On March 23 2012 20:56 xavra41 wrote: Sorry if i was too lazy to watch the videos lol but since i disagree with the foundation of your ideas there wasn't any point. You're ideas aren't new and they have all been tried in many ways by various governments. Educated consumers are almost always better concerning their own self interest. This is why these mandates are bad news for liberty. The media is part of the market so no they are not "controlling" people. People are acting out of their own values ( i would mention evolutionary psych but im too lazy) and just because their values don't match yours dont make them wrong. as you said in your last sentence your ideas are socialist and because i don't trust the government with the responsibility you want to give them is why i disagree.
Xavra, get this into your thick skull. The USA spends more money on healthcare than any other country in the world, and yet you don't even rank in the top 35 in the world. Are you a complete and utter moron? Does that system look like it's working? Your healthcare system DOES NOT WORK. Understand? Whereas, our 'BIG SCARY SOCIALIST' systems in Europe, are a lot more efficient than yours.
Wake up, you uneducated buffoon. Stop parrotting what you hear on fox news, and stop randomly shouting stuff about "LIBERTY, PERSUIT OF HAPPINESS, LAND OF THE FREE YEEHAW"
Your system needs to change, let it happen. Stop trying to live in the 18th century and grow up.
On March 23 2012 20:39 xavra41 wrote: Wow Satire... i am not going to spend a whole hour watching videos and reading that block. You are pro something you are pro-"social equity" (aka income redistribution). Also stop making it sound like people are the victims lol. Healthy food can be cheaper than fast food so i don't know what you are talking about. If people are too stupid to find this cheap healthy food (cuz they are in the frozen pizza aisle instead of the frozen vegetable aisle) then that is their fault. Since your whole argument is based on government hating health food then check our the Paleo Diet thread for cheap ways of eating healthy you will be surprised how cheap it is. If people started demanding health food more it would drive the price down in the long run do the available amount of capital and thus further help. Also middle class and above people are fat so price isn't the problem it is consumer choice. But then who is to say that eating bad food is wrong? You? lol. We should be allowed to pursue happiness even if it means diabetes.
I am not going to involve myself when it comes to the topic, cause i am not deeply enough into the american political system, and how your health care system works, to udnerstand what the hell is going on.
However, i dislike you saying, that you are not going to read and listen to the arguments brought forward by other people. Does not seem intellectually honest to me.
If you are implying that you need to disprove every single point in order to disprove something then your wrong. I disproved his fundamental assumptions thus his argument had zero validity. It is like somebody saying this jacket is yellow, but then I said that jacket is actually a chihuahua.
Can we not go too far into the flamebait of US Healthcare vs Other Healthcare ><. Pretty sure there's a thread for that already and anyways whenever this debate happens it ends up creating a dead-end clusterfuck. This thread was intended more as a legality/constitutionality one concerning perhaps the most important Supreme Court case of our generation.
Court will rule 5-4 against the mandate. There's nothing in the Commerce Clause or the Necessary and Proper clause that allows the government to compel you to enter into commerce where you otherwise would not for the purpose of regulating that commerce to achieve an end Congress deems beneficial.
I can buy a car but I don't have to purchase a driver's license (which is what you do, you purchase it from the DMV) or car insurance unless I make the choice to drive it on public roads. I don't have to buy a gun and go through the licensing and registration process for that. Anything the government compels me to do, it is a result of me making a free choice to initiate some kind of action beforehand. The only exception to this is registering for the Selective Service in case there is ever a draft. I don't even have to serve on juries, I have to make the decision to register to vote first. I can choose not to have an income at a level that is hit by the income tax.
Obamacare sets this on its head by mandating not some kind of civic duty, but rather compelling me to enter into commerce so it can then regulate that commerce. The government doesn't have the right to force me to buy anything.
Either the Court will strike it down, or there will be a massive civil disobedience campaign against the mandate starting in 2014. People will simply refuse to sign up and refuse to pay the penalty, numbering in the millions. I'll be one of them.
