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On May 02 2012 21:11 Faya wrote:
I'm so sick of this country where it used to be a land of debate, since sarko is prime minister, debates became schoolyard fight, with the same intellectual level as kids. I'm so sick of the right wing in France, left isn't 'love' and right isn't 'hate', it is just : left= concerned for most of the population, right=concerned for myself (and maybe my family).
This makes any debates sterile as fuck, results of the election will just show if the people of France is just shitty or if they show a little faith in humanity, somehow.
And finally, I am sick of my people of France, hating for 5 years the way of managing the country by Sarkozy by 75%, realising every now and then how the president is implicated in many dark affairs, increasing the debt of France by 2/3 to gifts to the richest etc,
AND NOW WHAT ? The second turn shows 53%/47% in the latest poll ? what made you change your point of view ? Or maybe one fourth of the french people is just like rats, running away when everything goes wrong and showing up from nowhere when horizons look better. You guys are the reason why americans and the rest of the world are making fun of us, as fleeing chickens, and if you're making sarkozy win again, after what he has done, you're just making them right.
I keep hope, sarkozy isn't on his way to win, and i'm already happy for the next 5 years, knowing that right-wing supporters will hide and have to lie, as they do all the time, to protect themselves and their money...
Do you know that there had been an international crisis? Certainly, figures are bad for Nicolas Sarkozy, but i'm sure that if Mme Royal had been president for 2007, France would be in Grece's situation. Look at all Socialist country (spain, greece, portugal). There are in a lots of trouble now. If reforms like the retirement reforms had not be made, France would be with more debt that currently!
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On May 02 2012 21:20 -_-Quails wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 20:51 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:26 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:12 Geiko wrote:
When I hear Mélanchon say "When you see a rich person, you've got to take his money" (lui faire les poches) I can't help but ask myself where all the "love" between frenchmen is... This is a lie, from Sarkozy. Sarkozy manipulated Melenchon discourse, and everybody repeated that like idiots. Melenchon said "on va leur faire les poches" as a metaphor talking about ultra-rich people with abusive salaries. Like only a complete and utter moron would have thought that he was saying that when you see a rich person you have to rob him. But well, nobody checked and Sarkozy's trademrak outrance and manipulative deformation of people's speech worked perfectly. So, you didn't "hear" anything especially from JLM. You just repeated. Prêt à penser, welcome in Sarkozie. Don't you think "on va leur faire les poches" is a rather aggressive statement that can only generate hatred and violence ? Btw you didn't address the second part of my post. Well, that's not the problem. Between -"On va leur faire les poches", meaning we need to tax lot more ultra rich people (just that you know, the average difference between top and lowest salaries in society of the CAC 40 has been multplied by 20 in thirty years) in a meeting, and -"Melenchon says that when you see a rich you have to "lui faire les poches"", meaning physically attack the rich and rob them, there is a big difference. So either you didn't listen to JLM and you repeated what Sarkozy says, and you just get manipulated like an idiot. Either you know that you are completely transforming a militant statement and you are being blatantly dishonest. Don't change the subject, I am talking about this precise sentence that you said. It's a problem when you guys are telling me that left vs right is a battle of love vs hate (sic). Please don't resort to insults such as "idiot", I'm not trying to be aggressive, lets keep this civil  "on va leur faire les poches" literally means in French: "we are going to rob them". The use of that sentence is not innocent by JLM and he knows very well this will exacerbate the Anti-Rich sentiment that he is basing his campaign on. Because believe or not, in France, making money is something you should be ashamed of. And btw, you still didn't address the second part of my previous post. I agree with you so much Geiko. In france, it's a shame to be rich. In france when you support Sarkozy you are a selfish, and when you support Hollande, you are generous! I ask Melenchon's fan, why there isn't some Steve Jobs or Bill Gates in France? They are earning millions of dollars but how many jobs did they create? You think it's a shame they earn so much money? Fortunetaly that there are rich people in France! I don't understand how people can be so agressive against rich! Most of the time they deserve their money For every Steve Jobs there are half a dozen Paris Hiltons and a Madoff. Do they deserve their money?
Richard Hilton sure deserves his money. He created an Empire of hotel which created god knows how many jobs. And he sure as hell has the right to give his hard earned money to his daughter...
Madoff was a criminal that mainly stole from rich people, why are you complaining ? ^^
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On May 02 2012 21:20 -_-Quails wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 20:51 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:26 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:12 Geiko wrote:
When I hear Mélanchon say "When you see a rich person, you've got to take his money" (lui faire les poches) I can't help but ask myself where all the "love" between frenchmen is... This is a lie, from Sarkozy. Sarkozy manipulated Melenchon discourse, and everybody repeated that like idiots. Melenchon said "on va leur faire les poches" as a metaphor talking about ultra-rich people with abusive salaries. Like only a complete and utter moron would have thought that he was saying that when you see a rich person you have to rob him. But well, nobody checked and Sarkozy's trademrak outrance and manipulative deformation of people's speech worked perfectly. So, you didn't "hear" anything especially from JLM. You just repeated. Prêt à penser, welcome in Sarkozie. Don't you think "on va leur faire les poches" is a rather aggressive statement that can only generate hatred and violence ? Btw you didn't address the second part of my post. Well, that's not the problem. Between -"On va leur faire les poches", meaning we need to tax lot more ultra rich people (just that you know, the average difference between top and lowest salaries in society of the CAC 40 has been multplied by 20 in thirty years) in a meeting, and -"Melenchon says that when you see a rich you have to "lui faire les poches"", meaning physically attack the rich and rob them, there is a big difference. So either you didn't listen to JLM and you repeated what Sarkozy says, and you just get manipulated like an idiot. Either you know that you are completely transforming a militant statement and you are being blatantly dishonest. Don't change the subject, I am talking about this precise sentence that you said. It's a problem when you guys are telling me that left vs right is a battle of love vs hate (sic). Please don't resort to insults such as "idiot", I'm not trying to be aggressive, lets keep this civil "on va leur faire les poches" literally means in French: "we are going to rob them". The use of that sentence is not innocent by JLM and he knows very well this will exacerbate the Anti-Rich sentiment that he is basing his campaign on. Because believe or not, in France, making money is something you should be ashamed of. And btw, you still didn't address the second part of my previous post. I agree with you so much Geiko. In france, it's a shame to be rich. In france when you support Sarkozy you are a selfish, and when you support Hollande, you are generous! I ask Melenchon's fan, why there isn't some Steve Jobs or Bill Gates in France? They are earning millions of dollars but how many jobs did they create? You think it's a shame they earn so much money? Fortunetaly that there are rich people in France! I don't understand how people can be so agressive against rich! Most of the time they deserve their money For every Steve Jobs there are half a dozen Paris Hiltons and a Madoff. Do they deserve their money?
