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So wherever you go there is the saying "respect the elder" and I mostly agree with it.
Seeing how I am Korean by blood but not by nationality, I have had a good taste of both western and asian cultures (although these strongly vary from country to country).
One of the more interesting differences is the power and authority you gain when you are older than the others in asia.
This has many positive advantages but I also hear and see so many abuses of power and injustice that I am beginning to doubt about this notion of age superiority and power.
I had always believed that belonging to an ethnic group that is strongly collectivist, the hierarchy of age was a good and only good thing. I tend to respect my seniors and look after my juniors, and the reason I do this is because both seniors and juniors treat me well and care after me if I do this. As a senior to some, I feel responsible in helping them and teaching them whenever they have troubles in life, and I also seek support from my seniors when I have difficult times. This is a great, caring relationship.
That was until I experienced a bizzare happening.
One day I was drinking with Korean people and this guy the same age as me got very drunk and attacked me and cursed at me for no apparent reason (barely knew him, and we were on good terms generally, greeting each other, and that day too I only greeted him, not having had a chance to speak to him again later that night). Seniors dragged him out and after a while a junior came to fetch me out. As I walked outside I saw the guy, and other guys my age getting slapped across the face by a senior. When I asked the guy (my age) whether he was not too drunk and ok, another senior dragged me out and told me to "keep my head straight because this is no place for jokes". I obviously complied and apologised, saying I understood (actually, in my head I was confused which part I was supposed to apologise for, and how straighter I can get my head).
Anyway, suddenly this whole thing seemed very hostile to me, and I felt I became some kind of member in a gang or mafia, with underlings getting beat up by elders with never a chance to fight back. I felt this was outright bullying and power abuse.
One part of me says I should understand this because this is Korean culture, but another part tells me something is wrong. Of course, I will never attempt to stop the seniors, but I'm wondering whether I should start seeing other people because this society starts freaking me out.
What are your thoughts on this ? What is right and wrong, and how should people act facing this kind of situation ?
EDIT: I want to clarify some points: when I refer to "seniors" in this context, I'm referring to people who are in the same social circle as you (enterprise, university, high-school, club, etc.), but have a higher social status primarily because they 1. are older in age, and 2. have joined the social circle before you have, and are therefore your 'teachers' in that field. Juniors are the opposite younger late-comers (lower-ranking position, lower-year at university, etc). In Korean we call them Seon-Bae (선배)(Seniors) and Hu-Bae (후배)(Juniors). The concept is that as a senior you take care of your confused and ignorant juniors, and you obey and listen to your experienced seniors - Alas, not always this wonderful relationship case as you can see.
Also, I want to clarify that parent-child relationship is outside of the scope of this discussion, as it is a significantly different relationship from senior-junior relationship for most people. Thanks in advance for your considerations and cooperation. If you REALLY want to discuss parent-child relationship then you may start another discussion separately.
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I think respect must be earned and this goes for everyone. I dont have good information about the korean culture but seriously if someone doesnt act like an adult why would you treat that person so?
Of cause there should ALWAYS be a basic amount of respect to each person but every other bit must be earned, be it through actions in the past (this is the part where being older might come in handy because you had more time) or through actions in the present.
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Power earned without effort is always wrong, no matter who it belongs to.
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With power someone is always bound to abuse it. It is important to respect your elders but sometimes they also commit mistakes and in certain situations they abuse the power that they are given. Things like that just make you more aware of the things around you and allow you to recognize when something is wrong or right.
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Gotta agree with TotalNightmare. There are just too many people older than me who don't deserve any special treatment or respect for me to take the whole "Respect your elders" thing seriously.
I think it stems from the Enlightenment. The one thing philosophers like John Locke and Francis Bacon all had in common was that they strongly believed in questioning things. Since "Respect your elders" is such an old and powerful tradition, it only makes sense that it'd be one of the first to be questioned.
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I'm not entirely sure what happened in your situation. It was hard to follow.
But, it's not "superiority," it's respect. And you should always respect your elders. They've been around for longer than we have (obviously). That being said, however, 1 Timothy 4:12 says, "Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example..."
People all over the world with all kinds of power will and have been abusing that power for, almost, ever. Where this is power, there is someone abusing it. That doesn't mean you charge in to work tomorrow and headbutt your boss because he deserves it. That also doesn't mean you start disrespecting your elders because they don't deserve your respect. This would not only make them wrong, but you as well.
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This is more out of curiosity, but what happens if you defy the age hierarchy? The hierarchy is based on traditions and doesn't have legal foundations, does it? Practically, what would happen if you, say, don't use respectful language or talk back to a senior?
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I don't think there is a universal right and wrong.
Wall of text inc.
On April 10 2012 08:32 SeungHwan wrote:
With power someone is always bound to abuse it. It is important to respect your elders but sometimes they also commit mistakes and in certain situations they abuse the power that they are given. Things like that just make you more aware of the things around you and allow you to recognize when something is wrong or right.
There is power implicit in everything we do. Even if we post in online forums under a pseudonym, the person posting the OP has 'power' over others in determining the scope of conversation. People that adhere to norms have power over people that do not. People construct power relationships with others all the time by demonstrating knowledge or lack of knowledge regarding specific topics, so that when there is a knowledge disparity, the person with less knowledge cedes to the person with more knowledge in conversation itself. We do it all the time without being aware of it. For example, I have power to describe how I am feeling right now. That power is nearly absolute-- if I were to say I'm feeling great, you wouldn't be able to say 'no, you feel crappy' without sounding absurd, or in some ridiculously specific situation. This power extends to other areas as well, if I am acknowledged as an 'expert' in some field, my opinion takes precedence over the opinions of others by default, though it can be overridden with evidence or logic etc, the burden of proof doesn't lie with the expert however, it lies with the person potentially disagreeing with the expert.
We can't talk about a society without power relations, that's nonsense.
Elders in most societies (including non-Asian ones) are afforded more power because of life experience. Many traditions have codified cultural 'norms' that make this type of relation explicit. Often these relations come with accompanying responsibilities as well-- a culture is fundamentally unstable when it culturally concentrates power without responsibility in elite members of society, so most surviving societies have balanced cultural power relations.
In some societies, undue (in my opinion) power is given to those with disproportionate amount of wealth. This power lies in their ability to shape decision making processes, this is something we all recognize as a problem in the world right now.
This power also however lies in giving them a sort of cultural precedence. People emulate their lifestyles, cede to them in conversation or give them the benefit of the doubt in matters of opinion. This is a fundamental in analyzing consumerist lifestyle.
This is a case, in my opinion, of undue power as well-- there is little logical reason for power in one domain (wealth, and privilege afforded to wealth) to transfer over to other domains (opinion, lifestyle, ideology, notions of aesthetics), but it does.
This is logically equivalent to the abuse of power by elders, who may have more life experience in certain domains, and are afforded precedence because of it, and who utilize that precedence to assume power in other domains. (i.e. I am your elder, I know what is good for you, therefore do as I say. (despite the fact that the world may be drastically different now than when it was when this elder acquired life experience).)
This is different however from ceding in conversation to elders who likely do know more than we do, and will have insights that we may lack. Respect for ones elders in many situations is logically equivalent to the reason we give power/weight to people in expressing their emotions, since they actually do know better, and it'd be a screwed up society that gave power to people that knew LESS about something.
When we defy power relations, we are subject to cultural sanctions. In conversation, for example, if you tell me how I feel, you will look absurd, and teasing or ridiculing you in conversation becomes relevant. With other power relations, there are inevitably a culturally-relevant set of sanctions. If you disobey your elders, some cultures allow a set of punishments or whatever. It is considered to be abusive, for example, for a parent to yell at their children out of the blue, but as a society we give parents a much wider berth, and don't consider it abusive to yell at children if they're openly defying their parents.
Consider also that it is more culturally acceptable to publicly denounce communism (there are no powerful communists in north america), than to denounce capitalism-- if you do the latter, it is conversationally relevant or follows from social norms to be called a "radical", which is presumably insulting. These norms follow directly from power relations. Some of which are necessary for a properly functioning society, others seem almost detrimental.
No solutions, I'm just providing a way to explain and draw connections.
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You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation right after he was talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure he knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation.
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On April 10 2012 08:44 B1nary wrote:
This is more out of curiosity, but what happens if you defy the age hierarchy? The hierarchy is based on traditions and doesn't have legal foundations, does it? Practically, what would happen if you, say, don't use respectful language or talk back to a senior?
One of two things can happen:
1. People will see you as strange and treat you like a contaminated being in fear of being placed in the same pool i.e. you become blacklisted as a rebel of Korean culture
2. People will see you as "globalized". They will treat you like a non-korean
Case 2 applies only to people with prolonged living abroad ..... AND if you are someone needed in the society, like a contractor or something.
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I think the korean culture got it right. I think its only fair the older you are the more respect you gain. I do agree that sometimes its abused but on the whole i think its very efficient at maintaining a respectful and emotive society
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Countries that use honorifics have the most airplane crashes due to pilot error for a reason, co pilots are too afraid to correct their superiors. It's all well and good until it essentially becomes a strait jacket on people in important situations.
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My family (Vietnamese) goes by that hierarchy which disgusts me that in this age and day people are still going by them.
Being older =/= automatic obedience and power but unfortunately it is.
I agree with TotalNightmare that respect should be earned and not given because of someone being older.
I have a lot of family arguments because of this system and they abuse their powers far too much in the family (not on me alone but other family members as well). The sad part is that the majority of people like OP, me and many more will eventually become older and some of us will abuse these powers themselves just like some of the current elders are doing now.
There's nothing to be done other than set the right example yourself and hope that others will do the same.
Respect can only be earned when you respect your fellow peers.
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Culture enforcing Illegitimate power. that's what it is.
We can easily understand the root of that phnomenom by looking at history.
The elders had more experience and insights and were listened and respected. It was normal.
Because they were reckoned as being the wise. It was about following and respecting the wise, not litteraly the elder
Now we are in the present, culture has made an impact in society and BOOM you're supposed to respect the elder over logic, moral and common sense.
You do realise it makes no real sense but it's just another consequence of an outdated cult (that we now call culture).
I'm 27 and I'm alway amazed and learn a lots from kids and teenagers. They sometime see things in a way I don't. No one is inferior or superior, just different. I considere any person older than me as my "equal" in the sense of I know that he has lived more than me, has more experiences and probably more insights, I still have the right to doubt anything he says.
Don't trust the elder, trust the wiser and just for the moment.
I've been wrong 1000+ times in my life, and I don't feel that I'm special so I expect other to be wrong at times, whatever their age is.
Beware of people that looks sure of their beliefs.
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On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation when hes talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure He knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation.
So I m not allowed to ask him if he s not too drunk ? Him getting a disciplinary session from the seniors is one thing and him apologising to me is another. Why should a conflict started between us be settled by seniors ?
If he screwed up before and got slapped then it s fine. But I am the victim here and wanted to settle things with him.
I just don't understand how this whole thing works at all .....
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So one thing a humanities teacher taught me in high school that I thought was pretty cool is that essentially much of the building blocks behind "Eastern culture" stem from Confucian concepts, such as the concepts of benevolence and filial piety. This is where the hierarchical respect comes from, such as strong respect from kid to parent, as you see in Korean culture. With regard to "confucian concepts" I'm referring directly to China, but I would imagine how this type of respect and social structure pervades Korean culture is at least somewhat related...
Anyway, it could make sense that you think it's pretty weird or "off" because in contrast, as a "Westerner", much of your own cultural building blocks stem from ideas developed by Plato/Socrates, which are the basis for valuing "the state" and reason, etc, instead of parents/rulers/higher ups in the Confucian, hierarchical system of respect and values.
I dunno if that's entirely meaningful to your experience, but what you wrote seems kinda confusing in any case, so I figured I'd drop it even if it's not the type of reply you were looking for
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The thing is, respecting your elders has been corrupted into a totalitarian form of control. It's very common with Korean people... The adults that twist this idea of filial piety see that they don't have to earn your respect, and that you are REQUIRED to give them respect. It doesn't matter if they trash you and spit on your face, and no matter what they do, they expect you to respect and obey them...
Of course everything is dependent on the situation and persons involved. There are good seniors and bad seniors and good juniors and bad juniors. In your case if the seniors were actually good people, the drunk guy was probably having some problems and was thrashed along with the others because of their actions, words, etc.
Oh fucking please, if it was a gang or mafia, people would have lost fingers that night. Because you're not "Korean", but "Insert Country"-Korean, you don't understand as well as you think of the situation. The senior probably told you to "keep your head straight because this is no place for jokes" because maybe he thought you provoked the drunk guy or did something to taunt him, and therefore creating the problem in the first place. You're lucky you didn't get in trouble with them, someone probably vouched for you.
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On April 10 2012 09:04 spkim1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation when hes talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure He knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation. So I m not allowed to ask him if he s not too drunk ? Him getting a disciplinary session from the seniors is one thing and him apologising to me is another. Why should a conflict started between us be settled by seniors ? If he screwed up before and got slapped then it s fine. But I am the victim here and wanted to settle things with him. I just don't understand how this whole thing works at all .....
