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As a Chinese American, I honestly feel like Americans demand more respect for their elders than Chinese people (this excludes Taiwanese people). Perhaps I just haven't lived enough time in China but from what I've experienced, kids arguing and with parents and talking back is VERY common.
Since I live in a city with a lot of people from Taiwan, I can see that most Taiwanese parents demand much more respect than Chinese ones. Relationships also seem a bit more "forced".
As for Americans, I honestly have gotten in so much trouble in elementary school for "talking back" to teachers. Basically, when the teacher says something factually wrong and I correct them, the teacher rages and writes a letter to my parents saying that I'm a bad student (which I actually am not). I've been risen in an environment where I was taught to talk back if I believe it is right. And I do believe that this system is right.
Age =/= Correctness
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It's an old system that derived from pre-industrial age when many people were farmers and wealth came with time and age. Inheritance was a huge factor to how well off someone was during those times. Now that Korea is a post-industrial nation, those systematic values do not necessarily apply. Though they are not relevant with the times, it's considered honorable to respect the elderly (respecting anyone is pretty universal anyways). It's just an old value system that carried over to the post-industrial age, and it will probably see a great reduction with future generations. You're not strange for thinking that it's "strange" and even "hostile". People of all ages probably feel that way many times (there's always someone older than you), but more so with the younger generation and especially so with those who have multi-cultural background such as yourself.
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People should be judged by their actions, not their age. Ageism is as retarded as racism, sexism, etc.
If those Koreans "seniors" struck an American, they would probably get KTFO.
Old habits die hard I guess.
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On April 10 2012 08:29 drbrown wrote:
Power earned without effort is always wrong, no matter who it belongs to.
This. Old age is too easily achieved to be impressive, and is a reliable indicator only of life experience, not wisdom or insight or competence.
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I'm extremely confused: an elder senior citizen 65+ smacked around a junior (21+)?
If that's the case, I would have fought back. Anyone smacking me, is not portraying their anger or disappointment in the right way. Like i said, I don't understand what junior or senior means in Korean culture. Will someone explain this?
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On April 10 2012 08:58 firehand101 wrote:I think its only fair the older you are the more respect you gain.
Why?
Once upon a time, merely surviving to a ripe old age (or even past childhood) was an accomplishment, but how exactly is mere survival today worthy of respect?
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On April 10 2012 09:22 ranshaked wrote:
I'm extremely confused: an elder senior citizen 65+ smacked around a junior (21+)?
If that's the case, I would have fought back. Anyone smacking me, is not portraying their anger or disappointment in the right way. Like i said, I don't understand what junior or senior means in Korean culture. Will someone explain this?
Senior in this case is just someone you know who is older than you and junior is someone you know who is younger than you. The difference is that its not just any stranger who is older or younger than you but people you actually know.
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On April 10 2012 09:11 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:04 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation when hes talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure He knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation. So I m not allowed to ask him if he s not too drunk ? Him getting a disciplinary session from the seniors is one thing and him apologising to me is another. Why should a conflict started between us be settled by seniors ? If he screwed up before and got slapped then it s fine. But I am the victim here and wanted to settle things with him. I just don't understand how this whole thing works at all ..... Well imagine if you were him. You just got slapped and yelled at. You can settle it with him some other time. In that current situation you should have just stayed quiet. You asking if hes drunk or not makes it seem like you're ignoring what just happened before especially since your seniors were there present. And honestly I think you're overestimating your role here. If he messed up, he would have been the only one getting yelled but you said others were getting it too. That means this is beyond you and that guy now which is why in that situation the best action was to show respect and stay quiet.
I understand your point. I guess the influence of alcohol on me played a part too.
Still, I thought at our age things can be resolved by talking, no ?
Do we have to get so physical, whether we mess up or not ?
Is that the role of a senior ? Parents maybe ? Older brother ? Teacher ? Drill sergeant ?
I don't know ..... I would never slap a junior across the face, no matter how badly he messes up or no matter how much I cherish him. I believe THAT is overestimating my role. He is of age, he can learn from his mistakes without the slaps and beatings.
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On April 10 2012 09:22 ranshaked wrote:
I'm extremely confused: an elder senior citizen 65+ smacked around a junior (21+)?
If that's the case, I would have fought back. Anyone smacking me, is not portraying their anger or disappointment in the right way. Like i said, I don't understand what junior or senior means in Korean culture. Will someone explain this?
In Asian countries, maybe even in some other areas of the world, there is a heirarchy of relationships in many social relationships. For example, when you work at a company, the people who have worked there for longer than you have are technically your "seniors" and those that start working there after you are your "juniors". The seniors would teach the juniors what to do and basically, you are their squire/bitch to learn things from them and do what they ask from you. Now, the relationships between seniors and juniors differs depending on how/where you meet, but that's what it basically is.