Paris hilton is an heiress. This father (or grand father) create several thousand jobs! And madoff is a shame, but not all boss of CAC 40 are like him!
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On May 02 2012 21:24 darkshad30000 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:11 Faya wrote:
I'm so sick of this country where it used to be a land of debate, since sarko is prime minister, debates became schoolyard fight, with the same intellectual level as kids. I'm so sick of the right wing in France, left isn't 'love' and right isn't 'hate', it is just : left= concerned for most of the population, right=concerned for myself (and maybe my family).
This makes any debates sterile as fuck, results of the election will just show if the people of France is just shitty or if they show a little faith in humanity, somehow.
And finally, I am sick of my people of France, hating for 5 years the way of managing the country by Sarkozy by 75%, realising every now and then how the president is implicated in many dark affairs, increasing the debt of France by 2/3 to gifts to the richest etc,
AND NOW WHAT ? The second turn shows 53%/47% in the latest poll ? what made you change your point of view ? Or maybe one fourth of the french people is just like rats, running away when everything goes wrong and showing up from nowhere when horizons look better. You guys are the reason why americans and the rest of the world are making fun of us, as fleeing chickens, and if you're making sarkozy win again, after what he has done, you're just making them right.
I keep hope, sarkozy isn't on his way to win, and i'm already happy for the next 5 years, knowing that right-wing supporters will hide and have to lie, as they do all the time, to protect themselves and their money... Do you know that there had been an international crisis? Certainly, figures are bad for Nicolas Sarkozy, but i'm sure that if Mme Royal had been president for 2007, France would be in Grece's situation. Look at all Socialist country (spain, greece, portugal). There are in a lots of trouble now. If reforms like the retirement reforms had not be made, France would be with more debt that currently!
So anyway I heard Scandinavia is doing real bad with their socialism. Let me put it this way; You have no argument. The countries you listed have other problems concerning their politicians and political system, which has led to some system errors and a badly functioning system overall, especially in Greece's case.
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On May 02 2012 21:19 screamingpalm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 20:38 Wegandi wrote:On May 02 2012 19:52 VyingsP wrote:On May 02 2012 19:19 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 19:13 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 19:07 Boblion wrote:
I don't really think that the average FDG/NPA voter is really smarter than those of the FN tbh.
They have even more ressentiment lol. Wow. Yeah, believing in somewhat idealist social justice is more resentful and stupid than being a racist and blaming islam and immigrants for everything. Well, Boblion, sorry to tell you, but that's sickening. Anyway, I'm gone from this thread. On May 02 2012 19:07 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 19:00 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 18:58 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 18:34 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Lepénisation des esprits, they said. Thanks for Sarko and his crew of criminals to have helped a lot to make France a more closed minded, racist and conservative country. And yes, the FN is a very very racist party, in case you doubt about it. 2007 : Le Pen scores 10%, people say "Sarkozy has taken an ultra right turn and has stolen all the voters from the FN because he talks like Le Pen does" 2012 : Le Pen scores 18%, people say "Sarkozy has taken an ultra rigth turn and is responsable for the rise of the FN 2002 : Sarkozy wasn't in the political scene and FN scores 16% Ultra Right wing ideas and their popularity are not caused by Sarkozy, stop blaming him for everything. No Sarlozy got elected by adopting the discourse of Le Pen and making it legitimate. It worked once. Now we pay the consequences: Le Pen is higher than ever, and the bridge between right and far right are blown up. Le Pen was at 16% in 2002, now it's 18% right after a crisis, I don't see anything wrong with this. Is Hollande responsible for the Ultra Left Wing being so high in France ? Melenchon is certainly not ultra left wing. He has the position of the socialist party 30 years ago. Ultra left (Poutou Artaud and the trotskist nuts etc...) is extremely low. Mélanchon is not ultra left wing ? It's not ultra left wing to have URSS flags at ALL his meetings ? Imagine what would have happened if there had been flags from the Thrid Reich at Le Pen's meetings... There is nothing wrong with the communist ideology whereas everything is wrong with the nazism ideology. To answer your question, FdG is far left, but certainly not ultra. They are reformists, unlike NPA or LO who are revolutionnary parties. Just so we are clear, Communism has killed more people than Fascism has, but yet, nothing wrong with say Khmer Rouge, Stalinism, Leninism, Maoism, most African countries, North Korea, etc. Sorry for the OT, but I don't think that it's really fair to make this statement, which I see repeated over and over. I find the Russian civil war to be a really interesting period in history, unfortunately I do not know as much about it as I'd like. From what I gathered, the Reds were the "lesser of two evils" copmpared with the Whites (and I could only imagine an anti-semetic Imperialist Russia coexisting with Nazi Germany had the Whites come to power). Anyway, it's really hard to find good information on this subject in the US (many appear to be poorly researched or heavily Red-scare biased). If anyone can recommend a good read on it I'd appreaciate it!
