand-up nation. Nothing we can do about it because of world politics and countries using Korea to leverage power.
but that is where you are wrong...
China at least DON'T like how North Korea does things. North Korea is a great embarrassment to China and a big money sink.
Also the reason China was for North Korea in the past was as a buffer state against Japan and USA, those countries a no longer real enemies of China so North Korea is obsolete.
As you can see in my post a couple of replies further up, China has officially confirmed they would rather have a North Korea under a South Korean rule than the current North Korea.
But it ain't easy, invading North Korea would cost the death of many peoples life, many times greater than Afghanistan and Irak, and is not a real possibility.
BBC is a good source, but China can also say one thing publicly and do the opposite in private. I'm not sure china cares about human rights issues that arise. Look at events in Tibet.
If you read my source you would see that it wasn't only a public statement but also classified government files leaked by wikileaks that shows Chinas stance towards NK.
China gains NOTHING from maintaining NK, they did once but not any more.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because there is no oil there
But in all seriousness, at some point the world is going to have to "find oil" in NoKor. This stuff is terrible. Such waste of society and life.
World leaders simply dont give a fuck...they have their own party, this is just painful reality that we have to live with.
That is simply not true.. Many countries including USA, UK, China and SK cares and spends many resources on NK SourceSource2
Just because USA haven't invaded NK yet doesn't mean they don't give a fuck. As many other in this thread have pointed out, invading NK is not a solid solution, as it would cost to many lives. The NK army are not to be taken lightly.
This is not an easy subject and there is no easy solution. I feel for the North Koreans that live in hell, but we can't just nuke Kim Jong-un from orbit and hope for the best.
Foreign relations, political pressure and incentives are the best way
On April 16 2012 06:40 Ramong wrote: As far as I know China is actually more interested in getting rid of north Korea and having a unified Korea under south Korean rule. Source! Source 2 Chinas biggest concern is the likely hundreds of thousand refugees that would stream into China from North Korea in the event of a war.
North Korea accounts for 40% of China's foreign aid budget and 50,000 tonnes of oil exports per month to maintain a buffer state against Japan, South Korea, and the United States, but these three nations are no longer China's enemies.
I am not saying a war against North Korea is a good idea, I would say I am against it if I had to take a stance, but most of the world is for a unification, China included.
I could see China wishing to cut ties with NK. Since they are looking to become a world power, it seems like a good idea to remove NK as allies as the rest of the world isn't too fond of them.
It's despicable that these types of camps still exist. I'm honestly surprised that the citizens of NK haven't attempted some sort of resistance to this, but I could just be ignorant of the facts. Gives me some things to research at least.
The problem is that they can't resist. Stalinistic dictatorships like this are very stable, because they control with fear. If they suspect that you're up to no good, you get punished, and they teach you to expose those who talk bad about the regime, by rewarding those who support the government. In this specific case, the regime have a extraordinary stability, because of how the state controls everything. China was never as restricting as North Korea is, so with North Korea you have a country where most ppl doesn't have a clue about what the rest of the world looks like.
On April 16 2012 08:32 OptimusYale wrote: And before people think 'NK EZPZ' you are so horribly wrong. First of all check out how far the NK push got in SK in the 50's war before the US eventually helped SK push back up to where it is now. It was not an easy war by a long shot, and tbh the SK then and now are completely different in terms of world affairs.
The true way to disassemble NK is by China removing all assistance from the country, thus causing the country to go into disarray. Unfortunately there would be many deaths with the public starving and stuff, but it would be the only way. If China maybe allowed refugees to live near the border of NK during any unrest, with monetary aid from South Korea and the UN to help assist China in dealing with the exodus, it could work.
However eliminating NK all together would be bad for all the countries involved in the peninsula. What would be better is for NK to remain largely independent, with a large educational boost from both China and South Korea to help the acclimatize to the modern world. Allow NK to develop it's own industries with investment from any country or company willing to invest. Those companies would then take responsibility of developing the area around the factories (similar to what some companies do in Africa, like create decent homes and schools for their work force to use).
