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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On July 17 2013 11:54 AgentW wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 11:50 ConGee wrote:On July 17 2013 11:36 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 17 2013 11:20 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 11:03 dotHead wrote:On July 17 2013 10:56 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 10:50 LegalLord wrote:On July 17 2013 10:49 ZapRoffo wrote:
I feel like something has to be addressed though, I really don't feel safe having people like George Zimmerman out in my neighborhood carrying a gun and having what he does be considered completely lawful. Untrained people with guns following anyone they don't like the look of around? That's something that should be legal? I mean hopefully people learn from how much trouble it caused for him, but then he got a lot of notoriety too, and if there are borderline crazy people that might follow, they might like that. There is nothing illegal about either keeping an eye on someone or having a gun. I'm talking should, trying to make the world a better place, not what is or isn't legal by the law right now. So you think it would be dandy if George Zimmermans started popping up in every neighborhood and you would feel really safe? Most neighborhoods, and residential areas where I live have a "town watch", it's pretty common in the US. If anyone attacked any of those people, and ended up getting killed because of it. I don't see how I would feel any less safe. It's not normal (but apparently it is legal) for neighborhood watch to actively follow anyone, or to even think about engaging someone while carrying a gun. I mean I just think about how it could easily happen to me--I am friends with some neighbors and sometimes cut through their yard, and sometimes I wear hoodies also, and if it were raining I would have the hood up. So some other self-appointed neighbor sees that and starts following me around (and he has a gun), and I have no idea if he's some creepy murderer or what. Totally would make me feel like I live in a safe neighborhood, and it totally never could turn into a bad situation. You seem to be under the strange assumption that Zimmerman had his gun out and brandished. It was on his person, yes, but if it was brandished, he wouldn't have gotten his head pummeled into the ground. Though we then might have had an actual "Stand Your Ground" case. If he had brandished it and ended up shooting Martin, that would fall under manslaughter (correct me if I'm wrong daphreak)? If it happened like that, there's no question that he should have then be convicted of something at the very least. To my understanding, if he brandished it after Martin charged at him (or somehow otherwise made Zimmerman feel threatened of major bodily injury or death), it would fall under "Stand Your Ground" and he would be not guilty of any crime. If he brandished it, and then Martin charged him (or something equivalent), I don't know where it stands.
There is that case where an old black guy killed the white kid that went after him after he engaged them (IIRC he though they were stealing a car). I think he took out his gun and said he was calling the police. The kid then charged him saying he was going to kill him or something. He was declared not guilty.
He obviously can't go out on the street waving that thing around, but just the fact he pulled it off before engaging shouldn't mean he is guilty.
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On July 17 2013 11:43 jnsjr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 11:25 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 17 2013 11:20 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 11:03 dotHead wrote:On July 17 2013 10:56 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 10:50 LegalLord wrote:On July 17 2013 10:49 ZapRoffo wrote:
I feel like something has to be addressed though, I really don't feel safe having people like George Zimmerman out in my neighborhood carrying a gun and having what he does be considered completely lawful. Untrained people with guns following anyone they don't like the look of around? That's something that should be legal? I mean hopefully people learn from how much trouble it caused for him, but then he got a lot of notoriety too, and if there are borderline crazy people that might follow, they might like that. There is nothing illegal about either keeping an eye on someone or having a gun. I'm talking should, trying to make the world a better place, not what is or isn't legal by the law right now. So you think it would be dandy if George Zimmermans started popping up in every neighborhood and you would feel really safe? Most neighborhoods, and residential areas where I live have a "town watch", it's pretty common in the US. If anyone attacked any of those people, and ended up getting killed because of it. I don't see how I would feel any less safe. It's not normal (but apparently it is legal) for neighborhood watch to actively follow anyone, or to even think about engaging someone while carrying a gun. I mean I just think about how it could easily happen to me--I am friends with some neighbors and sometimes cut through their yard, and sometimes I wear hoodies also, and if it were raining I would have the hood up. So some other self-appointed neighbor sees that and starts following me around (and he has a gun), and I have no idea if he's some creepy murderer or what. Totally would make me feel like I live in a safe neighborhood, and it totally never could turn into a bad situation. i suggest you not punch the guy and slam his head against the concrete, and then you will probably be okay. this isnt a one sided affair. zimmerman may have acted incorrectly, but the situation could easily have been diffused. easily. That doesn't change the fact that you still have someone following you with a gun because HE thinks your suspicious. I'd rather avoid that and having a confrontation with an armed stranger through no fault of my own if possible. Everything may go fine most of the time (maybe almost all the time) but if things go poorly once (possibly through no fault of your own), you may end up dead. There is a reason why the vast majority of neighborhood watches stress that you must avoid confrontation and don't allow you to have guns (granted this is while you are on duty), and train you to WATCH and call the police. The professionals may not be be any better, but I'd rather have a guy in a police uniform approaching me than some random stranger with a gun. It's a completely different response (as the person getting confronted) when its a cop vs a stranger.
you are completely overblowing zimmerman's fault in this situation. if trayvon had merely said "i am walking to my dad's house, he lives at 3347 reindeer dr." nothing would have happened.