On March 23 2012 22:06 DeepElemBlues wrote:I can buy a car but I don't have to purchase a driver's license (which is what you do, you purchase it from the DMV) or car insurance unless I make the choice to drive it on public roads. I don't have to buy a gun and go through the licensing and registration process for that. Anything the government compels me to do, it is a result of me making a free choice to initiate some kind of action beforehand. The only exception to this is registering for the Selective Service in case there is ever a draft. I don't even have to serve on juries, I have to make the decision to register to vote first. I can choose not to have an income at a level that is hit by the income tax.
You expose other people in society to your health. If your health is compromised due to a lack of healthcare, then you are more likely to infect others with contagious diseases. Since the vast majority of people do come into contact with others or simply close enough to indirectly infect others, it is reasonable to require health insurance or a penalty to account for the negative externality you generate upon public health.
On March 23 2012 22:06 DeepElemBlues wrote:People will simply refuse to sign up and refuse to pay the penalty, numbering in the millions. I'll be one of them.
Considering the penalty will be part of your taxes, good luck with that.
On March 23 2012 22:06 DeepElemBlues wrote:I can buy a car but I don't have to purchase a driver's license (which is what you do, you purchase it from the DMV) or car insurance unless I make the choice to drive it on public roads. I don't have to buy a gun and go through the licensing and registration process for that. Anything the government compels me to do, it is a result of me making a free choice to initiate some kind of action beforehand. The only exception to this is registering for the Selective Service in case there is ever a draft. I don't even have to serve on juries, I have to make the decision to register to vote first. I can choose not to have an income at a level that is hit by the income tax.
You expose other people in society to your health. If your health is compromised due to a lack of healthcare, then you are more likely to infect others with contagious diseases. Since the vast majority of people do come into contact with others or simply close enough to indirectly infect others, it is reasonable to require health insurance or a penalty to account for the negative externality you generate upon public health.
On March 23 2012 22:06 DeepElemBlues wrote:People will simply refuse to sign up and refuse to pay the penalty, numbering in the millions. I'll be one of them.
Considering the penalty will be part of your taxes, good luck with that.
Blowhard conservatives don't believe in luck silly. All poor people are lazy, don't you know?
On March 23 2012 22:06 DeepElemBlues wrote:I can buy a car but I don't have to purchase a driver's license (which is what you do, you purchase it from the DMV) or car insurance unless I make the choice to drive it on public roads. I don't have to buy a gun and go through the licensing and registration process for that. Anything the government compels me to do, it is a result of me making a free choice to initiate some kind of action beforehand. The only exception to this is registering for the Selective Service in case there is ever a draft. I don't even have to serve on juries, I have to make the decision to register to vote first. I can choose not to have an income at a level that is hit by the income tax.
You expose other people in society to your health. If your health is compromised due to a lack of healthcare, then you are more likely to infect others with contagious diseases. Since the vast majority of people do come into contact with others or simply close enough to indirectly infect others, it is reasonable to require health insurance or a penalty to account for the negative externality you generate upon public health.
On March 23 2012 22:06 DeepElemBlues wrote:People will simply refuse to sign up and refuse to pay the penalty, numbering in the millions. I'll be one of them.
Considering the penalty will be part of your taxes, good luck with that.
Blowhard conservatives don't believe in luck silly. All poor people are lazy, don't you know?
Are we talking about the real poor or are we talking about the people who live in subsidized apartments that have microwaves, refrigerators, ovens, and cable who are also considered 'poor'?
On March 23 2012 22:06 DeepElemBlues wrote:I can buy a car but I don't have to purchase a driver's license (which is what you do, you purchase it from the DMV) or car insurance unless I make the choice to drive it on public roads. I don't have to buy a gun and go through the licensing and registration process for that. Anything the government compels me to do, it is a result of me making a free choice to initiate some kind of action beforehand. The only exception to this is registering for the Selective Service in case there is ever a draft. I don't even have to serve on juries, I have to make the decision to register to vote first. I can choose not to have an income at a level that is hit by the income tax.