Come on. In the 50's, South Korea was a very poor agricultural country. Now it's one of the strongest world economies with the 2nd most advanced army in the world. Plus, in the 50's, North Korea was Stalin's puppet state. They never would have gotten that far if they hadn't been armed with their weapons and trained by russian WW2 veterans.
I totally agree with you on China though. If we're going for a gradual change, then it is key that China officially turns their back on North Korea. What they're doing now, by sending back refugees against their will is not helping North Korea at all.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because the situation is a lot more complicated than 'lets fight the evil guys'. A quick list:
- Hundreds of artillery pieces aimed at the capitol of South Korea, ready to devastate it like a person held hostage - Three major world powers coming close together in that area of the world - Millions of low skilled refugees that we can't just all get rid of with a gun, the country taking in these refugees would take a big economic hit
Sitting back and hoping the regime collapses into itself is far less taxing on human life as a full scale invasion would be.
200k North Korean soldiers killed, or 20k innocents killed every year? You pick. And what about freedom? The world have the ability to grant the 25 million North Korean ppl the freedom that they never had. It's been obvious for over 20 years that the North Korean regime have been extremely oppressive towards their ppl.
What would you do if you saw some guys beat up someone in the streets? It's your duty to help him, even if it means that you get caught up in a fight that you had nothing to do with. Ppl these days are so spineless and selfish. They're only willing to help the weak if they don't have to make sacrifices of their own.
Diplomatic relations should always be the first focus, but there comes a point when enough is enough, because you have to think about the ongoing suffering. If a parent in the western world abuses their children, then the authorities will takes over custody against their will, so why should the UN accept North Korea? By common moral standards it's a invalid regime, so it's our obligation to take it down.
Mini, I agree with you whole heatedly here. Although the analogy of bully-victim-bystander is a good one, it breaks down when talking about the NK-SK situation. Like previous posters mentioned, Seoul is in the cross-hairs of NKs army with it being so close to the border. Should war break out, 100s of artillery pieces are waiting to rain down death upon them. Who's to know if some of them are not already nuclear armed?
Secondly is their relationship with China. China supports NK economically and militarily by trading with the regime which is why international sanctions have not been effective. Any overthrow of the NK government without Chinas approval has the risk of elevating to war with them as well.
And lastly there are the casualties of war itself. Civilians will no doubt get caught in the crossfire, or even be placed there by the NK government themselves. Remember when Saddam was hiding his weapon caches and military installations near schools and mosques? Do you think the NK government wouldn't stoop to that?
Then there is the problem of what you do with North Koreans should you succeed in their liberation. Think of the millions of refugees there would be who are culturally and economically way behind their southern counterparts. The two countries would have to be merged somehow but in the meantime there would be lawlessness and chaos.
No doubt their situation is a difficult one with no clear solution. So sadly right now the world waits and prays for the NK people.
Anyway, as far as Seoul goes. They are or atleast should be prepared for the North Korean artillery. The thing is, North Korea have no fuel and their air-force is a joke, while SK and USA are the two world leaders in air technology. In these days you win wars with air. If war broke out, the ppl of Seoul would just have to be situated at bomb shelters for a few days max, while waiting for the US/SK airforce to take out all of the North Korean rocketry. This would be similar to what happened in Libya. Economic damage is inevitable, but how could anyone value a couple of skyscrapers over the freedom of 25 million ppl?
Since you're so eager, you'll be trading your life for the 25 millions when the time comes? It is easy for you to say since you're not the one who is affected directly, like I said, wait till you live at Seoul with your family then say that.
Just a few Skyscrapers? Your statement is pissing on the World Trade Center.
You aren't allowed to mention the word skyscraper? Yes, it's easy for me to say what needs to be done, but atleast I'm trying to accomplish something by discussing solutions. The day that North Korea falls, the north korean ppl will ask us all why we didn't help them and it will be known as the country where the world failed. We have experienced Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, but we still didn't do anything about North Korea.