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Oh yeah, pulling up some stats, it would appear roughly 8% of the adult population in the State of Florida has a concealed carry license. Yeah, jumping another person is a bad idea in Florida.
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On July 17 2013 11:59 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 11:43 jnsjr wrote:On July 17 2013 11:25 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 17 2013 11:20 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 11:03 dotHead wrote:On July 17 2013 10:56 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 10:50 LegalLord wrote:On July 17 2013 10:49 ZapRoffo wrote:
I feel like something has to be addressed though, I really don't feel safe having people like George Zimmerman out in my neighborhood carrying a gun and having what he does be considered completely lawful. Untrained people with guns following anyone they don't like the look of around? That's something that should be legal? I mean hopefully people learn from how much trouble it caused for him, but then he got a lot of notoriety too, and if there are borderline crazy people that might follow, they might like that. There is nothing illegal about either keeping an eye on someone or having a gun. I'm talking should, trying to make the world a better place, not what is or isn't legal by the law right now. So you think it would be dandy if George Zimmermans started popping up in every neighborhood and you would feel really safe? Most neighborhoods, and residential areas where I live have a "town watch", it's pretty common in the US. If anyone attacked any of those people, and ended up getting killed because of it. I don't see how I would feel any less safe. It's not normal (but apparently it is legal) for neighborhood watch to actively follow anyone, or to even think about engaging someone while carrying a gun. I mean I just think about how it could easily happen to me--I am friends with some neighbors and sometimes cut through their yard, and sometimes I wear hoodies also, and if it were raining I would have the hood up. So some other self-appointed neighbor sees that and starts following me around (and he has a gun), and I have no idea if he's some creepy murderer or what. Totally would make me feel like I live in a safe neighborhood, and it totally never could turn into a bad situation. i suggest you not punch the guy and slam his head against the concrete, and then you will probably be okay. this isnt a one sided affair. zimmerman may have acted incorrectly, but the situation could easily have been diffused. easily. That doesn't change the fact that you still have someone following you with a gun because HE thinks your suspicious. I'd rather avoid that and having a confrontation with an armed stranger through no fault of my own if possible. Everything may go fine most of the time (maybe almost all the time) but if things go poorly once (possibly through no fault of your own), you may end up dead. There is a reason why the vast majority of neighborhood watches stress that you must avoid confrontation and don't allow you to have guns (granted this is while you are on duty), and train you to WATCH and call the police. The professionals may not be be any better, but I'd rather have a guy in a police uniform approaching me than some random stranger with a gun. It's a completely different response (as the person getting confronted) when its a cop vs a stranger. you are completely overblowing zimmerman's fault in this situation. if trayvon had merely said "i am walking to my dad's house, he lives at 3347 reindeer dr." nothing would have happened.
The term fault here is pretty loaded, as you can look at it from a legal sense, a moral sense, etc. Reasonable people can disagree on Zimmerman's level of fault, as evidenced by this thread, and the debates going on around the country.
Personally, I agree with the jury's decision, and don't think that I am overblowing his "fault" at all. I am simply stating that I would rather have as close to zero confrontations with an armed stranger following someone they deem suspicious in my neighborhood if it all possible, and more calls to the police of suspicious behavior.
Maybe you feel differently, but I think its reasonable to think that if an armed stranger approaches someone they deem suspicious, that there will be more tragedies and needless deaths like this occurring. This time it was self-defense, but switch the facts slightly, and it could be manslaughter or murder. Why not eliminate the confrontation all together and just call the police or follow from your vehicle. It's obviously not illegal to follow and question someone, but may not be the best idea.
I am a bit curious about your advice to those that are being followed by armed strangers. Why would you just not advise them to walk away or run? As I'm sure you are aware, you have no legal duty to answer a stranger's questions, and they have no authority to keep you there.
