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On May 02 2012 21:11 Faya wrote:
I'm so sick of this country where it used to be a land of debate, since sarko is prime minister, debates became schoolyard fight, with the same intellectual level as kids. I'm so sick of the right wing in France, left isn't 'love' and right isn't 'hate', it is just : left= concerned for most of the population, right=concerned for myself (and maybe my family).
This makes any debates sterile as fuck, results of the election will just show if the people of France is just shitty or if they show a little faith in humanity, somehow.
And finally, I am sick of my people of France, hating for 5 years the way of managing the country by Sarkozy by 75%, realising every now and then how the president is implicated in many dark affairs, increasing the debt of France by 2/3 to gifts to the richest etc,
AND NOW WHAT ? The second turn shows 53%/47% in the latest poll ? what made you change your point of view ? Or maybe one fourth of the french people is just like rats, running away when everything goes wrong and showing up from nowhere when horizons look better. You guys are the reason why americans and the rest of the world are making fun of us, as fleeing chickens, and if you're making sarkozy win again, after what he has done, you're just making them right.
I keep hope, sarkozy isn't on his way to win, and i'm already happy for the next 5 years, knowing that right-wing supporters will hide and have to lie, as they do all the time, to protect themselves and their money...
not sure you should talk about politics when being that inaccurate (prime minister) and when your whole statement is just pile of bad clichés... wonder what you call "debate" but clearly you're hurting the left wing with posts like that, just bringing wind to the right's mill
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I would think about comparing Sarkozy/Hollande financially if Sarkozy wasn't racist (he and his followers doesn't even care to hide it now, as they want the FN votes). And that's just a start.
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On May 02 2012 21:48 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:31 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:27 HellRoxYa wrote:On May 02 2012 21:24 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 21:11 Faya wrote:
I'm so sick of this country where it used to be a land of debate, since sarko is prime minister, debates became schoolyard fight, with the same intellectual level as kids. I'm so sick of the right wing in France, left isn't 'love' and right isn't 'hate', it is just : left= concerned for most of the population, right=concerned for myself (and maybe my family).
This makes any debates sterile as fuck, results of the election will just show if the people of France is just shitty or if they show a little faith in humanity, somehow.
And finally, I am sick of my people of France, hating for 5 years the way of managing the country by Sarkozy by 75%, realising every now and then how the president is implicated in many dark affairs, increasing the debt of France by 2/3 to gifts to the richest etc,
AND NOW WHAT ? The second turn shows 53%/47% in the latest poll ? what made you change your point of view ? Or maybe one fourth of the french people is just like rats, running away when everything goes wrong and showing up from nowhere when horizons look better. You guys are the reason why americans and the rest of the world are making fun of us, as fleeing chickens, and if you're making sarkozy win again, after what he has done, you're just making them right.
I keep hope, sarkozy isn't on his way to win, and i'm already happy for the next 5 years, knowing that right-wing supporters will hide and have to lie, as they do all the time, to protect themselves and their money... Do you know that there had been an international crisis? Certainly, figures are bad for Nicolas Sarkozy, but i'm sure that if Mme Royal had been president for 2007, France would be in Grece's situation. Look at all Socialist country (spain, greece, portugal). There are in a lots of trouble now. If reforms like the retirement reforms had not be made, France would be with more debt that currently! So anyway I heard Scandinavia is doing real bad with their socialism. Let me put it this way; You have no argument. The countries you listed have other problems concerning their politicians and political system, which has led to some system errors and a badly functioning system overall, especially in Greece's case. Mme Royale was called the "zapatera" by spanish observers because of her ideas similar to those of Zapatero. And look where those ideas brought Spain... I think that's where darkshad is going with his post. The funny side of politics and the view of ignorants = they judge the situation of a country based on a 5 year mandate, no, it isnt decades of crooked fondations that brought Spain to this current state and crisis (and that, wasnt AT ALL, handled by socialists, if you wanna sum up a country like that, educate yourself about the subject, I'm sure spanish people around here would appreciate it), nah, it's all socialists' fault. Such dumb propaganda people spit back right after they heard it from hyprocritical politicians like Sarkozy who are just trying to save the catastrophy that was their governance (and behaviour, in Sarkozy' case, you know that 95% of neutral politics observers in Europe mock the shit out of him / us for 5 years right? Watch "Looking for Nicolas Sarkozy", most of the journalists know what they're talking about, and most of them are part of centrist, and right wing newspaper... it's just scary). Kinda like blaming Obama for the current state of the USA, you really think, that what a president can do on a 5 years period of time can change what has been built AT ALL? They just play the cards they've been given, if it goes well "socialism saved us", if not "it's their fault". What a lack of judgement, knowledge, and patience this is. It's also a lack of humility, we cannot conceive, that, during our life time, we will only see things evolve slowly, and that we're just freaking ants when it comes to that, our grand grand children might see a better world if we start now, and that, I guess people cant accept it, lets burn all the oil, lets give ourselves to limitless capitalism and see what happens, lets treat the middle-east like it was a fluke, a problem that is going to solve itself. It's just people spending their energy on pointless debates, well, cant call most of them debates, if I dont have the pretention, of knowing the economical and political situations enough, how the hell most of the idiots I read do. And on french election, even without any political bias, you just need to look at the behavior, the sneaky strategies employed by all of Sarkozy's puppets, the racists jokes, the money they spent on themselves, the countless huge mistakes they did, the obvious desire of power above any other motivation of most of UMP representatives, this isnt what a huge country like France should be, these people are going to cry in less than a week, they're going to realize, that they commited for a good part of them, political suicide, and I'm just glad that I can finally see that. And by any mean, I'm not promising Hollande and PS will do a better job, but I for sure know they wont act like princes like UMP did, and when your country is getting poor, people cant find jobs, situation is shitty, it's simple decency, and I'll be good with that, for the rest, we'll see what happens, like always
Once again, no need for words like "ignorant" etc... It's really getting annoying...