On April 16 2012 17:48 marttorn wrote: I've been reading up a lot on the situation with the prison camps in North Korea, lately. And it really is some of the most disgusting stuff i've ever come across. I've managed to find several prison camps via google maps too, and even just from that perspective you can get an ever so slight sense of what it would be like living there.
What really disturbs me about it, though, is that these conditions are being forced upon people. It's not like it's due to a natural disaster or what not, there are actual human beings (if you could call them that) forcing these morbid living conditions upon thousands of others.
The Stanford prison experiment demonstrates how easy it is to create guards willing to abuse prisoners, even if you don't indoctrinate them and make them fear for the lives of their loved ones. It is estimated that it took Eichmann one month to go from feeling horror and revulsion at what he saw taking place in the death camps to complete indifference.
We can make monsters out of people easily. The next great challenge will be to learn to make people out of monsters.
The funny thing about the Stanford experiment is that it shows that going back and forth is equally easy. It's all about the situation; in the right situation, people do bad things. In other situations, people will stop doing bad things.
The next great challenge will be to make people resistent to becoming monsters in the first place. To figure out how to raise a person who has a higher tolerance against peer pressure and those situations that turn us into bad people.
I heard that the lucky people that actually manage to escape, they have to spend like quite a bit of time in South Korean classes that are organized by the government so that they can actually learn how the real world works.
On April 16 2012 17:48 marttorn wrote: I've been reading up a lot on the situation with the prison camps in North Korea, lately. And it really is some of the most disgusting stuff i've ever come across. I've managed to find several prison camps via google maps too, and even just from that perspective you can get an ever so slight sense of what it would be like living there.
What really disturbs me about it, though, is that these conditions are being forced upon people. It's not like it's due to a natural disaster or what not, there are actual human beings (if you could call them that) forcing these morbid living conditions upon thousands of others.
The Stanford prison experiment demonstrates how easy it is to create guards willing to abuse prisoners, even if you don't indoctrinate them and make them fear for the lives of their loved ones. It is estimated that it took Eichmann one month to go from feeling horror and revulsion at what he saw taking place in the death camps to complete indifference.
We can make monsters out of people easily. The next great challenge will be to learn to make people out of monsters.
The funny thing about the Stanford experiment is that it shows that going back and forth is equally easy. It's all about the situation; in the right situation, people do bad things. In other situations, people will stop doing bad things.
The next great challenge will be to make people resistent to becoming monsters in the first place. To figure out how to raise a person who has a higher tolerance against peer pressure and those situations that turn us into bad people.
It's called an ardent belief in the NAP (Non-Aggression Principle), or in a more common tongue the Golden Rule. It's not that people need to 'evolve' or change their behavior, but it starts with the rearing of your children and what you teach them. It starts with you. The only person you can ever change in the world and make a difference is yourself. Life & Liberty. Those are the most precious things in this world, for which a great many good men have given their lives to defend.
Everyone has it in themselves, it just takes courage, conviction, and vigilance. Gotta stop worrying about the world and worry about the only things you can really change. Yourself and your family. Let yourselves be the example for others to emulate, and like they say "Build it and they will come". There's a reason a large percentage of people flocked to America to enjoy liberty, and sure, we weren't perfect, and human beings can never be, but we tried, and we can improve and reach for that ideal goal. That's all we can do.
On April 16 2012 02:56 Froadac wrote: I bought this book as an ebook last night: finished it last night too. (Slept at like 2 lol) Quite an excellent read though. Left me wanting for more, is a truly sad story.
Get Aquariums of Pyongyang and Tears of My Soul... Soo soo good
Read aquariums, can't seem to find tears of my soul at library, and dont' want to buy it.
On April 15 2012 14:50 Antimatterz wrote: Seriously, why the fuck doesn't the rest of the world (everyone not N.K) do something about this? We are sitting here, watching a country that we could probably take over, just torture the shit out of its people and threaten world peace.
Because there is no oil there
No the real reason is Russia and China. They don't want the US to mobilize any closer to their borders with their Carriers and Tanks. And the US doesn't feel like jumping in and risking a confrontation. The fate of NK lies with the Chinese.
EPT