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On July 17 2013 12:36 jnsjr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 11:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 17 2013 11:43 jnsjr wrote:On July 17 2013 11:25 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 17 2013 11:20 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 11:03 dotHead wrote:On July 17 2013 10:56 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 10:50 LegalLord wrote:On July 17 2013 10:49 ZapRoffo wrote:
I feel like something has to be addressed though, I really don't feel safe having people like George Zimmerman out in my neighborhood carrying a gun and having what he does be considered completely lawful. Untrained people with guns following anyone they don't like the look of around? That's something that should be legal? I mean hopefully people learn from how much trouble it caused for him, but then he got a lot of notoriety too, and if there are borderline crazy people that might follow, they might like that. There is nothing illegal about either keeping an eye on someone or having a gun. I'm talking should, trying to make the world a better place, not what is or isn't legal by the law right now. So you think it would be dandy if George Zimmermans started popping up in every neighborhood and you would feel really safe? Most neighborhoods, and residential areas where I live have a "town watch", it's pretty common in the US. If anyone attacked any of those people, and ended up getting killed because of it. I don't see how I would feel any less safe. It's not normal (but apparently it is legal) for neighborhood watch to actively follow anyone, or to even think about engaging someone while carrying a gun. I mean I just think about how it could easily happen to me--I am friends with some neighbors and sometimes cut through their yard, and sometimes I wear hoodies also, and if it were raining I would have the hood up. So some other self-appointed neighbor sees that and starts following me around (and he has a gun), and I have no idea if he's some creepy murderer or what. Totally would make me feel like I live in a safe neighborhood, and it totally never could turn into a bad situation. i suggest you not punch the guy and slam his head against the concrete, and then you will probably be okay. this isnt a one sided affair. zimmerman may have acted incorrectly, but the situation could easily have been diffused. easily. That doesn't change the fact that you still have someone following you with a gun because HE thinks your suspicious. I'd rather avoid that and having a confrontation with an armed stranger through no fault of my own if possible. Everything may go fine most of the time (maybe almost all the time) but if things go poorly once (possibly through no fault of your own), you may end up dead. There is a reason why the vast majority of neighborhood watches stress that you must avoid confrontation and don't allow you to have guns (granted this is while you are on duty), and train you to WATCH and call the police. The professionals may not be be any better, but I'd rather have a guy in a police uniform approaching me than some random stranger with a gun. It's a completely different response (as the person getting confronted) when its a cop vs a stranger. you are completely overblowing zimmerman's fault in this situation. if trayvon had merely said "i am walking to my dad's house, he lives at 3347 reindeer dr." nothing would have happened. The term fault here is pretty loaded, as you can look at it from a legal sense, a moral sense, etc. Reasonable people can disagree on Zimmerman's level of fault, as evidenced by this thread, and the debates going on around the country. Personally, I agree with the jury's decision, and don't think that I am overblowing his "fault" at all. I am simply stating that I would rather have as close to zero confrontations with an armed stranger following someone they deem suspicious in my neighborhood if it all possible, and more calls to the police of suspicious behavior. Maybe you feel differently, but I think its reasonable to think that if an armed stranger approaches someone they deem suspicious, that there will be more tragedies and needless deaths like this occurring. This time it was self-defense, but switch the facts slightly, and it could be manslaughter or murder. Why not eliminate the confrontation all together and just call the police or follow from your vehicle. It's obviously not illegal to follow and question someone, but may not be the best idea. I am a bit curious about your advice to those that are being followed by armed strangers. Why would you just not advise them to walk away or run? As I'm sure you are aware, you have no legal duty to answer a stranger's questions, and they have no authority to keep you there.
i am sure zimmerman would prefer he not have to feel like he needs a gun in his own neighborhood. i am sure zimmerman would prefer he not feel he needs to monitor his neighborhood. i am sure his neighborhood would prefer that they not need to have to call the cops every few days. i am sure the mother who had burglars in her home would prefer that they had not broken into her house and tried to get to her and her babies through a locked door while the baby is wailing and she is calling the cops. this is a fun game of ignoring the circumstances and acting like we live in a utopian society. yes, i am sure you would prefer you live with mr. rogers in your neighborhood than zimmerman, but if you lived in sanford you may rethink that.
my advice to trayvon? go home. and when confronted by people asking you why you are in the neighborhood, dont punch them.
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Didn't realize so many people got the vapors over g-g-g-GUNS! being legally carried around in public, perhaps if it is too scary or distasteful for you you should move to a city like Chicago with very strict gun laws - oh wait. I think we all know where my snark is going.
Also, there seems to be a trend in this thread where people are elevating their distaste to a level of moral or legal authority. Don't like people carrying guns? Don't like guns? Think it is a crime near to murder itself to bother someone on the street because of a suspicion they're up to no good?
