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This is a sensitive and complex issue, please do not make comments without first reading the facts, which are cataloged in the OP.
If you make an uninformed post, or one that isn't relevant to the discussion, you will be moderated. If in doubt, don't post. |
On March 30 2012 03:29 BrownBagin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 03:19 Crushinator wrote:On March 30 2012 03:02 BrownBagin wrote:
Now seeing as most of these inmates are black i would assume the same thing if i saw a black male walking in the rain with his hands in his pockets looking at houses. Does that make me a racists? Yes, in my honest opinion, that makes you a racist. But that's ok we are all racist to varying degrees, do try not to act on your racist biases like Zimmerman did though. First of all your picking one sentence out and using it to make me look like i am racist. I am not i have many god friends of other races. One of my good friends from work that i hang out with all the time is black. Now if you read about how his neighborhood is known for black male crimes why would he not see a black male looking suspicious the way Trayvon looked that night? You would think the same exact thing in that neighborhood!
You defined your question quite well, I don't think the rest of it was relevant. Now I'm not saying you are a white supremacist, but having a black friend hardly disqualifies you from being racially biased. Concluding that someone is likely about to commit a crime solely because they are a black male walking in the rain with hands in their pockets is really very racist. Citing statistics does not change that at all, if anything trying to rationalize your bias makes it worse.
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On March 30 2012 03:32 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 03:24 BrownBagin wrote:On March 30 2012 03:12 lwwkicker wrote:On March 30 2012 03:02 BrownBagin wrote:
One thing i think a lot of people need to do is put themselves in Zimmerman's shoes, and put yourself in the same situation and play it out the exact way up to the point of the shooting. As a person who works under a law enforcement agency in Texas in the 3rd largest county jail in the U.S. by Zimmerman's story and witness's statements i would have done the same thing. My training has told me when in an altercation with an inmate an officer must keep the level of force just above that of the inmate. Now by Zimmerman's and the witness's statements he was underneath Trayvon and being beating, if he used a gun my conclusion is he could not fight back well enough to get Trayvon off and control him. I have two examples of inmate fights i was in the past two weeks that show the amount of force that is required to control another that is fighting. The first was a week ago, while i was doing a cell search we got a call that there was an inmate fight. I ran to the fight were 2 black males were punching each other, me and my sergeant fought to control and handcuff one inmate who was resisting to put his hands being his back. The second the inmate pushed back on my sergeant i grabbed him by the collar and put my leg on the inside of his thigh and pulled him down to the ground where we were able to handcuff him. My level of force went up above that of the inmates as soon as he raised his level of aggression. Now two nights ago i had another fight between two black males, i went into the cell and grabbed one of them from around his back and pulled him off the other inmate and brought him to the closest wall. The inmate did not fight back so i let go he did not resist so i did not have to use any other force to control him. Now ask was Zimmerman able to control Trayvon while being hit, so was his level of force being raised up to deadly force justifiable? If he did not pull his gun out would Trayvon have beaten him to death? These are very hard questions to ask from looking on the outside in. What does subduing inmates (known, convicted criminals) have to do with what was apparently a 'street fight' between two strangers? I, personally, would never put myself in Zimmerman's situation, and I would never conceal and carry, but that's just me. Now on the whole racial subject of Zimmerman going door to door. If the neighborhood was known to have black males committing crimes what is wrong with him letting people know to keep a look out for suspicious black males?! The jail i work in has over 15,000 inmates, over 90% of these inmates are black, 5% are hispanic, and the other 5% are split between whites and asians. Now seeing as most of these inmates are black i would assume the same thing if i saw a black male walking in the rain with his hands in his pockets looking at houses. Does that make me a racists? Or does it show that i have experienced enough to know that the chances a white/asian/hispanic males walking alone versus a black male walking alone and possibly them being up to no good are vastly great. Could Zimmerman also have been experienced enough to know about his neighborhood to know that he in fact did look like he was up to no good? From what the facts have shown that the neighborhood has had a huge amount of crimes from black males. So Zimmerman saw a black male walking alone at night, suspicious? Not really who cares. Now take it even further, Zimmerman seeing a black male walking alone at night while raining, suspicious? A little but not a lot. Once again even further! Zimmerman seeing a black male walking alone at night in the rain with his hands in his pockets, suspicious? Yes this is suspicious! Now again! Zimmerman seeing a black male walking alone at night while its raining with his hands in his pockets and looking at the houses, suspicious? YES VERY! Zimmerman found all of this very suspicious from his history and knowledge of his neighborhood previous crimes. More black people are convicted of crime, so let's start racially profiling them? If you gotta walk somewhere, you gotta walk, raining or not. Walking with his hands in his pockets? Seriously? I do that almost all the time. If it is cold (or rainy), expect to see me with my hands in my pockets 100% of the time. If you do not understand the comparison i was making of the amount of force Zimmerman used to the amount of force the law enforcement use then you should re-read what i wrote. I do not see why you would think to put yourself in Zimmerman's shoes literally. Put yourself in his shoes in your head! (DUH!) I do not see it as racially profiling when the facts show one race is the cause for most of the crimes in an area, and you see a person of that race doing something you find suspicious how is that racially profiling?! Now If Trayvon was just walking looking down and it was not raining and still had his hands in his pockets and it wasnt night i would have not found it suspicious at all. The reasons i would as Zimmerman most likely did are the facts about that night. One it was night time and he was walking alone in a neighborhood known for alot of criminal activity at night. Would you be walking around at night just to get skittles and a drink in that neighborhood? Second it was raining! I know if it was night time and it was raining i would go walking to the store unless i had no other choice in that neighborhood, even then i wouldnt do it for a drink and skittles! All of these are reasons why a black male in a neighborhood like that would look suspicious to me. Would you find it suspicious if you were in such a neighborhood late at night and a latino man twice your size began following you from his truck, got out, and started pursuing you?
