EPTAge Hierarchy Power in Asia is too much ? - Page 3
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
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spkim1
Canada286 Posts
On April 10 2012 10:00 MethodSC wrote: Why would you want to be part of a society where the use of force is justified just because of age? Makes absolutely no sense. I guess it's something to do with other advantages within the culture that I have not mentionned in this post. Koreans are intense people who like to have fun in a very explosive way, but also work in a fired-up fashion. Once you get used to this dynamism, you learn to get swirled away into an intense and entertaining society and end-up asking for more. Although if you screw up, you have a hard time for a while, it's definitely fun being around with them. | ||
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Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
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decerto
244 Posts
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xOchievax
United States69 Posts
With that being said, I am always happy to listen to the thoughts and worldviews of old people. Even if their ideas dont make sense to me, I try to give them an opportunity to fully express themselves before asking critical questions. If an elderly person is incapable of defending and explaining their beliefs in a calm, non-hostile manner, they probably are not as wise as some Asian cultures would portray them as anyways. Ultimately I treat older people with more or less the same respect as anyone else. Perhaps I would give elders more of a chance to substantiate views. After living for such a long time the elderly have had more of a chance to formulate their thoughts and opinions on the world. That, in my opinion, is the only true value which an age based respect system might have. Petty insults and arrogance should be just as unacceptable for people of any age. Yet I admit there is something extremely admirable about some elders. I am far more impressed by those who respect their youngers than those who respect their elders. The ability to simultaneously respect a younger generation's culture and communitate long-held wisdoms (and defend them without hostility) is what truly makes some elders worthy of my respect. Keep in mind that this kind of respect must be earned. I do not go around assuming that every elder I meet is worthy of my absolute respect. In fact it seems that elders who meet the above criteria are in the minority. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
What they don't really realize, though, is that much of Asian culture is about ingrained respect. Not true respect, in that people are empathetic and genuinely want to get along with everyone else. It's that they've been trained to bow their head, act polite, and to "know their role" in society, so to speak. People older than you are above you, people with a higher company position are above you, etc. which results in a lot of two-faced nature. Not to say that the Western attitudes are better. They're different, and extremely contrasting, and if I had to generalize, Western upbringing is much better for the individual, and Asian upbringing is better for the community. | ||
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Dontkillme
Korea (South)806 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On April 10 2012 11:32 WolfintheSheep wrote: This is one of the reason why people talking about "Korean respect" in terms of SC2 bothers me. Most of them try to put the Korean culture on some kind of pedestal, and pretend that it's some gold standard that everyone should aspire to. What they don't really realize, though, is that much of Asian culture is about ingrained respect. Not true respect, in that people are empathetic and genuinely want to get along with everyone else. It's that they've been trained to bow their head, act polite, and to "know their role" in society, so to speak. People older than you are above you, people with a higher company position are above you, etc. which results in a lot of two-faced nature. Not to say that the Western attitudes are better. They're different, and extremely contrasting, and if I had to generalize, Western upbringing is much better for the individual, and Asian upbringing is better for the community. Idk man, as a Chinese, our history is not anything at all like the Korean one. In China, it is "everyone for themselves". They don't care how old you are, people are going to treat you like shit. Its only the Korean culture and maybe the Japanese one. | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
there are just too many people who dont deserve it, nor earned it | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
i assume the guy was getting slapped because of the way he behaved while other people, especially older folks were present. and some behavior is not acceptable, like acting stupid while drunk. in my view, respect is given but its maintenance must be earned. young should respect the old unless the old acts in away to neglect that respect, such as taking advantage of the fact that old should hold power and abusing it. and one thing, this hierarchy is strong in the military and you know about koreans and military. that still lives on in the background of adult life. misbehaving in front of those you should behave, will get you in trouble. acting out in front of elders/older/those-who-you-should-behave-in-front-of is a big no no. i think this is old way of thinking and with the newer generation, its changing, its getting toned down. for example, i grew up with confucius/corporate punishment in school, women and children eating in separate tables as men, one is now illegal and the other, except for deep country side, people dont eat at separate tables anymore. this authority is sometimes taken far but remember that the fault lies in the individual, not the culture. i will not respect those who abuse their "hyung/oppa" status no more and i will call it out in front of their face. this mentality is what america has taught me. | ||
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KillerDucky
United States498 Posts