Cool. That doesn't mean Zimmerman was more culpable or culpable at all because you don't like guns or people carrying them in public or any of the other circumstances that make you angry and disgusted.
We have laws precisely so our feelings don't rule the day with mob justice.
Another thing to note I have never seen so many news articles and opinion pieces simply get the facts dead wrong as I have seen in this case, I have read hundreds of news stories / editorials / columns that tell a story that doesn't even have a passing resemblance to the evidence introduced in court. And it's not going to change. It will only get worse. And not just when it comes to Trayvon Martin's death, they do it everywhere all the time, trying to surreptitiously shape the way we think when they're not outright plain telling us what we should think.
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On July 17 2013 12:47 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 12:36 jnsjr wrote:On July 17 2013 11:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 17 2013 11:43 jnsjr wrote:On July 17 2013 11:25 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 17 2013 11:20 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 11:03 dotHead wrote:On July 17 2013 10:56 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 10:50 LegalLord wrote:On July 17 2013 10:49 ZapRoffo wrote:
I feel like something has to be addressed though, I really don't feel safe having people like George Zimmerman out in my neighborhood carrying a gun and having what he does be considered completely lawful. Untrained people with guns following anyone they don't like the look of around? That's something that should be legal? I mean hopefully people learn from how much trouble it caused for him, but then he got a lot of notoriety too, and if there are borderline crazy people that might follow, they might like that. There is nothing illegal about either keeping an eye on someone or having a gun. I'm talking should, trying to make the world a better place, not what is or isn't legal by the law right now. So you think it would be dandy if George Zimmermans started popping up in every neighborhood and you would feel really safe? Most neighborhoods, and residential areas where I live have a "town watch", it's pretty common in the US. If anyone attacked any of those people, and ended up getting killed because of it. I don't see how I would feel any less safe. It's not normal (but apparently it is legal) for neighborhood watch to actively follow anyone, or to even think about engaging someone while carrying a gun. I mean I just think about how it could easily happen to me--I am friends with some neighbors and sometimes cut through their yard, and sometimes I wear hoodies also, and if it were raining I would have the hood up. So some other self-appointed neighbor sees that and starts following me around (and he has a gun), and I have no idea if he's some creepy murderer or what. Totally would make me feel like I live in a safe neighborhood, and it totally never could turn into a bad situation. i suggest you not punch the guy and slam his head against the concrete, and then you will probably be okay. this isnt a one sided affair. zimmerman may have acted incorrectly, but the situation could easily have been diffused. easily. That doesn't change the fact that you still have someone following you with a gun because HE thinks your suspicious. I'd rather avoid that and having a confrontation with an armed stranger through no fault of my own if possible. Everything may go fine most of the time (maybe almost all the time) but if things go poorly once (possibly through no fault of your own), you may end up dead. There is a reason why the vast majority of neighborhood watches stress that you must avoid confrontation and don't allow you to have guns (granted this is while you are on duty), and train you to WATCH and call the police. The professionals may not be be any better, but I'd rather have a guy in a police uniform approaching me than some random stranger with a gun. It's a completely different response (as the person getting confronted) when its a cop vs a stranger. you are completely overblowing zimmerman's fault in this situation. if trayvon had merely said "i am walking to my dad's house, he lives at 3347 reindeer dr." nothing would have happened. The term fault here is pretty loaded, as you can look at it from a legal sense, a moral sense, etc. Reasonable people can disagree on Zimmerman's level of fault, as evidenced by this thread, and the debates going on around the country. Personally, I agree with the jury's decision, and don't think that I am overblowing his "fault" at all. I am simply stating that I would rather have as close to zero confrontations with an armed stranger following someone they deem suspicious in my neighborhood if it all possible, and more calls to the police of suspicious behavior. Maybe you feel differently, but I think its reasonable to think that if an armed stranger approaches someone they deem suspicious, that there will be more tragedies and needless deaths like this occurring. This time it was self-defense, but switch the facts slightly, and it could be manslaughter or murder. Why not eliminate the confrontation all together and just call the police or follow from your vehicle. It's obviously not illegal to follow and question someone, but may not be the best idea. I am a bit curious about your advice to those that are being followed by armed strangers. Why would you just not advise them to walk away or run? As I'm sure you are aware, you have no legal duty to answer a stranger's questions, and they have no authority to keep you there. i am sure zimmerman would prefer he not have to feel like he needs a gun in his own neighborhood. i am sure zimmerman would prefer he not feel he needs to monitor his neighborhood. i am sure his neighborhood would prefer that they not need to have to call the cops every few days. i am sure the mother who had burglars in her home would prefer that they had not broken into her house and tried to get to her and her babies through a locked door while the baby is wailing and she is calling the cops. this is a fun game of ignoring the circumstances and acting like we live in a utopian society. yes, i am sure you would prefer you live with mr. rogers in your neighborhood than zimmerman, but if you lived in sanford you may rethink that. my advice to trayvon? go home. and when confronted by people asking you why you are in the neighborhood, dont punch them.