Yes i would! But the difference is i would not be walking around at night in the rain in a neighborhood like that!
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On March 30 2012 03:37 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 03:29 BrownBagin wrote:On March 30 2012 03:19 Crushinator wrote:On March 30 2012 03:02 BrownBagin wrote:
Now seeing as most of these inmates are black i would assume the same thing if i saw a black male walking in the rain with his hands in his pockets looking at houses. Does that make me a racists? Yes, in my honest opinion, that makes you a racist. But that's ok we are all racist to varying degrees, do try not to act on your racist biases like Zimmerman did though. First of all your picking one sentence out and using it to make me look like i am racist. I am not i have many god friends of other races. One of my good friends from work that i hang out with all the time is black. Now if you read about how his neighborhood is known for black male crimes why would he not see a black male looking suspicious the way Trayvon looked that night? You would think the same exact thing in that neighborhood! You defined your question quite well, I don't think the rest of it was relevant. Now I'm not saying you are a white supremacist, but having a black friend hardly disqualifies you from being racially biased. Concluding that someone is likely about to commit a crime solely because they are a black male walking in the rain with hands in their pockets is really very racist. Citing statistics does not change that at all, if anything trying to rationalize your bias makes it worse.
Who said he was about to commit a crime?! Neither I nor Zimmerman stated he was about to commit a crime. Zimmerman stating he looked suspicious.
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American gun laws have always blown my mind. Unfortunately, the inertia to change them is probably insurmountable so acts of stupidity, which in most other countries would lead to a black eye, instead end in fatality.
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A tragedy, but at least his death serves a purpose, I believe racism needs to be brought up in America (and in other places for that matter) for it to be extinguished.
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On March 30 2012 03:45 theSAiNT wrote:
American gun laws have always blown my mind. Unfortunately, the inertia to change them is probably insurmountable so acts of stupidity, which in most other countries would lead to a black eye, instead end in fatality.
He could've stabbed him in the throat and we'd be having the same discussion, the means isn't really relevant in this case, given they were clearly in a hand to hand struggle. Even if Zimmerman had fought back and punched Trayvon in the chest leading to a heart attack, same deal.
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ABC News doctored Zimmerman video
The Daily Caller has investigated the ABC News claim that police closed circuit television of George Zimmerman being brought to the Sanford, FL police station, in the news network claims that Zimmerman shows no sign of injury, in what appears to be an intentional effort by the network to cast doubt on Zimmerman’s accounting of events. Zimmerman claims he was forced to shoot high school football player Trayvon Martin after Martin knocked him to the ground and began slamming his head into the ground.
ABC News blatantly lied about what the video showed.
“A police surveillance video taken the night that Trayvon Martin was shot dead shows no blood or bruises on George Zimmerman,” ABC News reporter Matt Gutman wrote, noting that Zimmerman told police “he shot Martin after he was punched in the nose, knocked down and had his head slammed into the ground.”
ABC News reported that Zimmerman appears uninjured in the video. But a still image from the video indicates what appears to be a vertical laceration or scar several inches long.
In fact, not one [but] both camera views showed that Zimmerman has a laceration several inches long on the back of his head. Any blood had been cleaned up by the Fire Dept assets that had treated Zimmerman at the scene, and bruising would not have shown on the low-resolution video.
More disgusting is the obvious fact that ABC News used a strategically placed chyron (graphic) to cover up the back of Zimmerman’s head for their broadcast, covering up the video that would have disproven their story. View the video at the Daily Caller, and you’ll not that they did not even need a chyron, there was no need to transmit any additional visual data to explain the story.
The only logical reason the chyron exists is to cover-up Zimmerman’s wounds. ABC News doctored the video to sell a false narrative, in a dishonest attempt to brand a man a murderer. I’d be very interested to know if Zimmerman can pursue legal action against ABC for constructing this false narrative.
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On March 30 2012 03:24 BrownBagin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 03:12 lwwkicker wrote:On March 30 2012 03:02 BrownBagin wrote:
One thing i think a lot of people need to do is put themselves in Zimmerman's shoes, and put yourself in the same situation and play it out the exact way up to the point of the shooting. As a person who works under a law enforcement agency in Texas in the 3rd largest county jail in the U.S. by Zimmerman's story and witness's statements i would have done the same thing. My training has told me when in an altercation with an inmate an officer must keep the level of force just above that of the inmate. Now by Zimmerman's and the witness's statements he was underneath Trayvon and being beating, if he used a gun my conclusion is he could not fight back well enough to get Trayvon off and control him. I have two examples of inmate fights i was in the past two weeks that show the amount of force that is required to control another that is fighting. The first was a week ago, while i was doing a cell search we got a call that there was an inmate fight. I ran to the fight were 2 black males were punching each other, me and my sergeant fought to control and handcuff one inmate who was resisting to put his hands being his back. The second the inmate pushed back on my sergeant i grabbed him by the collar and put my leg on the inside of his thigh and pulled him down to the ground where we were able to handcuff him. My level of force went up above that of the inmates as soon as he raised his level of aggression. Now two nights ago i had another fight between two black males, i went into the cell and grabbed one of them from around his back and pulled him off the other inmate and brought him to the closest wall. The inmate did not fight back so i let go he did not resist so i did not have to use any other force to control him. Now ask was Zimmerman able to control Trayvon while being hit, so was his level of force being raised up to deadly force justifiable? If he did not pull his gun out would Trayvon have beaten him to death? These are very hard questions to ask from looking on the outside in. What does subduing inmates (known, convicted criminals) have to do with what was apparently a 'street fight' between two strangers? I, personally, would never put myself in