You say that you cannont judge a country's situation by just the last 5 years, then why are people attacking Sarkozy on his "Bilan" ? That doesn't make sense. The other day I saw a member of the PS attacking Chirac and Sarkozy because the value of work had risen over the past 10 years. Why don't you tell him to look at what happened during Jospin's gouverment with the 35h for the explanation ?
Regarding the way that other countries see Sarkozy. I was under the impression that all of the political leaders supported Sarkozy's action during his time at the head of the european union. I also just a coupe of days ago saw a whole article on the economist about how Hollande would be the worse mistake for France of all times and that even Sarkozy was a better choise then him.
Sneaky strategies you say ? Like releasing a document that is most likely a fake,accusing Sarkozy , 7 days before the election ? Is that what you mean by sneaky ?
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Whoever is elected, they have no power on central banks. Banks are the one that decide our life. I can't believe so much people have faith in voting. When I see on tv all those ignorant kids manifesting in the street. EVERY TIME it's the same shit, a damn fuckin circus all over the country. Talking talking talking, nobody as the fuckin solution coze it's not their job to find a solution anyway.
let's be responsible with our actions, instead of voting hoping somebody can make our life better, we should all work together our way out of the monetary system.
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On May 02 2012 21:48 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:44 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 21:26 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 21:20 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 20:51 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:26 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:12 Geiko wrote:
When I hear Mélanchon say "When you see a rich person, you've got to take his money" (lui faire les poches) I can't help but ask myself where all the "love" between frenchmen is... This is a lie, from Sarkozy. Sarkozy manipulated Melenchon discourse, and everybody repeated that like idiots. Melenchon said "on va leur faire les poches" as a metaphor talking about ultra-rich people with abusive salaries. Like only a complete and utter moron would have thought that he was saying that when you see a rich person you have to rob him. But well, nobody checked and Sarkozy's trademrak outrance and manipulative deformation of people's speech worked perfectly. So, you didn't "hear" anything especially from JLM. You just repeated. Prêt à penser, welcome in Sarkozie. Don't you think "on va leur faire les poches" is a rather aggressive statement that can only generate hatred and violence ? Btw you didn't address the second part of my post. Well, that's not the problem. Between -"On va leur faire les poches", meaning we need to tax lot more ultra rich people (just that you know, the average difference between top and lowest salaries in society of the CAC 40 has been multplied by 20 in thirty years) in a meeting, and -"Melenchon says that when you see a rich you have to "lui faire les poches"", meaning physically attack the rich and rob them, there is a big difference. So either you didn't listen to JLM and you repeated what Sarkozy says, and you just get manipulated like an idiot. Either you know that you are completely transforming a militant statement and you are being blatantly dishonest. Don't change the subject, I am talking about this precise sentence that you said. It's a problem when you guys are telling me that left vs right is a battle of love vs hate (sic). Please don't resort to insults such as "idiot", I'm not trying to be aggressive, lets keep this civil  "on va leur faire les poches" literally means in French: "we are going to rob them". The use of that sentence is not innocent by JLM and he knows very well this will exacerbate the Anti-Rich sentiment that he is basing his campaign on. Because believe or not, in France, making money is something you should be ashamed of. And btw, you still didn't address the second part of my previous post. I agree with you so much Geiko. In france, it's a shame to be rich. In france when you support Sarkozy you are a selfish, and when you support Hollande, you are generous! I ask Melenchon's fan, why there isn't some Steve Jobs or Bill Gates in France? They are earning millions of dollars but how many jobs did they create? You think it's a shame they earn so much money? Fortunetaly that there are rich people in France! I don't understand how people can be so agressive against rich! Most of the time they deserve their money For every Steve Jobs there are half a dozen Paris Hiltons and a Madoff. Do they deserve their money? Paris hilton is an heiress. This father (or grand father) create several thousand jobs! And madoff is a shame, but not all boss of CAC 40 are like him! You don't get punished for the crimes of your forefathers, why should you profit from their success? You've worked hard to win money, why should someone prevent you from using the way you see fit (giving it to children) ? Committing crimes is a personal issue, as well as doing good deeds (you don't inherite a legion of honor for example) Money is something you've earned and now posses and you are free to give it to anyone you want. Why are you comparing different things ?
I have now clarified my meaning in the quoted post. The comparison was one of convenience only. My meaning was that the inheritor has done nothing to deserve riches. Whether or not they inherited money from someone who earned their wealth and created jobs does not have any bearing on whether they themselves have done so.
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On May 02 2012 21:43 Geiko wrote:
You say that what put the greek down was Fiscal leaks. How is Hollande going to stop fiscal leaks when he is planning on raising taxes for rich people and thus favors the "évasion fiscale" ?
"La France, tu l'aimes ou tu la quittes", you remember, if raising tax will increase fiscal leaks, then you're not patriotic and you assume to be a jerk to the country that made you rich in the first time. Sarkozy also said it would be normal to flee the country if tax raised, wtf would a president say that ?
France is full of selfish bastards who would run away, and because non of the 47% are as rich, it means france is even full of wannabe selfish bastards, worse.
Look at the americans, supporting the tax raise, this is patriotism. We are just Vichy.
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On May 02 2012 21:56 -_-Quails wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:48 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:44 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 21:26 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 21:20 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 20:51 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:26 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
This is a lie, from Sarkozy.
Sarkozy manipulated Melenchon discourse, and everybody repeated that like idiots.
Melenchon said "on va leur faire les poches" as a metaphor talking about ultra-rich people with abusive salaries. Like only a complete and utter moron would have thought that he was saying that when you see a rich person you have to rob him. But well, nobody checked and Sarkozy's trademrak outrance and manipulative deformation of people's speech worked perfectly.
