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On April 28 2012 05:27 Tyree wrote:In the real world Stephen Fry must live in a rich, upper and/or middle class neighborhood, because his quote: Shows a lack of knowledge and showcases how he lives in a bubble. In most other countries, where the none rich people live, offending someone will get your ass beat, i am not talking about you getting into a argument, we are talking a fist fight here. That is how it is for majority of the world. Thus it makes him, and everyone else look like a internet tough guy with this whole "i dont care who i offend maaaan'!!" when in reality, trust me: you do. You just live in a safety bubble where you can feel like a big man. No matter what you think you can do, or how badass you have convinced yourself you are, or how many imaginary UFC titles you have won, trust me, there are people out there waiting for you just to give them a glance.
Stephen Fry is obviously referring to rational debates, not inner-city social interaction.
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On April 28 2012 06:20 sunprince wrote:
Stephen Fry is obviously referring to rational debates, not inner-city social interaction.
Furthermore, it doesn't make it any less valid just because people physically act out. One can just hope that we correct such mental deficiency.
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On April 28 2012 05:27 NicolBolas wrote:The problem I have with that quote is the problem I have with the use of a lot of quotes in this direction: whatever good it may have is undone by the fact that it's often used by assholes to defend themselves or others being assholes. In the United States, the government cannot infringe upon your right to say things (within reason). That does not extend to other people. If you say something offensive, you should not be surprised that people get offended. Free speech goes both ways; you can say whatever prickish things you want, but the rest of us don't have to put up with you and can ostracize you for it. There is often this idea that being offended by someone's statement is somehow the "fault" of the person being offended. That they should "stop being such cry babies," or "chill out a bit," or whatever. Why? If you have the right to say what you want, then so do I. Being offended by some asshole saying something dickish is just as much my right as it is your right to say something dickish. Show nested quote +On March 28 2012 18:49 Railxp wrote:
i think you've slightly misinterpreted what Stephen Fry meant.
he's attacking "I'm offended!" because it has been used in place of a honest argument.
"you should not be racist because i'm offended" is not really a valid point
"you should not be racist because all men are equal" now that is more of convincing argument. Ironically, people are now using his statement in place of an honest argument defending people who say offensive things. It all comes full circle. And quite frankly, I shouldn't have to explain why I'm offended by racism. I mean seriously, do we need to have a discussion about why <insert target X-ism> is bad and offensive? It's just a waste of words; the assholes don't believe "all people are equal" (because generally, if they did they wouldn't be assholes), so it's not a convencing argument to them. And the people who aren't assholes... will either be offended by it or understanding of why someone was offended by it. In short: it's just adding pointless extra words that we all know and decided long ago about our feelings on them. I see no need to have to make a "convincing argument" to people who are unconvincable.
I completely agree with this post. "Stop being offended" is such a silly thing to say. Fry is correct to point out "I'm offended by that" isn't an argument, but that doesn't mean it's a meaningless or useless thing to say. It's an expression of an attitude. If someone says "I really liked The Matrix", and you didn't like The Matrix, it would be ludicrous to say to them "Stop liking The Matrix!"
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On April 28 2012 06:55 Blennd wrote:
It's an expression of an attitude. If someone says "I really liked The Matrix", and you didn't like The Matrix, it would be ludicrous to say to them "Stop liking The Matrix!"
That's not analogous; in fact, it showcases the very point we're arguing. The person shouting "stop liking the Matrix" is the one claiming they're offended. It offers nothing to the conversation, and is a hollow statement.
Now, if they happened to actually elaborate and say, x, y and z are the reasons I didn't really enjoy the Matrix (or x, y, z are why that offends me or could you please not talk about x, y, z around me), then a discussion can be had and actually progressed from its current point; but on its own, it just serves nothing and no one.
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The only thing I hate is when people go
"I hope this isn't offensive, but..."
It makes me mad as fuck
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On April 28 2012 05:01 Cassel_Castle wrote:I read this a while ago and I think it puts an end to this silly semantics stuff. Show nested quote +I actually don’t care whether anyone is offended. Offense is a vague, amorphous concept, and it is completely subjective, as my friend pointed out. Anyone can claim to be deeply, mortally offended by anything, and it may very well be true; even if it’s not, there’s no way to dispute it. “You don’t really feel what you claim you feel,” is a line of argumentation that doesn’t get anyone anywhere.
What I care about is harm. What I ultimately said in this other argument was:
The problem with sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, classist, ableist, etc., remarks and “jokes” is not that they’re offensive, but that by relying for their meaning on harmful cultural narratives about privileged and marginalized groups they reinforce those narratives, and the stronger those narratives are, the stronger the implicit biases with which people are indoctrinated are. That’s real harm, not just “offense.” http://finenessandaccuracy.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/i-dont-care-if-youre-offended/
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!
This is why I shake my head when i see a bunch of kids post youtube videos about straight, white, middle class men saying some form of "who cares if something is offensive, suck it up!!!"
As a black male, it is not a racist joke(or comment) itself that bothers me, it is the implied racial bias that pervades the nation and influences interactions with many if not all of the people I meet. When someone uses the n-word, its a quick but harsh reminder that to many people my college education, do good personality, and non-aggressive demeaner will always be overshadowed by my own complexion. To some passing me by on the street, that is all they will note. Not only that, the comment that they say will no doubt be repeated again and fuel the bias of younger generations and hurt the self-esteem of younger black generations. They would probably call my negative reaction in that situation "being offended".
I am sure there is a similar feeling when it comes to homophobic, sexist, etc comments and those that are affected by them, but I can't speak directly for them.
Words are powerful. The sooner you realize that the quicker you gain some sense of maturity.
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On April 28 2012 07:52 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 06:55 Blennd wrote:
It's an expression of an attitude. If someone says "I really liked The Matrix", and you didn't like The Matrix, it would be ludicrous to say to them "Stop liking The Matrix!"
That's not analogous; in fact, it showcases the very point we're arguing. The person shouting "stop liking the Matrix" is the one claiming they're offended. It offers nothing to the conversation, and is a hollow statement. Now, if they happened to actually elaborate and say, x, y and z are the reasons I didn't really enjoy the Matrix (or x, y, z are why that offends me or could you please not talk about x, y, z around me), then a discussion can be had and actually progressed from its current point; but on its own, it just serves nothing and no one.
You missed the point. I explicitly state "I'm offended by that" isn't an argument. If someone uses it as one, you are correct in calling them out. However, many people also use "I'm offended" as an expression of an attitude. "I like the Matrix" is expressing an attitude. They are analogous. It doesn't offer much to a conversation, but at least you know where the person stands on the issue of the Matrix. If someone tells me "stop liking the Matrix", I honestly have no clue what they mean by that. It's a much more hollow statement than "I like the Matrix".
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On April 28 2012 07:56 Absurd Bunny wrote:
The only thing I hate is when people go
"I hope this isn't offensive, but..."
It makes me mad as fuck
Yeah. It's like as if they are in fact egging you to get offended.
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EPT