Zimmerman's situation, and I would never conceal and carry, but that's just me. Now on the whole racial subject of Zimmerman going door to door. If the neighborhood was known to have black males committing crimes what is wrong with him letting people know to keep a look out for suspicious black males?! The jail i work in has over 15,000 inmates, over 90% of these inmates are black, 5% are hispanic, and the other 5% are split between whites and asians. Now seeing as most of these inmates are black i would assume the same thing if i saw a black male walking in the rain with his hands in his pockets looking at houses. Does that make me a racists? Or does it show that i have experienced enough to know that the chances a white/asian/hispanic males walking alone versus a black male walking alone and possibly them being up to no good are vastly great. Could Zimmerman also have been experienced enough to know about his neighborhood to know that he in fact did look like he was up to no good? From what the facts have shown that the neighborhood has had a huge amount of crimes from black males. So Zimmerman saw a black male walking alone at night, suspicious? Not really who cares. Now take it even further, Zimmerman seeing a black male walking alone at night while raining, suspicious? A little but not a lot. Once again even further! Zimmerman seeing a black male walking alone at night in the rain with his hands in his pockets, suspicious? Yes this is suspicious! Now again! Zimmerman seeing a black male walking alone at night while its raining with his hands in his pockets and looking at the houses, suspicious? YES VERY! Zimmerman found all of this very suspicious from his history and knowledge of his neighborhood previous crimes. More black people are convicted of crime, so let's start racially profiling them? If you gotta walk somewhere, you gotta walk, raining or not. Walking with his hands in his pockets? Seriously? I do that almost all the time. If it is cold (or rainy), expect to see me with my hands in my pockets 100% of the time. If you do not understand the comparison i was making of the amount of force Zimmerman used to the amount of force the law enforcement use then you should re-read what i wrote. I do not see why you would think to put yourself in Zimmerman's shoes literally. Put yourself in his shoes in your head! (DUH!) I do not see it as racially profiling when the facts show one race is the cause for most of the crimes in an area, and you see a person of that race doing something you find suspicious how is that racially profiling?! Now If Trayvon was just walking looking down and it was not raining and still had his hands in his pockets and it wasnt night i would have not found it suspicious at all. The reasons i would as Zimmerman most likely did are the facts about that night. One it was night time and he was walking alone in a neighborhood known for alot of criminal activity at night. Would you be walking around at night just to get skittles and a drink in that neighborhood? Second it was raining! I know if it was night time and it was raining i would go walking to the store unless i had no other choice in that neighborhood, even then i wouldnt do it for a drink and skittles! All of these are reasons why a black male in a neighborhood like that would look suspicious to me.
When most people think of a terrorist, they think of a person of middle-eastern descent, right? At least that is the impression that I get here in the states. I mean, we all think of Bin Laden when we think terrorist, no? So, based on your argument, it would then be appropriate to target them specifically at airports for security reasons, right? I mean, most terrorist are from the middle-east, so any person from the middle-east is suspicious to me? Turns out, you can't do that kind of stuff, at all. One race may be associated with the majority of the crime in that area, but you are using that as a justification of profiling them. You are judging them based solely on their race, and using very, very minor details (hands in pockets, raining, etc.) to justify the bias you have. Do black men need to stop walking around at night to avoid suspicion?
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On March 30 2012 03:35 Zorkmid wrote:
I am much the same as Iwwkicker, in that as a citizen, I wouldn't consider a kid in a hoodie to be suspicious, not would I start following him, nor would I carry an automatic firearm.
Trying to put myself inside of Zimmerman's mind, what would I be trying to accomplish by following Trayvon, or talking to him in an accusatory tone. Would I be trying to prevent him from committing some crime? Do I consider it possible that I could dissuade him from whatever crime he had in his head to commit, through intimidation or otherwise? Would I be following him if I didn't wasn't carrying a semi? Do I think it's my responsibility to stop this guy? Do I not believe that the dispatcher is going to send someone?
I'm having some trouble empathising with what George might have been thinking here. What do you all come up with when you try this exercise.
What he's thinking is that his neighborhood is ridden with crime and he's going to do his best to protect his community. He's stopped crimes in the past, he's solved crimes in the past.
The self-appointed captain of the neighborhood watch program is credited with cracking some crimes, and thwarting others.
“He once caught a thief and an arrest was made,” said Cynthia Wibker, secretary of the homeowners association. “He helped solve a lot of crimes.”
“Just two weeks before this shooting, George called me at my girlfriend’s house to say he saw some black guy doing surveillance at my house, because I had a left a window open,” Taaffe said. “He thwarted a potential burglary of my house.”
Zimmerman told neighbors about stolen laptops and unsavory characters. Ibrahim Rashada, a 25-year-old African American who works at U.S. Airways, once spotted young men cutting through the woods entering the complex on foot, and later learned items were stolen those days.
“It’s a gated community, but you can walk in and steal whatever you want,” Rashada’s wife, Quianna, said.
They discussed the topic with Zimmerman when the watch captain knocked on their door late last year. Zimmerman seemed friendly, helpful, and a “pretty cool dude,” Ibrahim Rashada said.
“He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever,” Robert Zimmerman wrote. “One black neighbor recently interviewed said she knew everything in the media was untrue and that she would trust George with her life. Another black neighbor said that George was the only one, black or white, who came and welcomed her to the community, offering any assistance he could provide. Recently, I met two black children George invited to a social event. I asked where they met George. They responded that he was their mentor.”
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249_p3/shooter-of-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html
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On March 30 2012 03:45 theSAiNT wrote:
American gun laws have always blown my mind. Unfortunately, the inertia to change them is probably insurmountable so acts of stupidity, which in most other countries would lead to a black eye, instead end in fatality.