So, you didn't "hear" anything especially from JLM. You just repeated. Prêt à penser, welcome in Sarkozie. Don't you think "on va leur faire les poches" is a rather aggressive statement that can only generate hatred and violence ? Btw you didn't address the second part of my post. Well, that's not the problem. Between -"On va leur faire les poches", meaning we need to tax lot more ultra rich people (just that you know, the average difference between top and lowest salaries in society of the CAC 40 has been multplied by 20 in thirty years) in a meeting, and -"Melenchon says that when you see a rich you have to "lui faire les poches"", meaning physically attack the rich and rob them, there is a big difference. So either you didn't listen to JLM and you repeated what Sarkozy says, and you just get manipulated like an idiot. Either you know that you are completely transforming a militant statement and you are being blatantly dishonest. Don't change the subject, I am talking about this precise sentence that you said. It's a problem when you guys are telling me that left vs right is a battle of love vs hate (sic). Please don't resort to insults such as "idiot", I'm not trying to be aggressive, lets keep this civil "on va leur faire les poches" literally means in French: "we are going to rob them". The use of that sentence is not innocent by JLM and he knows very well this will exacerbate the Anti-Rich sentiment that he is basing his campaign on. Because believe or not, in France, making money is something you should be ashamed of. And btw, you still didn't address the second part of my previous post. I agree with you so much Geiko. In france, it's a shame to be rich. In france when you support Sarkozy you are a selfish, and when you support Hollande, you are generous! I ask Melenchon's fan, why there isn't some Steve Jobs or Bill Gates in France? They are earning millions of dollars but how many jobs did they create? You think it's a shame they earn so much money? Fortunetaly that there are rich people in France! I don't understand how people can be so agressive against rich! Most of the time they deserve their money For every Steve Jobs there are half a dozen Paris Hiltons and a Madoff. Do they deserve their money? Paris hilton is an heiress. This father (or grand father) create several thousand jobs! And madoff is a shame, but not all boss of CAC 40 are like him! You don't get punished for the crimes of your forefathers, why should you profit from their success? You've worked hard to win money, why should someone prevent you from using the way you see fit (giving it to children) ? Committing crimes is a personal issue, as well as doing good deeds (you don't inherite a legion of honor for example) Money is something you've earned and now posses and you are free to give it to anyone you want. Why are you comparing different things ? I have now clarified my meaning in the quoted post. The comparison was one of convenience only. My meaning was that the inheritor has done nothing to deserve riches. Whether or not they inherited money from someone who earned their wealth and created jobs does not have any bearing on whether they themselves have done so.
We can also turn this into an ideological debate instead of a political one if you want but I'm not sure that it fits the context of this thread.
My question to you is: you inherite your genes from your parents, why shouldn't you inherite money. If you have beautiful parents, you'll most likely end up not too bad looking, did you deserve that ? Inequalities at birth are part of life, trying to reduce them to the extreme like what you are implying only puts more emphasis on the natural inequalities that already exists.
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On May 02 2012 21:58 Faya wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:43 Geiko wrote:
You say that what put the greek down was Fiscal leaks. How is Hollande going to stop fiscal leaks when he is planning on raising taxes for rich people and thus favors the "évasion fiscale" ? "La France, tu l'aimes ou tu la quittes", you remember, if raising tax will increase fiscal leaks, then you're not patriotic and you assume to be a jerk to the country that made you rich in the first time. Sarkozy also said it would be normal to flee the country if tax raised, wtf would a president say that ? France is full of selfish bastards who would run away, and because non of the 47% are as rich, it means france is even full of wannabe selfish bastards, worse. Look at the americans, supporting the tax raise, this is patriotism. We are just Vichy.
It's funny because Hollande and sarkozy seem to agree on this point, more taxes will encourage fiscal evasion and people fleeing the country. Here's a video of Hollande explaining this http://www.arretsurimages.net/vite.php?id=13309.
Americans support more taxes because right now, rich people are only paying about 30% taxes on their revenues and they would be in favor of paying closer to 40 or 50%
In France rich people already pay that much. Isn't paying more then half of what you make in taxes already patriotic enough ?
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On May 02 2012 21:48 Faya wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:35 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:31 Faya wrote:On May 02 2012 21:23 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:11 Faya wrote:
I'm so sick of this country where it used to be a land of debate, since sarko is prime minister, debates became schoolyard fight, with the same intellectual level as kids. I'm so sick of the right wing in France, left isn't 'love' and right isn't 'hate', it is just : left= concerned for most of the population, right=concerned for myself (and maybe my family).
This makes any debates sterile as fuck, results of the election will just show if the people of France is just shitty or if they show a little faith in humanity, somehow.
And finally, I am sick of my people of France, hating for 5 years the way of managing the country by Sarkozy by 75%, realising every now and then how the president is implicated in many dark affairs, increasing the debt of France by 2/3 to gifts to the richest etc,
AND NOW WHAT ? The second turn shows 53%/47% in the latest poll ? what made you change your point of view ? Or maybe one fourth of the french people is just like rats, running away when everything goes wrong and showing up from nowhere when horizons look better. You guys are the reason why americans and the rest of the world are making fun of us, as fleeing chickens, and if you're making sarkozy win again, after what he has done, you're just making them right.
