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So wherever you go there is the saying "respect the elder" and I mostly agree with it.
Seeing how I am Korean by blood but not by nationality, I have had a good taste of both western and asian cultures (although these strongly vary from country to country).
One of the more interesting differences is the power and authority you gain when you are older than the others in asia.
This has many positive advantages but I also hear and see so many abuses of power and injustice that I am beginning to doubt about this notion of age superiority and power.
I had always believed that belonging to an ethnic group that is strongly collectivist, the hierarchy of age was a good and only good thing. I tend to respect my seniors and look after my juniors, and the reason I do this is because both seniors and juniors treat me well and care after me if I do this. As a senior to some, I feel responsible in helping them and teaching them whenever they have troubles in life, and I also seek support from my seniors when I have difficult times. This is a great, caring relationship.
That was until I experienced a bizzare happening.
One day I was drinking with Korean people and this guy the same age as me got very drunk and attacked me and cursed at me for no apparent reason (barely knew him, and we were on good terms generally, greeting each other, and that day too I only greeted him, not having had a chance to speak to him again later that night). Seniors dragged him out and after a while a junior came to fetch me out. As I walked outside I saw the guy, and other guys my age getting slapped across the face by a senior. When I asked the guy (my age) whether he was not too drunk and ok, another senior dragged me out and told me to "keep my head straight because this is no place for jokes". I obviously complied and apologised, saying I understood (actually, in my head I was confused which part I was supposed to apologise for, and how straighter I can get my head).
Anyway, suddenly this whole thing seemed very hostile to me, and I felt I became some kind of member in a gang or mafia, with underlings getting beat up by elders with never a chance to fight back. I felt this was outright bullying and power abuse.
One part of me says I should understand this because this is Korean culture, but another part tells me something is wrong. Of course, I will never attempt to stop the seniors, but I'm wondering whether I should start seeing other people because this society starts freaking me out.
What are your thoughts on this ? What is right and wrong, and how should people act facing this kind of situation ?
EDIT: I want to clarify some points: when I refer to "seniors" in this context, I'm referring to people who are in the same social circle as you (enterprise, university, high-school, club, etc.), but have a higher social status primarily because they 1. are older in age, and 2. have joined the social circle before you have, and are therefore your 'teachers' in that field. Juniors are the opposite younger late-comers (lower-ranking position, lower-year at university, etc). In Korean we call them Seon-Bae (선배)(Seniors) and Hu-Bae (후배)(Juniors). The concept is that as a senior you take care of your confused and ignorant juniors, and you obey and listen to your experienced seniors - Alas, not always this wonderful relationship case as you can see.
Also, I want to clarify that parent-child relationship is outside of the scope of this discussion, as it is a significantly different relationship from senior-junior relationship for most people. Thanks in advance for your considerations and cooperation. If you REALLY want to discuss parent-child relationship then you may start another discussion separately.
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I think respect must be earned and this goes for everyone. I dont have good information about the korean culture but seriously if someone doesnt act like an adult why would you treat that person so?
Of cause there should ALWAYS be a basic amount of respect to each person but every other bit must be earned, be it through actions in the past (this is the part where being older might come in handy because you had more time) or through actions in the present.
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Power earned without effort is always wrong, no matter who it belongs to.
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With power someone is always bound to abuse it. It is important to respect your elders but sometimes they also commit mistakes and in certain situations they abuse the power that they are given. Things like that just make you more aware of the things around you and allow you to recognize when something is wrong or right.
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Gotta agree with TotalNightmare. There are just too many people older than me who don't deserve any special treatment or respect for me to take the whole "Respect your elders" thing seriously.
I think it stems from the Enlightenment. The one thing philosophers like John Locke and Francis Bacon all had in common was that they strongly believed in questioning things. Since "Respect your elders" is such an old and powerful tradition, it only makes sense that it'd be one of the first to be questioned.
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I'm not entirely sure what happened in your situation. It was hard to follow.
But, it's not "superiority," it's respect. And you should always respect your elders. They've been around for longer than we have (obviously). That being said, however, 1 Timothy 4:12 says, "Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example..."
People all over the world with all kinds of power will and have been abusing that power for, almost, ever. Where this is power, there is someone abusing it. That doesn't mean you charge in to work tomorrow and headbutt your boss because he deserves it. That also doesn't mean you start disrespecting your elders because they don't deserve your respect. This would not only make them wrong, but you as well.
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This is more out of curiosity, but what happens if you defy the age hierarchy? The hierarchy is based on traditions and doesn't have legal foundations, does it? Practically, what would happen if you, say, don't use respectful language or talk back to a senior?
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I don't think there is a universal right and wrong.
Wall of text inc.
On April 10 2012 08:32 SeungHwan wrote:
With power someone is always bound to abuse it. It is important to respect your elders but sometimes they also commit mistakes and in certain situations they abuse the power that they are given. Things like that just make you more aware of the things around you and allow you to recognize when something is wrong or right.