Banning citizens from owning guns doesnt change a criminal from having one. This is one thing most people do not understand, a criminal will still get a firearm if they want whether or not the law allows them to have one or not. They are a called a criminal for a reason, they break laws...
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On March 30 2012 03:41 BrownBagin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 03:37 Crushinator wrote:On March 30 2012 03:29 BrownBagin wrote:On March 30 2012 03:19 Crushinator wrote:On March 30 2012 03:02 BrownBagin wrote:
Now seeing as most of these inmates are black i would assume the same thing if i saw a black male walking in the rain with his hands in his pockets looking at houses. Does that make me a racists? Yes, in my honest opinion, that makes you a racist. But that's ok we are all racist to varying degrees, do try not to act on your racist biases like Zimmerman did though. First of all your picking one sentence out and using it to make me look like i am racist. I am not i have many god friends of other races. One of my good friends from work that i hang out with all the time is black. Now if you read about how his neighborhood is known for black male crimes why would he not see a black male looking suspicious the way Trayvon looked that night? You would think the same exact thing in that neighborhood! You defined your question quite well, I don't think the rest of it was relevant. Now I'm not saying you are a white supremacist, but having a black friend hardly disqualifies you from being racially biased. Concluding that someone is likely about to commit a crime solely because they are a black male walking in the rain with hands in their pockets is really very racist. Citing statistics does not change that at all, if anything trying to rationalize your bias makes it worse. Who said he was about to commit a crime?! Neither I nor Zimmerman stated he was about to commit a crime. Zimmerman stating he looked suspicious.
He called the police. Also the word suspicious implies a suspicion, if this suspicion is not of a future criminal act then what? I don't want to derail this any further now by arguing semantics.
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On March 30 2012 03:48 Freddybear wrote:ABC News doctored Zimmerman videoThe Daily Caller has investigated the ABC News claim that police closed circuit television of George Zimmerman being brought to the Sanford, FL police station, in the news network claims that Zimmerman shows no sign of injury, in what appears to be an intentional effort by the network to cast doubt on Zimmerman’s accounting of events. Zimmerman claims he was forced to shoot high school football player Trayvon Martin after Martin knocked him to the ground and began slamming his head into the ground. ABC News blatantly lied about what the video showed. “A police surveillance video taken the night that Trayvon Martin was shot dead shows no blood or bruises on George Zimmerman,” ABC News reporter Matt Gutman wrote, noting that Zimmerman told police “he shot Martin after he was punched in the nose, knocked down and had his head slammed into the ground.” ABC News reported that Zimmerman appears uninjured in the video. But a still image from the video indicates what appears to be a vertical laceration or scar several inches long. In fact, not one [but] both camera views showed that Zimmerman has a laceration several inches long on the back of his head. Any blood had been cleaned up by the Fire Dept assets that had treated Zimmerman at the scene, and bruising would not have shown on the low-resolution video. More disgusting is the obvious fact that ABC News used a strategically placed chyron (graphic) to cover up the back of Zimmerman’s head for their broadcast, covering up the video that would have disproven their story. View the video at the Daily Caller, and you’ll not that they did not even need a chyron, there was no need to transmit any additional visual data to explain the story. The only logical reason the chyron exists is to cover-up Zimmerman’s wounds. ABC News doctored the video to sell a false narrative, in a dishonest attempt to brand a man a murderer. I’d be very interested to know if Zimmerman can pursue legal action against ABC for constructing this false narrative.
I'm 100% behind this. It definitely looks to me like a purposeful attempt to cover it up. You'll note, even, that at 53 seconds into the video, the officer checks the laceration on the back of Zimmerman's head.
The ABC news graphic is in a place that blocks, actually, a fair portion of the screen for no reason other than to cover Zimmerman's head, to hide his injuries.
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On March 30 2012 03:49 lwwkicker wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 03:24 BrownBagin wrote:On March 30 2012 03:12 lwwkicker wrote:On March 30 2012 03:02 BrownBagin wrote:
One thing i think a lot of people need to do is put themselves in Zimmerman's shoes, and put yourself in the same situation and play it out the exact way up to the point of the shooting. As a person who works under a law enforcement agency in Texas in the 3rd largest county jail in the U.S. by Zimmerman's story and witness's statements i would have done the same thing. My training has told me when in an altercation with an inmate an officer must keep the level of force just above that of the inmate. Now by Zimmerman's and the witness's statements he was underneath Trayvon and being beating, if he used a gun my conclusion is he could not fight back well enough to get Trayvon off and control him. I have two examples of inmate fights i was in the past two weeks that show the amount of force that is required to control another that is fighting. The first was a week ago, while i was doing a cell search we got a call that there was an inmate fight. I ran to the fight were 2 black males were punching each other, me and my sergeant fought to control and handcuff one inmate who was resisting to put his hands being his back. The second the inmate pushed back on my sergeant i grabbed him by the collar and put my leg on the inside of his thigh and pulled him down to the ground where we were able to handcuff him. My level of force went up above that of the inmates as soon as he raised his level of aggression. Now two nights ago i had another fight between two black males, i went into the cell and grabbed one of them from around his back and pulled him off the other inmate and brought him to the closest wall. The inmate did not fight back so i let go he did not resist so i did not have to use any other force to control him. Now ask was Zimmerman able to control Trayvon while being hit, so was his level of force being raised up to deadly force justifiable? If he did not pull his gun out would Trayvon have beaten him to death? These are very hard questions to ask from looking on the outside in. What does subduing inmates (known, convicted criminals) have to do with what was apparently a 'street fight' between two strangers? I, personally, would never put myself in Zimmerman's situation, and I would never conceal and carry, but that's just me. Now on the whole racial subject of Zimmerman going door to door. If the neighborhood was known to have black males committing crimes what is wrong with him letting people know to keep a look out for suspicious black males?! The jail i work in has over 15,000 