Pretty sure most accounts do not take into account the deaths from the Civil War. We're talking post-Civil War Russia (USSR) where tens of millions died in purges, gulags, mass starvations due to collectivization, etc. Khmer Rouge for example killed more than half the people in their country in less than a decade. Maoist China killed tens of millions through purges, culture revolution, their own prison camps, etc. North Korea have killed countless millions of their own people through starvation, gulags, purges, etc.
I can't even fathom the amount of people not even accounted for who were killed for 'disloyalty' in all these countries. Official Communist death counts put it somewhere around 100 million in the 20th Century. All of these deaths are non-combatant / non-war related deaths.
Wiki is usually not too terribly reliable, but it gives some basic overview at least.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
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On May 02 2012 21:23 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:11 Faya wrote:
I'm so sick of this country where it used to be a land of debate, since sarko is prime minister, debates became schoolyard fight, with the same intellectual level as kids. I'm so sick of the right wing in France, left isn't 'love' and right isn't 'hate', it is just : left= concerned for most of the population, right=concerned for myself (and maybe my family).
This makes any debates sterile as fuck, results of the election will just show if the people of France is just shitty or if they show a little faith in humanity, somehow.
And finally, I am sick of my people of France, hating for 5 years the way of managing the country by Sarkozy by 75%, realising every now and then how the president is implicated in many dark affairs, increasing the debt of France by 2/3 to gifts to the richest etc,
AND NOW WHAT ? The second turn shows 53%/47% in the latest poll ? what made you change your point of view ? Or maybe one fourth of the french people is just like rats, running away when everything goes wrong and showing up from nowhere when horizons look better. You guys are the reason why americans and the rest of the world are making fun of us, as fleeing chickens, and if you're making sarkozy win again, after what he has done, you're just making them right.
I keep hope, sarkozy isn't on his way to win, and i'm already happy for the next 5 years, knowing that right-wing supporters will hide and have to lie, as they do all the time, to protect themselves and their money... You do realize that what makes debating hard is your condescending tone regarding anyone who doesn't think like you rather then "because of sarkozy". It's funny how everything wrong in the world right now is "because of Sarkozy" Do you have anything in your post you wish me to respond to ? Or are you just "throwing it out there" ?
You see the point right here? aren't you condescending saying we just use the "anti-sarkozysm". What would you want me to say instead ? It is because of the crisis? WRONG (I told you, 2/3 of created debt in the last 5 years isn't due to the crisis but the way of running the public money, rapport cour des compte). So yes, everything a little bit aware of what's going on is saying "because of Sarkozy" because it is, and unfortunately it is not funny. Tonight, he will once again "enfumer" everybody, be more racist, gain pointsn and eventually win the elections, officially running a country of dumbass people, half-stupid, half-racist and half-selfish.
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On May 02 2012 21:27 HellRoxYa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:24 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 21:11 Faya wrote:
I'm so sick of this country where it used to be a land of debate, since sarko is prime minister, debates became schoolyard fight, with the same intellectual level as kids. I'm so sick of the right wing in France, left isn't 'love' and right isn't 'hate', it is just : left= concerned for most of the population, right=concerned for myself (and maybe my family).
This makes any debates sterile as fuck, results of the election will just show if the people of France is just shitty or if they show a little faith in humanity, somehow.
And finally, I am sick of my people of France, hating for 5 years the way of managing the country by Sarkozy by 75%, realising every now and then how the president is implicated in many dark affairs, increasing the debt of France by 2/3 to gifts to the richest etc,
AND NOW WHAT ? The second turn shows 53%/47% in the latest poll ? what made you change your point of view ? Or maybe one fourth of the french people is just like rats, running away when everything goes wrong and showing up from nowhere when horizons look better. You guys are the reason why americans and the rest of the world are making fun of us, as fleeing chickens, and if you're making sarkozy win again, after what he has done, you're just making them right.
I keep hope, sarkozy isn't on his way to win, and i'm already happy for the next 5 years, knowing that right-wing supporters will hide and have to lie, as they do all the time, to protect themselves and their money... Do you know that there had been an international crisis? Certainly, figures are bad for Nicolas Sarkozy, but i'm sure that if Mme Royal had been president for 2007, France would be in Grece's situation. Look at all Socialist country (spain, greece, portugal). There are in a lots of trouble now. If reforms like the retirement reforms had not be made, France would be with more debt that currently! So anyway I heard Scandinavia is doing real bad with their socialism. Let me put it this way; You have no argument. The countries you listed have other problems concerning their politicians and political system, which has led to some system errors and a badly functioning system overall, especially in Greece's case.
Mme Royale was called the "zapatera" by spanish observers because of her ideas similar to those of Zapatero. And look where those ideas brought Spain... I think that's where darkshad is going with his post.
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On May 02 2012 20:12 Geiko wrote:
When I hear Mélanchon say "When you see a rich person, you've got to take his money" (lui faire les poches) I can't help but ask myself where all the "love" between frenchmen is...
On May 02 2012 21:17 Geiko wrote:
Every one understood what he meant. I am criticizing the symbol
Right... I don't know what to say, I'm so confused. Too many contradictory informations.