Well imagine if you were him. You just got slapped and yelled at. You can settle it with him some other time. In that current situation you should have just stayed quiet. You asking if hes drunk or not makes it seem like you're ignoring what just happened before especially since your seniors were there present. And honestly I think you're overestimating your role here. If he messed up, he would have been the only one getting yelled at but you said others were getting it too. That means this is beyond you and that guy now which is why in that situation the best action was to show respect and stay quiet.
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German point of view:
Respect the elder - since when has withering become an accomplishment?
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My wife is Korean. I think she takes the whole "treat your elders with respect" TOO FAR.
She lets one of her older friends walk over her sometimes and I'm like "WTF are you doing..." She just says that it's proper respect to not cause an altercation with her older friend. I don't give a fuck though... if someone of an older age does some stupid shit I'm a say something or argue with them.
I have been known to yell at some old Korean guys. This one racist Korean woman was pretty much calling my wife a slut because she was with an American guy and I got mad as fuck. My wife got pissed and then I got pissed and all hell was about to break loose. The old Korean guy that was at the woman's table was trying to make it look like the woman was right and we were wrong. So I started yelling at him and then another guy that looked in his late 20s told me in English that I shouldn't be arguing with the old Korean guy. I was like fuck that... he was being a dick to my wife along with the Korean woman. I was so close to throwing some blows. It was that disrespectful from them...
Honestly sometimes Korean mannerisms can be frustrating to deal with, but most of the time I've enjoyed my time there. There are good days and bad days just like in the US. To stay on topic though, I always felt that Korean "age hierarchy" and western respect was very similar. I always treat older people in the US with the same amount of respect I treated the elderly Koreans. It's just common sense to respect older individuals. They have a lot more experience and life knowledge than us younger peoples.
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As a Chinese American, I honestly feel like Americans demand more respect for their elders than Chinese people (this excludes Taiwanese people). Perhaps I just haven't lived enough time in China but from what I've experienced, kids arguing and with parents and talking back is VERY common.
Since I live in a city with a lot of people from Taiwan, I can see that most Taiwanese parents demand much more respect than Chinese ones. Relationships also seem a bit more "forced".
As for Americans, I honestly have gotten in so much trouble in elementary school for "talking back" to teachers. Basically, when the teacher says something factually wrong and I correct them, the teacher rages and writes a letter to my parents saying that I'm a bad student (which I actually am not). I've been risen in an environment where I was taught to talk back if I believe it is right. And I do believe that this system is right.
Age =/= Correctness
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It's an old system that derived from pre-industrial age when many people were farmers and wealth came with time and age. Inheritance was a huge factor to how well off someone was during those times. Now that Korea is a post-industrial nation, those systematic values do not necessarily apply. Though they are not relevant with the times, it's considered honorable to respect the elderly (respecting anyone is pretty universal anyways). It's just an old value system that carried over to the post-industrial age, and it will probably see a great reduction with future generations. You're not strange for thinking that it's "strange" and even "hostile". People of all ages probably feel that way many times (there's always someone older than you), but more so with the younger generation and especially so with those who have multi-cultural background such as yourself.
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People should be judged by their actions, not their age. Ageism is as retarded as racism, sexism, etc.
If those Koreans "seniors" struck an American, they would probably get KTFO.
Old habits die hard I guess.
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On April 10 2012 08:29 drbrown wrote:
Power earned without effort is always wrong, no matter who it belongs to.
This. Old age is too easily achieved to be impressive, and is a reliable indicator only of life experience, not wisdom or insight or competence.
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I'm extremely confused: an elder senior citizen 65+ smacked around a junior (21+)?
If that's the case, I would have fought back. Anyone smacking me, is not portraying their anger or disappointment in the right way. Like i said, I don't understand what junior or senior means in Korean culture. Will someone explain this?
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On April 10 2012 08:58 firehand101 wrote:I think its only fair the older you are the more respect you gain.
Why?
Once upon a time, merely surviving to a ripe old age (or even past childhood) was an accomplishment, but how exactly is mere survival today worthy of respect?
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On April 10 2012 09:22 ranshaked wrote:
I'm extremely confused: an elder senior citizen 65+ smacked around a junior (21+)?
If that's the case, I would have fought back. Anyone smacking me, is not portraying their anger or disappointment in the right way. Like i said, I don't understand what junior or senior means in Korean culture. Will someone explain this?
Senior in this case is just someone you know who is older than you and junior is someone you know who is younger than you. The difference is that its not just any stranger who is older or younger than you but people you actually know.
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On April 10 2012 09:11 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:04 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation when hes talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure He knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation. So I m not allowed to ask him if he s not too drunk ? Him getting a disciplinary session from the seniors is one thing and him apologising to me is another. Why should a conflict started between us be settled by seniors ? If he screwed up before and got slapped then it s fine. But I am the victim here and wanted to settle things with him. I just don't understand how this whole thing works at all ..... Well imagine if you were him. You just got slapped and yelled at. You can settle it with him some other time. In that current situation you should have just stayed quiet. You asking if hes drunk or not makes it seem like you're ignoring what just happened before especially since your seniors were there present. And honestly I think you're overestimating your role here. If he messed up, he would have been the only one getting yelled but you said others were getting it too. That means this is beyond you and that guy now which is why in that situation the best action was to show respect and stay quiet.
I understand your point. I guess the influence of alcohol on me played a part too.
Still, I thought at our age things can be resolved by talking, no ?
Do we have to get so physical, whether we mess up or not ?
Is that the role of a senior ? Parents maybe ? Older brother ? Teacher ? Drill sergeant ?
I don't know ..... I would never slap a junior across the face, no matter how badly he messes up or no matter how much I cherish him. I believe THAT is overestimating my role. He is of age, he can learn from his mistakes without the slaps and beatings.
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On April 10 2012 09:22 ranshaked wrote:
I'm extremely confused: an elder senior citizen 65+ smacked around a junior (21+)?
If that's the case, I would have fought back. Anyone smacking me, is not portraying their anger or disappointment in the right way. Like i said, I don't understand what junior or senior means in Korean culture. Will someone explain this?
In Asian countries, maybe even in some other areas of the world, there is a heirarchy of relationships in many social relationships. For example, when you work at a company, the people who have worked there for longer than you have are technically your "seniors" and those that start working there after you are your "juniors". The seniors would teach the juniors what to do and basically, you are their squire/bitch to learn things from them and do what they ask from you. Now, the relationships between seniors and juniors differs depending on how/where you meet, but that's what it basically is.
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On April 10 2012 09:26 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:22 ranshaked wrote:
I'm extremely confused: an elder senior citizen 65+ smacked around a junior (21+)?
If that's the case, I would have fought back. Anyone smacking me, is not portraying their anger or disappointment in the right way. Like i said, I don't understand what junior or senior means in Korean culture. Will someone explain this? Senior in this case is just someone you know who is older than you and junior is someone you know who is younger than you. The difference is that its not just any stranger who is older or younger than you but people you actually know.
Hmm. I would not appreciate anyone talking down to me or smacking me. A lot of my friends vary in ages from 18-35 and we look at each other as equals. This "age" stuff is weird. I mean, I look up to y grandfather, and I respect him, but there's no way in hell he's going to smack me around
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On April 10 2012 08:25 TotalNightmare wrote:
I think respect must be earned and this goes for everyone. I dont have good information about the korean culture but seriously if someone doesnt act like an adult why would you treat that person so?
Of cause there should ALWAYS be a basic amount of respect to each person but every other bit must be earned, be it through actions in the past (this is the part where being older might come in handy because you had more time) or through actions in the present.
I agree 100%. I never understood this "respect the elderly" they tell you when you are a kid. As you said, respect has to be earned. Should I compliment someone just because he got old? woho, mad props bro
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Respecting someone for their age has always struck me as stupid. Or rather respecting them more BECAUSE of their age.
I've met older people with incredible knowledge and wisdom, and I've met old people full of anger and stupidity. Just like any other situation, you should respect people for the amount of respect they earn through their actions.
That being said, I tend to approach elders under the assumption that they will have something they can teach me. 60,70 years is a long time to be kicking around.
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On April 10 2012 09:26 spkim1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:11 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On April 10 2012 09:04 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation when hes talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure He knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation. So I m not allowed to ask him if he s not too drunk ? Him getting a disciplinary session from the seniors is one thing and him apologising to me is another. Why should a conflict started between us be settled by seniors ? If he screwed up before and got slapped then it s fine. But I am the victim here and wanted to settle things with him. I just don't understand how this whole thing works at all ..... Well imagine if you were him. You just got slapped and yelled at. You can settle it with him some other time. In that current situation you should have just stayed quiet. You asking if hes drunk or not makes it seem like you're ignoring what just happened before especially since your seniors were there present. And honestly I think you're overestimating your role here. If he messed up, he would have been the only one getting yelled but you said others were getting it too. That means this is beyond you and that guy now which is why in that situation the best action was to show respect and stay quiet. I understand your point. I guess the influence of alcohol on me played a part too. Still, I thought at our age things can be resolved by talking, no ? Do we have to get so physical, whether we mess up or not ? Is that the role of a senior ? Parents maybe ? Older brother ? Teacher ? Drill sergeant ? I don't know ..... I would never slap a junior across the face, no matter how badly he messes up or no matter how much I cherish him. I believe THAT is overestimating my role. He is of age, he can learn from his mistakes without the slaps and beatings.
Well since a lot of information is left out I'm left to assume what happened. They could have been just bad seniors abusing their powers but I'm just thinking of a situation where I can see where they were coming from. The reason some Koreans get physical is cause if someone really messes up, talking isn't really always the best option. Sometimes getting physical might be more effective in getting the message across. To answer your last question, you can say the role of a senior is to watch out for his juniors. For me I always considered ideally, the role of a 형/hyung/senior is someone you respect enough that when you mess up, he tells you and even if you first disagree, you give what he says a second thought just cause you respect him that much. If you're really confused, approach one of them about last night and just try to be as respectful as you can and tell them how confused you were about what happened. Some parts of Korean culture take some time to get used to. You might not always agree with it, but at least you can better understand it.
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I do agree that you should respect your elder. However, for me it only goes as far as common politeness. In my eyes, someone who is wise and can give you advice could be any age. There are people twice my age that are still complete idiots in my eyes, while there are people who are younger that I have a lot of respect for because I know what their experience is.
The "Korean system" and "Western system" (for lack of a better term) always have seem to differed to me in one fundamental way. Koreans get respect because everyone just gives it while westerners are used to having to "demand" respect. I also think this could be a partial explanation why Koreans are quiet/shy and polite while westerners are loud and rude (compared to eachother ofcourse).
I guess both ways have their advantages and disadvantages. We dont have to take shit from anyone just because they are older or whatnot, while Koreans seem to have a much more peaceful and orderly society.
Personally I would like to see some more respect in my society (the netherlands) because it seems to be all but gone nowadays. But I have to say that imo Korea has pushed their concept of respect a bit too far on the other side of the scale.. I mean come on, if some dude is 1 year older then you that doesn't mean he knows anything more about life than you, nor does it mean that you just have to take shit from him.
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On April 10 2012 09:14 Silentness wrote:
My wife is Korean. I think she takes the whole "treat your elders with respect" TOO FAR.
She lets one of her older friends walk over her sometimes and I'm like "WTF are you doing..." She just says that it's proper respect to not cause an altercation with her older friend. I don't give a fuck though... if someone of an older age does some stupid shit I'm a say something or argue with them.
I have been known to yell at some old Korean guys. This one racist Korean woman was pretty much calling my wife a slut because she was with an American guy and I got mad as fuck. My wife got pissed and then I got pissed and all hell was about to break loose. The old Korean guy that was at the woman's table was trying to make it look like the woman was right and we were wrong. So I started yelling at him and then another guy that looked in his late 20s told me in English that I shouldn't be arguing with the old Korean guy. I was like fuck that... he was being a dick to my wife along with the Korean woman. I was so close to throwing some blows. It was that disrespectful from them...
Honestly sometimes Korean mannerisms can be frustrating to deal with, but most of the time I've enjoyed my time there. There are good days and bad days just like in the US. To stay on topic though, I always felt that Korean "age hierarchy" and western respect was very similar. I always treat older people in the US with the same amount of respect I treated the elderly Koreans. It's just common sense to respect older individuals. They have a lot more experience and life knowledge than us younger peoples.
You see, this is a story that reflects the flaw in age hierarchy even more.
To be honest, I understand what wavelength those elders and your wife were at.
However, I can't help but end up believing that the ones who acted wrong are that old man and woman.
If you were Korean, you would probably have submitted to them. Even if the ones at fault are the old man and woman. Just another victim of age hierarchy.
However, since you are not Korean, you do not pertain to this rule.