inmates, over 90% of these inmates are black, 5% are hispanic, and the other 5% are split between whites and asians. Now seeing as most of these inmates are black i would assume the same thing if i saw a black male walking in the rain with his hands in his pockets looking at houses. Does that make me a racists? Or does it show that i have experienced enough to know that the chances a white/asian/hispanic males walking alone versus a black male walking alone and possibly them being up to no good are vastly great. Could Zimmerman also have been experienced enough to know about his neighborhood to know that he in fact did look like he was up to no good? From what the facts have shown that the neighborhood has had a huge amount of crimes from black males. So Zimmerman saw a black male walking alone at night, suspicious? Not really who cares. Now take it even further, Zimmerman seeing a black male walking alone at night while raining, suspicious? A little but not a lot. Once again even further! Zimmerman seeing a black male walking alone at night in the rain with his hands in his pockets, suspicious? Yes this is suspicious! Now again! Zimmerman seeing a black male walking alone at night while its raining with his hands in his pockets and looking at the houses, suspicious? YES VERY! Zimmerman found all of this very suspicious from his history and knowledge of his neighborhood previous crimes. More black people are convicted of crime, so let's start racially profiling them? If you gotta walk somewhere, you gotta walk, raining or not. Walking with his hands in his pockets? Seriously? I do that almost all the time. If it is cold (or rainy), expect to see me with my hands in my pockets 100% of the time. If you do not understand the comparison i was making of the amount of force Zimmerman used to the amount of force the law enforcement use then you should re-read what i wrote. I do not see why you would think to put yourself in Zimmerman's shoes literally. Put yourself in his shoes in your head! (DUH!) I do not see it as racially profiling when the facts show one race is the cause for most of the crimes in an area, and you see a person of that race doing something you find suspicious how is that racially profiling?! Now If Trayvon was just walking looking down and it was not raining and still had his hands in his pockets and it wasnt night i would have not found it suspicious at all. The reasons i would as Zimmerman most likely did are the facts about that night. One it was night time and he was walking alone in a neighborhood known for alot of criminal activity at night. Would you be walking around at night just to get skittles and a drink in that neighborhood? Second it was raining! I know if it was night time and it was raining i would go walking to the store unless i had no other choice in that neighborhood, even then i wouldnt do it for a drink and skittles! All of these are reasons why a black male in a neighborhood like that would look suspicious to me. When most people think of a terrorist, they think of a person of middle-eastern descent, right? At least that is the impression that I get here in the states. I mean, we all think of Bin Laden when we think terrorist, no? So, based on your argument, it would then be appropriate to target them specifically at airports for security reasons, right? I mean, most terrorist are from the middle-east, so any person from the middle-east is suspicious to me? Turns out, you can't do that kind of stuff, at all. One race may be associated with the majority of the crime in that area, but you are using that as a justification of profiling them. You are judging them based solely on their race, and using very, very minor details (hands in pockets, raining, etc.) to justify the bias you have. Do black men need to stop walking around at night to avoid suspicion?
There is a difference in profiling and seeing someone doing something that doesnt look right. If a cop pulled a black male over without a reason that would be profiling. But if that same cop pulled over a black male with a taillight out he has a reason to and it is not profiling. Zimmerman had his reasons to think Trayvon was suspicious in a neighborhood known for black male crimes. If a white male was sitting at a playground watching children would you think child molester? Now if that same white male was at a playground watching children while his kid was playing would you think the same thing? You fail to see the difference between profiling and seeing the reasons why a conclusion is made based on the area and the statistics of that area of crimes committed.
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On March 30 2012 03:48 Freddybear wrote:ABC News doctored Zimmerman videoThe Daily Caller has investigated the ABC News claim that police closed circuit television of George Zimmerman being brought to the Sanford, FL police station, in the news network claims that Zimmerman shows no sign of injury, in what appears to be an intentional effort by the network to cast doubt on Zimmerman’s accounting of events. Zimmerman claims he was forced to shoot high school football player Trayvon Martin after Martin knocked him to the ground and began slamming his head into the ground. ABC News blatantly lied about what the video showed. “A police surveillance video taken the night that Trayvon Martin was shot dead shows no blood or bruises on George Zimmerman,” ABC News reporter Matt Gutman wrote, noting that Zimmerman told police “he shot Martin after he was punched in the nose, knocked down and had his head slammed into the ground.” ABC News reported that Zimmerman appears uninjured in the video. But a still image from the video indicates what appears to be a vertical laceration or scar several inches long. In fact, not one [but] both camera views showed that Zimmerman has a laceration several inches long on the back of his head. Any blood had been cleaned up by the Fire Dept assets that had treated Zimmerman at the scene, and bruising would not have shown on the low-resolution video. More disgusting is the obvious fact that ABC News used a strategically placed chyron (graphic) to cover up the back of Zimmerman’s head for their broadcast, covering up the video that would have disproven their story. View the video at the Daily Caller, and you’ll not that they did not even need a chyron, there was no need to transmit any additional visual data to explain the story. The only logical reason the chyron exists is to cover-up Zimmerman’s wounds. ABC News doctored the video to sell a false narrative, in a dishonest attempt to brand a man a murderer. I’d be very interested to know if Zimmerman can pursue legal action against ABC for constructing this false narrative.
i added the Daily Caller's article to the OP. people have discussed this issue before, but it is up to debate whether it is a shadow or an actual laceration. i think the allegations that ABC doctored the video are questionable.
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That doctored footage is pretty disturbing. The graphic is awkwardly high, and you can obviously tell from 49-43 seconds in the clip that an officer steps behind him to take a look at the back of his head.
Every time we get some 'facts' there always seems to be a counter to it. I just want to start hearing about court proceedings, but it seems like we are going to be kept in the dark / misinformed about it until the end of it all.