I keep hope, sarkozy isn't on his way to win, and i'm already happy for the next 5 years, knowing that right-wing supporters will hide and have to lie, as they do all the time, to protect themselves and their money... You do realize that what makes debating hard is your condescending tone regarding anyone who doesn't think like you rather then "because of sarkozy". It's funny how everything wrong in the world right now is "because of Sarkozy" Do you have anything in your post you wish me to respond to ? Or are you just "throwing it out there" ? You see the point right here? aren't you condescending saying we just use the "anti-sarkozysm". What would you want me to say instead ? It is because of the crisis? WRONG (I told you, 2/3 of created debt in the last 5 years isn't due to the crisis but the way of running the public money, rapport cour des compte). So yes, everything a little bit aware of what's going on is saying "because of Sarkozy" because it is, and unfortunately it is not funny. Tonight, he will once again "enfumer" everybody, be more racist, gain pointsn and eventually win the elections, officially running a country of dumbass people, half-stupid, half-racist and half-selfish. You are aware that the "cour de compte" is led currently by a member of the socialist party (that Sarkozy named himself by the way, the right isn't as "sectaire" as you claim now ?) and that this repport can be criticized in a number of ways. You are also aware regarding the debt that at the time, François Hollande said that the gouvernement's action wasn't going far enough, and that France should increase its debt even more to deal with the crisis ? Are you aware that out of all the countries in Europe, France has been amongst the best at maintaining its "pouvoir d'achat" and limiting unemployment growth ?. Who is trying to "enfume" who ? So you put a socialist guy in charge of criticizing your management so you can blame the rapport, saying it was made by a socialist? Come on, this is not 'sectaire' indeed, it is pure insane and dirty machinations. Besides, increase the debt to deal with the crisis is what every leaders in Europeare talking about now, it is called 'supporting the growth' instead of Merkozy's idea of cutting every spendings. And Hollade should be proud to be the first one to go this way. Talking about the pouvoir d'achat; let's not forget the situation in France isn't the same in other countries, crisis didn't have as much damage as in other countries. France has the most protective relationship bank/state (kind of what Keynes wanted) which protected the population pouvoir d'achat. Don't put that on sarkozy's bravery, it's just the way France is for over 50 years now.
I'm confused... A couple of posts ago you said that Sarkozy was responsible for the debt and that without him there wouldn't have been a 500 Billion debt (you said that we would have had 500 Billion more to spend).
And now you are saying that you wish we had increased the debt even more to support growth ?
Can you clarify your opinion on this matter ?
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On May 02 2012 22:00 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:56 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 21:48 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:44 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 21:26 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 21:20 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 20:51 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:26 Geiko wrote:
[quote]
Don't you think "on va leur faire les poches" is a rather aggressive statement that can only generate hatred and violence ?
Btw you didn't address the second part of my post. Well, that's not the problem. Between -"On va leur faire les poches", meaning we need to tax lot more ultra rich people (just that you know, the average difference between top and lowest salaries in society of the CAC 40 has been multplied by 20 in thirty years) in a meeting, and -"Melenchon says that when you see a rich you have to "lui faire les poches"", meaning physically attack the rich and rob them, there is a big difference. So either you didn't listen to JLM and you repeated what Sarkozy says, and you just get manipulated like an idiot. Either you know that you are completely transforming a militant statement and you are being blatantly dishonest. Don't change the subject, I am talking about this precise sentence that you said. It's a problem when you guys are telling me that left vs right is a battle of love vs hate (sic). Please don't resort to insults such as "idiot", I'm not trying to be aggressive, lets keep this civil "on va leur faire les poches" literally means in French: "we are going to rob them". The use of that sentence is not innocent by JLM and he knows very well this will exacerbate the Anti-Rich sentiment that he is basing his campaign on. Because believe or not, in France, making money is something you should be ashamed of. And btw, you still didn't address the second part of my previous post. I agree with you so much Geiko. In france, it's a shame to be rich. In france when you support Sarkozy you are a selfish, and when you support Hollande, you are generous! I ask Melenchon's fan, why there isn't some Steve Jobs or Bill Gates in France? They are earning millions of dollars but how many jobs did they create? You think it's a shame they earn so much money? Fortunetaly that there are rich people in France! I don't understand how people can be so agressive against rich! Most of the time they deserve their money For every Steve Jobs there are half a dozen Paris Hiltons and a Madoff. Do they deserve their money? Paris hilton is an heiress. This father (or grand father) create several thousand jobs! And madoff is a shame, but not all boss of CAC 40 are like him! You don't get punished for the crimes of your forefathers, why should you profit from their success? You've worked hard to win money, why should someone prevent you from using the way you see fit (giving it to children) ? Committing crimes is a personal issue, as well as doing good deeds (you don't inherite a legion of honor for example) Money is something you've earned and now posses and you are free to give it to anyone you want. Why are you comparing different things ? I have now clarified my meaning in the quoted post. The comparison was one of convenience only. My meaning was that the inheritor has done nothing to deserve riches. Whether or not they inherited money from someone who earned their wealth and created jobs does not have any bearing on whether they themselves have done so. We can also turn this into an ideological debate instead of a political one if you want but I'm not sure that it fits the context of this thread. My question to you is: you inherite your genes from your parents, why shouldn't you inherite money. If you have beautiful parents, you'll most likely end up not too bad looking, did you deserve that ? Inequalities at birth are part of life, trying to reduce them to the extreme like what you are implying only puts more emphasis on the natural inequalities that already exists.
As always I tend to think that laws should be derived from compromises instead of high level principles. Regarding what you should inherit from your parents, trying to suppress any inequalities is futile/stupid. However, trying to reduce some and be more social about it sounds like a not so bad idea... 'stop being selfish and give a part of what you got without working for!'
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On May 02 2012 21:55 lain2501 wrote:
Whoever is elected, they have no power on central banks. Banks are the one that decide our life. I can't believe so much people have faith in voting. When I see on tv all those ignorant kids manifesting in the street. EVERY TIME it's the same shit, a damn fuckin circus all over the country. Talking talking talking, nobody as the fuckin solution coze it's not their job to find a solution anyway.
let's be responsible with our actions, instead of voting hoping somebody can make our life better, we should all work together our way out of the monetary system.
There are many candidates that want to bring down the power of banks you despise so much. The solution is not stopping voting, but rather voting for the good person, and convincing people around you to do the same.
Not voting is letting other decide for you.
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On May 02 2012 22:08 CptZouglou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 22:00 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:56 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 21:48 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:44 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 21:26 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 21:20 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 20:51 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
Well, that's not the problem.