And they should damn well know this and respect this fact. Them trying to force their culture on you was just totally wrong, and objectively speaking they are the ones at fault to begin with. It's like they didn't respect YOUR culture, morale and beliefs, and expected you to adjusr to them just because you became the husband of a Korean woman. However, they should well know that values and customs acquired eversince childhood does not change just because of marriage. Usually Koreans respect foreigners and their culture ..... I don't know what's wrong with those people.
Moreover, funny thing is, in Korean culture, the husband is attributed more power because he is the "central pillar" of the household i.e. takes responsibility for income, discipline, and general well-being of the family. The wife "enters" the man's family tree, with the man's family name. This means that according to this rule in our culture your wife must be seen as "westernized".
If your wife cannot understand this, you guys need a long talk, because this is a serious cultural problem that needs to be solved.
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Respect to me implies that you can learn something from someone. Obviously this sort of social good if you will must be earned and not just given to anyone older than you. Respect your elders comes from the notion that people older than you know more than you so you should listen to them to gain knowledge. This is obviously not always the case.
Of course Hierarchy would create greed of power, because there will always be someone better than someone else in that way of thinking and someone will always try to gain power over someone else. Until people realize that everyone is equal, and get over this power struggle, we will not move forward as a species.
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On April 10 2012 09:40 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:26 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 09:11 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On April 10 2012 09:04 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation when hes talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure He knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation. So I m not allowed to ask him if he s not too drunk ? Him getting a disciplinary session from the seniors is one thing and him apologising to me is another. Why should a conflict started between us be settled by seniors ? If he screwed up before and got slapped then it s fine. But I am the victim here and wanted to settle things with him. I just don't understand how this whole thing works at all ..... Well imagine if you were him. You just got slapped and yelled at. You can settle it with him some other time. In that current situation you should have just stayed quiet. You asking if hes drunk or not makes it seem like you're ignoring what just happened before especially since your seniors were there present. And honestly I think you're overestimating your role here. If he messed up, he would have been the only one getting yelled but you said others were getting it too. That means this is beyond you and that guy now which is why in that situation the best action was to show respect and stay quiet. I understand your point. I guess the influence of alcohol on me played a part too. Still, I thought at our age things can be resolved by talking, no ? Do we have to get so physical, whether we mess up or not ? Is that the role of a senior ? Parents maybe ? Older brother ? Teacher ? Drill sergeant ? I don't know ..... I would never slap a junior across the face, no matter how badly he messes up or no matter how much I cherish him. I believe THAT is overestimating my role. He is of age, he can learn from his mistakes without the slaps and beatings. Well since a lot of information is left out I'm left to assume what happened. They could have been just bad seniors abusing their powers but I'm just thinking of a situation where I can see where they were coming from. The reason some Koreans get physical is cause if someone really messes up, talking isn't really always the best option. Sometimes getting physical might be more effective in getting the message across. To answer your last question, you can say the role of a senior is to watch out for his juniors. For me I always considered ideally, the role of a 형/hyung/senior is someone you respect enough that when you mess up, he tells you and even if you first disagree, you give what he says a second thought just cause you respect him that much. If you're really confused, approach one of them about last night and just try to be as respectful as you can and tell them how confused you were about what happened. Some parts of Korean culture take some time to get used to. You might not always agree with it, but at least you can better understand it.
I understand. Thanks for your wise advice. You seem to understand Korean culture way better than I do (the use of 한글 letters leads me to believe you are Korean), and your proficiency in english makes me assume you are of a similar background to mine.
It sure isn't easy to fully integrate into Korean society, if not, I'm afraid, outright impossible, for westernized people like me !
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On April 10 2012 09:57 spkim1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:40 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On April 10 2012 09:26 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 09:11 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On April 10 2012 09:04 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation when hes talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure He knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation. So I m not allowed to ask him if he s not too drunk ? Him getting a disciplinary session from the seniors is one thing and him apologising to me is another. Why should a conflict started between us be settled by seniors ? If he screwed up before and got slapped then it s fine. But I am the victim here and wanted to settle things with him. I just don't understand how this whole thing works at all ..... Well imagine if you were him. You just got slapped and yelled at. You can settle it with him some other time. In that current situation you should have just stayed quiet. You asking if hes drunk or not makes it seem like you're ignoring what just happened before especially since your seniors were there present. And honestly I think you're overestimating your role here. If he messed up, he would have been the only one getting yelled but you said others were getting it too. That means this is beyond you and that guy now which is why in that situation the best action was to show respect and stay quiet. I understand your point. I guess the influence of alcohol on me played a part too. Still, I thought at our age things can be resolved by talking, no ? Do we have to get so physical, whether we mess up or not ? Is that the role of a senior ? Parents maybe ? Older brother ? Teacher ? Drill sergeant ? I don't know ..... I would never slap a junior across the face, no matter how badly he messes up or no matter how much I cherish him. I believe THAT is overestimating my role. He is of age, he can learn from his mistakes without the slaps and beatings. Well since a lot of information is left out I'm left to assume what happened. They could have been just bad seniors abusing their powers but I'm just thinking of a situation where I can see where they were coming from. The reason some Koreans get physical is cause if someone really messes up, talking isn't really always the best option. Sometimes getting physical might be more effective in getting the message across. To answer your last question, you can say the role of a senior is to watch out for his juniors. For me I always considered ideally, the role of a 형/hyung/senior is someone you respect enough that when you mess up, he tells you and even if you first disagree, you give what he says a second thought just cause you respect him that much. If you're really confused, approach one of them about last night and just try to be as respectful as you can and tell them how confused you were about what happened. Some parts of Korean culture take some time to get used to. You might not always agree with it, but at least you can better understand it. I understand. Thanks for your wise advice. You seem to understand Korean culture way better than I do (the use of 한글 letters leads me to believe you are Korean), and your proficiency in english makes me assume you are of a similar background to mine. It sure isn't easy to fully integrate into Korean society, if not, I'm afraid, outright impossible, for westernized people like me !
Why would you want to be part of a society where the use of force is justified just because of age? Makes absolutely no sense.
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one of my first posts on TL, but I had to weigh in. this has become a personal issue for me since coming to korea.
I got onto the subway the other day and went to sit but as I was sitting down, three old women pushed me out of the way so they could get three seats next to each other. I decided it would be best to just let them have their seats and be done with it. but honestly, as someone from the US, that kind of behavior just makes me respect my elders LESS. if two of them sat and the other remained standing, as soon as I saw that, I would have gotten up and offered her my seat, as I know I should do as a junior here in korea. but why should I show them any respect if they have the audacity to assume they can push me out of my seat just because I'm a young westerner? there is no earned respect there, and in the end, I actually lost some respect for them.
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On April 10 2012 09:31 Kimaker wrote:
Respecting someone for their age has always struck me as stupid. Or rather respecting them more BECAUSE of their age.
I've met older people with incredible knowledge and wisdom, and I've met old people full of anger and stupidity. Just like any other situation, you should respect people for the amount of respect they earn through their actions.
That being said, I tend to approach elders under the assumption that they will have something they can teach me. 60,70 years is a long time to be kicking around.
I agree with this statement completly. I respect people who deserve respect. MOST old people deserve it, because they simply have more experience than me. If they are just full of crap, then they deserve crap. This works in all levels of society. It's common sense.
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I don't see anything wrong with respecting your elder, as long as you don't go overboard with it. I don't think respect is letting someone take advantage of you, for example.
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On April 10 2012 10:00 MethodSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:57 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 09:40 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On April 10 2012 09:26 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 09:11 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On April 10 2012 09:04 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation when hes talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure He knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation. So I m not allowed to ask him if he s not too drunk ? Him getting a disciplinary session from the seniors is one thing and him apologising to me is another. Why should a conflict started between us be settled by seniors ? If he screwed up before and got slapped then it s fine. But I am the victim here and wanted to settle things with him. I just don't understand how this whole thing works at all ..... Well imagine if you were him. You just got slapped and yelled at. You can settle it with him some other time. In that current situation you should have just stayed quiet. You asking if hes drunk or not makes it seem like you're ignoring what just happened before especially since your seniors were there present. And honestly I think you're overestimating your role here. If he messed up, he would have been the only one getting yelled but you said others were getting it too. That means this is beyond you and that guy now which is why in that situation the best action was to show respect and stay quiet. I understand your point. I guess the influence of alcohol on me played a part too. Still, I thought at our age things can be resolved by talking, no ? Do we have to get so physical, whether we mess up or not ? Is that the role of a senior ? Parents maybe ? Older brother ? Teacher ? Drill sergeant ? I don't know ..... I would never slap a junior across the face, no matter how badly he messes up or no matter how much I cherish him. I believe THAT is overestimating my role. He is of age, he can learn from his mistakes without the slaps and beatings. Well since a lot of information is left out I'm left to assume what happened. They could have been just bad seniors abusing their powers but I'm just thinking of a situation where I can see where they were coming from. The reason some Koreans get physical is cause if someone really messes up, talking isn't really always the best option. Sometimes getting physical might be more effective in getting the message across. To answer your last question, you can say the role of a senior is to watch out for his juniors. For me I always considered ideally, the role of a 형/hyung/senior is someone you respect enough that when you mess up, he tells you and even if you first disagree, you give what he says a second thought just cause you respect him that much. If you're really confused, approach one of them about last night and just try to be as respectful as you can and tell them how confused you were about what happened. Some parts of Korean culture take some time to get used to. You might not always agree with it, but at least you can better understand it. I understand. Thanks for your wise advice. You seem to understand Korean culture way better than I do (the use of 한글 letters leads me to believe you are Korean), and your proficiency in english makes me assume you are of a similar background to mine. It sure isn't easy to fully integrate into Korean society, if not, I'm afraid, outright impossible, for westernized people like me ! Why would you want to be part of a society where the use of force is justified just because of age? Makes absolutely no sense.
I guess it's something to do with other advantages within the culture that I have not mentionned in this post. Koreans are intense people who like to have fun in a very explosive way, but also work in a fired-up fashion. Once you get used to this dynamism, you learn to get swirled away into an intense and entertaining society and end-up asking for more. Although if you screw up, you have a hard time for a while, it's definitely fun being around with them.
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it really affected me hard. I cant talk to older people straight up if i dont know them or dont talk to them. IT SUCKS.
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Its outdated archaic concept, that simply shouldnt of ever existed. Older people can be worse in every single way than someone younger than them. Respect is earned not given. And ageing in no way is earning anything, everyone ages its not very hard.
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In my opinion there is an important difference between being respected and being able to disrespect others with impunity. Elders shouldn't feel entitled to be condescending and insulting based solely on their age.
With that being said, I am always happy to listen to the thoughts and worldviews of old people. Even if their ideas dont make sense to me, I try to give them an opportunity to fully express themselves before asking critical questions. If an elderly person is incapable of defending and explaining their beliefs in a calm, non-hostile manner, they probably are not as wise as some Asian cultures would portray them as anyways.
Ultimately I treat older people with more or less the same respect as anyone else. Perhaps I would give elders more of a chance to substantiate views. After living for such a long time the elderly have had more of a chance to formulate their thoughts and opinions on the world. That, in my opinion, is the only true value which an age based respect system might have. Petty insults and arrogance should be just as unacceptable for people of any age.
Yet I admit there is something extremely admirable about some elders. I am far more impressed by those who respect their youngers than those who respect their elders. The ability to simultaneously respect a younger generation's culture and communitate long-held wisdoms (and defend them without hostility) is what truly makes some elders worthy of my respect.
Keep in mind that this kind of respect must be earned. I do not go around assuming that every elder I meet is worthy of my absolute respect. In fact it seems that elders who meet the above criteria are in the minority.
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This is one of the reason why people talking about "Korean respect" in terms of SC2 bothers me. Most of them try to put the Korean culture on some kind of pedestal, and pretend that it's some gold standard that everyone should aspire to.
What they don't really realize, though, is that much of Asian culture is about ingrained respect. Not true respect, in that people are empathetic and genuinely want to get along with everyone else. It's that they've been trained to bow their head, act polite, and to "know their role" in society, so to speak. People older than you are above you, people with a higher company position are above you, etc. which results in a lot of two-faced nature.
Not to say that the Western attitudes are better. They're different, and extremely contrasting, and if I had to generalize, Western upbringing is much better for the individual, and Asian upbringing is better for the community.
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My country emphasizes age WAY TOO MUCH. Wish it would get toned down.
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On April 10 2012 11:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:
This is one of the reason why people talking about "Korean respect" in terms of SC2 bothers me. Most of them try to put the Korean culture on some kind of pedestal, and pretend that it's some gold standard that everyone should aspire to.
What they don't really realize, though, is that much of Asian culture is about ingrained respect. Not true respect, in that people are empathetic and genuinely want to get along with everyone else. It's that they've been trained to bow their head, act polite, and to "know their role" in society, so to speak. People older than you are above you, people with a higher company position are above you, etc. which results in a lot of two-faced nature.
Not to say that the Western attitudes are better. They're different, and extremely contrasting, and if I had to generalize, Western upbringing is much better for the individual, and Asian upbringing is better for the community.