Dwayne Wade tweeted "What do I tell my boys?". Simple answer: don't punch random strangers. Not surprising most of the feedback of this verdict in the NBA was shock and anger.
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I have been seeing a lot of outcry about this being outcried upon. Basically, people (including other black people) are saying this is retarded to get angry about when there is hugely more of a problem of black on black crime. Someone qouted a stat of like 2k blacks killed by blacks since trayvon died. Regardless if this is true, I am now curious:
I'm curious on the stats of all murders now. Like race, culture, location, sex, poverty level, belief system, and same stats for those in prisons. It would be the most interesting fact to point out of more black on black deaths vs white on black deaths. And not just white vs black, all ethnicities.
Anyone know?
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On July 17 2013 13:00 MarlieChurphy wrote:
I have been seeing a lot of outcry about this being outcried upon. Basically, people (including other black people) are saying this is retarded to get angry about when there is hugely more of a problem of black on black crime. Someone qouted a stat of like 2k blacks killed by blacks since trayvon died. Regardless if this is true, I am now curious:
I'm curious on the stats of all murders now. Like race, culture, location, sex, poverty level, belief system, and same stats for those in prisons. It would be the most interesting fact to point out of more black on black deaths vs white on black deaths. And not just white vs black, all ethnicities.
Anyone know?
I'm not sure on the exact statistic but I heard there has been approximately 1,500 black teenagers shot and killed since Trayvon Martin's death. I doubt most people know the name of even one of them.
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On July 17 2013 11:56 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 11:50 ConGee wrote:On July 17 2013 11:36 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 17 2013 11:20 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 11:03 dotHead wrote:On July 17 2013 10:56 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 10:50 LegalLord wrote:On July 17 2013 10:49 ZapRoffo wrote:
I feel like something has to be addressed though, I really don't feel safe having people like George Zimmerman out in my neighborhood carrying a gun and having what he does be considered completely lawful. Untrained people with guns following anyone they don't like the look of around? That's something that should be legal? I mean hopefully people learn from how much trouble it caused for him, but then he got a lot of notoriety too, and if there are borderline crazy people that might follow, they might like that. There is nothing illegal about either keeping an eye on someone or having a gun. I'm talking should, trying to make the world a better place, not what is or isn't legal by the law right now. So you think it would be dandy if George Zimmermans started popping up in every neighborhood and you would feel really safe? Most neighborhoods, and residential areas where I live have a "town watch", it's pretty common in the US. If anyone attacked any of those people, and ended up getting killed because of it. I don't see how I would feel any less safe. It's not normal (but apparently it is legal) for neighborhood watch to actively follow anyone, or to even think about engaging someone while carrying a gun. I mean I just think about how it could easily happen to me--I am friends with some neighbors and sometimes cut through their yard, and sometimes I wear hoodies also, and if it were raining I would have the hood up. So some other self-appointed neighbor sees that and starts following me around (and he has a gun), and I have no idea if he's some creepy murderer or what. Totally would make me feel like I live in a safe neighborhood, and it totally never could turn into a bad situation. You seem to be under the strange assumption that Zimmerman had his gun out and brandished. It was on his person, yes, but if it was brandished, he wouldn't have gotten his head pummeled into the ground. Though we then might have had an actual "Stand Your Ground" case. If he had brandished it and ended up shooting Martin, that would fall under manslaughter (correct me if I'm wrong daphreak)? If it happened like that, there's no question that he should have then be convicted of something at the very least. If
I know it's a "if", I don't believe it happened that way.
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On July 17 2013 13:00 MarlieChurphy wrote:
I have been seeing a lot of outcry about this being outcried upon. Basically, people (including other black people) are saying this is retarded to get angry about when there is hugely more of a problem of black on black crime. Someone qouted a stat of like 2k blacks killed by blacks since trayvon died. Regardless if this is true, I am now curious:
I'm curious on the stats of all murders now. Like race, culture, location, sex, poverty level, belief system, and same stats for those in prisons. It would be the most interesting fact to point out of more black on black deaths vs white on black deaths. And not just white vs black, all ethnicities.
Anyone know?