Between
-"On va leur faire les poches", meaning we need to tax lot more ultra rich people (just that you know, the average difference between top and lowest salaries in society of the CAC 40 has been multplied by 20 in thirty years) in a meeting, and
-"Melenchon says that when you see a rich you have to "lui faire les poches"", meaning physically attack the rich and rob them,
there is a big difference.
So either you didn't listen to JLM and you repeated what Sarkozy says, and you just get manipulated like an idiot.
Either you know that you are completely transforming a militant statement and you are being blatantly dishonest.
Don't change the subject, I am talking about this precise sentence that you said. It's a problem when you guys are telling me that left vs right is a battle of love vs hate (sic). Please don't resort to insults such as "idiot", I'm not trying to be aggressive, lets keep this civil "on va leur faire les poches" literally means in French: "we are going to rob them". The use of that sentence is not innocent by JLM and he knows very well this will exacerbate the Anti-Rich sentiment that he is basing his campaign on. Because believe or not, in France, making money is something you should be ashamed of. And btw, you still didn't address the second part of my previous post. I agree with you so much Geiko. In france, it's a shame to be rich. In france when you support Sarkozy you are a selfish, and when you support Hollande, you are generous! I ask Melenchon's fan, why there isn't some Steve Jobs or Bill Gates in France? They are earning millions of dollars but how many jobs did they create? You think it's a shame they earn so much money? Fortunetaly that there are rich people in France! I don't understand how people can be so agressive against rich! Most of the time they deserve their money For every Steve Jobs there are half a dozen Paris Hiltons and a Madoff. Do they deserve their money? Paris hilton is an heiress. This father (or grand father) create several thousand jobs! And madoff is a shame, but not all boss of CAC 40 are like him! You don't get punished for the crimes of your forefathers, why should you profit from their success? You've worked hard to win money, why should someone prevent you from using the way you see fit (giving it to children) ? Committing crimes is a personal issue, as well as doing good deeds (you don't inherite a legion of honor for example) Money is something you've earned and now posses and you are free to give it to anyone you want. Why are you comparing different things ? I have now clarified my meaning in the quoted post. The comparison was one of convenience only. My meaning was that the inheritor has done nothing to deserve riches. Whether or not they inherited money from someone who earned their wealth and created jobs does not have any bearing on whether they themselves have done so. We can also turn this into an ideological debate instead of a political one if you want but I'm not sure that it fits the context of this thread. My question to you is: you inherite your genes from your parents, why shouldn't you inherite money. If you have beautiful parents, you'll most likely end up not too bad looking, did you deserve that ? Inequalities at birth are part of life, trying to reduce them to the extreme like what you are implying only puts more emphasis on the natural inequalities that already exists. As always I tend to think that laws should be derived from compromises instead of high level principles. Regarding what you should inherit from your parents, trying to suppress any inequalities is futile/stupid. However, trying to reduce some and be more social about it sounds like a not so bad idea... 'stop being selfish and give a part of what you got without working for!'
In France, the most important principles we inherited from "le siècle des lumières" is "l'égalité des droits".
Egalité des droits means just that, we are born we the same rights, the right to education, to justice, to freely express your opinions etc...
That's equality in rights, not equality in money, looks, family etc... Basically as long as inequalities at birth are moderated enough so that every body from every social background can have access to the same level of education and job opportunities, then this right is respected and we need no more social interference.
Inheriting money from your father does not contradict that right.
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On May 02 2012 21:20 -_-Quails wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 20:51 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:26 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:12 Geiko wrote:
When I hear Mélanchon say "When you see a rich person, you've got to take his money" (lui faire les poches) I can't help but ask myself where all the "love" between frenchmen is... This is a lie, from Sarkozy. Sarkozy manipulated Melenchon discourse, and everybody repeated that like idiots. Melenchon said "on va leur faire les poches" as a metaphor talking about ultra-rich people with abusive salaries. Like only a complete and utter moron would have thought that he was saying that when you see a rich person you have to rob him. But well, nobody checked and Sarkozy's trademrak outrance and manipulative deformation of people's speech worked perfectly. So, you didn't "hear" anything especially from JLM. You just repeated. Prêt à penser, welcome in Sarkozie. Don't you think "on va leur faire les poches" is a rather aggressive statement that can only generate hatred and violence ? Btw you didn't address the second part of my post. Well, that's not the problem. Between -"On va leur faire les poches", meaning we need to tax lot more ultra rich people (just that you know, the average difference between top and lowest salaries in society of the CAC 40 has been multplied by 20 in thirty years) in a meeting, and -"Melenchon says that when you see a rich you have to "lui faire les poches"", meaning physically attack the rich and rob them, there is a big difference. So either you didn't listen to JLM and you repeated what Sarkozy says, and you just get manipulated like an idiot. Either you know that you are completely transforming a militant statement and you are being blatantly dishonest. Don't change the subject, I am talking about this precise sentence that you said. It's a problem when you guys are telling me that left vs right is a battle of love vs hate (sic). Please don't resort to insults such as "idiot", I'm not trying to be aggressive, lets keep this civil "on va leur faire les poches" literally means in French: "we are going to rob them". The use of that sentence is not innocent by JLM and he knows very well this will exacerbate the Anti-Rich sentiment that he is basing his campaign on. Because believe or not, in France, making money is something you should be ashamed of. And btw, you still didn't address the second part of my previous post. I agree with you so much Geiko. In france, it's a shame to be rich. In france when you support Sarkozy you are a selfish, and when you support Hollande, you are generous! I ask Melenchon's fan, why there isn't some Steve Jobs or Bill Gates in France? They are earning millions of dollars but how many jobs did they create? You think it's a shame they earn so much money? Fortunetaly that there are rich people in France! I don't understand how people can be so agressive against rich! Most of the time they deserve their money For every Steve Jobs there are half a dozen Paris Hiltons and a Madoff. Do they deserve their money?
Imho:
Steve Jobs and other "RICH" people don't deserve their money as long as people that work FULL TIME at their companies can't even support their family or grant them an "ok/decent" living standart.