You expose other people in society to your health. If your health is compromised due to a lack of healthcare, then you are more likely to infect others with contagious diseases. Since the vast majority of people do come into contact with others or simply close enough to indirectly infect others, it is reasonable to require health insurance or a penalty to account for the negative externality you generate upon public health.
On March 23 2012 22:06 DeepElemBlues wrote:People will simply refuse to sign up and refuse to pay the penalty, numbering in the millions. I'll be one of them.
Considering the penalty will be part of your taxes, good luck with that.
Blowhard conservatives don't believe in luck silly. All poor people are lazy, don't you know?
Are we talking about the real poor or are we talking about the people who live in subsidized apartments that have microwaves, refrigerators, ovens, and cable who are also considered 'poor'?
Poor has always been and will always be a relative term. Of course there are people in the world that are worse off than just about anyone in the USA, but that doesn't mean that the poorness "poor" people in america experience is something to just write off cause they have a microwave. Being poor in america can mean living in a shitty neighborhood with higher crime rates, it can mean you won't be able to afford good and healthy food, it can that you won't afford to buy new clothes for your children or it can mean having to sell your car to be able to afford cancer treament. Also, having a big income difference in a society tears it apart and divides rich from the poor in a very hurtful way.
On March 23 2012 22:06 DeepElemBlues wrote: Court will rule 5-4 against the mandate. There's nothing in the Commerce Clause or the Necessary and Proper clause that allows the government to compel you to enter into commerce where you otherwise would not for the purpose of regulating that commerce to achieve an end Congress deems beneficial.
I can buy a car but I don't have to purchase a driver's license (which is what you do, you purchase it from the DMV) or car insurance unless I make the choice to drive it on public roads. I don't have to buy a gun and go through the licensing and registration process for that. Anything the government compels me to do, it is a result of me making a free choice to initiate some kind of action beforehand. The only exception to this is registering for the Selective Service in case there is ever a draft. I don't even have to serve on juries, I have to make the decision to register to vote first. I can choose not to have an income at a level that is hit by the income tax.
Obamacare sets this on its head by mandating not some kind of civic duty, but rather compelling me to enter into commerce so it can then regulate that commerce. The government doesn't have the right to force me to buy anything.
Either the Court will strike it down, or there will be a massive civil disobedience campaign against the mandate starting in 2014. People will simply refuse to sign up and refuse to pay the penalty, numbering in the millions. I'll be one of them.
The issue I see with your examples is that healthcare is not just a private matter. If someone uninsured requires treatment and can't pay the cost, that cost gets passed down to EVERYONE. Health issues are usually not something that is planned for. Shit happens.
On March 23 2012 21:02 Red112 wrote: Xavra, get this into your thick skull. The USA spends more money on healthcare than any other country in the world, and yet you don't even rank in the top 35 in the world. Are you a complete and utter moron? Does that system look like it's working? Your healthcare system DOES NOT WORK. Understand? Whereas, our 'BIG SCARY SOCIALIST' systems in Europe, are a lot more efficient than yours.
Wake up, you uneducated buffoon. Stop parrotting what you hear on fox news, and stop randomly shouting stuff about "LIBERTY, PERSUIT OF HAPPINESS, LAND OF THE FREE YEEHAW"
Your system needs to change, let it happen. Stop trying to live in the 18th century and grow up.
User was warned for this post
Why did this guy get warned? One of the best posts in this thread so far. Do we want quality posts or don't we want them? Really, where is the old TL?
And when did US get a special status on TL? We used to be mostly non-US people. But now you can bash any country but if you bash the US, you will instantly be warned. When I see that I just point and laugh.
I'm starting to worry about the american people more and more. Ever since the "War On Terrorism" .. the stripping of your constitutional rights hastened. I know that people have been trying to break the constitution since it came about but in the last decade or so its been spinning out of control.
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Benjamin Franklin
On March 23 2012 21:02 Red112 wrote: Xavra, get this into your thick skull. The USA spends more money on healthcare than any other country in the world, and yet you don't even rank in the top 35 in the world. Are you a complete and utter moron? Does that system look like it's working? Your healthcare system DOES NOT WORK. Understand? Whereas, our 'BIG SCARY SOCIALIST' systems in Europe, are a lot more efficient than yours.