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On May 02 2012 21:31 Faya wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:23 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:11 Faya wrote:
I'm so sick of this country where it used to be a land of debate, since sarko is prime minister, debates became schoolyard fight, with the same intellectual level as kids. I'm so sick of the right wing in France, left isn't 'love' and right isn't 'hate', it is just : left= concerned for most of the population, right=concerned for myself (and maybe my family).
This makes any debates sterile as fuck, results of the election will just show if the people of France is just shitty or if they show a little faith in humanity, somehow.
And finally, I am sick of my people of France, hating for 5 years the way of managing the country by Sarkozy by 75%, realising every now and then how the president is implicated in many dark affairs, increasing the debt of France by 2/3 to gifts to the richest etc,
AND NOW WHAT ? The second turn shows 53%/47% in the latest poll ? what made you change your point of view ? Or maybe one fourth of the french people is just like rats, running away when everything goes wrong and showing up from nowhere when horizons look better. You guys are the reason why americans and the rest of the world are making fun of us, as fleeing chickens, and if you're making sarkozy win again, after what he has done, you're just making them right.
I keep hope, sarkozy isn't on his way to win, and i'm already happy for the next 5 years, knowing that right-wing supporters will hide and have to lie, as they do all the time, to protect themselves and their money... You do realize that what makes debating hard is your condescending tone regarding anyone who doesn't think like you rather then "because of sarkozy". It's funny how everything wrong in the world right now is "because of Sarkozy" Do you have anything in your post you wish me to respond to ? Or are you just "throwing it out there" ? You see the point right here? aren't you condescending saying we just use the "anti-sarkozysm". What would you want me to say instead ? It is because of the crisis? WRONG (I told you, 2/3 of created debt in the last 5 years isn't due to the crisis but the way of running the public money, rapport cour des compte). So yes, everything a little bit aware of what's going on is saying "because of Sarkozy" because it is, and unfortunately it is not funny. Tonight, he will once again "enfumer" everybody, be more racist, gain pointsn and eventually win the elections, officially running a country of dumbass people, half-stupid, half-racist and half-selfish.
You are aware that the "cour de compte" is led currently by a member of the socialist party (that Sarkozy named himself by the way, the right isn't as "sectaire" as you claim now ?) and that this repport can be criticized in a number of ways.
You are also aware regarding the debt that at the time, François Hollande said that the gouvernement's action wasn't going far enough, and that France should increase its debt even more to deal with the crisis ?
Are you aware that out of all the countries in Europe, France has been amongst the best at maintaining its "pouvoir d'achat" and limiting unemployment growth ?.
Who is trying to "enfume" who ?
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People don't realize that it's 2007 again, except that Hollande doesn't say anything so it's less blatantly obvious that he's completely incompetent and has no idea what he's going to do as far as actual decisions/choices go. He's just using every demagogic trick in the book to appear the least bad as he can and pretend his "grand programm" is realistic, when it's just utterly ridiculous.
It's not about which would be a good president, it's about which would be the less awful one, and Hollande is just going to make bad things worse, and things going okay go bad just to please the brainless masses.
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On May 02 2012 21:33 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 20:12 Geiko wrote:
When I hear Mélanchon say "When you see a rich person, you've got to take his money" (lui faire les poches) I can't help but ask myself where all the "love" between frenchmen is... Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:17 Geiko wrote:
Every one understood what he meant. I am criticizing the symbol Right... I don't know what to say, I'm so confused. Too many contradictory informations.
Out of curiosity, have you read the rest of my post ?
Please don't lower the debate like this in future posts, I hear left wing people in this forum want to have real debates on ideas.
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On May 02 2012 21:24 darkshad30000 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:11 Faya wrote:
I'm so sick of this country where it used to be a land of debate, since sarko is prime minister, debates became schoolyard fight, with the same intellectual level as kids. I'm so sick of the right wing in France, left isn't 'love' and right isn't 'hate', it is just : left= concerned for most of the population, right=concerned for myself (and maybe my family).
This makes any debates sterile as fuck, results of the election will just show if the people of France is just shitty or if they show a little faith in humanity, somehow.
And finally, I am sick of my people of France, hating for 5 years the way of managing the country by Sarkozy by 75%, realising every now and then how the president is implicated in many dark affairs, increasing the debt of France by 2/3 to gifts to the richest etc,
AND NOW WHAT ? The second turn shows 53%/47% in the latest poll ? what made you change your point of view ? Or maybe one fourth of the french people is just like rats, running away when everything goes wrong and showing up from nowhere when horizons look better. You guys are the reason why americans and the rest of the world are making fun of us, as fleeing chickens, and if you're making sarkozy win again, after what he has done, you're just making them right.
I keep hope, sarkozy isn't on his way to win, and i'm already happy for the next 5 years, knowing that right-wing supporters will hide and have to lie, as they do all the time, to protect themselves and their money... Do you know that there had been an international crisis? Certainly, figures are bad for Nicolas Sarkozy, but i'm sure that if Mme Royal had been president for 2007, France would be in Grece's situation. Look at all Socialist country (spain, greece, portugal). There are in a lots of trouble now. If reforms like the retirement reforms had not be made, France would be with more debt that currently!
France would have had 500 billions, which helps in the financial crisis. And the crisis touched everyone but the president, with a 120% salary raise as first action.
Grece use to have 70% of fiscal leaks, this is what put them down, France isn't, although our richer people are clearly adept of this sport.
