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Getting offended - Page 14
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:09 DoubleReed wrote: Well it doesn't have to be that extreme. This isn't uncommon rhetoric in today's world. Comparing gay sex to bestiality. Would you not agree that is degrading to the dignity of any gay person? Do you differentiate whether or not that's offensive to gay people individually, gay people as a whole, or humanity as a whole? Suggesting that female contraception is only about sex rather than all the health benefits trivializes women's health issues. Are you simply differentiating whether a woman is offended as a woman or as a human? I don't really find these distinctions very compelling. Do you? ControlMonkey probably says it better than I did: "But there is no value in expressing your beliefs in a fashion which deliberately belittles others. In the same way there is no value in becoming offended when others express their beliefs in a completely reasonable fashion." His post is very good, I would refer you to that post for lots of clearer examples and well written arguments. EDIT: The two posts below me are also very good at explaining why saying you are offended doesn't contribute to an argument. | ||
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Enearde
France265 Posts
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:09 DoubleReed wrote:Comparing gay sex to bestiality. Would you not agree that is degrading to the dignity of any gay person? Do you differentiate whether or not that's offensive to gay people individually, gay people as a whole, or humanity as a whole? The key is that while people agree with you that the comparison is offensive, the offense isn't the real issue. The comparison is problematic for many reasons, such as being objectively wrong, so why focus on the offense when you can instead address the real issue? It's useless to simply say "I'm offended." It's a dishonest way of saying "shut up" and a logical fallacy. Instead, try to think about why you're offended, so that you can give a logical response. Merely saying "I'm offended" serves the same function as claiming that the argument is wrong without any justification for your position. | ||
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Tor
Canada231 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:43 sunprince wrote: The key is that while people agree with you that the comparison is offensive, the offense isn't the real issue. The comparison is problematic for many reasons, such as being objectively wrong, so why focus on the offense when you can instead address the real issue? It's useless to simply say "I'm offended." It's a dishonest way of saying "shut up" and a logical fallacy. Instead, try to think about why, you're offended, so that you can give a logical response. Merely saying "I'm offended" serves the same function as claiming that the argument is wrong without any justification for your position. True. It's important to not though that being offended is not useless, if being offended encourages discussion or enables a positive social movement, it can actually be healthy. Stephen Fry's quote in the OP really isn't that profound, he's simply stating his dislike of whiner's and those who would hide behind a blanket phrase without facilitating a conversation are, in his view, whiners. | ||
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whiterabbit
2675 Posts
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:25 Xiphos wrote: Hey if someone have stated something that goes against my believes, then I will be all means refute his argument by making him look like a total idiot in from the general public and there is absolutely nothing that you can do to alter this fact! I don't know if English is your first language, but if it is, you might want to do it verbally. | ||
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GloPikkle
United States197 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:59 whiterabbit wrote: Meh. Words are just words. I never get offended and I really don't care if my honesty will offend someone. Generally we should all just grow a pair. :/ You never get offended? Really? That seems pretty unlikely. MORE likely is that nobody who's opinion you care about has been exceptionally rude to you about something that you care deeply about. Or nobody's opinion matters to you (which in general can be a good thing, but is not dogmatically true). Or you don't care about anything deeply (which is true for many and that's a tragedy). | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On March 27 2012 08:43 sunprince wrote: The key is that while people agree with you that the comparison is offensive, the offense isn't the real issue. The comparison is problematic for many reasons, such as being objectively wrong, so why focus on the offense when you can instead address the real issue? It's useless to simply say "I'm offended." It's a dishonest way of saying "shut up" and a logical fallacy. Instead, try to think about why, you're offended, so that you can give a logical response. Merely saying "I'm offended" serves the same function as claiming that the argument is wrong without any justification for your position. People are offended when others degrade or trivialize their dignity. That's the "why". I can't think of an instance where that's not true. The arguments that focus on trivializing serious issues are more obvious in this sense (rather than the ones that simply insult people). Where beating your wife every now and then isn't considered a big deal. You know, as long as it doesn't become habitual. My point is that "insulting dignity" and "being offended" is the same thing. I don't see why one is a logical fallacy and the other is considered to be a reasonable point. It just sounds like people are being swayed by the eloquence of "Human Dignity" and being condescending toward "Being Offended." What's the difference? | ||
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Cocoba
Canada352 Posts
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emc
United States3088 Posts
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ropumar
Brazil111 Posts