No, they don't deserve their money, they get rich because they exploit their employes and the state which has to support these guys because "Mr. Rich" is to cheap to pay them decently.
These "rich guys" actually leech from the system because they are the ones that create the working poor that need additional support (which the same rich guys don't want to pay a fair amount of taxes for).
Job creators? My ass.
This was diffrent ~30 years ago, this has to change again.
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On May 02 2012 22:04 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:58 Faya wrote:On May 02 2012 21:43 Geiko wrote:
You say that what put the greek down was Fiscal leaks. How is Hollande going to stop fiscal leaks when he is planning on raising taxes for rich people and thus favors the "évasion fiscale" ? "La France, tu l'aimes ou tu la quittes", you remember, if raising tax will increase fiscal leaks, then you're not patriotic and you assume to be a jerk to the country that made you rich in the first time. Sarkozy also said it would be normal to flee the country if tax raised, wtf would a president say that ? France is full of selfish bastards who would run away, and because non of the 47% are as rich, it means france is even full of wannabe selfish bastards, worse. Look at the americans, supporting the tax raise, this is patriotism. We are just Vichy. It's funny because Hollande and sarkozy seem to agree on this point, more taxes will encourage fiscal evasion and people fleeing the country. Here's a video of Hollande explaining this http://www.arretsurimages.net/vite.php?id=13309. Americans support more taxes because right now, rich people are only paying about 30% taxes on their revenues and they would be in favor of paying closer to 40 or 50% In France rich people already pay that much. Isn't paying more then half of what you make in taxes already patriotic enough ?
True patriots died for their country, when a person is earning 15.000€ a year or 1.5million, when you have to pay 40% of taxes, it means one will have 9000€ left while the rich will have 900.000€. Don't you think it could be fair to try and live with only 700.000€ a year ? Would it make a difference to the rich person? The point of raising tax is not to make the rich poor, it is just about asking some solidarity among the country of France, but it seems to hard for the french right-wing and its supporters. Let's just make a "soda tax" of one cent, it will cure the crisis...
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On May 02 2012 22:14 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:20 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 20:51 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:26 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:12 Geiko wrote:
When I hear Mélanchon say "When you see a rich person, you've got to take his money" (lui faire les poches) I can't help but ask myself where all the "love" between frenchmen is... This is a lie, from Sarkozy. Sarkozy manipulated Melenchon discourse, and everybody repeated that like idiots. Melenchon said "on va leur faire les poches" as a metaphor talking about ultra-rich people with abusive salaries. Like only a complete and utter moron would have thought that he was saying that when you see a rich person you have to rob him. But well, nobody checked and Sarkozy's trademrak outrance and manipulative deformation of people's speech worked perfectly. So, you didn't "hear" anything especially from JLM. You just repeated. Prêt à penser, welcome in Sarkozie. Don't you think "on va leur faire les poches" is a rather aggressive statement that can only generate hatred and violence ? Btw you didn't address the second part of my post. Well, that's not the problem. Between -"On va leur faire les poches", meaning we need to tax lot more ultra rich people (just that you know, the average difference between top and lowest salaries in society of the CAC 40 has been multplied by 20 in thirty years) in a meeting, and -"Melenchon says that when you see a rich you have to "lui faire les poches"", meaning physically attack the rich and rob them, there is a big difference. So either you didn't listen to JLM and you repeated what Sarkozy says, and you just get manipulated like an idiot. Either you know that you are completely transforming a militant statement and you are being blatantly dishonest. Don't change the subject, I am talking about this precise sentence that you said. It's a problem when you guys are telling me that left vs right is a battle of love vs hate (sic). Please don't resort to insults such as "idiot", I'm not trying to be aggressive, lets keep this civil "on va leur faire les poches" literally means in French: "we are going to rob them". The use of that sentence is not innocent by JLM and he knows very well this will exacerbate the Anti-Rich sentiment that he is basing his campaign on. Because believe or not, in France, making money is something you should be ashamed of. And btw, you still didn't address the second part of my previous post. I agree with you so much Geiko. In france, it's a shame to be rich. In france when you support Sarkozy you are a selfish, and when you support Hollande, you are generous! I ask Melenchon's fan, why there isn't some Steve Jobs or Bill Gates in France? They are earning millions of dollars but how many jobs did they create? You think it's a shame they earn so much money? Fortunetaly that there are rich people in France! I don't understand how people can be so agressive against rich! Most of the time they deserve their money For every Steve Jobs there are half a dozen Paris Hiltons and a Madoff. Do they deserve their money? Imho: Steve Jobs and other "RICH" people don't deserve their money as long as people that work FULL TIME at their companies can't even support their family or grant them an "ok/decent" living standart. No, they don't deserve their money, they get rich because they exploit their employes and the state which has to support these guys because "Mr. Rich" is to cheap to pay them decently. These "rich guys" actually leech from the system because they are the ones that create the working poor that need additional support (which the same rich guys don't want to pay a fair amount of taxes for). Job creators? My ass. This was diffrent ~30 years ago, this has to change again.
Apple was nothing 15 years ago and would most likely have gone bankrupt without Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs brought that company to what it is today, a company that employs tens of thousands of people around the world. You complain that salaries aren't high enough. Maybe. But without him, some of the workers there wouldn't even have a job at all.
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On May 02 2012 22:08 CptZouglou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 22:00 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:56 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 21:48 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:44 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 21:26 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 21:20 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 20:51 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:
[quote]
Well, that's not the problem.
Between
-"On va leur faire les poches", meaning we need to tax lot more ultra rich people (just that you know, the average difference between top and lowest salaries in society of the CAC 40 has been multplied by 20 in thirty years) in a meeting, and
-"Melenchon says that when you see a rich you have to "lui faire les poches"", meaning physically attack the rich and rob them,
there is a big difference.
So either you didn't listen to JLM and you repeated what Sarkozy says, and you just get manipulated like an idiot.