And all those countries runned by socialists are actually countries where right wing parties have been put away because they are the one responsible of the crisis. Don't you try to use your sarkozy foolishness on me, unlike your supporters, i read and make my own point of view on the situation...
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On May 02 2012 21:35 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:31 Faya wrote:On May 02 2012 21:23 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:11 Faya wrote:
I'm so sick of this country where it used to be a land of debate, since sarko is prime minister, debates became schoolyard fight, with the same intellectual level as kids. I'm so sick of the right wing in France, left isn't 'love' and right isn't 'hate', it is just : left= concerned for most of the population, right=concerned for myself (and maybe my family).
This makes any debates sterile as fuck, results of the election will just show if the people of France is just shitty or if they show a little faith in humanity, somehow.
And finally, I am sick of my people of France, hating for 5 years the way of managing the country by Sarkozy by 75%, realising every now and then how the president is implicated in many dark affairs, increasing the debt of France by 2/3 to gifts to the richest etc,
AND NOW WHAT ? The second turn shows 53%/47% in the latest poll ? what made you change your point of view ? Or maybe one fourth of the french people is just like rats, running away when everything goes wrong and showing up from nowhere when horizons look better. You guys are the reason why americans and the rest of the world are making fun of us, as fleeing chickens, and if you're making sarkozy win again, after what he has done, you're just making them right.
I keep hope, sarkozy isn't on his way to win, and i'm already happy for the next 5 years, knowing that right-wing supporters will hide and have to lie, as they do all the time, to protect themselves and their money... You do realize that what makes debating hard is your condescending tone regarding anyone who doesn't think like you rather then "because of sarkozy". It's funny how everything wrong in the world right now is "because of Sarkozy" Do you have anything in your post you wish me to respond to ? Or are you just "throwing it out there" ? You see the point right here? aren't you condescending saying we just use the "anti-sarkozysm". What would you want me to say instead ? It is because of the crisis? WRONG (I told you, 2/3 of created debt in the last 5 years isn't due to the crisis but the way of running the public money, rapport cour des compte). So yes, everything a little bit aware of what's going on is saying "because of Sarkozy" because it is, and unfortunately it is not funny. Tonight, he will once again "enfumer" everybody, be more racist, gain pointsn and eventually win the elections, officially running a country of dumbass people, half-stupid, half-racist and half-selfish. You are aware that the "cour de compte" is led currently by a member of the socialist party (that Sarkozy named himself by the way, the right isn't as "sectaire" as you claim now ?) and that this repport can be criticized in a number of ways. You are also aware regarding the debt that at the time, François Hollande said that the gouvernement's action wasn't going far enough, and that France should increase its debt even more to deal with the crisis ? Are you aware that out of all the countries in Europe, France has been amongst the best at maintaining its "pouvoir d'achat" and limiting unemployment growth ?. Who is trying to "enfume" who ?
Thing is little can be linked to Mr. Sarkosy. The social system did most of the work. And though a retirement reform was necessary, it was done atrociously by the actual president.
Furthermore, the crisis isn't as bad as people think it is. In fact it is more of an european political crisis rather than a financial crisis (in western EU)
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On May 02 2012 21:37 Faya wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:24 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 21:11 Faya wrote:
I'm so sick of this country where it used to be a land of debate, since sarko is prime minister, debates became schoolyard fight, with the same intellectual level as kids. I'm so sick of the right wing in France, left isn't 'love' and right isn't 'hate', it is just : left= concerned for most of the population, right=concerned for myself (and maybe my family).
This makes any debates sterile as fuck, results of the election will just show if the people of France is just shitty or if they show a little faith in humanity, somehow.
And finally, I am sick of my people of France, hating for 5 years the way of managing the country by Sarkozy by 75%, realising every now and then how the president is implicated in many dark affairs, increasing the debt of France by 2/3 to gifts to the richest etc,
AND NOW WHAT ? The second turn shows 53%/47% in the latest poll ? what made you change your point of view ? Or maybe one fourth of the french people is just like rats, running away when everything goes wrong and showing up from nowhere when horizons look better. You guys are the reason why americans and the rest of the world are making fun of us, as fleeing chickens, and if you're making sarkozy win again, after what he has done, you're just making them right.
I keep hope, sarkozy isn't on his way to win, and i'm already happy for the next 5 years, knowing that right-wing supporters will hide and have to lie, as they do all the time, to protect themselves and their money... Do you know that there had been an international crisis? Certainly, figures are bad for Nicolas Sarkozy, but i'm sure that if Mme Royal had been president for 2007, France would be in Grece's situation. Look at all Socialist country (spain, greece, portugal). There are in a lots of trouble now. If reforms like the retirement reforms had not be made, France would be with more debt that currently! France would have had 500 billions, which helps in the financial crisis. And the crisis touched everyone but the president, with a 120% salary raise as first action. Grece use to have 70% of fiscal leaks, this is what put them down, France isn't, although our richer people are clearly adept of this sport. And all those countries runned by socialists are actually countries where right wing parties have been put away because they are the one responsible of the crisis. Don't you try to use your sarkozy foolishness on me, unlike your supporters, i read and make my own point of view on the situation...
What is it with you guys and insults ?  We can debate over ideas and not throw names at each other.
To respond to the content, every single european country has had a similar increase in their public debt during the crisis. Sarkozy didn't just make 500 billion vanish into thin air.
How can you criticize Sarkozy for setting his salary at 18000€ (same as the prime minister) when Hollande's own state-paid salary is 30 500€ ?
You say that what put the greek down was Fiscal leaks. How is Hollande going to stop fiscal leaks when he is planning on raising taxes for rich people and thus favors the "évasion fiscale" ?