There is power implicit in everything we do. Even if we post in online forums under a pseudonym, the person posting the OP has 'power' over others in determining the scope of conversation. People that adhere to norms have power over people that do not. People construct power relationships with others all the time by demonstrating knowledge or lack of knowledge regarding specific topics, so that when there is a knowledge disparity, the person with less knowledge cedes to the person with more knowledge in conversation itself. We do it all the time without being aware of it. For example, I have power to describe how I am feeling right now. That power is nearly absolute-- if I were to say I'm feeling great, you wouldn't be able to say 'no, you feel crappy' without sounding absurd, or in some ridiculously specific situation. This power extends to other areas as well, if I am acknowledged as an 'expert' in some field, my opinion takes precedence over the opinions of others by default, though it can be overridden with evidence or logic etc, the burden of proof doesn't lie with the expert however, it lies with the person potentially disagreeing with the expert.
We can't talk about a society without power relations, that's nonsense.
Elders in most societies (including non-Asian ones) are afforded more power because of life experience. Many traditions have codified cultural 'norms' that make this type of relation explicit. Often these relations come with accompanying responsibilities as well-- a culture is fundamentally unstable when it culturally concentrates power without responsibility in elite members of society, so most surviving societies have balanced cultural power relations.
In some societies, undue (in my opinion) power is given to those with disproportionate amount of wealth. This power lies in their ability to shape decision making processes, this is something we all recognize as a problem in the world right now.
This power also however lies in giving them a sort of cultural precedence. People emulate their lifestyles, cede to them in conversation or give them the benefit of the doubt in matters of opinion. This is a fundamental in analyzing consumerist lifestyle.
This is a case, in my opinion, of undue power as well-- there is little logical reason for power in one domain (wealth, and privilege afforded to wealth) to transfer over to other domains (opinion, lifestyle, ideology, notions of aesthetics), but it does.
This is logically equivalent to the abuse of power by elders, who may have more life experience in certain domains, and are afforded precedence because of it, and who utilize that precedence to assume power in other domains. (i.e. I am your elder, I know what is good for you, therefore do as I say. (despite the fact that the world may be drastically different now than when it was when this elder acquired life experience).)
This is different however from ceding in conversation to elders who likely do know more than we do, and will have insights that we may lack. Respect for ones elders in many situations is logically equivalent to the reason we give power/weight to people in expressing their emotions, since they actually do know better, and it'd be a screwed up society that gave power to people that knew LESS about something.
When we defy power relations, we are subject to cultural sanctions. In conversation, for example, if you tell me how I feel, you will look absurd, and teasing or ridiculing you in conversation becomes relevant. With other power relations, there are inevitably a culturally-relevant set of sanctions. If you disobey your elders, some cultures allow a set of punishments or whatever. It is considered to be abusive, for example, for a parent to yell at their children out of the blue, but as a society we give parents a much wider berth, and don't consider it abusive to yell at children if they're openly defying their parents.
Consider also that it is more culturally acceptable to publicly denounce communism (there are no powerful communists in north america), than to denounce capitalism-- if you do the latter, it is conversationally relevant or follows from social norms to be called a "radical", which is presumably insulting. These norms follow directly from power relations. Some of which are necessary for a properly functioning society, others seem almost detrimental.
No solutions, I'm just providing a way to explain and draw connections.
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You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation right after he was talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure he knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation.
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On April 10 2012 08:44 B1nary wrote:
This is more out of curiosity, but what happens if you defy the age hierarchy? The hierarchy is based on traditions and doesn't have legal foundations, does it? Practically, what would happen if you, say, don't use respectful language or talk back to a senior?
One of two things can happen:
1. People will see you as strange and treat you like a contaminated being in fear of being placed in the same pool i.e. you become blacklisted as a rebel of Korean culture
2. People will see you as "globalized". They will treat you like a non-korean
Case 2 applies only to people with prolonged living abroad ..... AND if you are someone needed in the society, like a contractor or something.
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I think the korean culture got it right. I think its only fair the older you are the more respect you gain. I do agree that sometimes its abused but on the whole i think its very efficient at maintaining a respectful and emotive society
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Countries that use honorifics have the most airplane crashes due to pilot error for a reason, co pilots are too afraid to correct their superiors. It's all well and good until it essentially becomes a strait jacket on people in important situations.
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My family (Vietnamese) goes by that hierarchy which disgusts me that in this age and day people are still going by them.
Being older =/= automatic obedience and power but unfortunately it is.
I agree with TotalNightmare that respect should be earned and not given because of someone being older.
I have a lot of family arguments because of this system and they abuse their powers far too much in the family (not on me alone but other family members as well). The sad part is that the majority of people like OP, me and many more will eventually become older and some of us will abuse these powers themselves just like some of the current elders are doing now.
There's nothing to be done other than set the right example yourself and hope that others will do the same.
Respect can only be earned when you respect your fellow peers.
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Culture enforcing Illegitimate power. that's what it is.
We can easily understand the root of that phnomenom by looking at history.
The elders had more experience and insights and were listened and respected. It was normal.
Because they were reckoned as being the wise. It was about following and respecting the wise, not litteraly the elder
Now we are in the present, culture has made an impact in society and BOOM you're supposed to respect the elder over logic, moral and common sense.