I know the analysis is out there, but you could use the raw FBI stats. But "White on Black" crime is the rarest.
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On July 17 2013 13:04 ConGee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 11:56 kmillz wrote:On July 17 2013 11:50 ConGee wrote:On July 17 2013 11:36 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 17 2013 11:20 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 11:03 dotHead wrote:On July 17 2013 10:56 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 10:50 LegalLord wrote:On July 17 2013 10:49 ZapRoffo wrote:
I feel like something has to be addressed though, I really don't feel safe having people like George Zimmerman out in my neighborhood carrying a gun and having what he does be considered completely lawful. Untrained people with guns following anyone they don't like the look of around? That's something that should be legal? I mean hopefully people learn from how much trouble it caused for him, but then he got a lot of notoriety too, and if there are borderline crazy people that might follow, they might like that. There is nothing illegal about either keeping an eye on someone or having a gun. I'm talking should, trying to make the world a better place, not what is or isn't legal by the law right now. So you think it would be dandy if George Zimmermans started popping up in every neighborhood and you would feel really safe? Most neighborhoods, and residential areas where I live have a "town watch", it's pretty common in the US. If anyone attacked any of those people, and ended up getting killed because of it. I don't see how I would feel any less safe. It's not normal (but apparently it is legal) for neighborhood watch to actively follow anyone, or to even think about engaging someone while carrying a gun. I mean I just think about how it could easily happen to me--I am friends with some neighbors and sometimes cut through their yard, and sometimes I wear hoodies also, and if it were raining I would have the hood up. So some other self-appointed neighbor sees that and starts following me around (and he has a gun), and I have no idea if he's some creepy murderer or what. Totally would make me feel like I live in a safe neighborhood, and it totally never could turn into a bad situation. You seem to be under the strange assumption that Zimmerman had his gun out and brandished. It was on his person, yes, but if it was brandished, he wouldn't have gotten his head pummeled into the ground. Though we then might have had an actual "Stand Your Ground" case. If he had brandished it and ended up shooting Martin, that would fall under manslaughter (correct me if I'm wrong daphreak)? If it happened like that, there's no question that he should have then be convicted of something at the very least. If I know it's a "if", I don't believe it happened that way.
Even if it did..1st of all I doubt Trayvon would have been so ballsy in attacking George...2nd of all I don't think it would make what happened any less self-defense unless George pointed and threatened to shoot Martin.
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On July 17 2013 12:57 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 12:47 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 17 2013 12:36 jnsjr wrote:On July 17 2013 11:59 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 17 2013 11:43 jnsjr wrote:On July 17 2013 11:25 dAPhREAk wrote:On July 17 2013 11:20 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 11:03 dotHead wrote:On July 17 2013 10:56 ZapRoffo wrote:On July 17 2013 10:50 LegalLord wrote:
[quote]
There is nothing illegal about either keeping an eye on someone or having a gun. I'm talking should, trying to make the world a better place, not what is or isn't legal by the law right now. So you think it would be dandy if George Zimmermans started popping up in every neighborhood and you would feel really safe? Most neighborhoods, and residential areas where I live have a "town watch", it's pretty common in the US. If anyone attacked any of those people, and ended up getting killed because of it. I don't see how I would feel any less safe. It's not normal (but apparently it is legal) for neighborhood watch to actively follow anyone, or to even think about engaging someone while carrying a gun. I mean I just think about how it could easily happen to me--I am friends with some neighbors and sometimes cut through their yard, and sometimes I wear hoodies also, and if it were raining I would have the hood up. So some other self-appointed neighbor sees that and starts following me around (and he has a gun), and I have no idea if he's some creepy murderer or what. Totally would make me feel like I live in a safe neighborhood, and it totally never could turn into a bad situation. i suggest you not punch the guy and slam his head against the concrete, and then you will probably be okay. this isnt a one sided affair. zimmerman may have acted incorrectly, but the situation could easily have been diffused. easily. That doesn't change the fact that you still have someone following you with a gun because HE thinks your suspicious. I'd rather avoid that and having a confrontation with an armed stranger through no fault of my own if possible. Everything may go fine most of the time (maybe almost all the time) but if things go poorly once (possibly through no fault of your own), you may end up dead. There is a reason why the vast majority of neighborhood watches stress that you must avoid confrontation and don't allow you to have guns (granted this is while you are on duty), and train you to WATCH and call the police. The professionals may not be be any better, but I'd rather have a guy in a police uniform approaching me than some random stranger with a gun. It's a completely different response (as the person getting confronted) when its a cop vs a stranger. you are completely overblowing zimmerman's fault in this situation. if trayvon had merely said "i am walking to my dad's house, he lives