Idk man, as a Chinese, our history is not anything at all like the Korean one. In China, it is "everyone for themselves". They don't care how old you are, people are going to treat you like shit. Its only the Korean culture and maybe the Japanese one.
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the concept of it is great... but in practice its not so great..
there are just too many people who dont deserve it, nor earned it
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Yeah, I think the whole 'hyung' seniority thing can be taken far too seriously sometimes, but then again I don't really hang out with Korean people despite myself being Korean so yah.
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respect is given to both sides (old and young), old does have authority and have the final word, out of respect. ie. if you're being punished/scold for something, do not make excuses.
i assume the guy was getting slapped because of the way he behaved while other people, especially older folks were present. and some behavior is not acceptable, like acting stupid while drunk.
in my view, respect is given but its maintenance must be earned. young should respect the old unless the old acts in away to neglect that respect, such as taking advantage of the fact that old should hold power and abusing it.
and one thing, this hierarchy is strong in the military and you know about koreans and military. that still lives on in the background of adult life. misbehaving in front of those you should behave, will get you in trouble. acting out in front of elders/older/those-who-you-should-behave-in-front-of is a big no no.
i think this is old way of thinking and with the newer generation, its changing, its getting toned down. for example, i grew up with confucius/corporate punishment in school, women and children eating in separate tables as men, one is now illegal and the other, except for deep country side, people dont eat at separate tables anymore.
this authority is sometimes taken far but remember that the fault lies in the individual, not the culture.
i will not respect those who abuse their "hyung/oppa" status no more and i will call it out in front of their face. this mentality is what america has taught me.
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The way I understood it, although elders should be respected by their juniors, the elders have a responsibility to act appropriately as well. It shouldn't be a one way street. The way AAK's blog describes it makes sense to me:
http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2011/06/confucianism-and-korea-part-vi-korean.htmlAbuse of Hierarchical Position Confucianism is commonly described as emphasizing hierarchy. That is a fair description in a sense because in almost every Confucian relation, there is a clear order of who comes first, and who comes second -- parents over children, ruler over subjects, husband over wife, older over younger. But the Korean so far has avoided the term "hierarchical," and instead opted for the term "relational." That choice was made because the Korean believed the term "hierarchical" missed an important element in Confucian relations -- that each person in a relationship, whether superior or inferior, has a certain duty corresponding to his/her status in the relationship. In, the highest ideal of Confucianism, is a natural result when everyone acts on his duty. Often, this element is ignored in contemporary Korea. Instead, what ends up happening is a naked power play in the guise of Confucianism. Political leaders demand respect while not having done much to inspire such respect from the people. Bosses demand deference without doing much to inspire the deference from their employees. Older Koreans yell at younger Koreans rather than persuade. Facing this dynamic, instead of naturally obeying their superiors, Koreans often do so with bitten lips and gritted teeth. More Confucianism will help this situation. Under the more orthodox view of Confucianism, such leaders and bosses will soon lose the heaven's mandate to lead, because they have not fulfilled their own duties. Once the heaven's mandate is lost, they no longer deserve to be in that position. In fact, this is the core message that enabled the Joseon Dynasty, which replaced Goryeo Dynasty that was supposed to have lost the heaven's mandate. Likewise, orthodox Confucianism envisions a dynamic relationship within a hierarchy. Hierarchy is necessary; there is no group that can properly function without a leader who can take decisive actions. Focusing on the duties of the leaders of the hierarchy, as Confucianism calls for, will make the various hierarchies in Korea run smoother.
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Yes, abuse of power due to age occurs.
However, think about it the other way - this respect your elders helped keep society in check. The OP cites a story where the senior was disciplining someone and that was for the junior's own good. Better the discipline than someone behaving badly.
Also respect doesn't mean you let people trample all over you - alot of people have the wrong mindset about it. If someone disrepects you, let them know about it - if they persist, walk away.
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this is a dumb rules that is being created just like other country with their community rules.. i heard of korean senior and junior position but in my country is all about whether you know how to fight or not. :D
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Violence is bad. Being involved in gang activity is usually bad. Drinking beyond moderation is often bad, especially in hostile environment.
I don't think the age hierarchy system is the core of the problem. Sure, the hierarchy may have contributed various factors to the incident you witnessed, but it's more of a case of people drinking when they shouldn't in amounts they shouldn't with people they shouldn't and in a place they shouldn't.
I'd even go out on a limb and say the core of the problem is the widely accepted alcohol consumption in culture and even law - there was an infamous case recently in Korea (within last 2 years I think?) where a child molester/rapist was handed down a relatively minor sentence with one of the reasons being that he was deemed to be drunk during the rape. Don't quote me on that, I didn't do an extensive study of the case or anything, but that's what I remember from the Korean news at the time.
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This incident saddens me, as I've always thought the notion of respecting your elders was really badass.. I've gained tons of wisdom from people older than myself, but there's always some scum in every group...
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On April 10 2012 12:35 S2Glow wrote:
this is a dumb rules that is being created just like other country with their community rules.. i heard of korean senior and junior position but in my country is all about whether you know how to fight or not. :D
Please don't shame our country in a public forum.
In our country, it still do work like that. Elders in the family will be given respect, albeit more westernised. However, I would prefer such a system over one which gives total freedom. There are also many examples of people misusing their freedom, such as moving out from your house, abandoning your parents once you've reached 18 years of age. With these hierarchy system, there comes natural respect for your parents, giving them some form of power over you.
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Ya i agree with most of the previous posts.
I'm chinese and I believe that elders should be treated with respect, under the condition that they don't treat you like shit.
I'm in a family where my parents think that they are better than me in everything (no exaggeration), even English (lol, they can't speak much english at all). And whenever something in the house went wrong, they would always blame me, even if it had nothing to do with me at all, because they think that i lack knowledge and experience and somehow some way is the source of all the problems in the house. So when i talk back to them and get mad in that situation, I don't really feel i did something that is completely againest my chinese ancestry, since my parents didn't even think rationally and simply abused their power to blame me.
And ya in chinese culture it's "always show absolute respect to elders" period, so i guess living in canada really let me opened my eyes to how people should logically be treated. (Helariously enough this change in culture view is depicted as really evil, and to quote my parents and relatives "ruined young kids who went to the west, to learn to say no to parents.")
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I think a lot of people here are getting confused by the word "senior" or "elder". Typically in english, when we say respect your senior we mean respect old people, as in people our father's age and older. In Korean culture, a 형/hyeong/senior is anyone older than you by atleast one year (or, depending on how the birthdays work out in relation to New Years, even less).
In the case of this story, I imagine that everyone was in a similar age group, but the seniors were a few years older and the juniors still had to show respect to their hyeong. It's almost like a frat, except Koreans aren't frat-house douchebags.
Of course, if you become close friends with a senior or a junior, you can drop the honourifics and speak your mind more freely around them as an equal. However, upon the first meeting, you must be respectful of your elders and in return the seniors are expected to take care of their juniors (which often includes paying for everything during the night).
There is a lot of abuse with these sorts of relationships, perhaps most commonly older oppas (older brother relationship to a girl) will try to pull rank to make younger female friends hang out with them or attend association meetings the females would rather skip, but on the whole these relationships are not abusive at all and instead just clarify how you should act in social settings.
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respecting people automatically because of their age is barbaric, imo. I respect people based on what they do/say/think/ect.
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There's a fundamental premise all of you must realize: people are ignoramuses (save the fortunate few gifted with truly powerful minds). Every word and action must be taken with this grain of salt, regardless of age. That being said, I have also lived in both Western and Korean societies, but my development of respect for elders came later. Despite how stupid people may seem, age arguably augments wisdom, which I have come to duly appreciate. Thus, it pains me to hear this anecdote because these elders' cravenness and ignorance and is literally seeping through the screen.
Respect for the "wiser" plays an integral part in Asian societies (bar the Chinese?), but its role is delicate. However, there's a clear delineation between respect and wrath and between wisdom and idiocy. These seniors clearly demonstrated that they had forgone any use of their wisdom and resorted to wrath: you have no need to respect these fools (if they really weren't inebriated). Had I been in that situation, I would have determined if certain bridges could've been burned and acted on that intuition (upon which I would unleash a mauling on these 병신들...ㅆㅂ I'm getting worked up).
However, many of you in here are misunderstanding the current hierarchy. These types of incidents tend to be far and few in between; the relationships between seniors and juniors are mutually beneficial. Do not let this particular incident jar your imagination into romanticizing the conflict between the "oppressor and the oppressed."
On April 10 2012 12:35 S2Glow wrote:
this is a dumb rules that is being created just like other country with their community rules..
Like this chap here 
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I feel this incident you described has not so much to do with age hierarchy but parenting. People might disagree with his method but that is another issue. Now days we often seen what lack of discipline has lead to, and people often blame the parents. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Especially the junior was in the wrong, so technically the senior is correcting him and making him a better person. This isn't some senior using their age forcing people to do things unreasonable.
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This custom can be good in many cases with older siblings/friends taking good care of the younger generation and teaching them properly. However, I've seen abuse of this pretty badly in recent days. Not all seniors act proper to their juniors. OP's instance of senior abuse is pretty bad too.
A relative of mine stood up for herself against her sister. In Korea, she would be regarded as an uneducated (in the cultural sense) rebel breaking social codes. Really she's just pointing out the obvious asshole-ry in the elder's actions.
Power=/= Age or Wealth, but Respect
On April 10 2012 13:31 furymonkey wrote:
I feel this incident you described has not so much to do with age hierarchy but parenting. People might disagree with his method but that is another issue. Now days we often seen what lack of discipline has lead to, and people often blame the parents. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Yup, parenting is a part of it. Someone who doesn't have manners in Korea might not be criticized, but instead their parents.
"What kind of parents would do such a poor job of raising their child to adhere to the established social norms?"
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A common insult in Korean is "You don't have a mom?"
Anyways, for most social interactions if a senior is abusing their power, you just bow your head and apologize and then never hang out with that senior again (which is also why the most abusive relationships tend to happen in schools or workplaces where you can't avoid abusive seniors, but the western world has plenty of bullying in those places too).
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On April 10 2012 08:34 danl9rm wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what happened in your situation. It was hard to follow.
But, it's not "superiority," it's respect. And you should always respect your elders. They've been around for longer than we have (obviously). That being said, however, 1 Timothy 4:12 says, "Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example..."
People all over the world with all kinds of power will and have been abusing that power for, almost, ever. Where this is power, there is someone abusing it. That doesn't mean you charge in to work tomorrow and headbutt your boss because he deserves it. That also doesn't mean you start disrespecting your elders because they don't deserve your respect. This would not only make them wrong, but you as well.
What''s so special about being on this planet longer than somebody else?
Did you just quote a bible verse when engaging in logical debate. Really?
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On April 10 2012 11:52 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 11:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:
This is one of the reason why people talking about "Korean respect" in terms of SC2 bothers me. Most of them try to put the Korean culture on some kind of pedestal, and pretend that it's some gold standard that everyone should aspire to.
What they don't really realize, though, is that much of Asian culture is about ingrained respect. Not true respect, in that people are empathetic and genuinely want to get along with everyone else. It's that they've been trained to bow their head, act polite, and to "know their role" in society, so to speak. People older than you are above you, people with a higher company position are above you, etc. which results in a lot of two-faced nature.
Not to say that the Western attitudes are better. They're different, and extremely contrasting, and if I had to generalize, Western upbringing is much better for the individual, and Asian upbringing is better for the community. Idk man, as a Chinese, our history is not anything at all like the Korean one. In China, it is "everyone for themselves". They don't care how old you are, people are going to treat you like shit. Its only the Korean culture and maybe the Japanese one.
It used to be prevalent in China as well...I mean, heck, the Emperor was basically the absolute extreme example of "ingrained respect". That mentality has faded though, unlike other oriental regions, for reasons I'm not nearly researched enough to guess at. Earlier exposure to western trade, maybe as the result of the dictatorship...who knows.
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My experience of Chinese culture is that it is very much one of respect your elders, though I'm not sure if that's necessarily elders in general or specifically elders in your family. Parents treat kids on one set of terms, and kids interact with their parents on another different set of terms, and that is considered acceptable because "I'm your mother/father/grandparent".
In my opinion, everyone deserves respect until they do something which makes me not respect them. I also think that you should be aware when you're in a culture that is not your own and that there are certain social elements of cultures that do not transplant. So if you're in an Asian culture, regardless if you think it's "barbaric", you are obliged on some level to attempt to understand and follow their culture; conversely, if you're an Asian migrant in a Western society, it is narrow-minded of you to expect everyone to follow your traditions.
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On April 10 2012 13:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 11:52 Xiphos wrote:On April 10 2012 11:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:
This is one of the reason why people talking about "Korean respect" in terms of SC2 bothers me. Most of them try to put the Korean culture on some kind of pedestal, and pretend that it's some gold standard that everyone should aspire to.