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On March 27 2012 09:11 DoubleReed wrote:People are offended when others degrade or trivialize their dignity. That's the "why". I can't think of an instance where that's not true. Saying that your dignity is being insulted is equivalent to saying you're offended, as you noted. So the question is still: why do you feel your dignity is insulted? In the case of comparing homosexuality to bestiality, an example reason is that it's objectively an incorrect argument. Example: "I'm offended that you compare homosexuality and bestiality" <- fallacious "Comparing homosexuality and bestiality is incorrect because the former does not cause harm to animals <- non-fallacious On March 27 2012 09:11 DoubleReed wrote:Where beating your wife every now and then isn't considered a big deal. You know, as long as it doesn't become habitual. That's another perfect example. Beating your wife isn't wrong because it's offensive. Beating your wife is wrong because it causes harm to a loved one. You keep focusing on the offense, instead of what really matters. On March 27 2012 09:11 DoubleReed wrote:My point is that "insulting dignity" and "being offended" is the same thing. I don't see why one is a logical fallacy and the other is considered to be a reasonable point. It just sounds like people are being swayed by the eloquence of "Human Dignity" and being condescending toward "Being Offended." What's the difference? You're assuming that I'm swayed by the eloquence of "human dignity", but I'm really not. It's the same fallacy as "being offended". | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
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divito
Canada1213 Posts
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
... ok other people might not agree so easily so here's my take on this. On March 27 2012 02:20 HereAndNow wrote: To be honest, Stephen Fry annoys me a little after this. Any anti-homosexual or pro-religious statement will cause him to rant and go off on tirades, but apparently anything he says is vindicated because people are too easily offended? This is the most important point IMO, and it's exactly right. If someone says something ignorant and homophobic for instance, Stephen Fry will destroy him because he's intelligent and eloquent and knows what to answer. This "I'm offended" thing is a cop out for people who are not as smart as Fry. It's what allows stupid people to have their way even when they don't know what to say. You don't have to say "I'm offended" about racist, homophobic nazis because it's easy to see and tell what's wrong about it, you can destroy them publicly without the use of the magic phrase. So what group is more offended than any other? Religious people. Because they're the ones who refuse any argument, they just don't want anyone to disagree with them and they're not ready to talk about it. This is what's so dangerous about people who are offended all the time. It kills all discussions because of the values of one small group, no matter how insignificant or stupid it is. If we keep going down this road everything will be found offensive by at least one social group, and no debate will be possible. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44250 Posts
On March 27 2012 02:07 RA wrote: Bottomline isn't just about being less whiny or crybaby, it's about being less cocky, insensitve and rude, too. I agree with this, and it's rather common sense. It's a two-way street; there's a responsibility of both parties involved. Going out of your way to purposely insult someone for no constructive reason whatsoever is just you being a douchebag, and it's perfectly justifiable for the victim to become offended. On the other hand, sometimes constructive criticism or feedback (or just plain "reality") calls for certain things to be said, but with some level of tact, and you should accept the truth (which may sometimes hurt). While there are sometimes shades of gray, I think the vast majority of situations are relatively clear cut as to whether the speaker was being offensive or whether the victim was being too thin-skinned. | ||
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Zahir
United States947 Posts
Let me give you an example: you're out with a loved one, spouse, girlfriend, little sibling, your child, whatever... and some douchebag comes up and starts saying all kinds of nasty hate-filled crap, calling the person you're with all manner of insulting and demeaning names, and trying to be as hurtful as possible without doing anything illegal, and your girlfriend, little brother, mom or whoever is sitting there in tears... You're not going to get offended? You're going to instead tell the person you're with, "you shouldn't get offended it's just words", and do nothing? Really?? And if you WOULD get offended (which I hope you would) it does not take a huge mental leap to realize that others should and will get offended if you're the one spouting the obnoxious, hurtful shit. I'm not saying it's right to up and get offended when clearly no harm is meant. And I would defend anyone's right to free speech. You can be the most spiteful, BM human being of all time, fine. But I also defend people's right to react to free speech, in ways that are within THEIR rights. Such as disinviting you from their home, property, business, etc. And since basically anywhere but your own house is gonna be someone else's property, if you're BM enough you're apt to get kicked out of every forum, workplace, commercial area, public space, internet forum etc. that you go shittying up with your hate speech. That's not a restriction on your free speech, that's just people reacting to how much of a flaming, mannerless douchebag you are. | ||
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Tor
Canada231 Posts
On March 27 2012 09:31 divito wrote: He's right. Being offended is just a more legitimate way of whining. No, being offended is human nature. Being ignorant and using only a feeling to dismiss a point of view rather than do something about the issue that offends you is whining. | ||
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Abort Retry Fail
2636 Posts
Especially in dealing with people in the internet. I think its part of the maturity in life though, internet or real interaction. You gotta know which battle you can fight and which you can avoid. I normally dont get offended. If I do, I just calm down and repay in kind. Nothing Extraordinary | ||
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