Either you know that you are completely transforming a militant statement and you are being blatantly dishonest.
Don't change the subject, I am talking about this precise sentence that you said. It's a problem when you guys are telling me that left vs right is a battle of love vs hate (sic). Please don't resort to insults such as "idiot", I'm not trying to be aggressive, lets keep this civil "on va leur faire les poches" literally means in French: "we are going to rob them". The use of that sentence is not innocent by JLM and he knows very well this will exacerbate the Anti-Rich sentiment that he is basing his campaign on. Because believe or not, in France, making money is something you should be ashamed of. And btw, you still didn't address the second part of my previous post. I agree with you so much Geiko. In france, it's a shame to be rich. In france when you support Sarkozy you are a selfish, and when you support Hollande, you are generous! I ask Melenchon's fan, why there isn't some Steve Jobs or Bill Gates in France? They are earning millions of dollars but how many jobs did they create? You think it's a shame they earn so much money? Fortunetaly that there are rich people in France! I don't understand how people can be so agressive against rich! Most of the time they deserve their money For every Steve Jobs there are half a dozen Paris Hiltons and a Madoff. Do they deserve their money? Paris hilton is an heiress. This father (or grand father) create several thousand jobs! And madoff is a shame, but not all boss of CAC 40 are like him! You don't get punished for the crimes of your forefathers, why should you profit from their success? You've worked hard to win money, why should someone prevent you from using the way you see fit (giving it to children) ? Committing crimes is a personal issue, as well as doing good deeds (you don't inherite a legion of honor for example) Money is something you've earned and now posses and you are free to give it to anyone you want. Why are you comparing different things ? I have now clarified my meaning in the quoted post. The comparison was one of convenience only. My meaning was that the inheritor has done nothing to deserve riches. Whether or not they inherited money from someone who earned their wealth and created jobs does not have any bearing on whether they themselves have done so. We can also turn this into an ideological debate instead of a political one if you want but I'm not sure that it fits the context of this thread. My question to you is: you inherite your genes from your parents, why shouldn't you inherite money. If you have beautiful parents, you'll most likely end up not too bad looking, did you deserve that ? Inequalities at birth are part of life, trying to reduce them to the extreme like what you are implying only puts more emphasis on the natural inequalities that already exists. As always I tend to think that laws should be derived from compromises instead of high level principles. Regarding what you should inherit from your parents, trying to suppress any inequalities is futile/stupid. However, trying to reduce some and be more social about it sounds like a not so bad idea... 'stop being selfish and give a part of what you got without working for!'
This is essentially my view on inheritance and inheritance tax. Should I achieve riches in a country without a substantial tax on large inheritances, then I will attempt to emulate the Gates and not the Hiltons.
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On May 02 2012 22:14 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 22:08 CptZouglou wrote:On May 02 2012 22:00 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:56 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 21:48 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:44 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 21:26 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 21:20 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 20:51 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:[quote] It's a problem when you guys are telling me that left vs right is a battle of love vs hate (sic). Please don't resort to insults such as "idiot", I'm not trying to be aggressive, lets keep this civil "on va leur faire les poches" literally means in French: "we are going to rob them". The use of that sentence is not innocent by JLM and he knows very well this will exacerbate the Anti-Rich sentiment that he is basing his campaign on. Because believe or not, in France, making money is something you should be ashamed of. And btw, you still didn't address the second part of my previous post. I agree with you so much Geiko. In france, it's a shame to be rich. In france when you support Sarkozy you are a selfish, and when you support Hollande, you are generous! I ask Melenchon's fan, why there isn't some Steve Jobs or Bill Gates in France? They are earning millions of dollars but how many jobs did they create? You think it's a shame they earn so much money? Fortunetaly that there are rich people in France! I don't understand how people can be so agressive against rich! Most of the time they deserve their money For every Steve Jobs there are half a dozen Paris Hiltons and a Madoff. Do they deserve their money? Paris hilton is an heiress. This father (or grand father) create several thousand jobs! And madoff is a shame, but not all boss of CAC 40 are like him! You don't get punished for the crimes of your forefathers, why should you profit from their success? You've worked hard to win money, why should someone prevent you from using the way you see fit (giving it to children) ? Committing crimes is a personal issue, as well as doing good deeds (you don't inherite a legion of honor for example) Money is something you've earned and now posses and you are free to give it to anyone you want. Why are you comparing different things ? I have now clarified my meaning in the quoted post. The comparison was one of convenience only. My meaning was that the inheritor has done nothing to deserve riches. Whether or not they inherited money from someone who earned their wealth and created jobs does not have any bearing on whether they themselves have done so. We can also turn this into an ideological debate instead of a political one if you want but I'm not sure that it fits the context of this thread. My question to you is: you inherite your genes from your parents, why shouldn't you inherite money. If you have beautiful parents, you'll most likely end up not too bad looking, did you deserve that ? Inequalities at birth are part of life, trying to reduce them to the extreme like what you are implying only puts more emphasis on the natural inequalities that already exists. As always I tend to think that laws should be derived from compromises instead of high level principles. Regarding what you should inherit from your parents, trying to suppress any inequalities is futile/stupid. However, trying to reduce some and be more social about it sounds like a not so bad idea... 'stop being selfish and give a part of what you got without working for!' In France, the most important principles we inherited from "le siècle des lumières" is "l'égalité des droits". Egalité des droits means just that, we are born we the same rights, the right to education, to justice, to freely express your opinions etc... That's equality in rights, not equality in money, looks, family etc... Basically as long as inequalities at birth are moderated enough so that every body from every social background can have access to the same level of education and job opportunities, then this right is respected and we need no more social interference. Inheriting money from your father does not contradict that right.
I agree with you. However, in order to make this happen, you need teachers, social services, grants, etc... for that you need taxes to fund it. And it seems legit to get this money from inheritance tax.
