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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP. If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
 I'd blame that On topic: Thanks for the reply. And I admit I did not scan the entire OP, my mistake. The suggestion that self-appointed "neighborhood watchmen" should clearly make themselves and their intentions known prior to approaching a suspected trouble-maker is excellent. If he had made every effort to make it clear that he was just checking on Trayvon instead of tracking him and possibly scaring him into a bad response, this thing would've been avoided. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On April 06 2013 08:58 farvacola wrote: How delightfully pedantic. "Ok, we don't need you to do that." from a police operator ought to mean something, and even more so when the threat of Trayvon is inflated and the shape of Florida's Stand Your Ground law is taken into account. And yes, my skull is quite thick, all the better to resist the pathetic spittle of a man named Kaitlin. It does mean something. It means we're not ordering you to follow him because to do so would make us (the government) liable for what happens. During investigation, either the police or the 911 operator people specifically said it was not an order to Zimmerman not to follow. It's not pedantic. It's common sense. When anyone is told not to do something, it goes like "Don't do that". Did your mother tell you "Don't put your hand on the hot stove" or did she say "I don't need you to put your hand on that hot stove" ? Is your belief as to Zimmerman's culpability based on this "order" to stand down ? Because it will be made clear once again if there is a trial, since people can't seem to understand plain English for now. Having said that, given that you've invoked the "I win" button: all the better to resist the pathetic spittle of a man named Kaitlin. I concede the argument 100%. I can't compete with your skills. Could you recommend to me a good debate school ? | ||
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farvacola
United States18869 Posts
The point is that the operator's statement need not be an order for it to count as one amongst a number of factors that ought to have dissuaded Zimmerman from pursuing. At the end of the day, I don't think there is enough evidence to hold Zimmerman legally culpable, but it is still a contentious issue nonetheless. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On April 06 2013 09:46 farvacola wrote: Nah, it wasn't an invocation of an "I win" button; 'twas merely a response in kind to the needless jab at my thick skull of petty disposition. The point is that the operator's statement need not be an order for it to count as one amongst a number of factors that ought to have dissuaded Zimmerman from pursuing. At the end of the day, I don't think there is enough evidence to hold Zimmerman legally culpable, but it is still a contentious issue nonetheless. Meh, the "thick skulls" wasn't just you, although obviously, I was responding to your post. It was a result of the numerous pro-Trayvonites who have made that argument time and again. Although, given what you've written above, I think we're on the same page that the comment was not an "order" for Zimmerman not to follow, and therefore there is no valid claim that Zimmerman disobeyed anything. I simply misunderstood that you thought otherwise when you wrote: On April 06 2013 08:52 farvacola wrote: The more menacing we make Trayvon out to be, the more reckless Zimmerman's actions become after he disobeys the order to stand down and wait for the police. | ||
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farvacola
United States18869 Posts
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Romantic
United States1844 Posts
On April 06 2013 09:26 Zooper31 wrote: Beating someone to death on the ground is lethal force yes. But then the question becomes who instigated the fight. I doubt Trayvon would just randomly attack him for no reason and I doubt the same for Zimmerman. Zimmerman should've just not have followed him and listened to the police who told him not to. Now we have to deal with a dead 17yr old because of his actions. So what conclusive proof is there that Zimmerman followed Trayvon beyond the point either he says he stopped or it was suggested he stop? | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On April 06 2013 10:51 Kaitlin wrote: I'm expecting an acquittal, demonstrations / marches orchestrated by Al Sharpton, and civil unrest / riots, not necessarily in that order. I strongly suspect that the DA has been prosecuting Zimmerman in the way that she has to avoid just that. Alan Dershowitz blasted her last year when the charges were filed. I wouldn't be surprised if his criticisms of her prove to be accurate. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
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Zooper31
United States5714 Posts
On April 06 2013 10:48 Romantic wrote: So what conclusive proof is there that Zimmerman followed Trayvon beyond the point either he says he stopped or it was suggested he stop? I'm not sure what your question is due to bad sentence structure. Are you asking for proof the police told him to not to pursue the suspect? Because theres police recordings of that when he called 911. | ||
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stevarius
United States1394 Posts
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JumboJohnson
537 Posts
Edit: Is it just semantics? | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On April 06 2013 11:04 Zooper31 wrote: I'm not sure what your question is due to bad sentence structure. Are you asking for proof the police told him to not to pursue the suspect? Because theres police recordings of that when he called 911. /facepalm See what I mean, farvacola ? It's an endless stream. Anyways, Romantic, if you're looking for conclusive proof of anything beyond Zimmerman shot Trayvon, you're going to be disappointed. My recollection is that Zimmerman had said he returned to his car and was not pursuing Trayvon, and Trayvon confronted him at his car. So, to my knowledge, there is no conclusive evidence to the contrary. I guess it's a matter of where the car / truck was parked in comparison to where Zimmerman shot Trayvon. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On April 06 2013 11:06 stevarius wrote: So when the hell is this trial going to occur? I'm really tired of this shit littering news websites every time someone sneezes from the prosecution or defense. June 10, 2013. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On April 06 2013 11:07 Sqisgar wrote: I'm sorry if this question has been asked but, how can he claim he "Stood his Ground" if he followed Trayvon? I just don't get it. Edit: Is it just semantics? http://www.volokh.com/2012/03/27/floridas-self-defense-laws/ | ||
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Romantic
United States1844 Posts
On April 06 2013 11:04 Zooper31 wrote: I'm not sure what your question is due to bad sentence structure. Are you asking for proof the police told him to not to pursue the suspect? Because theres police recordings of that when he called 911. It is perfectly understandable, maybe you have bad reading comprehension | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On April 06 2013 11:07 Sqisgar wrote: I'm sorry if this question has been asked but, how can he claim he "Stood his Ground" if he followed Trayvon? I just don't get it. Edit: Is it just semantics? Stand your Ground is a figment of the media trying to attack the law through this case, even though this case isn't a good application of it. The defense, as far as I know, is considering straight self-defense, considering Zimmerman shot Trayvon from his back with Trayvon on top of him. Stand Your Ground would provide an additional line of defense, however, so it's possibly relevant just for strategic reasons. | ||
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Misacampo
167 Posts
Who is "winning" this case currently? Or most likely to win? They caught trayvon martin's witness in two lies correct? Lie about age and lie about being in hospital, how reliable is her testimony due to these two lies? Could she not be sued for lieing on the stand or have her entire testimony thrown out? | ||
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