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On March 30 2012 03:50 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 03:41 BrownBagin wrote:On March 30 2012 03:37 Crushinator wrote:On March 30 2012 03:29 BrownBagin wrote:On March 30 2012 03:19 Crushinator wrote:On March 30 2012 03:02 BrownBagin wrote:
Now seeing as most of these inmates are black i would assume the same thing if i saw a black male walking in the rain with his hands in his pockets looking at houses. Does that make me a racists? Yes, in my honest opinion, that makes you a racist. But that's ok we are all racist to varying degrees, do try not to act on your racist biases like Zimmerman did though. First of all your picking one sentence out and using it to make me look like i am racist. I am not i have many god friends of other races. One of my good friends from work that i hang out with all the time is black. Now if you read about how his neighborhood is known for black male crimes why would he not see a black male looking suspicious the way Trayvon looked that night? You would think the same exact thing in that neighborhood! You defined your question quite well, I don't think the rest of it was relevant. Now I'm not saying you are a white supremacist, but having a black friend hardly disqualifies you from being racially biased. Concluding that someone is likely about to commit a crime solely because they are a black male walking in the rain with hands in their pockets is really very racist. Citing statistics does not change that at all, if anything trying to rationalize your bias makes it worse. Who said he was about to commit a crime?! Neither I nor Zimmerman stated he was about to commit a crime. Zimmerman stating he looked suspicious. He called the police. Also the word suspicious implies a suspicion, if this suspicion is not of a future criminal act then what? I don't want to derail this any further now by arguing semantics.
There is still a difference between inferring that something could possibly happen and saying that something will happen. He said Trayvon looked suspicious. Where your saying Zimmerman said Trayvon was going to commit a crime. They are two completely different sentences meaning two different things. Possibility and Action.
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On March 30 2012 03:59 BrownBagin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 03:49 lwwkicker wrote:On March 30 2012 03:24 BrownBagin wrote:On March 30 2012 03:12 lwwkicker wrote:On March 30 2012 03:02 BrownBagin wrote:
One thing i think a lot of people need to do is put themselves in Zimmerman's shoes, and put yourself in the same situation and play it out the exact way up to the point of the shooting. As a person who works under a law enforcement agency in Texas in the 3rd largest county jail in the U.S. by Zimmerman's story and witness's statements i would have done the same thing. My training has told me when in an altercation with an inmate an officer must keep the level of force just above that of the inmate. Now by Zimmerman's and the witness's statements he was underneath Trayvon and being beating, if he used a gun my conclusion is he could not fight back well enough to get Trayvon off and control him. I have two examples of inmate fights i was in the past two weeks that show the amount of force that is required to control another that is fighting. The first was a week ago, while i was doing a cell search we got a call that there was an inmate fight. I ran to the fight were 2 black males were punching each other, me and my sergeant fought to control and handcuff one inmate who was resisting to put his hands being his back. The second the inmate pushed back on my sergeant i grabbed him by the collar and put my leg on the inside of his thigh and pulled him down to the ground where we were able to handcuff him. My level of force went up above that of the inmates as soon as he raised his level of aggression. Now two nights ago i had another fight between two black males, i went into the cell and grabbed one of them from around his back and pulled him off the other inmate and brought him to the closest wall. The inmate did not fight back so i let go he did not resist so i did not have to use any other force to control him. Now ask was Zimmerman able to control Trayvon while being hit, so was his level of force being raised up to deadly force justifiable? If he did not pull his gun out would Trayvon have beaten him to death? These are very hard questions to ask from looking on the outside in. What does subduing inmates (known, convicted criminals) have to do with what was apparently a 'street fight' between two strangers? I, personally, would never put myself in Zimmerman's situation, and I would never conceal and carry, but that's just me. Now on the whole racial subject of Zimmerman going door to door. If the neighborhood was known to have black males committing crimes what is wrong with him letting people know to keep a look out for suspicious black males?! The jail i work in has over 15,000 inmates, over 90% of these inmates are black, 5% are hispanic, and the other 5% are split between whites and asians. Now seeing as most of these inmates are black i would assume the same thing if i saw a black male walking in the rain with his hands in his pockets looking at houses. Does that make me a racists? Or does it show that i have experienced enough to know that the chances a white/asian/hispanic males walking alone versus a black male walking alone and possibly them being up to no good are vastly great. Could Zimmerman also have been experienced enough to know about his neighborhood to know that he in fact did look like he was up to no good? From what the facts have shown that the neighborhood has had a huge amount of crimes from black males. So Zimmerman saw a black male walking alone at night, suspicious? Not really who cares. Now take it even further, Zimmerman seeing a black male walking alone at night while raining, suspicious? A little but not a lot. Once again even further! Zimmerman seeing a black male walking alone at night in the rain with his hands in his pockets, suspicious? Yes this is suspicious! Now again! Zimmerman seeing a black male walking alone at night while its raining with his hands in his pockets and looking at the houses, suspicious? YES VERY! Zimmerman found all of this very suspicious from his history and knowledge of his neighborhood previous crimes. More black people are convicted of crime, so let's start racially profiling them? If you gotta walk somewhere, you gotta walk, raining or not. Walking with his hands in his pockets? Seriously? I do that almost all the time. If it is cold (or rainy), expect to see me with my hands in my pockets 100% of the time. If you do not understand the comparison i was making of the amount of force Zimmerman used to the amount of force the law enforcement use then you should re-read what i wrote. I do not see why you would think to put yourself in Zimmerman's shoes literally. Put yourself in his shoes in your head! (DUH!) I do not see it as racially profiling when the facts show one race is the cause for most of the crimes in an area, and you see a person of that race doing something you find suspicious how is that racially profiling?! Now If Trayvon was just walking looking down and it was not raining and still had his hands in his pockets and it wasnt night i would have not found it suspicious at all. The reasons i would as Zimmerman most likely did are the facts about that night. One it was night time and he was walking alone in a neighborhood known for alot of criminal activity at night. Would you be walking around at night just to get skittles and a drink in that neighborhood? Second it was raining! I know if it was night time and it was raining i would go walking to the store unless i had no other choice in that neighborhood, even then i wouldnt do it for a drink and skittles! All of these are reasons why a black male in a neighborhood like that would look suspicious to me. When most people think of a terrorist, they think of a person of middle-eastern descent, right? At least that is the impression that I get here in the states. I mean, we all think of Bin Laden when we think terrorist, no? So, based on your argument, it would then be appropriate to target them specifically at airports for security reasons, right? I mean, most terrorist are from the middle-east, so any person from the middle-east is suspicious to me? Turns out, you can't do that kind of stuff, at all. One race may be associated with the majority of the crime in that area, but you are using that as a justification of profiling them. You are judging them based solely on their race, and using very, very minor details (hands in pockets, raining, etc.) to justify the bias you have. Do black men need to stop walking around at night to avoid suspicion? There is a difference in profiling and seeing someone doing something that doesnt look right. If a cop pulled a black male over without a reason that would be profiling. But if that same cop pulled over a black male with a taillight out he has a reason to and it is not profiling. Zimmerman had his reasons to think Trayvon was suspicious in a neighborhood known for black male crimes. If a white male was sitting at a playground watching children would you think child molester? Now if that same white male was at a playground watching children while his kid was playing would you think the same thing? You fail to see the difference between profiling and seeing the reasons why a conclusion is made based on the area and the statistics of that area of crimes committed.