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On May 02 2012 22:18 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 22:14 Velr wrote:On May 02 2012 21:20 -_-Quails wrote:On May 02 2012 20:51 darkshad30000 wrote:On May 02 2012 20:38 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:26 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 20:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:On May 02 2012 20:12 Geiko wrote:
When I hear Mélanchon say "When you see a rich person, you've got to take his money" (lui faire les poches) I can't help but ask myself where all the "love" between frenchmen is... This is a lie, from Sarkozy. Sarkozy manipulated Melenchon discourse, and everybody repeated that like idiots. Melenchon said "on va leur faire les poches" as a metaphor talking about ultra-rich people with abusive salaries. Like only a complete and utter moron would have thought that he was saying that when you see a rich person you have to rob him. But well, nobody checked and Sarkozy's trademrak outrance and manipulative deformation of people's speech worked perfectly. So, you didn't "hear" anything especially from JLM. You just repeated. Prêt à penser, welcome in Sarkozie. Don't you think "on va leur faire les poches" is a rather aggressive statement that can only generate hatred and violence ? Btw you didn't address the second part of my post. Well, that's not the problem. Between -"On va leur faire les poches", meaning we need to tax lot more ultra rich people (just that you know, the average difference between top and lowest salaries in society of the CAC 40 has been multplied by 20 in thirty years) in a meeting, and -"Melenchon says that when you see a rich you have to "lui faire les poches"", meaning physically attack the rich and rob them, there is a big difference. So either you didn't listen to JLM and you repeated what Sarkozy says, and you just get manipulated like an idiot. Either you know that you are completely transforming a militant statement and you are being blatantly dishonest. Don't change the subject, I am talking about this precise sentence that you said. It's a problem when you guys are telling me that left vs right is a battle of love vs hate (sic). Please don't resort to insults such as "idiot", I'm not trying to be aggressive, lets keep this civil "on va leur faire les poches" literally means in French: "we are going to rob them". The use of that sentence is not innocent by JLM and he knows very well this will exacerbate the Anti-Rich sentiment that he is basing his campaign on. Because believe or not, in France, making money is something you should be ashamed of. And btw, you still didn't address the second part of my previous post. I agree with you so much Geiko. In france, it's a shame to be rich. In france when you support Sarkozy you are a selfish, and when you support Hollande, you are generous! I ask Melenchon's fan, why there isn't some Steve Jobs or Bill Gates in France? They are earning millions of dollars but how many jobs did they create? You think it's a shame they earn so much money? Fortunetaly that there are rich people in France! I don't understand how people can be so agressive against rich! Most of the time they deserve their money For every Steve Jobs there are half a dozen Paris Hiltons and a Madoff. Do they deserve their money? Imho: Steve Jobs and other "RICH" people don't deserve their money as long as people that work FULL TIME at their companies can't even support their family or grant them an "ok/decent" living standart. No, they don't deserve their money, they get rich because they exploit their employes and the state which has to support these guys because "Mr. Rich" is to cheap to pay them decently. These "rich guys" actually leech from the system because they are the ones that create the working poor that need additional support (which the same rich guys don't want to pay a fair amount of taxes for). Job creators? My ass. This was diffrent ~30 years ago, this has to change again. Apple was nothing 15 years ago and would most likely have gone bankrupt without Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs brought that company to what it is today, a company that employs tens of thousands of people around the world. You complain that salaries aren't high enough. Maybe. But without him, some of the workers there wouldn't even have a job at all.
Yeah, because people would not loev "multimedia-stuff" apple creates if not for steve jobs. YEAH RIGHT... No one would have to produce this shit and no one would have had the idea.. YEAH RIGHT.
And my argument wasn't even about Apple, no clue why you want to talk about that asshole of a company.
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On May 02 2012 22:16 Faya wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 22:04 Geiko wrote:On May 02 2012 21:58 Faya wrote:On May 02 2012 21:43 Geiko wrote:
You say that what put the greek down was Fiscal leaks. How is Hollande going to stop fiscal leaks when he is planning on raising taxes for rich people and thus favors the "évasion fiscale" ? "La France, tu l'aimes ou tu la quittes", you remember, if raising tax will increase fiscal leaks, then you're not patriotic and you assume to be a jerk to the country that made you rich in the first time. Sarkozy also said it would be normal to flee the country if tax raised, wtf would a president say that ? France is full of selfish bastards who would run away, and because non of the 47% are as rich, it means france is even full of wannabe selfish bastards, worse. Look at the americans, supporting the tax raise, this is patriotism. We are just Vichy. It's funny because Hollande and sarkozy seem to agree on this point, more taxes will encourage fiscal evasion and people fleeing the country. Here's a video of Hollande explaining this http://www.arretsurimages.net/vite.php?id=13309. Americans support more taxes because right now, rich people are only paying about 30% taxes on their revenues and they would be in favor of paying closer to 40 or 50% In France rich people already pay that much. Isn't paying more then half of what you make in taxes already patriotic enough ? True patriots died for their country, when a person is earning 15.000€ a year or 1.5million, when you have to pay 40% of taxes, it means one will have 9000€ left while the rich will have 900.000€. Don't you think it could be fair to try and live with only 700.000€ a year ? Would it make a difference to the rich person? The point of raising tax is not to make the rich poor, it is just about asking some solidarity among the country of France, but it seems to hard for the french right-wing and its supporters. Let's just make a "soda tax" of one cent, it will cure the crisis...
This is turning more and more into an ideological debate and less and less about political choices for our country. François Hollande and Ségolène Royale each make 360 000€ per year. Do they need that much money to live ? This is a typical case of "faites ce que je dis, pas ce que je fais".
Don't try to make this into something else then ideology because it's nothing more. Raising taxes for the extremely wealthy will have ZERO impact on taxe revenues, it's just a demagogical thing to say (Hollande even admitted to this). The only thing this will lead to is rich people fleeing France and paying less taxes in France.
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I would like an example of a country where "the rich people fleed en mass" because taxes increased.
Please, enlighten me.
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EPT