at 3347 reindeer dr." nothing would have happened. The term fault here is pretty loaded, as you can look at it from a legal sense, a moral sense, etc. Reasonable people can disagree on Zimmerman's level of fault, as evidenced by this thread, and the debates going on around the country. Personally, I agree with the jury's decision, and don't think that I am overblowing his "fault" at all. I am simply stating that I would rather have as close to zero confrontations with an armed stranger following someone they deem suspicious in my neighborhood if it all possible, and more calls to the police of suspicious behavior. Maybe you feel differently, but I think its reasonable to think that if an armed stranger approaches someone they deem suspicious, that there will be more tragedies and needless deaths like this occurring. This time it was self-defense, but switch the facts slightly, and it could be manslaughter or murder. Why not eliminate the confrontation all together and just call the police or follow from your vehicle. It's obviously not illegal to follow and question someone, but may not be the best idea. I am a bit curious about your advice to those that are being followed by armed strangers. Why would you just not advise them to walk away or run? As I'm sure you are aware, you have no legal duty to answer a stranger's questions, and they have no authority to keep you there. i am sure zimmerman would prefer he not have to feel like he needs a gun in his own neighborhood. i am sure zimmerman would prefer he not feel he needs to monitor his neighborhood. i am sure his neighborhood would prefer that they not need to have to call the cops every few days. i am sure the mother who had burglars in her home would prefer that they had not broken into her house and tried to get to her and her babies through a locked door while the baby is wailing and she is calling the cops. this is a fun game of ignoring the circumstances and acting like we live in a utopian society. yes, i am sure you would prefer you live with mr. rogers in your neighborhood than zimmerman, but if you lived in sanford you may rethink that. my advice to trayvon? go home. and when confronted by people asking you why you are in the neighborhood, dont punch them. Dwayne Wade tweeted "What do I tell my boys?". Simple answer: don't punch random strangers. Not surprising most of the feedback of this verdict in the NBA was shock and anger.
That's the white privilege in you talking.
Dwayne is in prominent company; why, even men as intelligent as the New York Times' regular black racist columnist, Charles Blow, were left unable to figure out for themselves what to tell their boys.
Don't punch random strangers who piss you off. I want to make a joke but I can't think of how to make one about the racial divide on this that doesn't sound racist so I will chalk it up to rich and powerful people get flabbergasted then super pissed when they don't get their way and that explains it. Lots of rich and powerful whites blowing their tops over this too. And the rich and powerful blacks and whites in the NAACP or who live in the Upper West Side or the Bay Area, the entertainment moguls, all the people who shape black culture, they all tell the masses of black people racism racism racism. They've never been told anything different by the people that lead their communities, provide their entertainment, and everyone else in the politico-race complex.
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On July 17 2013 13:04 Taf the Ghost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 13:00 MarlieChurphy wrote:
I have been seeing a lot of outcry about this being outcried upon. Basically, people (including other black people) are saying this is retarded to get angry about when there is hugely more of a problem of black on black crime. Someone qouted a stat of like 2k blacks killed by blacks since trayvon died. Regardless if this is true, I am now curious:
I'm curious on the stats of all murders now. Like race, culture, location, sex, poverty level, belief system, and same stats for those in prisons. It would be the most interesting fact to point out of more black on black deaths vs white on black deaths. And not just white vs black, all ethnicities.
Anyone know? I know the analysis is out there, but you could use the raw FBI stats. But "White on Black" crime is the rarest.
Yea some guy quoted me it on a KPCC FB article:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl06.xls
With his breakdown added:
Of 2010 single-victim/single-perpetrator murders:
13.4% of white murder victims were murdered by black perpetrators.
8.0% of black murder victims were murdered by white perpetrators.
When you account for population percentage differences this is especially troubling: Black or African American are 12.6% of the population whole White or European American are 72.4%.
Reality is politically incorrect.
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Please tell me someone else has on fox news right now. They have the angriest black guy in the world just shouting at some other black guy about how the verdict was right. It's amazing.
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On Monday afternoon, the US Department of Justice appealed to civil rights groups and the general public across the country for “tips” on George Zimmerman in their pursuit of potential federal civil rights charges against the just-acquitted defendant in the Trayvon Martin killing. The DOJ actually went so far as to set up an e-mail address to allow such tips: Sanford.florida@usdoj.gov. The email address is slated to go operational by the end of the week.
Barbara Arnwine, president and executive director of the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law told the Orlando Sentinel that the DOJ had held a Monday conference call “calling on us to actively refer anyone who had any information” that would help build a case against Zimmerman. "They said they would very aggressively investigate this case,” Arnwine stated.