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On April 10 2012 09:26 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:22 ranshaked wrote:
I'm extremely confused: an elder senior citizen 65+ smacked around a junior (21+)?
If that's the case, I would have fought back. Anyone smacking me, is not portraying their anger or disappointment in the right way. Like i said, I don't understand what junior or senior means in Korean culture. Will someone explain this? Senior in this case is just someone you know who is older than you and junior is someone you know who is younger than you. The difference is that its not just any stranger who is older or younger than you but people you actually know.
Hmm. I would not appreciate anyone talking down to me or smacking me. A lot of my friends vary in ages from 18-35 and we look at each other as equals. This "age" stuff is weird. I mean, I look up to y grandfather, and I respect him, but there's no way in hell he's going to smack me around
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On April 10 2012 08:25 TotalNightmare wrote:
I think respect must be earned and this goes for everyone. I dont have good information about the korean culture but seriously if someone doesnt act like an adult why would you treat that person so?
Of cause there should ALWAYS be a basic amount of respect to each person but every other bit must be earned, be it through actions in the past (this is the part where being older might come in handy because you had more time) or through actions in the present.
I agree 100%. I never understood this "respect the elderly" they tell you when you are a kid. As you said, respect has to be earned. Should I compliment someone just because he got old? woho, mad props bro
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Respecting someone for their age has always struck me as stupid. Or rather respecting them more BECAUSE of their age.
I've met older people with incredible knowledge and wisdom, and I've met old people full of anger and stupidity. Just like any other situation, you should respect people for the amount of respect they earn through their actions.
That being said, I tend to approach elders under the assumption that they will have something they can teach me. 60,70 years is a long time to be kicking around.
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On April 10 2012 09:26 spkim1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:11 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On April 10 2012 09:04 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation when hes talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure He knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation. So I m not allowed to ask him if he s not too drunk ? Him getting a disciplinary session from the seniors is one thing and him apologising to me is another. Why should a conflict started between us be settled by seniors ? If he screwed up before and got slapped then it s fine. But I am the victim here and wanted to settle things with him. I just don't understand how this whole thing works at all ..... Well imagine if you were him. You just got slapped and yelled at. You can settle it with him some other time. In that current situation you should have just stayed quiet. You asking if hes drunk or not makes it seem like you're ignoring what just happened before especially since your seniors were there present. And honestly I think you're overestimating your role here. If he messed up, he would have been the only one getting yelled but you said others were getting it too. That means this is beyond you and that guy now which is why in that situation the best action was to show respect and stay quiet. I understand your point. I guess the influence of alcohol on me played a part too. Still, I thought at our age things can be resolved by talking, no ? Do we have to get so physical, whether we mess up or not ? Is that the role of a senior ? Parents maybe ? Older brother ? Teacher ? Drill sergeant ? I don't know ..... I would never slap a junior across the face, no matter how badly he messes up or no matter how much I cherish him. I believe THAT is overestimating my role. He is of age, he can learn from his mistakes without the slaps and beatings.
Well since a lot of information is left out I'm left to assume what happened. They could have been just bad seniors abusing their powers but I'm just thinking of a situation where I can see where they were coming from. The reason some Koreans get physical is cause if someone really messes up, talking isn't really always the best option. Sometimes getting physical might be more effective in getting the message across. To answer your last question, you can say the role of a senior is to watch out for his juniors. For me I always considered ideally, the role of a 형/hyung/senior is someone you respect enough that when you mess up, he tells you and even if you first disagree, you give what he says a second thought just cause you respect him that much. If you're really confused, approach one of them about last night and just try to be as respectful as you can and tell them how confused you were about what happened. Some parts of Korean culture take some time to get used to. You might not always agree with it, but at least you can better understand it.
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I do agree that you should respect your elder. However, for me it only goes as far as common politeness. In my eyes, someone who is wise and can give you advice could be any age. There are people twice my age that are still complete idiots in my eyes, while there are people who are younger that I have a lot of respect for because I know what their experience is.
The "Korean system" and "Western system" (for lack of a better term) always have seem to differed to me in one fundamental way. Koreans get respect because everyone just gives it while westerners are used to having to "demand" respect. I also think this could be a partial explanation why Koreans are quiet/shy and polite while westerners are loud and rude (compared to eachother ofcourse).
I guess both ways have their advantages and disadvantages. We dont have to take shit from anyone just because they are older or whatnot, while Koreans seem to have a much more peaceful and orderly society.
Personally I would like to see some more respect in my society (the netherlands) because it seems to be all but gone nowadays. But I have to say that imo Korea has pushed their concept of respect a bit too far on the other side of the scale.. I mean come on, if some dude is 1 year older then you that doesn't mean he knows anything more about life than you, nor does it mean that you just have to take shit from him.