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On May 02 2012 21:26 darkshad30000 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:20 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 20:51 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:26 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:12 Geiko wrote:
When I hear Mélanchon say "When you see a rich person, you've got to take his money" (lui faire les poches) I can't help but ask myself where all the "love" between frenchmen is... This is a lie, from Sarkozy. Sarkozy manipulated Melenchon discourse, and everybody repeated that like idiots. Melenchon said "on va leur faire les poches" as a metaphor talking about ultra-rich people with abusive salaries. Like only a complete and utter moron would have thought that he was saying that when you see a rich person you have to rob him. But well, nobody checked and Sarkozy's trademrak outrance and manipulative deformation of people's speech worked perfectly. So, you didn't "hear" anything especially from JLM. You just repeated. Prêt à penser, welcome in Sarkozie. Don't you think "on va leur faire les poches" is a rather aggressive statement that can only generate hatred and violence ? Btw you didn't address the second part of my post. Well, that's not the problem. Between -"On va leur faire les poches", meaning we need to tax lot more ultra rich people (just that you know, the average difference between top and lowest salaries in society of the CAC 40 has been multplied by 20 in thirty years) in a meeting, and -"Melenchon says that when you see a rich you have to "lui faire les poches"", meaning physically attack the rich and rob them, there is a big difference. So either you didn't listen to JLM and you repeated what Sarkozy says, and you just get manipulated like an idiot. Either you know that you are completely transforming a militant statement and you are being blatantly dishonest. Don't change the subject, I am talking about this precise sentence that you said. It's a problem when you guys are telling me that left vs right is a battle of love vs hate (sic). Please don't resort to insults such as "idiot", I'm not trying to be aggressive, lets keep this civil "on va leur faire les poches" literally means in French: "we are going to rob them". The use of that sentence is not innocent by JLM and he knows very well this will exacerbate the Anti-Rich sentiment that he is basing his campaign on. Because believe or not, in France, making money is something you should be ashamed of. And btw, you still didn't address the second part of my previous post. I agree with you so much Geiko. In france, it's a shame to be rich. In france when you support Sarkozy you are a selfish, and when you support Hollande, you are generous! I ask Melenchon's fan, why there isn't some Steve Jobs or Bill Gates in France? They are earning millions of dollars but how many jobs did they create? You think it's a shame they earn so much money? Fortunetaly that there are rich people in France! I don't understand how people can be so agressive against rich! Most of the time they deserve their money For every Steve Jobs there are half a dozen Paris Hiltons and a Madoff. Do they deserve their money? Paris hilton is an heiress. This father (or grand father) create several thousand jobs! And madoff is a shame, but not all boss of CAC 40 are like him!
You don't get punished for the crimes of your forefathers, why should you profit from their success?
Edit: I'm not saying we should be against the rich, I'm saying we shouldn't automatically assume that they have done anything more constructive than be born lucky. People who are born to riches have done nothing to deserve their money.
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On May 02 2012 21:39 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:35 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:31 Faya wrote:On May 02 2012 21:23 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:11 Faya wrote:
I'm so sick of this country where it used to be a land of debate, since sarko is prime minister, debates became schoolyard fight, with the same intellectual level as kids. I'm so sick of the right wing in France, left isn't 'love' and right isn't 'hate', it is just : left= concerned for most of the population, right=concerned for myself (and maybe my family).
This makes any debates sterile as fuck, results of the election will just show if the people of France is just shitty or if they show a little faith in humanity, somehow.
And finally, I am sick of my people of France, hating for 5 years the way of managing the country by Sarkozy by 75%, realising every now and then how the president is implicated in many dark affairs, increasing the debt of France by 2/3 to gifts to the richest etc,
AND NOW WHAT ? The second turn shows 53%/47% in the latest poll ? what made you change your point of view ? Or maybe one fourth of the french people is just like rats, running away when everything goes wrong and showing up from nowhere when horizons look better. You guys are the reason why americans and the rest of the world are making fun of us, as fleeing chickens, and if you're making sarkozy win again, after what he has done, you're just making them right.
I keep hope, sarkozy isn't on his way to win, and i'm already happy for the next 5 years, knowing that right-wing supporters will hide and have to lie, as they do all the time, to protect themselves and their money... You do realize that what makes debating hard is your condescending tone regarding anyone who doesn't think like you rather then "because of sarkozy". It's funny how everything wrong in the world right now is "because of Sarkozy" Do you have anything in your post you wish me to respond to ? Or are you just "throwing it out there" ? You see the point right here? aren't you condescending saying we just use the "anti-sarkozysm". What would you want me to say instead ? It is because of the crisis? WRONG (I told you, 2/3 of created debt in the last 5 years isn't due to the crisis but the way of running the public money, rapport cour des compte). So yes, everything a little bit aware of what's going on is saying "because of Sarkozy" because it is, and unfortunately it is not funny. Tonight, he will once again "enfumer" everybody, be more racist, gain pointsn and eventually win the elections, officially running a country of dumbass people, half-stupid, half-racist and half-selfish. You are aware that the "cour de compte" is led currently by a member of the socialist party (that Sarkozy named himself by the way, the right isn't as "sectaire" as you claim now ?) and that this repport can be criticized in a number of ways. You are also aware regarding the debt that at the time, François Hollande said that the gouvernement's action wasn't going far enough, and that France should increase its debt even more to deal with the crisis ? Are you aware that out of all the countries in Europe, France has been amongst the best at maintaining its "pouvoir d'achat" and limiting unemployment growth ?. Who is trying to "enfume" who ? Thing is little can be linked to Mr. Sarkosy. The social system did most of the work. And though a retirement reform was necessary, it was done atrociously by the actual president. Furthermore, the crisis isn't as bad as people think it is. In fact it is more of an european political crisis rather than a financial crisis (in western EU)
Care to discuss what part or the "réforme des retraites" was done atrociously ?
