EPTAge Hierarchy Power in Asia is too much ? - Page 4
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lpstroggoz
New Zealand30 Posts
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Pasargadae
Korea (South)173 Posts
Respect for the "wiser" plays an integral part in Asian societies (bar the Chinese?), but its role is delicate. However, there's a clear delineation between respect and wrath and between wisdom and idiocy. These seniors clearly demonstrated that they had forgone any use of their wisdom and resorted to wrath: you have no need to respect these fools (if they really weren't inebriated). Had I been in that situation, I would have determined if certain bridges could've been burned and acted on that intuition (upon which I would unleash a mauling on these 병신들...ㅆㅂ I'm getting worked up). However, many of you in here are misunderstanding the current hierarchy. These types of incidents tend to be far and few in between; the relationships between seniors and juniors are mutually beneficial. Do not let this particular incident jar your imagination into romanticizing the conflict between the "oppressor and the oppressed." On April 10 2012 12:35 S2Glow wrote: this is a dumb rules that is being created just like other country with their community rules.. Like this chap here  | ||
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furymonkey
New Zealand1587 Posts
Especially the junior was in the wrong, so technically the senior is correcting him and making him a better person. This isn't some senior using their age forcing people to do things unreasonable. | ||
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Kid-Fox
Canada400 Posts
A relative of mine stood up for herself against her sister. In Korea, she would be regarded as an uneducated (in the cultural sense) rebel breaking social codes. Really she's just pointing out the obvious asshole-ry in the elder's actions. Power=/= Age or Wealth, but Respect On April 10 2012 13:31 furymonkey wrote: I feel this incident you described has not so much to do with age hierarchy but parenting. People might disagree with his method but that is another issue. Now days we often seen what lack of discipline has lead to, and people often blame the parents. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Yup, parenting is a part of it. Someone who doesn't have manners in Korea might not be criticized, but instead their parents. "What kind of parents would do such a poor job of raising their child to adhere to the established social norms?" | ||
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TheKwas
Iceland372 Posts
Anyways, for most social interactions if a senior is abusing their power, you just bow your head and apologize and then never hang out with that senior again (which is also why the most abusive relationships tend to happen in schools or workplaces where you can't avoid abusive seniors, but the western world has plenty of bullying in those places too). | ||
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zEnVy
United States446 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:34 danl9rm wrote: I'm not entirely sure what happened in your situation. It was hard to follow. But, it's not "superiority," it's respect. And you should always respect your elders. They've been around for longer than we have (obviously). That being said, however, 1 Timothy 4:12 says, "Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example..." People all over the world with all kinds of power will and have been abusing that power for, almost, ever. Where this is power, there is someone abusing it. That doesn't mean you charge in to work tomorrow and headbutt your boss because he deserves it. That also doesn't mean you start disrespecting your elders because they don't deserve your respect. This would not only make them wrong, but you as well. What''s so special about being on this planet longer than somebody else? Did you just quote a bible verse when engaging in logical debate. Really? | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On April 10 2012 11:52 Xiphos wrote: Idk man, as a Chinese, our history is not anything at all like the Korean one. In China, it is "everyone for themselves". They don't care how old you are, people are going to treat you like shit. Its only the Korean culture and maybe the Japanese one. It used to be prevalent in China as well...I mean, heck, the Emperor was basically the absolute extreme example of "ingrained respect". That mentality has faded though, unlike other oriental regions, for reasons I'm not nearly researched enough to guess at. Earlier exposure to western trade, maybe as the result of the dictatorship...who knows. | ||
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khaydarin9
Australia423 Posts
In my opinion, everyone deserves respect until they do something which makes me not respect them. I also think that you should be aware when you're in a culture that is not your own and that there are certain social elements of cultures that do not transplant. So if you're in an Asian culture, regardless if you think it's "barbaric", you are obliged on some level to attempt to understand and follow their culture; conversely, if you're an Asian migrant in a Western society, it is narrow-minded of you to expect everyone to follow your traditions. | ||
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furymonkey
New Zealand1587 Posts