What they don't really realize, though, is that much of Asian culture is about ingrained respect. Not true respect, in that people are empathetic and genuinely want to get along with everyone else. It's that they've been trained to bow their head, act polite, and to "know their role" in society, so to speak. People older than you are above you, people with a higher company position are above you, etc. which results in a lot of two-faced nature.
Not to say that the Western attitudes are better. They're different, and extremely contrasting, and if I had to generalize, Western upbringing is much better for the individual, and Asian upbringing is better for the community. Idk man, as a Chinese, our history is not anything at all like the Korean one. In China, it is "everyone for themselves". They don't care how old you are, people are going to treat you like shit. Its only the Korean culture and maybe the Japanese one. It used to be prevalent in China as well...I mean, heck, the Emperor was basically the absolute extreme example of "ingrained respect". That mentality has faded though, unlike other oriental regions, for reasons I'm not nearly researched enough to guess at. Earlier exposure to western trade, maybe as the result of the dictatorship...who knows.
Actually it was part of chinese culture as well, but it has been in a steady decline. Not just this but other good practices that Chinese culture used to encourage are gone from the majority mind set, it's sad to be honest.
I don't know what caused, but I bet Mao Zedong was part of the problem with his stupid culture revolution.
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OK, I've been reading the posts so far.
One thing that cleared me up is the difference between respecting "willingly" and "forcefully".
It is true that in western culture some people abandon their parents when they become self-sustainable.
In Korea, such actions are seen as disgusting, and the person is seen as a "garbage child" (후례자식).
I believe that, no matter what your parents did to you, at the bottom of the line they fed you, raised you, and loved you, cared and lived for you. Just from this, we are deeply indebted to them and have an obligation to be by their side and support them until the very end, if you have the tiniest dust of gratitude, that is. This is the reason why such aspects of this "respecting the elder" notion is so beautiful and why I want to follow it.
There is a social pressure that kind of anchors every person's behaviour in Korea, making it a unified crowd. And within that anchor is the respect for the seniors; people frown at you if you don't. I believe this is the best way of keeping it working without giving too much power to the seniors. If someone defies this law, he or she will just become a social outcast. This means that seniors do not need to inflict any kind of additional punishment (physical, for example). This is not a gang, nor is it the military. Keep military training within barrack confines, for the soldiers. We are citizen.
Moreover, respecting the elder should work only as long as the seniors act like they should. If they start acting like shit I believe it is only right to be able to tell them that they being wrong. And some seniors actually believe this too. And I respect them for having a wider perception.
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Does this mean my little brother looks up to me only because I'm older than he is and not because I forever spoil him and treat him like my little baby brother even though he's not a baby anymore? 
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On April 10 2012 14:20 Gummy wrote:Does this mean my little brother looks up to me only because I'm older than he is and not because I forever spoil him and treat him like my little baby brother even though he's not a baby anymore?
No, because you have earned his respect, but in the sametime if he did anything wrong, it is only reasonable for you to guide him, and correct him.
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On April 10 2012 14:16 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 13:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 10 2012 11:52 Xiphos wrote:On April 10 2012 11:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:
This is one of the reason why people talking about "Korean respect" in terms of SC2 bothers me. Most of them try to put the Korean culture on some kind of pedestal, and pretend that it's some gold standard that everyone should aspire to.
What they don't really realize, though, is that much of Asian culture is about ingrained respect. Not true respect, in that people are empathetic and genuinely want to get along with everyone else. It's that they've been trained to bow their head, act polite, and to "know their role" in society, so to speak. People older than you are above you, people with a higher company position are above you, etc. which results in a lot of two-faced nature.
Not to say that the Western attitudes are better. They're different, and extremely contrasting, and if I had to generalize, Western upbringing is much better for the individual, and Asian upbringing is better for the community. Idk man, as a Chinese, our history is not anything at all like the Korean one. In China, it is "everyone for themselves". They don't care how old you are, people are going to treat you like shit. Its only the Korean culture and maybe the Japanese one. It used to be prevalent in China as well...I mean, heck, the Emperor was basically the absolute extreme example of "ingrained respect". That mentality has faded though, unlike other oriental regions, for reasons I'm not nearly researched enough to guess at. Earlier exposure to western trade, maybe as the result of the dictatorship...who knows. Actually it was part of chinese culture as well, but it has been in a steady decline. Not just this but other good practices that Chinese culture used to encourage are gone from the majority mind set, it's sad to be honest. I don't know what caused, but I bet Mao Zedong was part of the problem with his stupid culture revolution.
From what I've read in this thread, there's nothing good about it.
Don't want to bring politics into this, but blindly respecting government leaders isn't doing your country a whole lot of good.
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On April 10 2012 14:28 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:16 furymonkey wrote:On April 10 2012 13:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 10 2012 11:52 Xiphos wrote:On April 10 2012 11:32 WolfintheSheep wrote:
This is one of the reason why people talking about "Korean respect" in terms of SC2 bothers me. Most of them try to put the Korean culture on some kind of pedestal, and pretend that it's some gold standard that everyone should aspire to.
What they don't really realize, though, is that much of Asian culture is about ingrained respect. Not true respect, in that people are empathetic and genuinely want to get along with everyone else. It's that they've been trained to bow their head, act polite, and to "know their role" in society, so to speak. People older than you are above you, people with a higher company position are above you, etc. which results in a lot of two-faced nature.
Not to say that the Western attitudes are better. They're different, and extremely contrasting, and if I had to generalize, Western upbringing is much better for the individual, and Asian upbringing is better for the community. Idk man, as a Chinese, our history is not anything at all like the Korean one. In China, it is "everyone for themselves". They don't care how old you are, people are going to treat you like shit. Its only the Korean culture and maybe the Japanese one. It used to be prevalent in China as well...I mean, heck, the Emperor was basically the absolute extreme example of "ingrained respect". That mentality has faded though, unlike other oriental regions, for reasons I'm not nearly researched enough to guess at. Earlier exposure to western trade, maybe as the result of the dictatorship...who knows. Actually it was part of chinese culture as well, but it has been in a steady decline. Not just this but other good practices that Chinese culture used to encourage are gone from the majority mind set, it's sad to be honest. I don't know what caused, but I bet Mao Zedong was part of the problem with his stupid culture revolution. From what I've read in this thread, there's nothing good about it.
Good or not it's upto personal opinion, and I'm talking about how some practice like given seats to elderly ect.
On April 10 2012 14:28 Azarkon wrote:
Don't want to bring politics into this, but blindly respecting government leaders isn't doing your country a whole lot of good.
You don't say?
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1019 Posts
I'm familiar with the korean culture of age ranking, and I just want to say to the OP that you've probably been hanging out with the wrong group of people. Koreans usually don't abuse the authority that comes with being older in such social settings. The senior/junior relationship is supposed to be lively. And this might not be relevant but girls are a lot less likely to use age to bully others. So hang out with older girls if you would like to get away from situations like the one you described.
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On April 10 2012 14:17 spkim1 wrote:
I believe that, no matter what your parents did to you, at the bottom of the line they fed you, raised you, and loved you, cared and lived for you. Just from this, we are deeply indebted to them and have an obligation to be by their side and support them until the very end, if you have the tiniest dust of gratitude, that is. This is the reason why such aspects of this "respecting the elder" notion is so beautiful and why I want to follow it.
Not even you believe that, so why would you say it?
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On April 10 2012 14:17 spkim1 wrote:
There is a social pressure that kind of anchors every person's behaviour in Korea, making it a unified crowd. And within that anchor is the respect for the seniors; people frown at you if you don't. I believe this is the best way of keeping it working without giving too much power to the seniors. If someone defies this law, he or she will just become a social outcast. This means that seniors do not need to inflict any kind of additional punishment (physical, for example). This is not a gang, nor is it the military. Keep military training within barrack confines, for the soldiers. We are citizen.
Moreover, respecting the elder should work only as long as the seniors act like they should. If they start acting like shit I believe it is only right to be able to tell them that they being wrong. And some seniors actually believe this too. And I respect them for having a wider perception.
I understand (and agree with to a certain extent) the logic behind the idea that people have a responsibility to care for and support their own parents as they get older , but why would this type of respect apply to all seniors? How is it fair that older people are given these social privileges/powers regardless of their actions, words, or accomplishments. It just seems completely unjustifiable to me that in a social situation some people are given positions of power over others based solely on age.
It makes much more sense to me to have social privleges based on the merits of individuals rather than placement in arbitrary groups. Perhaps an age based heirarchy system promotes social order of some sort, but is that order truly worth the inherant injustice of the system? I don't intend to bash Asian culture. I am just legitimately curious as to how this kind of heirarchy can be justified.
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On April 10 2012 14:49 MethodSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:17 spkim1 wrote:
I believe that, no matter what your parents did to you, at the bottom of the line they fed you, raised you, and loved you, cared and lived for you. Just from this, we are deeply indebted to them and have an obligation to be by their side and support them until the very end, if you have the tiniest dust of gratitude, that is. This is the reason why such aspects of this "respecting the elder" notion is so beautiful and why I want to follow it.
Not even you believe that, so why would you say it?
Unfortunately he isn't the only one.
Some family members of mine have been treated badly (read: treated as trash) by their parents and elder family members and it's worse than what OP has experienced and they are still standing by their family.
It's deeply rooted in the culture of my (Vietnamese) family that most will abide by the elders no matter what (crazy I know).
I've actually told my parents that whenever they do something stupid to me I'd cut ties with them and walk out of the door right away.
On the other hand if the parents didn't do anything and the child doesn't take care of them then he's like OP and others mentioned cut from family ties or for a simpler word trash (don't know the exact translation from Vietnamese to English).
So yes OP does believe what he said and most of my family members as well (I only up till a certain point).
Edit:
Parents actually expect their children to take care of them as well. So it's not like the children come up with it themselves. My parents have told me a million times to take care of them when they get older.
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On April 10 2012 13:46 zEnVy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:34 danl9rm wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what happened in your situation. It was hard to follow.
But, it's not "superiority," it's respect. And you should always respect your elders. They've been around for longer than we have (obviously). That being said, however, 1 Timothy 4:12 says, "Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example..."
People all over the world with all kinds of power will and have been abusing that power for, almost, ever. Where this is power, there is someone abusing it. That doesn't mean you charge in to work tomorrow and headbutt your boss because he deserves it. That also doesn't mean you start disrespecting your elders because they don't deserve your respect. This would not only make them wrong, but you as well. What''s so special about being on this planet longer than somebody else? Did you just quote a bible verse when engaging in logical debate. Really?
Had he not stated that it had come from the bible, would you have known the difference? Just because it's from a religious text does not mean it is neither relevant nor incorrect. Don't base its merit on superficial things, and you are never in the right solely on the fact that you believe someone else is wrong.
That being said, someone who has been around long enough has likely experienced more than you. This means that they just might know better, even if it doesn't appear it. If you don't respect them, then you'll likely not listen or pay attention to them. If you have probable reason not to believe that they do or that they may be misleading you because they are not as wise as you might have though, then feel free to disregard them.
That being said, these older men clearly showed their inability to assess and deal with a situation. They are not wise and therefore not worthy of respect. Of course, I would still be cautious, since they might not care if you respect them or not and could kick your ass if you try to intervene.
EDIT: I didn't want to repost, but to the post below. I agree. It is not a one sided thing. In fact, the older person is at times subservient to the younger person. If two people go out to dinner, it is customary for the older person to pay for the younger. The concept is that the older person will take care of the younger, so long as the younger respects the older. In the case for parents, the parent will care for and nurture the child, so that the child in turn will take care of the parent when the parent is too old to care for himself. And this does not mean that the child will do this as a result of involuntary requirement, but because the child RESPECTS his or her parents. Respect, in my opinion, is not something set in stone and varies by relation and by person.
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1019 Posts
On April 10 2012 14:52 xOchievax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:17 spkim1 wrote:
There is a social pressure that kind of anchors every person's behaviour in Korea, making it a unified crowd. And within that anchor is the respect for the seniors; people frown at you if you don't. I believe this is the best way of keeping it working without giving too much power to the seniors. If someone defies this law, he or she will just become a social outcast. This means that seniors do not need to inflict any kind of additional punishment (physical, for example). This is not a gang, nor is it the military. Keep military training within barrack confines, for the soldiers. We are citizen.
Moreover, respecting the elder should work only as long as the seniors act like they should. If they start acting like shit I believe it is only right to be able to tell them that they being wrong. And some seniors actually believe this too. And I respect them for having a wider perception. I understand (and agree with to a certain extent) the logic behind the idea that people have a responsibility to care for and support their own parents as they get older , but why would this type of respect apply to all seniors? How is it fair that older people are given these social privileges/powers regardless of their actions, words, or accomplishments. It just seems completely unjustifiable to me that in a social situation some people are given positions of power over others based solely on age. It makes much more sense to me to have social privleges based on the merits of individuals rather than placement in arbitrary groups. Perhaps an age based heirarchy system promotes social order of some sort, but is that order truly worth the inherant injustice of the system? I don't intend to bash Asian culture. I am just legitimately curious as to how this kind of heirarchy can be justified.