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On April 10 2012 09:14 Silentness wrote:
My wife is Korean. I think she takes the whole "treat your elders with respect" TOO FAR.
She lets one of her older friends walk over her sometimes and I'm like "WTF are you doing..." She just says that it's proper respect to not cause an altercation with her older friend. I don't give a fuck though... if someone of an older age does some stupid shit I'm a say something or argue with them.
I have been known to yell at some old Korean guys. This one racist Korean woman was pretty much calling my wife a slut because she was with an American guy and I got mad as fuck. My wife got pissed and then I got pissed and all hell was about to break loose. The old Korean guy that was at the woman's table was trying to make it look like the woman was right and we were wrong. So I started yelling at him and then another guy that looked in his late 20s told me in English that I shouldn't be arguing with the old Korean guy. I was like fuck that... he was being a dick to my wife along with the Korean woman. I was so close to throwing some blows. It was that disrespectful from them...
Honestly sometimes Korean mannerisms can be frustrating to deal with, but most of the time I've enjoyed my time there. There are good days and bad days just like in the US. To stay on topic though, I always felt that Korean "age hierarchy" and western respect was very similar. I always treat older people in the US with the same amount of respect I treated the elderly Koreans. It's just common sense to respect older individuals. They have a lot more experience and life knowledge than us younger peoples.
You see, this is a story that reflects the flaw in age hierarchy even more.
To be honest, I understand what wavelength those elders and your wife were at.
However, I can't help but end up believing that the ones who acted wrong are that old man and woman.
If you were Korean, you would probably have submitted to them. Even if the ones at fault are the old man and woman. Just another victim of age hierarchy.
However, since you are not Korean, you do not pertain to this rule.
And they should damn well know this and respect this fact. Them trying to force their culture on you was just totally wrong, and objectively speaking they are the ones at fault to begin with. It's like they didn't respect YOUR culture, morale and beliefs, and expected you to adjusr to them just because you became the husband of a Korean woman. However, they should well know that values and customs acquired eversince childhood does not change just because of marriage. Usually Koreans respect foreigners and their culture ..... I don't know what's wrong with those people.
Moreover, funny thing is, in Korean culture, the husband is attributed more power because he is the "central pillar" of the household i.e. takes responsibility for income, discipline, and general well-being of the family. The wife "enters" the man's family tree, with the man's family name. This means that according to this rule in our culture your wife must be seen as "westernized".
If your wife cannot understand this, you guys need a long talk, because this is a serious cultural problem that needs to be solved.
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Respect to me implies that you can learn something from someone. Obviously this sort of social good if you will must be earned and not just given to anyone older than you. Respect your elders comes from the notion that people older than you know more than you so you should listen to them to gain knowledge. This is obviously not always the case.
Of course Hierarchy would create greed of power, because there will always be someone better than someone else in that way of thinking and someone will always try to gain power over someone else. Until people realize that everyone is equal, and get over this power struggle, we will not move forward as a species.
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On April 10 2012 09:40 Ilikestarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:26 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 09:11 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On April 10 2012 09:04 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation when hes talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure He knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation. So I m not allowed to ask him if he s not too drunk ? Him getting a disciplinary session from the seniors is one thing and him apologising to me is another. Why should a conflict started between us be settled by seniors ? If he screwed up before and got slapped then it s fine. But I am the victim here and wanted to settle things with him. I just don't understand how this whole thing works at all ..... Well imagine if you were him. You just got slapped and yelled at. You can settle it with him some other time. In that current situation you should have just stayed quiet. You asking if hes drunk or not makes it seem like you're ignoring what just happened before especially since your seniors were there present. And honestly I think you're overestimating your role here. If he messed up, he would have been the only one getting yelled but you said others were getting it too. That means this is beyond you and that guy now which is why in that situation the best action was to show respect and stay quiet. I understand your point. I guess the influence of alcohol on me played a part too. Still, I thought at our age things can be resolved by talking, no ? Do we have to get so physical, whether we mess up or not ? Is that the role of a senior ? Parents maybe ? Older brother ? Teacher ? Drill sergeant ? I don't know ..... I would never slap a junior across the face, no matter how badly he messes up or no matter how much I cherish him. I believe THAT is overestimating my role. He is of age, he can learn from his mistakes without the slaps and beatings. Well since a lot of information is left out I'm left to assume what happened. They could have been just bad seniors abusing their powers but I'm just thinking of a situation where I can see where they were coming from. The reason some Koreans get physical is cause if someone really messes up, talking isn't really always the best option. Sometimes getting physical might be more effective in getting the message across. To answer your last question, you can say the role of a senior is to watch out for his juniors. For me I always considered ideally, the role of a 형/hyung/senior is someone you respect enough that when you mess up, he tells you and even if you first disagree, you give what he says a second thought just cause you respect him that much. If you're really confused, approach one of them about last night and just try to be as respectful as you can and tell them how confused you were about what happened. Some parts of Korean culture take some time to get used to. You might not always agree with it, but at least you can better understand it.