On April 10 2012 13:50 WolfintheSheep wrote: It used to be prevalent in China as well...I mean, heck, the Emperor was basically the absolute extreme example of "ingrained respect". That mentality has faded though, unlike other oriental regions, for reasons I'm not nearly researched enough to guess at. Earlier exposure to western trade, maybe as the result of the dictatorship...who knows. Actually it was part of chinese culture as well, but it has been in a steady decline. Not just this but other good practices that Chinese culture used to encourage are gone from the majority mind set, it's sad to be honest. I don't know what caused, but I bet Mao Zedong was part of the problem with his stupid culture revolution. | ||
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spkim1
Canada286 Posts
One thing that cleared me up is the difference between respecting "willingly" and "forcefully". It is true that in western culture some people abandon their parents when they become self-sustainable. In Korea, such actions are seen as disgusting, and the person is seen as a "garbage child" (후례자식). I believe that, no matter what your parents did to you, at the bottom of the line they fed you, raised you, and loved you, cared and lived for you. Just from this, we are deeply indebted to them and have an obligation to be by their side and support them until the very end, if you have the tiniest dust of gratitude, that is. This is the reason why such aspects of this "respecting the elder" notion is so beautiful and why I want to follow it. There is a social pressure that kind of anchors every person's behaviour in Korea, making it a unified crowd. And within that anchor is the respect for the seniors; people frown at you if you don't. I believe this is the best way of keeping it working without giving too much power to the seniors. If someone defies this law, he or she will just become a social outcast. This means that seniors do not need to inflict any kind of additional punishment (physical, for example). This is not a gang, nor is it the military. Keep military training within barrack confines, for the soldiers. We are citizen. Moreover, respecting the elder should work only as long as the seniors act like they should. If they start acting like shit I believe it is only right to be able to tell them that they being wrong. And some seniors actually believe this too. And I respect them for having a wider perception. | ||
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Gummy
United States2180 Posts
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furymonkey
New Zealand1587 Posts
On April 10 2012 14:20 Gummy wrote: Does this mean my little brother looks up to me only because I'm older than he is and not because I forever spoil him and treat him like my little baby brother even though he's not a baby anymore? No, because you have earned his respect, but in the sametime if he did anything wrong, it is only reasonable for you to guide him, and correct him. | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
On April 10 2012 14:16 furymonkey wrote: Actually it was part of chinese culture as well, but it has been in a steady decline. Not just this but other good practices that Chinese culture used to encourage are gone from the majority mind set, it's sad to be honest. I don't know what caused, but I bet Mao Zedong was part of the problem with his stupid culture revolution. From what I've read in this thread, there's nothing good about it. Don't want to bring politics into this, but blindly respecting government leaders isn't doing your country a whole lot of good. | ||
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furymonkey
New Zealand1587 Posts
On April 10 2012 14:28 Azarkon wrote: From what I've read in this thread, there's nothing good about it. Good or not it's upto personal opinion, and I'm talking about how some practice like given seats to elderly ect. On April 10 2012 14:28 Azarkon wrote: Don't want to bring politics into this, but blindly respecting government leaders isn't doing your country a whole lot of good. You don't say? | ||
white_horse
1019 Posts
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MethodSC
United States928 Posts
On April 10 2012 14:17 spkim1 wrote: I believe that, no matter what your parents did to you, at the bottom of the line they fed you, raised you, and loved you, cared and lived for you. Just from this, we are deeply indebted to them and have an obligation to be by their side and support them until the very end, if you have the tiniest dust of gratitude, that is. This is the reason why such aspects of this "respecting the elder" notion is so beautiful and why I want to follow it. Not even you believe that, so why would you say it? | ||
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xOchievax
United States69 Posts
On April 10 2012 14:17 spkim1 wrote: There is a social pressure that kind of anchors every person's behaviour in Korea, making it a unified crowd. And within that anchor is the respect for the seniors; people frown at you if you don't. I believe this is the best way of keeping it working without giving too much power to the seniors. If someone defies this law, he or she will just become a social outcast. This means that seniors do not need to inflict any kind of additional punishment (physical, for example). This is not a gang, nor is it the military. Keep military training within barrack confines, for the soldiers. We are citizen. Moreover, respecting the elder should work only as long as the seniors act like they should. If they start acting like shit I believe it is only right to be able to tell them that they being wrong. And some seniors actually believe this too. And I respect them for having a wider perception. I understand (and agree with to a certain extent) the logic behind the idea that people have a responsibility to care for and support their own parents as they get older , but why would this type of respect apply to all seniors? How is it fair that older people are given these social privileges/powers regardless of their actions, words, or accomplishments. It just seems completely unjustifiable to me that in a social situation some people are given positions of power over others based solely on age. It makes much more sense to me to have social privleges based on the merits of individuals rather than placement in arbitrary groups. Perhaps an age based heirarchy system promotes social order of some sort, but is that order truly worth the inherant injustice of the system? I don't intend to bash Asian culture. I am just legitimately curious as to how this kind of heirarchy can be justified. | ||