Guys!!! It's not as bad as you think it might be!! It's not the situation where the oldest guy sits around telling everyone what to do like they are servants or something. That's just an imagination you might think in your head. There are many pros about this kind of culture. It's not necessarily "respect" as in "I respect this guy simply because he's older than me"; it's more like you just fall in line behind them because they are percieved to be the leader or the head. You don't have to personally respect or like a senior simply because he's older. I certainly don't. You just lower yourself a little bit and put on a little air of being submissive to them.
It's totally different from the west with the way you subliminally shift the way you act depending on who you are with.
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In my opinion, if one adult gets physically violent with another adult, the victim should have the right to file an assault charge with the police, no matter what the intentions or age of the aggressor.
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On April 10 2012 15:06 shannn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:49 MethodSC wrote:On April 10 2012 14:17 spkim1 wrote:
I believe that, no matter what your parents did to you, at the bottom of the line they fed you, raised you, and loved you, cared and lived for you. Just from this, we are deeply indebted to them and have an obligation to be by their side and support them until the very end, if you have the tiniest dust of gratitude, that is. This is the reason why such aspects of this "respecting the elder" notion is so beautiful and why I want to follow it.
Not even you believe that, so why would you say it? Unfortunately he isn't the only one. Some family members of mine have been treated badly (read: treated as trash) by their parents and elder family members and it's worse than what OP has experienced and they are still standing by their family. It's deeply rooted in the culture of my (Vietnamese) family that most will abide by the elders no matter what (crazy I know). I've actually told my parents that whenever they do something stupid to me I'd cut ties with them and walk out of the door right away. On the other hand if the parents didn't do anything and the child doesn't take care of them then he's like OP and others mentioned cut from family ties or for a simpler word trash (don't know the exact translation from Vietnamese to English). So yes OP does believe what he said and most of my family members as well (I only up till a certain point). Edit: Parents actually expect their children to take care of them as well. So it's not like the children come up with it themselves. My parents have told me a million times to take care of them when they get older.
Thank you for supporting my point.
I don't see where he came from when he said I didn't believe it myself.
I grew up receiving lots of love albeit difficult family situations.
And I intend to FULLY support any and all member of my family until the very end.
Because I feel grateful for all the love and care and support I receive from them, I will always feel indebted to them.
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Being indebted to your own family is one thing, but respecting random strangers because they have wrinkles is ridiculous.
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I think people take "respect the elder" too literally. Respect is different to obeying command. It just means that you show your good mannerism to the elder. For example, when you talk to your friend, you can talk and listen to music at the same time, but when the elder talks to you, you should turn the *@#$ music down/off and listen to what he is saying. You give it a thought, but it doesn't mean you need to do what he says. When you disagree with them, you deny/decline in respectful manner, not shout to their faces that they are wrong. Also depending on the culture, walking away/ignoring may or may not be seen as disrespectful, but a manner to show your disagreement in peaceful way.
And about why Asian and Westerners have different view. There were research and essays talk about it. Generally, asian history is about the agriculture society.
- Experience in certain fields can be gained by teaching from generation to generation, so most of the time, stuffs you learn are most likely not from google, but from your family, masters, teachers, who happen to have very free time to teach you because, well, they are old and can't work anymore.
- A lot of people worship ancestors, so it's naturally that you have to respect your elders, since Confucius said so...
- Kings/Emperors also promote the idea to respect the elders to young people so that they can sit their ass on thrones at ease because elders are those who are least rebellious, and if the kids are taught by them, they also have less thoughts about demanding and rebel.
- Some other randoms reasons that I don't remember.
You sometimes need to put yourself in the elders' perspective. For example in some post above, the Korean woman call somebody's wife a slut because she marries to an American. That was because in her experience, most or all Korean women at her old-day time that marries non-Korean were sluts/money diggers/opportunist. In this case she was wrong, but I can assure you that even now, 7,8 out of 10 cases of Asian girl marrying American, what she said is true.
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On April 10 2012 15:48 spkim1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 15:06 shannn wrote:On April 10 2012 14:49 MethodSC wrote:On April 10 2012 14:17 spkim1 wrote:
I believe that, no matter what your parents did to you, at the bottom of the line they fed you, raised you, and loved you, cared and lived for you. Just from this, we are deeply indebted to them and have an obligation to be by their side and support them until the very end, if you have the tiniest dust of gratitude, that is. This is the reason why such aspects of this "respecting the elder" notion is so beautiful and why I want to follow it.
Not even you believe that, so why would you say it? Unfortunately he isn't the only one. Some family members of mine have been treated badly (read: treated as trash) by their parents and elder family members and it's worse than what OP has experienced and they are still standing by their family. It's deeply rooted in the culture of my (Vietnamese) family that most will abide by the elders no matter what (crazy I know). I've actually told my parents that whenever they do something stupid to me I'd cut ties with them and walk out of the door right away. On the other hand if the parents didn't do anything and the child doesn't take care of them then he's like OP and others mentioned cut from family ties or for a simpler word trash (don't know the exact translation from Vietnamese to English). So yes OP does believe what he said and most of my family members as well (I only up till a certain point). Edit: Parents actually expect their children to take care of them as well. So it's not like the children come up with it themselves. My parents have told me a million times to take care of them when they get older. Thank you for supporting my point. I don't see where he came from when he said I didn't believe it myself. I grew up receiving lots of love albeit difficult family situations. And I intend to FULLY support any and all member of my family until the very end. Because I feel grateful for all the love and care and support I receive from them, I will always feel indebted to them.
Do you just not know anyone or know of anyone that had a terrifying childhood that will affect them negatively for the rest of their lives?
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a bitchslap is not an abuse, just saying. offended much?
respct your elders had the premise that older guys are wiser since they've passed through all kinds of life related stuff. evolutionary wise it's sound but since we stopped evolving it lost it's weight (old ppl are not wiser, theyre just old)
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Respect your elders? Try respecting everyone until they give you a reason to change.
What kind of an achievement is age? Congratulations, you didn't get run over by a bus, now you are my superior?
I don't get this dominate, dominatee, relationship that exists in some cultures. Respect your elders is one of those things that just falls apart right away if you truly begin to question it. What if your grandfather was a war criminal and happy about it?
Ooh, but then it is different, then we suddenly begin to judge a person for the content of his character, rather than the wrinkles on his skin.
Finally, to actually tolerate violence and allow yourself to be beaten, or allow others to be beaten, is just revolting. I wouldn't respect anyone that raised a hand to me or any other person if it wasn't their job (like riot police), and I certainly wouldn't let myself be beaten by someone for no other reason than that he is old.
The fact that these things continue to exist, serve as testimony that many people don't think about the world they live in and the rules they follow.
I know people who are older than me, I know people who are younger to me. I don't have the need to dominate or be dominated by any of them. I don't have some twisted need to feel like a mentor to them. If I help them, I help them as their equal.
a bitchslap is not an abuse, just saying. offended much?
It is both physical and mental abuse. You beat someone, and you humiliate them.
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On April 10 2012 15:28 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:52 xOchievax wrote:On April 10 2012 14:17 spkim1 wrote:
There is a social pressure that kind of anchors every person's behaviour in Korea, making it a unified crowd. And within that anchor is the respect for the seniors; people frown at you if you don't. I believe this is the best way of keeping it working without giving too much power to the seniors. If someone defies this law, he or she will just become a social outcast. This means that seniors do not need to inflict any kind of additional punishment (physical, for example). This is not a gang, nor is it the military. Keep military training within barrack confines, for the soldiers. We are citizen.
Moreover, respecting the elder should work only as long as the seniors act like they should. If they start acting like shit I believe it is only right to be able to tell them that they being wrong. And some seniors actually believe this too. And I respect them for having a wider perception. I understand (and agree with to a certain extent) the logic behind the idea that people have a responsibility to care for and support their own parents as they get older , but why would this type of respect apply to all seniors? How is it fair that older people are given these social privileges/powers regardless of their actions, words, or accomplishments. It just seems completely unjustifiable to me that in a social situation some people are given positions of power over others based solely on age. It makes much more sense to me to have social privleges based on the merits of individuals rather than placement in arbitrary groups. Perhaps an age based heirarchy system promotes social order of some sort, but is that order truly worth the inherant injustice of the system? I don't intend to bash Asian culture. I am just legitimately curious as to how this kind of heirarchy can be justified. Guys!!! It's not as bad as you think it might be!! It's not the situation where the oldest guy sits around telling everyone what to do like they are servants or something. That's just an imagination you might think in your head. There are many pros about this kind of culture. It's not necessarily "respect" as in "I respect this guy simply because he's older than me"; it's more like you just fall in line behind them because they are percieved to be the leader or the head. You don't have to personally respect or like a senior simply because he's older. I certainly don't. You just lower yourself a little bit and put on a little air of being submissive to them. It's totally different from the west with the way you subliminally shift the way you act depending on who you are with.
But you see, that's the thing. I also thought it was just a skin-deep thing too.
I enjoyed acting submissive yet jokingly cheeky and sneaky to the hyungs and noonas, being familiar with them and all, until i heard that "no joke" part from the senior guy. So if this is no joke, then it's serious, right ?
And indeed, whacking younger ones in the face doesn't exactly sound like light stuff.
You are right. Many people told me I have been hanging around with the bad people.
Time to change the pool ~
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On April 10 2012 14:17 spkim1 wrote:
OK, I've been reading the posts so far.
One thing that cleared me up is the difference between respecting "willingly" and "forcefully".
It is true that in western culture some people abandon their parents when they become self-sustainable.
In Korea, such actions are seen as disgusting, and the person is seen as a "garbage child" (후례자식).
I believe that, no matter what your parents did to you, at the bottom of the line they fed you, raised you, and loved you, cared and lived for you. Just from this, we are deeply indebted to them and have an obligation to be by their side and support them until the very end, if you have the tiniest dust of gratitude, that is. This is the reason why such aspects of this "respecting the elder" notion is so beautiful and why I want to follow it.
There is a social pressure that kind of anchors every person's behaviour in Korea, making it a unified crowd. And within that anchor is the respect for the seniors; people frown at you if you don't. I believe this is the best way of keeping it working without giving too much power to the seniors. If someone defies this law, he or she will just become a social outcast. This means that seniors do not need to inflict any kind of additional punishment (physical, for example). This is not a gang, nor is it the military. Keep military training within barrack confines, for the soldiers. We are citizen.
Moreover, respecting the elder should work only as long as the seniors act like they should. If they start acting like shit I believe it is only right to be able to tell them that they being wrong. And some seniors actually believe this too. And I respect them for having a wider perception.
This view is fundamentally different from how I feel family relationships should work. As a child it is absolutely true that a certain level of respect and submission is called for due to the chaotic nature of a child's ignorance but as a child develops into an adult man or woman I believe the relationship also has to develop from a hierarchy to a relationship between peers. I dont believe that your parents providing material goods and a whatever type of family life, entitles them to some special status. Instead I feel that the obligation derived from this is to provide for the next generation. You pay your parents back by drawing on your experience and learning from their mistakes in your procreative endeavors and child rearing. Apart from this, I dont feel an adult parent/child relationship should enjoy any privileges beyond any other long term relationships (ie. they are not permanent or unconditional).
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On April 10 2012 16:02 MethodSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 15:48 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 15:06 shannn wrote:On April 10 2012 14:49 MethodSC wrote:On April 10 2012 14:17 spkim1 wrote:
I believe that, no matter what your parents did to you, at the bottom of the line they fed you, raised you, and loved you, cared and lived for you. Just from this, we are deeply indebted to them and have an obligation to be by their side and support them until the very end, if you have the tiniest dust of gratitude, that is. This is the reason why such aspects of this "respecting the elder" notion is so beautiful and why I want to follow it.
Not even you believe that, so why would you say it? Unfortunately he isn't the only one. Some family members of mine have been treated badly (read: treated as trash) by their parents and elder family members and it's worse than what OP has experienced and they are still standing by their family. It's deeply rooted in the culture of my (Vietnamese) family that most will abide by the elders no matter what (crazy I know). I've actually told my parents that whenever they do something stupid to me I'd cut ties with them and walk out of the door right away. On the other hand if the parents didn't do anything and the child doesn't take care of them then he's like OP and others mentioned cut from family ties or for a simpler word trash (don't know the exact translation from Vietnamese to English). So yes OP does believe what he said and most of my family members as well (I only up till a certain point). Edit: Parents actually expect their children to take care of them as well. So it's not like the children come up with it themselves. My parents have told me a million times to take care of them when they get older. Thank you for supporting my point. I don't see where he came from when he said I didn't believe it myself. I grew up receiving lots of love albeit difficult family situations. And I intend to FULLY support any and all member of my family until the very end. Because I feel grateful for all the love and care and support I receive from them, I will always feel indebted to them. Do you just not know anyone or know of anyone that had a terrifying childhood that will affect them negatively for the rest of their lives?
You're right, I don't personally.