You don´t seem to understand the definition of racial profiling. You cite cases where you think racial profiling is ´bad´, and cases where you evidently think its ´good´. But they are all cases of racial profiling. You should probably look it up.
Edit: In response to your other reply, I actually used the word 'likely'.
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On March 30 2012 03:48 Freddybear wrote:ABC News doctored Zimmerman videoThe Daily Caller has investigated the ABC News claim that police closed circuit television of George Zimmerman being brought to the Sanford, FL police station, in the news network claims that Zimmerman shows no sign of injury, in what appears to be an intentional effort by the network to cast doubt on Zimmerman’s accounting of events. Zimmerman claims he was forced to shoot high school football player Trayvon Martin after Martin knocked him to the ground and began slamming his head into the ground. ABC News blatantly lied about what the video showed. “A police surveillance video taken the night that Trayvon Martin was shot dead shows no blood or bruises on George Zimmerman,” ABC News reporter Matt Gutman wrote, noting that Zimmerman told police “he shot Martin after he was punched in the nose, knocked down and had his head slammed into the ground.” ABC News reported that Zimmerman appears uninjured in the video. But a still image from the video indicates what appears to be a vertical laceration or scar several inches long. In fact, not one [but] both camera views showed that Zimmerman has a laceration several inches long on the back of his head. Any blood had been cleaned up by the Fire Dept assets that had treated Zimmerman at the scene, and bruising would not have shown on the low-resolution video. More disgusting is the obvious fact that ABC News used a strategically placed chyron (graphic) to cover up the back of Zimmerman’s head for their broadcast, covering up the video that would have disproven their story. View the video at the Daily Caller, and you’ll not that they did not even need a chyron, there was no need to transmit any additional visual data to explain the story. The only logical reason the chyron exists is to cover-up Zimmerman’s wounds. ABC News doctored the video to sell a false narrative, in a dishonest attempt to brand a man a murderer. I’d be very interested to know if Zimmerman can pursue legal action against ABC for constructing this false narrative.
Putting a logo on a video is not "doctoring" it by any definition of the word that I am familiar with. Maybe that's where they put the logo because they knew that's where everyone would be looking and they wanted the most publicity for their company. I noticed the anomaly on the back of his head as well but it's also possible that it's just a natural groove on his skull instead of a gash. In other words, the Daily Caller story is more biased than the story that is calling biased.
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There is a difference in profiling and seeing someone doing something that doesnt look right. If a cop pulled a black male over without a reason that would be profiling. But if that same cop pulled over a black male with a taillight out he has a reason to and it is not profiling.
In the case where the cop pulled over the black man with a broken tail light, the cop had a concrete reason to do so. Race in that situation is 100% irrelevant. He had a broken tail light, simply put. Zimmerman had zero concrete facts/details. He was suspicious of a black man. Trayvon didn't do anything other than walk down the sidewalk.
If a white male was sitting at a playground watching children would you think child molester? Now if that same white male was at a playground watching children while his kid was playing would you think the same thing? You fail to see the difference between profiling and seeing the reasons why a conclusion is made based on the area and the statistics of that area of crimes committed.
I would absolutely never think a white male who was alone in a park watching kids was a child molester. You are imposing your own bias on me. Depending on his mannerisms, I might think he was creepy or something. Now, if he was touching himself, then I might come to the conclusion that he was a child molester.
You fail to see the difference between bias and objective fact. Statistics are your means of rationalizing profiling, period.