You do realise it makes no real sense but it's just another consequence of an outdated cult (that we now call culture).
I'm 27 and I'm alway amazed and learn a lots from kids and teenagers. They sometime see things in a way I don't. No one is inferior or superior, just different. I considere any person older than me as my "equal" in the sense of I know that he has lived more than me, has more experiences and probably more insights, I still have the right to doubt anything he says.
Don't trust the elder, trust the wiser and just for the moment.
I've been wrong 1000+ times in my life, and I don't feel that I'm special so I expect other to be wrong at times, whatever their age is.
Beware of people that looks sure of their beliefs.
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On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation when hes talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure He knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation.
So I m not allowed to ask him if he s not too drunk ? Him getting a disciplinary session from the seniors is one thing and him apologising to me is another. Why should a conflict started between us be settled by seniors ?
If he screwed up before and got slapped then it s fine. But I am the victim here and wanted to settle things with him.
I just don't understand how this whole thing works at all .....
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So one thing a humanities teacher taught me in high school that I thought was pretty cool is that essentially much of the building blocks behind "Eastern culture" stem from Confucian concepts, such as the concepts of benevolence and filial piety. This is where the hierarchical respect comes from, such as strong respect from kid to parent, as you see in Korean culture. With regard to "confucian concepts" I'm referring directly to China, but I would imagine how this type of respect and social structure pervades Korean culture is at least somewhat related...
Anyway, it could make sense that you think it's pretty weird or "off" because in contrast, as a "Westerner", much of your own cultural building blocks stem from ideas developed by Plato/Socrates, which are the basis for valuing "the state" and reason, etc, instead of parents/rulers/higher ups in the Confucian, hierarchical system of respect and values.
I dunno if that's entirely meaningful to your experience, but what you wrote seems kinda confusing in any case, so I figured I'd drop it even if it's not the type of reply you were looking for
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The thing is, respecting your elders has been corrupted into a totalitarian form of control. It's very common with Korean people... The adults that twist this idea of filial piety see that they don't have to earn your respect, and that you are REQUIRED to give them respect. It doesn't matter if they trash you and spit on your face, and no matter what they do, they expect you to respect and obey them...
Of course everything is dependent on the situation and persons involved. There are good seniors and bad seniors and good juniors and bad juniors. In your case if the seniors were actually good people, the drunk guy was probably having some problems and was thrashed along with the others because of their actions, words, etc.
Oh fucking please, if it was a gang or mafia, people would have lost fingers that night. Because you're not "Korean", but "Insert Country"-Korean, you don't understand as well as you think of the situation. The senior probably told you to "keep your head straight because this is no place for jokes" because maybe he thought you provoked the drunk guy or did something to taunt him, and therefore creating the problem in the first place. You're lucky you didn't get in trouble with them, someone probably vouched for you.
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On April 10 2012 09:04 spkim1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation when hes talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure He knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation. So I m not allowed to ask him if he s not too drunk ? Him getting a disciplinary session from the seniors is one thing and him apologising to me is another. Why should a conflict started between us be settled by seniors ? If he screwed up before and got slapped then it s fine. But I am the victim here and wanted to settle things with him. I just don't understand how this whole thing works at all .....
Well imagine if you were him. You just got slapped and yelled at. You can settle it with him some other time. In that current situation you should have just stayed quiet. You asking if hes drunk or not makes it seem like you're ignoring what just happened before especially since your seniors were there present. And honestly I think you're overestimating your role here. If he messed up, he would have been the only one getting yelled at but you said others were getting it too. That means this is beyond you and that guy now which is why in that situation the best action was to show respect and stay quiet.
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German point of view:
Respect the elder - since when has withering become an accomplishment?
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My wife is Korean. I think she takes the whole "treat your elders with respect" TOO FAR.
She lets one of her older friends walk over her sometimes and I'm like "WTF are you doing..." She just says that it's proper respect to not cause an altercation with her older friend. I don't give a fuck though... if someone of an older age does some stupid shit I'm a say something or argue with them.
I have been known to yell at some old Korean guys. This one racist Korean woman was pretty much calling my wife a slut because she was with an American guy and I got mad as fuck. My wife got pissed and then I got pissed and all hell was about to break loose. The old Korean guy that was at the woman's table was trying to make it look like the woman was right and we were wrong. So I started yelling at him and then another guy that looked in his late 20s told me in English that I shouldn't be arguing with the old Korean guy. I was like fuck that... he was being a dick to my wife along with the Korean woman. I was so close to throwing some blows. It was that disrespectful from them...
Honestly sometimes Korean mannerisms can be frustrating to deal with, but most of the time I've enjoyed my time there. There are good days and bad days just like in the US. To stay on topic though, I always felt that Korean "age hierarchy" and western respect was very similar. I always treat older people in the US with the same amount of respect I treated the elderly Koreans. It's just common sense to respect older individuals. They have a lot more experience and life knowledge than us younger peoples.
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EPT