I've heard of horrific stories, though. And I don't want to tell people who experienced such things to support their parents. However, (although I have no rights to say this as I never experienced such situations), I'm positive those peope will live happier if they CAN forgive their parents, and become the bigger person. It's hard, I know, but I've also heard of people doing that.
Isn't life more beautiful if everyone is more forgiving ? Besides, that's one trait older persons should do to the young ones, too; if they know more, then they should know that ignorance can lead to mistakes. If a younger person can forgive the older, then that is an achievement in itself.
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On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation right after he was talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure he knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation.
Bullshit.
I've seen my Korean friends fucked with simply because they were younger. There was no reason other than the fact that the older guy could get away with it.
To tell you the truth, I honestly think its only to this extreme in Korean culture. I never saw this shit while I was in Japan, it's never been that emphasized growing up as the youngest son in a Taiwanese family (parents are from Taiwan). And yet I hear about this from Koreans even here in the States. Does anyone have a similar experience?
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On April 10 2012 16:26 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 14:17 spkim1 wrote:
OK, I've been reading the posts so far.
One thing that cleared me up is the difference between respecting "willingly" and "forcefully".
It is true that in western culture some people abandon their parents when they become self-sustainable.
In Korea, such actions are seen as disgusting, and the person is seen as a "garbage child" (후례자식).
I believe that, no matter what your parents did to you, at the bottom of the line they fed you, raised you, and loved you, cared and lived for you. Just from this, we are deeply indebted to them and have an obligation to be by their side and support them until the very end, if you have the tiniest dust of gratitude, that is. This is the reason why such aspects of this "respecting the elder" notion is so beautiful and why I want to follow it.
There is a social pressure that kind of anchors every person's behaviour in Korea, making it a unified crowd. And within that anchor is the respect for the seniors; people frown at you if you don't. I believe this is the best way of keeping it working without giving too much power to the seniors. If someone defies this law, he or she will just become a social outcast. This means that seniors do not need to inflict any kind of additional punishment (physical, for example). This is not a gang, nor is it the military. Keep military training within barrack confines, for the soldiers. We are citizen.
Moreover, respecting the elder should work only as long as the seniors act like they should. If they start acting like shit I believe it is only right to be able to tell them that they being wrong. And some seniors actually believe this too. And I respect them for having a wider perception. This view is fundamentally different from how I feel family relationships should work. As a child it is absolutely true that a certain level of respect and submission is called for due to the chaotic nature of a child's ignorance but as a child develops into an adult man or woman I believe the relationship also has to develop from a hierarchy to a relationship between peers. I dont believe that your parents providing material goods and a whatever type of family life, entitles them to some special status. Instead I feel that the obligation derived from this is to provide for the next generation. You pay your parents back by drawing on your experience and learning from their mistakes in your procreative endeavors and child rearing. Apart from this, I dont feel an adult parent/child relationship should enjoy any privileges beyond any other long term relationships (ie. they are not permanent or unconditional).
Your parents are humans too, and they love you as their child. I would be surprised if they do not get disappointed if they did not see reciprocated feelings from you to them. And if you love them, frankly, you don't just leave them. You keep the contact alive and do nice things for them. That is my belief anyway.
Maybe love burrowed deep inside can be felt too, but I like to express myself, and usually people catch it better and appreciate it.
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On April 10 2012 15:55 canikizu wrote:
I think people take "respect the elder" too literally. Respect is different to obeying command. It just means that you show your good mannerism to the elder. For example, when you talk to your friend, you can talk and listen to music at the same time, but when the elder talks to you, you should turn the *@#$ music down/off and listen to what he is saying. You give it a thought, but it doesn't mean you need to do what he says. When you disagree with them, you deny/decline in respectful manner, not shout to their faces that they are wrong. Also depending on the culture, walking away/ignoring may or may not be seen as disrespectful, but a manner to show your disagreement in peaceful way.
And about why Asian and Westerners have different view. There were research and essays talk about it. Generally, asian history is about the agriculture society.
- Experience in certain fields can be gained by teaching from generation to generation, so most of the time, stuffs you learn are most likely not from google, but from your family, masters, teachers, who happen to have very free time to teach you because, well, they are old and can't work anymore.
- A lot of people worship ancestors, so it's naturally that you have to respect your elders, since Confucius said so...
- Kings/Emperors also promote the idea to respect the elders to young people so that they can sit their ass on thrones at ease because elders are those who are least rebellious, and if the kids are taught by them, they also have less thoughts about demanding and rebel.
- Some other randoms reasons that I don't remember.
You sometimes need to put yourself in the elders' perspective. For example in some post above, the Korean woman call somebody's wife a slut because she marries to an American. That was because in her experience, most or all Korean women at her old-day time that marries non-Korean were sluts/money diggers/opportunist. In this case she was wrong, but I can assure you that even now, 7,8 out of 10 cases of Asian girl marrying American, what she said is true.
I think, particularly in the case of Korean women, the "slut" thing isn't about money, it's about not marrying within the race, which muddies bloodlines. Historically, women from many different cultures were encouraged to marry, or simply married off specifically to rich people because it meant that they would be able to better provide wealth and status for their families, including their parents.
I don't even know what to make of your comment about Asian girls marrying Americans for their money. Judging from past threads on TL, there seems to be this pervasive attitude that all women are golddiggers, whether they do it consciously or not, which seems a tad ... narrowminded ... and when you consider the fact that there is a significant population of "Asian" men who are richer than white men, it doesn't really make sense. If anything, I would say it would be to get a visa/residency, because living in America or another Western country, with its capitalist liberties, is attractive, or because Western culture treats women differently (generally, more liberally) than Asian cultures traditionally have, so it would be advantage to be accepted into that culture via marriage.
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On April 10 2012 16:28 spkim1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 16:02 MethodSC wrote:On April 10 2012 15:48 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 15:06 shannn wrote:On April 10 2012 14:49 MethodSC wrote:On April 10 2012 14:17 spkim1 wrote:
I believe that, no matter what your parents did to you, at the bottom of the line they fed you, raised you, and loved you, cared and lived for you. Just from this, we are deeply indebted to them and have an obligation to be by their side and support them until the very end, if you have the tiniest dust of gratitude, that is. This is the reason why such aspects of this "respecting the elder" notion is so beautiful and why I want to follow it.
Not even you believe that, so why would you say it? Unfortunately he isn't the only one. Some family members of mine have been treated badly (read: treated as trash) by their parents and elder family members and it's worse than what OP has experienced and they are still standing by their family. It's deeply rooted in the culture of my (Vietnamese) family that most will abide by the elders no matter what (crazy I know). I've actually told my parents that whenever they do something stupid to me I'd cut ties with them and walk out of the door right away. On the other hand if the parents didn't do anything and the child doesn't take care of them then he's like OP and others mentioned cut from family ties or for a simpler word trash (don't know the exact translation from Vietnamese to English). So yes OP does believe what he said and most of my family members as well (I only up till a certain point). Edit: Parents actually expect their children to take care of them as well. So it's not like the children come up with it themselves. My parents have told me a million times to take care of them when they get older. Thank you for supporting my point. I don't see where he came from when he said I didn't believe it myself. I grew up receiving lots of love albeit difficult family situations. And I intend to FULLY support any and all member of my family until the very end. Because I feel grateful for all the love and care and support I receive from them, I will always feel indebted to them. Do you just not know anyone or know of anyone that had a terrifying childhood that will affect them negatively for the rest of their lives? You're right, I don't personally. I've heard of horrific stories, though. And I don't want to tell people who experienced such things to support their parents. However, (although I have no rights to say this as I never experienced such situations), I'm positive those peope will live happier if they CAN forgive their parents, and become the bigger person. It's hard, I know, but I've also heard of people doing that. Isn't life more beautiful if everyone is more forgiving ? Besides, that's one trait older persons should do to the young ones, too; if they know more, then they should know that ignorance can lead to mistakes. If a younger person can forgive the older, then that is an achievement in itself.
The only people that deserve forgiveness are those that know they did something wrong. If your parents were raised horribly and they raised you horribly they probably think nothing is wrong with the way things were handled, leading them to not even acknowledging the fact that they need to show you how wrong they were. So no, I would never forgive someone that didn't even have the intelligence to realize their mistakes and try to make up for them. I certainly wouldn't forgive someone too bullheaded to admit their mistakes either. And if I was in the position where my parents did that to me, I wouldn't care less to forgive them, because they would mean nothing to me. People are people. Live equal.
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I met some Korean girls my flatmate knew from a langauge school in Australia on my Korea trip.
First question one of them asked: "How old are you?".
That felt really weird to me because it was totally off topic at that time. Well, I guess she needed to know if I'm older/how much to feel more comfortable... But alone the question felt really weird to me because Age here is probably the last thing you ask someone directly (well, it's ok for men... I wouldn't recommend it when trying to make contact with woman ).
I get respecting "Elders"... When they are like 20-30 years older and not obvious idiots ^^.
I don't get the respecting "olders".. When they are only like 1-10 years older/same agerange if they don't deserve it...
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On April 10 2012 16:31 spkim1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 16:26 Velocirapture wrote:On April 10 2012 14:17 spkim1 wrote:
OK, I've been reading the posts so far.
One thing that cleared me up is the difference between respecting "willingly" and "forcefully".
It is true that in western culture some people abandon their parents when they become self-sustainable.
In Korea, such actions are seen as disgusting, and the person is seen as a "garbage child" (후례자식).
I believe that, no matter what your parents did to you, at the bottom of the line they fed you, raised you, and loved you, cared and lived for you. Just from this, we are deeply indebted to them and have an obligation to be by their side and support them until the very end, if you have the tiniest dust of gratitude, that is. This is the reason why such aspects of this "respecting the elder" notion is so beautiful and why I want to follow it.
There is a social pressure that kind of anchors every person's behaviour in Korea, making it a unified crowd. And within that anchor is the respect for the seniors; people frown at you if you don't. I believe this is the best way of keeping it working without giving too much power to the seniors. If someone defies this law, he or she will just become a social outcast. This means that seniors do not need to inflict any kind of additional punishment (physical, for example). This is not a gang, nor is it the military. Keep military training within barrack confines, for the soldiers. We are citizen.
Moreover, respecting the elder should work only as long as the seniors act like they should. If they start acting like shit I believe it is only right to be able to tell them that they being wrong. And some seniors actually believe this too. And I respect them for having a wider perception. This view is fundamentally different from how I feel family relationships should work. As a child it is absolutely true that a certain level of respect and submission is called for due to the chaotic nature of a child's ignorance but as a child develops into an adult man or woman I believe the relationship also has to develop from a hierarchy to a relationship between peers. I dont believe that your parents providing material goods and a whatever type of family life, entitles them to some special status. Instead I feel that the obligation derived from this is to provide for the next generation. You pay your parents back by drawing on your experience and learning from their mistakes in your procreative endeavors and child rearing. Apart from this, I dont feel an adult parent/child relationship should enjoy any privileges beyond any other long term relationships (ie. they are not permanent or unconditional). Your parents are humans too, and they love you as their child. I would be surprised if they do not get disappointed if they did not see reciprocated feelings from you to them. And if you love them, frankly, you don't just leave them. You keep the contact alive and do nice things for them. That is my belief anyway. Maybe love burrowed deep inside can be felt too, but I like to express myself, and usually people catch it better and appreciate it.
This shows a complete misunderstanding of what I wrote. I absolutely believe that when you love somebody you express it and live accordingly. That is how people should treat ALL of their relationships. The only thing I argue against is the notion that an adult has to afford his/her parents some sort of special privilege. That their decision to have a child and take responsibility for that decision somehow exempts them from the standards we hold every other relationship to.
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1019 Posts
On April 10 2012 16:28 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation right after he was talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure he knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation. Bullshit. I've seen my Korean friends fucked with simply because they were younger. There was no reason other than the fact that the older guy could get away with it. To tell you the truth, I honestly think its only to this extreme in Korean culture. I never saw this shit while I was in Japan, it's never been that emphasized growing up as the youngest son in a Taiwanese family (parents are from Taiwan). And yet I hear about this from Koreans even here in the States. Does anyone have a similar experience?
Like I said, its probably a case of hanging out with a certain segment of people (usually guys) who have been heavily influenced by korean gangster culture or korean army culture, which often operate similarly to the idea of "getting screwed simply because you are younger". People usually don't go around abusing their juniors or taking advantage of them in korean society. It definitely exists to a certain extent but usually not in such extreme ways (getting bullied, taken advantage of, etc). You guys are giving westerners in this thread the wrong impression of korean culture.
Also, to everyone else talking about whether to respect parents who are abusive or whatever, the OP subject is something totally different. When we're talking about "seniors" and "juniors" here, we're not talking about a 17 year old kid and a 53 year old man. We're looking at the relationships between people of similar ages - age seniority applies to people of every age in korean society and in this case it is between I assume people in their 20s. Theres absolutely no doubt that in all cultures (western or asian) that respect is generally given to old people and senior citizens (unless they are fucking douchebags of course).