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On March 30 2012 04:02 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2012 03:59 BrownBagin wrote:On March 30 2012 03:49 lwwkicker wrote:On March 30 2012 03:24 BrownBagin wrote:On March 30 2012 03:12 lwwkicker wrote:On March 30 2012 03:02 BrownBagin wrote:
One thing i think a lot of people need to do is put themselves in Zimmerman's shoes, and put yourself in the same situation and play it out the exact way up to the point of the shooting. As a person who works under a law enforcement agency in Texas in the 3rd largest county jail in the U.S. by Zimmerman's story and witness's statements i would have done the same thing. My training has told me when in an altercation with an inmate an officer must keep the level of force just above that of the inmate. Now by Zimmerman's and the witness's statements he was underneath Trayvon and being beating, if he used a gun my conclusion is he could not fight back well enough to get Trayvon off and control him. I have two examples of inmate fights i was in the past two weeks that show the amount of force that is required to control another that is fighting. The first was a week ago, while i was doing a cell search we got a call that there was an inmate fight. I ran to the fight were 2 black males were punching each other, me and my sergeant fought to control and handcuff one inmate who was resisting to put his hands being his back. The second the inmate pushed back on my sergeant i grabbed him by the collar and put my leg on the inside of his thigh and pulled him down to the ground where we were able to handcuff him. My level of force went up above that of the inmates as soon as he raised his level of aggression. Now two nights ago i had another fight between two black males, i went into the cell and grabbed one of them from around his back and pulled him off the other inmate and brought him to the closest wall. The inmate did not fight back so i let go he did not resist so i did not have to use any other force to control him. Now ask was Zimmerman able to control Trayvon while being hit, so was his level of force being raised up to deadly force justifiable? If he did not pull his gun out would Trayvon have beaten him to death? These are very hard questions to ask from looking on the outside in. What does subduing inmates (known, convicted criminals) have to do with what was apparently a 'street fight' between two strangers? I, personally, would never put myself in Zimmerman's situation, and I would never conceal and carry, but that's just me. Now on the whole racial subject of Zimmerman going door to door. If the neighborhood was known to have black males committing crimes what is wrong with him letting people know to keep a look out for suspicious black males?! The jail i work in has over 15,000 inmates, over 90% of these inmates are black, 5% are hispanic, and the other 5% are split between whites and asians. Now seeing as most of these inmates are black i would assume the same thing if i saw a black male walking in the rain with his hands in his pockets looking at houses. Does that make me a racists? Or does it show that i have experienced enough to know that the chances a white/asian/hispanic males walking alone versus a black male walking alone and possibly them being up to no good are vastly great. Could Zimmerman also have been experienced enough to know about his neighborhood to know that he in fact did look like he was up to no good? From what the facts have shown that the neighborhood has had a huge amount of crimes from black males. So Zimmerman saw a black male walking alone at night, suspicious? Not really who cares. Now take it even further, Zimmerman seeing a black male walking alone at night while raining, suspicious? A little but not a lot. Once again even further! Zimmerman seeing a black male walking alone at night in the rain with his hands in his pockets, suspicious? Yes this is suspicious! Now again! Zimmerman seeing a black male walking alone at night while its raining with his hands in his pockets and looking at the houses, suspicious? YES VERY! Zimmerman found all of this very suspicious from his history and knowledge of his neighborhood previous crimes. More black people are convicted of crime, so let's start racially profiling them? If you gotta walk somewhere, you gotta walk, raining or not. Walking with his hands in his pockets? Seriously? I do that almost all the time. If it is cold (or rainy), expect to see me with my hands in my pockets 100% of the time. If you do not understand the comparison i was making of the amount of force Zimmerman used to the amount of force the law enforcement use then you should re-read what i wrote. I do not see why you would think to put yourself in Zimmerman's shoes literally. Put yourself in his shoes in your head! (DUH!) I do not see it as racially profiling when the facts show one race is the cause for most of the crimes in an area, and you see a person of that race doing something you find suspicious how is that racially profiling?! Now If Trayvon was just walking looking down and it was not raining and still had his hands in his pockets and it wasnt night i would have not found it suspicious at all. The reasons i would as Zimmerman most likely did are the facts about that night. One it was night time and he was walking alone in a neighborhood known for alot of criminal activity at night. Would you be walking around at night just to get skittles and a drink in that neighborhood? Second it was raining! I know if it was night time and it was raining i would go walking to the store unless i had no other choice in that neighborhood, even then i wouldnt do it for a drink and skittles! All of these are reasons why a black male in a neighborhood like that would look suspicious to me. When most people think of a terrorist, they think of a person of middle-eastern descent, right? At least that is the impression that I get here in the states. I mean, we all think of Bin Laden when we think terrorist, no? So, based on your argument, it would then be appropriate to target them specifically at airports for security reasons, right? I mean, most terrorist are from the middle-east, so any person from the middle-east is suspicious to me? Turns out, you can't do that kind of stuff, at all. One race may be associated with the majority of the crime in that area, but you are using that as a justification of profiling them. You are judging them based solely on their race, and using very, very minor details (hands in pockets, raining, etc.) to justify the bias you have. Do black men need to stop walking around at night to avoid suspicion? There is a difference in profiling and seeing someone doing something that doesnt look right. If a cop pulled a black male over without a reason that would be profiling. But if that same cop pulled over a black male with a taillight out he has a reason to and it is not profiling. Zimmerman had his reasons to think Trayvon was suspicious in a neighborhood known for black male crimes. If a white male was sitting at a playground watching children would you think child molester? Now if that same white male was at a playground watching children while his kid was playing would you think the same thing? You fail to see the difference between profiling and seeing the reasons why a conclusion is made based on the area and the statistics of that area of crimes committed. You don´t seem to understand the definition of racial profiling. You cite cases where you think racial profiling is ´bad´, and cases where you evidently think its ´good´. But they are all cases of racial profiling. You should probably look it up. Edit: In response to your other reply, I actually used the word 'likely'.
I could see it being racial profiling if all Zimmerman stated is he saw a black male walking and to him that was suspicious. BUT Zimmerman stated he was walking alone in the rain with his a hand in his pants and a hand in his hoodie while looking at houses. Now once again by the FACTS from the neighborhood's crime, they show most of them have been committed by black males. Zimmerman saw a black male looking at houses with his hands in different places hidden looking at houses. He did not call the cops just because he was black.
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EPT