http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2011/06/confucianism-and-korea-part-vi-korean.html Abuse of Hierarchical Position Confucianism is commonly described as emphasizing hierarchy. That is a fair description in a sense because in almost every Confucian relation, there is a clear order of who comes first, and who comes second -- parents over children, ruler over subjects, husband over wife, older over younger. But the Korean so far has avoided the term "hierarchical," and instead opted for the term "relational." That choice was made because the Korean believed the term "hierarchical" missed an important element in Confucian relations -- that each person in a relationship, whether superior or inferior, has a certain duty corresponding to his/her status in the relationship. In, the highest ideal of Confucianism, is a natural result when everyone acts on his duty. Often, this element is ignored in contemporary Korea. Instead, what ends up happening is a naked power play in the guise of Confucianism. Political leaders demand respect while not having done much to inspire such respect from the people. Bosses demand deference without doing much to inspire the deference from their employees. Older Koreans yell at younger Koreans rather than persuade. Facing this dynamic, instead of naturally obeying their superiors, Koreans often do so with bitten lips and gritted teeth. More Confucianism will help this situation. Under the more orthodox view of Confucianism, such leaders and bosses will soon lose the heaven's mandate to lead, because they have not fulfilled their own duties. Once the heaven's mandate is lost, they no longer deserve to be in that position. In fact, this is the core message that enabled the Joseon Dynasty, which replaced Goryeo Dynasty that was supposed to have lost the heaven's mandate. Likewise, orthodox Confucianism envisions a dynamic relationship within a hierarchy. Hierarchy is necessary; there is no group that can properly function without a leader who can take decisive actions. Focusing on the duties of the leaders of the hierarchy, as Confucianism calls for, will make the various hierarchies in Korea run smoother. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6259 Posts
However, think about it the other way - this respect your elders helped keep society in check. The OP cites a story where the senior was disciplining someone and that was for the junior's own good. Better the discipline than someone behaving badly. Also respect doesn't mean you let people trample all over you - alot of people have the wrong mindset about it. If someone disrepects you, let them know about it - if they persist, walk away. | ||
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S2Glow
Singapore1042 Posts
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OpticalShot
Canada6330 Posts
I don't think the age hierarchy system is the core of the problem. Sure, the hierarchy may have contributed various factors to the incident you witnessed, but it's more of a case of people drinking when they shouldn't in amounts they shouldn't with people they shouldn't and in a place they shouldn't. I'd even go out on a limb and say the core of the problem is the widely accepted alcohol consumption in culture and even law - there was an infamous case recently in Korea (within last 2 years I think?) where a child molester/rapist was handed down a relatively minor sentence with one of the reasons being that he was deemed to be drunk during the rape. Don't quote me on that, I didn't do an extensive study of the case or anything, but that's what I remember from the Korean news at the time. | ||
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Rfaulker
United States53 Posts
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HaruRH
Singapore2780 Posts
On April 10 2012 12:35 S2Glow wrote: this is a dumb rules that is being created just like other country with their community rules.. i heard of korean senior and junior position but in my country is all about whether you know how to fight or not. :D Please don't shame our country in a public forum. In our country, it still do work like that. Elders in the family will be given respect, albeit more westernised. However, I would prefer such a system over one which gives total freedom. There are also many examples of people misusing their freedom, such as moving out from your house, abandoning your parents once you've reached 18 years of age. With these hierarchy system, there comes natural respect for your parents, giving them some form of power over you. | ||
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ScouraE
Canada28 Posts
I'm chinese and I believe that elders should be treated with respect, under the condition that they don't treat you like shit. I'm in a family where my parents think that they are better than me in everything (no exaggeration), even English (lol, they can't speak much english at all). And whenever something in the house went wrong, they would always blame me, even if it had nothing to do with me at all, because they think that i lack knowledge and experience and somehow some way is the source of all the problems in the house. So when i talk back to them and get mad in that situation, I don't really feel i did something that is completely againest my chinese ancestry, since my parents didn't even think rationally and simply abused their power to blame me. And ya in chinese culture it's "always show absolute respect to elders" period, so i guess living in canada really let me opened my eyes to how people should logically be treated. (Helariously enough this change in culture view is depicted as really evil, and to quote my parents and relatives "ruined young kids who went to the west, to learn to say no to parents.") | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
http://www.chinasmack.com/2012/videos/chinese-teenagers-beat-up-elderly-at-jiangsu-nursing-home.html | ||
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TheKwas
Iceland372 Posts
In the case of this story, I imagine that everyone was in a similar age group, but the seniors were a few years older and the juniors still had to show respect to their hyeong. It's almost like a frat, except Koreans aren't frat-house douchebags. Of course, if you become close friends with a senior or a junior, you can drop the honourifics and speak your mind more freely around them as an equal. However, upon the first meeting, you must be respectful of your elders and in return the seniors are expected to take care of their juniors (which often includes paying for everything during the night). There is a lot of abuse with these sorts of relationships, perhaps most commonly older oppas (older brother relationship to a girl) will try to pull rank to make younger female friends hang out with them or attend association meetings the females would rather skip, but on the whole these relationships are not abusive at all and instead just clarify how you should act in social settings. | ||
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