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On April 10 2012 16:40 Velr wrote:I met some Korean girls my flatmate knew from a langauge school in Australia on my Korea trip. First question one of them asked: "How old are you?". That felt really weird to me because it was totally off topic at that time. Well, I guess she needed to know if I'm older/how much to feel more comfortable... But alone the question felt really weird to me because Age here is probably the last thing you ask someone directly (well, it's ok for men... I wouldn't recommend it when trying to make contact with woman ). I get respecting "Elders"... When they are like 20-30 years older and not obvious idiots ^^. I don't get the respecting "olders".. When they are only like 1-10 years older/same agerange if they don't deserve it...
I'm pretty sure they ask that first to know if they should (if they're younger) be more respectful to you or (if they're older) for them to relax and speak normally since they're older. Either way I think it's a mixture between that and curiosity.
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This cultural thing is inbred even in the language. However, I think it's good to give respect to the elders. For the most time it's just that, respect. Not total subservience. Some elders think respect = total obedience and don't draw a line and some younger people will comply with that "norm".
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On April 10 2012 08:58 firehand101 wrote:
I think the korean culture got it right. I think its only fair the older you are the more respect you gain. I do agree that sometimes its abused but on the whole i think its very efficient at maintaining a respectful and emotive society
I think death penalty got it right. I think its only fair the more murderous you are the less right of living you got. I do agree that sometimes accidently innocent people are killed but on the whole i think its very efficient at maintaining a righteous and emotive society.
I think the western countries got it right. I think its only fair the more exploitation of third world countries the more wealth for us. I do agree that sometimes it sucks when african children die but on the whole i think its very efficient at maintaining an profitable and working economy.
I admit..made up out of thin air...but u get my point
(tbh i somehow even agree with u, but i feel like its wrong)
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LOL what kind of fucked up friends do you hang out with? Better drop them fuckers before you get involved in stupidity yourself
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On April 10 2012 16:28 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation right after he was talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure he knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation. Bullshit. I've seen my Korean friends fucked with simply because they were younger. There was no reason other than the fact that the older guy could get away with it. To tell you the truth, I honestly think its only to this extreme in Korean culture. I never saw this shit while I was in Japan, it's never been that emphasized growing up as the youngest son in a Taiwanese family (parents are from Taiwan). And yet I hear about this from Koreans even here in the States. Does anyone have a similar experience?
Right.
In a way this is how a part of me felt, in a more suppressed, weaker way.
I thought this was a load of bullshit of an excuse to whack younger ones.
Whatever the reason slapping the face of an outside person (not within family) is unforgivable.
끈끈한 선후배의 우정 사이라고 ? (Strongly-bonded friendship relation between seniors and juniors ?)
웃기고 있네. 멍멍 ! ㄲㄲ (sounds like dog barks)
조금만 더 우정 쌓다간 이빨 날라가겠다 ㅆㅂ (More friendship and you'll end up with no teeth)
Is what I thought in my head.
Then again, a part of me said to just let this whole business go, because it's really got nothing to do with me as long as he doesn't try his crap on me. This is why I was considering leaving this whole circle completely, because it just looked too silly to remain any more. And I see many people share my thinking in this forum.
Nevertheless, I want to clarify that not all Koreans are like this, and others are really awesome !
I'll try and join a cool group and blend in as one of their awesome members !
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On April 10 2012 16:28 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation right after he was talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure he knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation. Bullshit. I've seen my Korean friends fucked with simply because they were younger. There was no reason other than the fact that the older guy could get away with it. To tell you the truth, I honestly think its only to this extreme in Korean culture. I never saw this shit while I was in Japan, it's never been that emphasized growing up as the youngest son in a Taiwanese family (parents are from Taiwan). And yet I hear about this from Koreans even here in the States. Does anyone have a similar experience?
I never denied that a senior will fuck with his junior just because he can. It happens and in some cases a lot but there are also people who don't. I never claimed that this was the case for the op. The thing is none of us were there when this happened except for the op, so we have only his word. The situation he described could be just a case of seniors just fucking with their juniors but there are times when it isn't.
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On April 10 2012 15:53 Meta wrote:
Being indebted to your own family is one thing, but respecting random strangers because they have wrinkles is ridiculous.
I just can't help but think your tune would change if you were older.
Call me assuming, but in order to argue, I'm going to allow myself to [assume]. Most people that can't find the merit in respecting elders are not only generally young, but have a chip on their shoulders as to why elders don't deserve respect. That is not only my experience, but still a generalization and assumption.
So, instead of always imagining being the youth in the situation, place yourself as the elder.
Have you ever babsat (is that a word?) before? Have you ever had a 3 yr old kid spit in your face because he/she didn't want to listen to what you said? You might say it didn't cross your mind, but I wouldn't believe it if you said the thought, "What a little brat." never passed.
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On April 10 2012 20:29 spkim1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 16:28 Supamang wrote:On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation right after he was talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure he knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation. Bullshit. I've seen my Korean friends fucked with simply because they were younger. There was no reason other than the fact that the older guy could get away with it. To tell you the truth, I honestly think its only to this extreme in Korean culture. I never saw this shit while I was in Japan, it's never been that emphasized growing up as the youngest son in a Taiwanese family (parents are from Taiwan). And yet I hear about this from Koreans even here in the States. Does anyone have a similar experience? Right. In a way this is how a part of me felt, in a more suppressed, weaker way. I thought this was a load of bullshit of an excuse to whack younger ones. Whatever the reason slapping the face of an outside person (not within family) is unforgivable.끈끈한 선후배의 우정 사이라고 ? (Strongly-bonded friendship relation between seniors and juniors ?) 웃기고 있네. 멍멍 ! ㄲㄲ (sounds like dog barks) 조금만 더 우정 쌓다간 이빨 날라가겠다 ㅆㅂ (More friendship and you'll end up with no teeth) Is what I thought in my head. Then again, a part of me said to just let this whole business go, because it's really got nothing to do with me as long as he doesn't try his crap on me. This is why I was considering leaving this whole circle completely, because it just looked too silly to remain any more. And I see many people share my thinking in this forum. Nevertheless, I want to clarify that not all Koreans are like this, and others are really awesome ! I'll try and join a cool group and blend in as one of their awesome members !
Wait..what? So slapping someone IN your family is okay? That is even worse what the f--- only times ever really been slapped is by male friends (i'd slap em back) or by girls (deserved it). If someone in my family slapped me however, the reason better be damn good otherwise it will probably be the last time they see me in a couple of years, i'd pack my bags and leave, really.
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On April 11 2012 05:01 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 15:53 Meta wrote:
Being indebted to your own family is one thing, but respecting random strangers because they have wrinkles is ridiculous. I just can't help but think your tune would change if you were older. Call me assuming, but in order to argue, I'm going to allow myself to [assume]. Most people that can't find the merit in respecting elders are not only generally young, but have a chip on their shoulders as to why elders don't deserve respect. That is not only my experience, but still a generalization and assumption. So, instead of always imagining being the youth in the situation, place yourself as the elder. Have you ever babsat (is that a word?) before? Have you ever had a 3 yr old kid spit in your face because he/she didn't want to listen to what you said? You might say it didn't cross your mind, but I wouldn't believe it if you said the thought, "What a little brat." never passed.
There's a huge difference between expecting a 3 year old child to listen to you and an adult. Or are you implying that the posters against repsecting the elders are 3 years old? Your argument makes no sense.
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That's some crazy shit. In the Western world, we have a reversal in roles sometimes, where seniors are pretty much terrified of younger people. But they do have they entitled moments. Most complainers are old folk. Same with watchdog groups, all old folk. But there's no defined lines as to whom is superior to whom, because it happens on a case by case basis.
That being said, people around my age grew up in the Information Age, and we know a lot more than older generations. Hell, our Grade 9 curriculum now is pretty much what they went off to learn in first-year university. So I think their claims to "knowing more than we do because they are older" is total BS.
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Anyone in a position above you is more likely to push you around than you pushing a senior around. If he sees himself as above you, it can be hard to stop, especially in school, where seniors have been there longer. Naturally they'll think they're the boss, getting push around by younger kids would be such a disgrace to bullies like these.
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Well, the human kind likes power. So whenever we can get power we abuse it. Some abuse it more while some abuse it less but most people still abuse it to some degree.
Like for example someone might punch a younger guy in the gut just because he has the power to do so without giving much reason for it.
On the other hand another guy might just say to a younger guy: Here take this money and go buy me a soda and hurry up.
Both are power abuse.
Ofcourse not everyone abuses power but many do. Im not like that for example. I do ask people for favours sometimes though.
Sadly bullying exists in whatever country you live in and people will always crave power. There will be peace in the world when it no more exists!
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The whole hierarchy thing is from Confucian views on relationships; filial piety, brotherly love; etc. It's weird, because you'd think that these things would die out (Confucianism as a doctrine eventually relented and gave way to Christianity and various Buddhism sects toward the 18th century and moreso during the 19th and 20th centuries as Korea became modernized), but they still exist.
I don't exactly agree with what the sunbae did, but what I would've done is ask if everyone was alright (because 'drunk' might have seemed offensive to the other party at the time) as connotation and word choice is important in these scenarios. I have to face this on a daily basis; I really want to talk casually to my parents and older relatives like my friends do with their families but it's like playing on a minefield.
Edit:
However, whenever a hoobae comes to me and calls me 'hyung' or 'oppa', I tell them to stop it because it makes me feel uncomfortable (okay, half true; the girls can continue calling me 'oppa')
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On April 11 2012 05:01 danl9rm wrote:
Have you ever babsat (is that a word?) before? Have you ever had a 3 yr old kid spit in your face because he/she didn't want to listen to what you said? You might say it didn't cross your mind, but I wouldn't believe it if you said the thought, "What a little brat." never passed.
There is a fundamental difference between the intellectual gap from an adult to a toddler, and the intellectual gap between an older adult and a younger adult. The latter involves two mature entities, while the former does not.
If elderly people think of young adults the way they would 3-year-olds, then that explains a lot as to why they feel entitled to demand unearned respect.
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One guy got murdered because of this age hierarchy thing in the U.S. True story.
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On April 11 2012 07:18 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 05:01 danl9rm wrote:
Have you ever babsat (is that a word?) before? Have you ever had a 3 yr old kid spit in your face because he/she didn't want to listen to what you said? You might say it didn't cross your mind, but I wouldn't believe it if you said the thought, "What a little brat." never passed. There is a fundamental difference between the intellectual gap from an adult to a toddler, and the intellectual gap between an older adult and a younger adult. The latter involves two mature entities, while the former does not. If elderly people think of young adults the way they would 3-year-olds, then that explains a lot as to why they feel entitled to demand unearned respect.
Exactly! Yes, a three year old need to respect their elders because they don't understand the world well enough to make their own decisions. Once someone is able to understand the world around them and make their own decisions they deserve no less or more respect than anyone else capable of the same things.
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On April 11 2012 07:24 joe_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 07:18 sunprince wrote:On April 11 2012 05:01 danl9rm wrote:
Have you ever babsat (is that a word?) before? Have you ever had a 3 yr old kid spit in your face because he/she didn't want to listen to what you said? You might say it didn't cross your mind, but I wouldn't believe it if you said the thought, "What a little brat." never passed. There is a fundamental difference between the intellectual gap from an adult to a toddler, and the intellectual gap between an older adult and a younger adult. The latter involves two mature entities, while the former does not. If elderly people think of young adults the way they would 3-year-olds, then that explains a lot as to why they feel entitled to demand unearned respect. Exactly! Yes, a three year old need to respect their elders because they don't understand the world well enough to make their own decisions. Once someone is able to understand the world around them and make their own decisions they deserve no less or more respect than anyone else capable of the same things.
Does no one else see the silliness in this? You say a 3-year old should respect his elders because he's too young to understand the world "well enough to make his own decisions," and yet he must make the decision to respect his elders. What the.
If respect was only given to those "capable," there would be very little respect floating around. Should we only respect the people in Gold league and above? What about just diamond+, master+? grandmaster?
Someone is always going to deserve more respect than you. If that means you don't have to respect your "lessers," no one would respect anyone.
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As was to be expected, this has quickly devolved into people tripping over one another to display just how meaningless the word respect is, and how devoid of purpose the word has become in the last five years.
We should take the word and shoot it behind the shed, because it is only being used by12 year olds that demand it, and religious people that can't take a verbal beating.
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Iunno man, socrates was a pariah.
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On April 10 2012 09:13 HaRuHi wrote:
German point of view:
Respect the elder - since when has withering become an accomplishment?
Dieter Nuhr? 
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Discussing a topic ranging over different cultures one has to keep the following in mind, beeing "allowed" (or not) to demand respect for beeing smarter is just what *you* may have grown up with.
Of course there are way better reasons to respect someone:
- he is stronger then me
- she looks good
- he laid more girls
- they are already respected in the social circle someone is entering (sounds familiar?)
- they are (appearing) smarter
...
And that gives the alpha the right to decide which film is gonna be watched tonight, hell finally a sound system
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EPT