I understand. Thanks for your wise advice. You seem to understand Korean culture way better than I do (the use of 한글 letters leads me to believe you are Korean), and your proficiency in english makes me assume you are of a similar background to mine.
It sure isn't easy to fully integrate into Korean society, if not, I'm afraid, outright impossible, for westernized people like me !
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On April 10 2012 09:57 spkim1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:40 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On April 10 2012 09:26 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 09:11 Ilikestarcraft wrote:On April 10 2012 09:04 spkim1 wrote:On April 10 2012 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
You actually acted wrong in this situation. When a senior is setting his juniors straight, usually its done with good intentions. Since you said you're Korean by blood but not nationality and for others reading this thread, who aren't as accustomed to Korean culture might find it outrageous that the senior was slapping his juniors. But for him to do that, they must have really fucked up if hes a good senior. And in that situation when hes talking to them, you coming in and asking the guy your age, if he was not too drunk and ok gives the impression you're disrespecting him. The other senior let you off easy because I'm sure He knew you meant no disrespect but it wasn't the best thing to do in the situation. So I m not allowed to ask him if he s not too drunk ? Him getting a disciplinary session from the seniors is one thing and him apologising to me is another. Why should a conflict started between us be settled by seniors ? If he screwed up before and got slapped then it s fine. But I am the victim here and wanted to settle things with him. I just don't understand how this whole thing works at all ..... Well imagine if you were him. You just got slapped and yelled at. You can settle it with him some other time. In that current situation you should have just stayed quiet. You asking if hes drunk or not makes it seem like you're ignoring what just happened before especially since your seniors were there present. And honestly I think you're overestimating your role here. If he messed up, he would have been the only one getting yelled but you said others were getting it too. That means this is beyond you and that guy now which is why in that situation the best action was to show respect and stay quiet. I understand your point. I guess the influence of alcohol on me played a part too. Still, I thought at our age things can be resolved by talking, no ? Do we have to get so physical, whether we mess up or not ? Is that the role of a senior ? Parents maybe ? Older brother ? Teacher ? Drill sergeant ? I don't know ..... I would never slap a junior across the face, no matter how badly he messes up or no matter how much I cherish him. I believe THAT is overestimating my role. He is of age, he can learn from his mistakes without the slaps and beatings. Well since a lot of information is left out I'm left to assume what happened. They could have been just bad seniors abusing their powers but I'm just thinking of a situation where I can see where they were coming from. The reason some Koreans get physical is cause if someone really messes up, talking isn't really always the best option. Sometimes getting physical might be more effective in getting the message across. To answer your last question, you can say the role of a senior is to watch out for his juniors. For me I always considered ideally, the role of a 형/hyung/senior is someone you respect enough that when you mess up, he tells you and even if you first disagree, you give what he says a second thought just cause you respect him that much. If you're really confused, approach one of them about last night and just try to be as respectful as you can and tell them how confused you were about what happened. Some parts of Korean culture take some time to get used to. You might not always agree with it, but at least you can better understand it. I understand. Thanks for your wise advice. You seem to understand Korean culture way better than I do (the use of 한글 letters leads me to believe you are Korean), and your proficiency in english makes me assume you are of a similar background to mine. It sure isn't easy to fully integrate into Korean society, if not, I'm afraid, outright impossible, for westernized people like me !
Why would you want to be part of a society where the use of force is justified just because of age? Makes absolutely no sense.
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one of my first posts on TL, but I had to weigh in. this has become a personal issue for me since coming to korea.
I got onto the subway the other day and went to sit but as I was sitting down, three old women pushed me out of the way so they could get three seats next to each other. I decided it would be best to just let them have their seats and be done with it. but honestly, as someone from the US, that kind of behavior just makes me respect my elders LESS. if two of them sat and the other remained standing, as soon as I saw that, I would have gotten up and offered her my seat, as I know I should do as a junior here in korea. but why should I show them any respect if they have the audacity to assume they can push me out of my seat just because I'm a young westerner? there is no earned respect there, and in the end, I actually lost some respect for them.
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On April 10 2012 09:31 Kimaker wrote:
Respecting someone for their age has always struck me as stupid. Or rather respecting them more BECAUSE of their age.
I've met older people with incredible knowledge and wisdom, and I've met old people full of anger and stupidity. Just like any other situation, you should respect people for the amount of respect they earn through their actions.
That being said, I tend to approach elders under the assumption that they will have something they can teach me. 60,70 years is a long time to be kicking around.
I agree with this statement completly. I respect people who deserve respect. MOST old people deserve it, because they simply have more experience than me. If they are just full of crap, then they deserve crap. This works in all levels of society. It's common sense.
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EPT