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On May 02 2012 21:31 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:27 HellRoxYa wrote:On May 02 2012 21:24 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 21:11 Faya wrote:
I'm so sick of this country where it used to be a land of debate, since sarko is prime minister, debates became schoolyard fight, with the same intellectual level as kids. I'm so sick of the right wing in France, left isn't 'love' and right isn't 'hate', it is just : left= concerned for most of the population, right=concerned for myself (and maybe my family).
This makes any debates sterile as fuck, results of the election will just show if the people of France is just shitty or if they show a little faith in humanity, somehow.
And finally, I am sick of my people of France, hating for 5 years the way of managing the country by Sarkozy by 75%, realising every now and then how the president is implicated in many dark affairs, increasing the debt of France by 2/3 to gifts to the richest etc,
AND NOW WHAT ? The second turn shows 53%/47% in the latest poll ? what made you change your point of view ? Or maybe one fourth of the french people is just like rats, running away when everything goes wrong and showing up from nowhere when horizons look better. You guys are the reason why americans and the rest of the world are making fun of us, as fleeing chickens, and if you're making sarkozy win again, after what he has done, you're just making them right.
I keep hope, sarkozy isn't on his way to win, and i'm already happy for the next 5 years, knowing that right-wing supporters will hide and have to lie, as they do all the time, to protect themselves and their money... Do you know that there had been an international crisis? Certainly, figures are bad for Nicolas Sarkozy, but i'm sure that if Mme Royal had been president for 2007, France would be in Grece's situation. Look at all Socialist country (spain, greece, portugal). There are in a lots of trouble now. If reforms like the retirement reforms had not be made, France would be with more debt that currently! So anyway I heard Scandinavia is doing real bad with their socialism. Let me put it this way; You have no argument. The countries you listed have other problems concerning their politicians and political system, which has led to some system errors and a badly functioning system overall, especially in Greece's case. Mme Royale was called the "zapatera" by spanish observers because of her ideas similar to those of Zapatero. And look where those ideas brought Spain... I think that's where darkshad is going with his post.
The funny side of politics and the view of ignorants = they judge the situation of a country based on a 5 year mandate, no, it isnt decades of crooked fondations that brought Spain to this current state and crisis (and that, wasnt AT ALL, handled by socialists, if you wanna sum up a country like that, educate yourself about the subject, I'm sure spanish people around here would appreciate it), nah, it's all socialists' fault. Such dumb propaganda people spit back right after they heard it from hyprocritical politicians like Sarkozy who are just trying to save the catastrophy that was their governance (and behaviour, in Sarkozy' case, you know that 95% of neutral politics observers in Europe mock the shit out of him / us for 5 years right? Watch "Looking for Nicolas Sarkozy", most of the journalists know what they're talking about, and most of them are part of centrist, and right wing newspaper... it's just scary).
Kinda like blaming Obama for the current state of the USA, you really think, that what a president can do on a 5 years period of time can change what has been built AT ALL? They just play the cards they've been given, if it goes well "socialism saved us", if not "it's their fault". What a lack of judgement, knowledge, and patience this is. It's also a lack of humility, we cannot conceive, that, during our life time, we will only see things evolve slowly, and that we're just freaking ants when it comes to that, our grand grand children might see a better world if we start now, and that, I guess people cant accept it, lets burn all the oil, lets give ourselves to limitless capitalism and see what happens, lets treat the middle-east like it was a fluke, a problem that is going to solve itself.
It's just people spending their energy on pointless debates, well, cant call most of them debates, if I dont have the pretention, of knowing the economical and political situations enough, how the hell most of the idiots I read do.