According to Arnwine, the call began at 3:30 p.m. with Tom Perez, Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Rights Division of the United States DOJ, and representatives of the FBI on the line. Several prosecutors joined the call, too.
Arnwine listed off other organizations represented on the call, including the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, the ACLU, and several “human relations” groups.
breitbart
Eric Holder aint done trying Zimmerman for something, anything he could be guilty of. The day he was innocent of the killing was the day nonprofit legal and race rights groups start trying to find actionable cases of racism.
Don't hold your breath waiting for La Raza or others defending a hispanic man being pursued like this.
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On July 17 2013 10:29 dAPhREAk wrote:
its interesting how the jurors considered the exact same things discussed in this thread (over and over and over and over again) about how zimmerman could have avoided the situation by not getting out of his car and that they felt zimmerman was stupid in what he did, but ultimately didnt do anything illegal.
I think it's more interesting how you can't seem to fathom that some people have a code of ethics or morality that exists independently of the law, and that that code might be interesting to discuss. The thread is called the shooting of trayvon martin, not the trial of george zimmerman under the legal system of the United States of America in the state of florida in 2013, as you seem to think it is.
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On July 17 2013 13:35 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On Monday afternoon, the US Department of Justice appealed to civil rights groups and the general public across the country for “tips” on George Zimmerman in their pursuit of potential federal civil rights charges against the just-acquitted defendant in the Trayvon Martin killing. The DOJ actually went so far as to set up an e-mail address to allow such tips: Sanford.florida@usdoj.gov. The email address is slated to go operational by the end of the week.
Barbara Arnwine, president and executive director of the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law told the Orlando Sentinel that the DOJ had held a Monday conference call “calling on us to actively refer anyone who had any information” that would help build a case against Zimmerman. "They said they would very aggressively investigate this case,” Arnwine stated.
According to Arnwine, the call began at 3:30 p.m. with Tom Perez, Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Rights Division of the United States DOJ, and representatives of the FBI on the line. Several prosecutors joined the call, too.
Arnwine listed off other organizations represented on the call, including the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, the ACLU, and several “human relations” groups. breitbartEric Holder aint done trying Zimmerman for something, anything he could be guilty of. The day he was innocent of the killing was the day nonprofit legal and race rights groups start trying to find actionable cases of racism. Don't hold your breath waiting for La Raza or others defending a hispanic man being pursued like this.
Is there really nothing better they could do with all that time and money instead of turning over every rock and stone in one man's life?
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On July 17 2013 13:38 Blennd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 10:29 dAPhREAk wrote:
its interesting how the jurors considered the exact same things discussed in this thread (over and over and over and over again) about how zimmerman could have avoided the situation by not getting out of his car and that they felt zimmerman was stupid in what he did, but ultimately didnt do anything illegal. I think it's more interesting how you can't seem to fathom that some people have a code of ethics or morality that exists independently of the law, and that that code might be interesting to discuss. The thread is called the shooting of trayvon martin, not the trial of george zimmerman under the legal system of the United States of America in the state of florida in 2013, as you seem to think it is.
yes, you called me out. i have no concept that there are ethics and morals outside the legal system. phew. glad someone finally confronted me on that.
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On July 17 2013 13:38 Blennd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 10:29 dAPhREAk wrote:
its interesting how the jurors considered the exact same things discussed in this thread (over and over and over and over again) about how zimmerman could have avoided the situation by not getting out of his car and that they felt zimmerman was stupid in what he did, but ultimately didnt do anything illegal. I think it's more interesting how you can't seem to fathom that some people have a code of ethics or morality that exists independently of the law, and that that code might be interesting to discuss. The thread is called the shooting of trayvon martin, not the trial of george zimmerman under the legal system of the United States of America in the state of florida in 2013, as you seem to think it is.
I would really be more morally outraged if TM turned out to be a burglar and killed one of GZ's neighbors while committing a crime all because GZ ignored TM and went on his merry way to Target.
It is not morally wrong to track a suspicious character in a neighborhood that has been harassed by suspicious characters.
I would actually call someone like that brave.
It is not morally wrong to carry a firearm, especially when you know there are dangerous people wandering about.
I would actually call someone like that smart.
It is not morally wrong to shoot some hyper-aggressive teenager who attacks you because you were following him and only shooting him after having screamed for help for damn near a minute and receiving none.
I would actually call someone like that restrained and worthy of carrying a firearm.
I'm having trouble trying to figure out where this moral outrage is coming from...?
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EPT