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shannn
Netherlands2891 Posts
On April 10 2012 14:49 MethodSC wrote: Not even you believe that, so why would you say it? Unfortunately he isn't the only one. Some family members of mine have been treated badly (read: treated as trash) by their parents and elder family members and it's worse than what OP has experienced and they are still standing by their family. It's deeply rooted in the culture of my (Vietnamese) family that most will abide by the elders no matter what (crazy I know). I've actually told my parents that whenever they do something stupid to me I'd cut ties with them and walk out of the door right away. On the other hand if the parents didn't do anything and the child doesn't take care of them then he's like OP and others mentioned cut from family ties or for a simpler word trash (don't know the exact translation from Vietnamese to English). So yes OP does believe what he said and most of my family members as well (I only up till a certain point). Edit: Parents actually expect their children to take care of them as well. So it's not like the children come up with it themselves. My parents have told me a million times to take care of them when they get older. | ||
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[Agony]x90
United States853 Posts
On April 10 2012 13:46 zEnVy wrote: What''s so special about being on this planet longer than somebody else? Did you just quote a bible verse when engaging in logical debate. Really? Had he not stated that it had come from the bible, would you have known the difference? Just because it's from a religious text does not mean it is neither relevant nor incorrect. Don't base its merit on superficial things, and you are never in the right solely on the fact that you believe someone else is wrong. That being said, someone who has been around long enough has likely experienced more than you. This means that they just might know better, even if it doesn't appear it. If you don't respect them, then you'll likely not listen or pay attention to them. If you have probable reason not to believe that they do or that they may be misleading you because they are not as wise as you might have though, then feel free to disregard them. That being said, these older men clearly showed their inability to assess and deal with a situation. They are not wise and therefore not worthy of respect. Of course, I would still be cautious, since they might not care if you respect them or not and could kick your ass if you try to intervene. EDIT: I didn't want to repost, but to the post below. I agree. It is not a one sided thing. In fact, the older person is at times subservient to the younger person. If two people go out to dinner, it is customary for the older person to pay for the younger. The concept is that the older person will take care of the younger, so long as the younger respects the older. In the case for parents, the parent will care for and nurture the child, so that the child in turn will take care of the parent when the parent is too old to care for himself. And this does not mean that the child will do this as a result of involuntary requirement, but because the child RESPECTS his or her parents. Respect, in my opinion, is not something set in stone and varies by relation and by person. | ||
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white_horse
1019 Posts
On April 10 2012 14:52 xOchievax wrote: I understand (and agree with to a certain extent) the logic behind the idea that people have a responsibility to care for and support their own parents as they get older , but why would this type of respect apply to all seniors? How is it fair that older people are given these social privileges/powers regardless of their actions, words, or accomplishments. It just seems completely unjustifiable to me that in a social situation some people are given positions of power over others based solely on age. It makes much more sense to me to have social privleges based on the merits of individuals rather than placement in arbitrary groups. Perhaps an age based heirarchy system promotes social order of some sort, but is that order truly worth the inherant injustice of the system? I don't intend to bash Asian culture. I am just legitimately curious as to how this kind of heirarchy can be justified. Guys!!! It's not as bad as you think it might be!! It's not the situation where the oldest guy sits around telling everyone what to do like they are servants or something. That's just an imagination you might think in your head. There are many pros about this kind of culture. It's not necessarily "respect" as in "I respect this guy simply because he's older than me"; it's more like you just fall in line behind them because they are percieved to be the leader or the head. You don't have to personally respect or like a senior simply because he's older. I certainly don't. You just lower yourself a little bit and put on a little air of being submissive to them. It's totally different from the west with the way you subliminally shift the way you act depending on who you are with. | ||
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