Wake up, you uneducated buffoon. Stop parrotting what you hear on fox news, and stop randomly shouting stuff about "LIBERTY, PERSUIT OF HAPPINESS, LAND OF THE FREE YEEHAW"
Your system needs to change, let it happen. Stop trying to live in the 18th century and grow up.
User was warned for this post
Why did this guy get warned? One of the best posts in this thread so far. Do we want quality posts or don't we want them? Really, where is the old TL?
And when did US get a special status on TL? We used to be mostly non-US people. But now you can bash any country but if you bash the US, you will instantly be warned. When I see that I just point and laugh.
He was probably warned not for the content of his opinions but his personal insults at Xavra ("you uneducated buffoon", "Are you a complete and utter moron?", "get this into your thick skull").
On March 23 2012 22:06 DeepElemBlues wrote:I can buy a car but I don't have to purchase a driver's license (which is what you do, you purchase it from the DMV) or car insurance unless I make the choice to drive it on public roads. I don't have to buy a gun and go through the licensing and registration process for that. Anything the government compels me to do, it is a result of me making a free choice to initiate some kind of action beforehand. The only exception to this is registering for the Selective Service in case there is ever a draft. I don't even have to serve on juries, I have to make the decision to register to vote first. I can choose not to have an income at a level that is hit by the income tax.
You expose other people in society to your health. If your health is compromised due to a lack of healthcare, then you are more likely to infect others with contagious diseases. Since the vast majority of people do come into contact with others or simply close enough to indirectly infect others, it is reasonable to require health insurance or a penalty to account for the negative externality you generate upon public health.
On March 23 2012 22:06 DeepElemBlues wrote:People will simply refuse to sign up and refuse to pay the penalty, numbering in the millions. I'll be one of them.
Considering the penalty will be part of your taxes, good luck with that.
Blowhard conservatives don't believe in luck silly. All poor people are lazy, don't you know?
Are we talking about the real poor or are we talking about the people who live in subsidized apartments that have microwaves, refrigerators, ovens, and cable who are also considered 'poor'?
Poor has always been and will always be a relative term. Of course there are people in the world that are worse off than just about anyone in the USA, but that doesn't mean that the poorness "poor" people in america experience is something to just write off cause they have a microwave. Being poor in america can mean living in a shitty neighborhood with higher crime rates, it can mean you won't be able to afford good and healthy food, it can that you won't afford to buy new clothes for your children or it can mean having to sell your car to be able to afford cancer treament. Also, having a big income difference in a society tears it apart and divides rich from the poor in a very hurtful way.
So if its always relative, there will also ways be 'poor' people. 'Poor' americans are so much better off than the rest of the world its scary. Its impossible to starve in the United States, baring wondering out into the desert etc. Some people might have to buy close from thrift stores, just because you dont go around riding on 24 inch rims doesnt mean you are poor.
I don't approve of Obamacare. Most of the money that goes into it ends up going to insurance companies. The US needs a real universal healthcare system. The way it is right now, billions of taxpayer dollars are going straight into the pockets of the insurance industry. That's why the US spends more money per person on healthcare than any other country but still has significantly inferior care. A baby born in Cuba last year was more likely to survive childbirth than a baby born in the US.
Voltaire is as right as he can possibly be. All the fear that a universal healthcare system is going to cost taxpayers so much money , especially in bad economic times, is uncalled for... A lot of that money will be the substitute of the huge profits insurance companies and some private hospitals made. And sure , there will be people who will "abuse" the system, but that is far less important than true healthcare for all and everyone. But i still support obamacare, it's better than nothing!
"Obamacare" is a mediocre compromise imo. I dont like the idea of the government forcing us to buy health insurance from a private company, if we all have to buy it then shouldn't the government run it so we have control over it instead of a private company? Universal healthcare is the way to go.
EPT