And on french election, even without any political bias, you just need to look at the behavior, the sneaky strategies employed by all of Sarkozy's puppets, the racists jokes, the money they spent on themselves, the countless huge mistakes they did, the obvious desire of power above any other motivation of most of UMP representatives, this isnt what a huge country like France should be, these people are going to cry in less than a week, they're going to realize, that they commited for a good part of them, political suicide, and I'm just glad that I can finally see that. And by any mean, I'm not promising Hollande and PS will do a better job, but I for sure know they wont act like princes like UMP did, and when your country is getting poor, people cant find jobs, situation is shitty, it's simple decency, and I'll be good with that, for the rest, we'll see what happens, like always
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On May 02 2012 21:44 -_-Quails wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:26 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 21:20 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 20:51 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:26 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:12 Geiko wrote:
When I hear Mélanchon say "When you see a rich person, you've got to take his money" (lui faire les poches) I can't help but ask myself where all the "love" between frenchmen is... This is a lie, from Sarkozy. Sarkozy manipulated Melenchon discourse, and everybody repeated that like idiots. Melenchon said "on va leur faire les poches" as a metaphor talking about ultra-rich people with abusive salaries. Like only a complete and utter moron would have thought that he was saying that when you see a rich person you have to rob him. But well, nobody checked and Sarkozy's trademrak outrance and manipulative deformation of people's speech worked perfectly. So, you didn't "hear" anything especially from JLM. You just repeated. Prêt à penser, welcome in Sarkozie. Don't you think "on va leur faire les poches" is a rather aggressive statement that can only generate hatred and violence ? Btw you didn't address the second part of my post. Well, that's not the problem. Between -"On va leur faire les poches", meaning we need to tax lot more ultra rich people (just that you know, the average difference between top and lowest salaries in society of the CAC 40 has been multplied by 20 in thirty years) in a meeting, and -"Melenchon says that when you see a rich you have to "lui faire les poches"", meaning physically attack the rich and rob them, there is a big difference. So either you didn't listen to JLM and you repeated what Sarkozy says, and you just get manipulated like an idiot. Either you know that you are completely transforming a militant statement and you are being blatantly dishonest. Don't change the subject, I am talking about this precise sentence that you said. It's a problem when you guys are telling me that left vs right is a battle of love vs hate (sic). Please don't resort to insults such as "idiot", I'm not trying to be aggressive, lets keep this civil "on va leur faire les poches" literally means in French: "we are going to rob them". The use of that sentence is not innocent by JLM and he knows very well this will exacerbate the Anti-Rich sentiment that he is basing his campaign on. Because believe or not, in France, making money is something you should be ashamed of. And btw, you still didn't address the second part of my previous post. I agree with you so much Geiko. In france, it's a shame to be rich. In france when you support Sarkozy you are a selfish, and when you support Hollande, you are generous! I ask Melenchon's fan, why there isn't some Steve Jobs or Bill Gates in France? They are earning millions of dollars but how many jobs did they create? You think it's a shame they earn so much money? Fortunetaly that there are rich people in France! I don't understand how people can be so agressive against rich! Most of the time they deserve their money For every Steve Jobs there are half a dozen Paris Hiltons and a Madoff. Do they deserve their money? Paris hilton is an heiress. This father (or grand father) create several thousand jobs! And madoff is a shame, but not all boss of CAC 40 are like him! You don't get punished for the crimes of your forefathers, why should you profit from their success?
You've worked hard to win money, why should someone prevent you from using the way you see fit (giving it to children) ?
Committing crimes is a personal issue, as well as doing good deeds (you don't inherite a legion of honor for example) Money is something you've earned and now posses and you are free to give it to anyone you want. Why are you comparing different things ?
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On May 02 2012 21:35 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:31 Faya wrote:On May 02 2012 21:23 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:11 Faya wrote:
I'm so sick of this country where it used to be a land of debate, since sarko is prime minister, debates became schoolyard fight, with the same intellectual level as kids. I'm so sick of the right wing in France, left isn't 'love' and right isn't 'hate', it is just : left= concerned for most of the population, right=concerned for myself (and maybe my family).
This makes any debates sterile as fuck, results of the election will just show if the people of France is just shitty or if they show a little faith in humanity, somehow.
And finally, I am sick of my people of France, hating for 5 years the way of managing the country by Sarkozy by 75%, realising every now and then how the president is implicated in many dark affairs, increasing the debt of France by 2/3 to gifts to the richest etc,
AND NOW WHAT ? The second turn shows 53%/47% in the latest poll ? what made you change your point of view ? Or maybe one fourth of the french people is just like rats, running away when everything goes wrong and showing up from nowhere when horizons look better. You guys are the reason why americans and the rest of the world are making fun of us, as fleeing chickens, and if you're making sarkozy win again, after what he has done, you're just making them right.
I keep hope, sarkozy isn't on his way to win, and i'm already happy for the next 5 years, knowing that right-wing supporters will hide and have to lie, as they do all the time, to protect themselves and their money... You do realize that what makes debating hard is your condescending tone regarding anyone who doesn't think like you rather then "because of sarkozy". It's funny how everything wrong in the world right now is "because of Sarkozy" Do you have anything in your post you wish me to respond to ? Or are you just "throwing it out there" ? You see the point right here? aren't you condescending saying we just use the "anti-sarkozysm". What would you want me to say instead ? It is because of the crisis? WRONG (I told you, 2/3 of created debt in the last 5 years isn't due to the crisis but the way of running the public money, rapport cour des compte). So yes, everything a little bit aware of what's going on is saying "because of Sarkozy" because it is, and unfortunately it is not funny. Tonight, he will once again "enfumer" everybody, be more racist, gain pointsn and eventually win the elections, officially running a country of dumbass people, half-stupid, half-racist and half-selfish. You are aware that the "cour de compte" is led currently by a member of the socialist party (that Sarkozy named himself by the way, the right isn't as "sectaire" as you claim now ?) and that this repport can be criticized in a number of ways. You are also aware regarding the debt that at the time, François Hollande said that the gouvernement's action wasn't going far enough, and that France should increase its debt even more to deal with the crisis ? Are you aware that out of all the countries in Europe, France has been amongst the best at maintaining its "pouvoir d'achat" and limiting unemployment growth ?. Who is trying to "enfume" who ?
So you put a socialist guy in charge of criticizing your management so you can blame the rapport, saying it was made by a socialist? Come on, this is not 'sectaire' indeed, it is pure insane and dirty machinations.
Besides, increase the debt to deal with the crisis is what every leaders in Europeare talking about now, it is called 'supporting the growth' instead of Merkozy's idea of cutting every spendings. And Hollade should be proud to be the first one to go this way.
Talking about the pouvoir d'achat; let's not forget the situation in France isn't the same in other countries, crisis didn't have as much damage as in other countries. France has the most protective relationship bank/state (kind of what Keynes wanted) which protected the population pouvoir d'achat. Don't put that on sarkozy's bravery, it's just the way France is for over 50 years now.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://s2.lemde.fr/image/2012/05/01/642x321/1693753_3_45a1_nicolas-sarkozy-le-1er-mai-place-du-trocadero_be1987183e9cb35bb4eb2a8126864e19.jpg)
