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On March 21 2012 09:00 Geiko wrote:Excuse me but what the hell is the "Economist Intelligence Unit" and what legitimity do these people have to judge the quality of a democracy ? From what I saw of the link you provided, they have very subjective criterias involved and an unclear methodology on how they obtain their results.
Not that hard to find out : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economist_Intelligence_Unit
Looks like quite serious and legitimate to me.
On March 21 2012 09:00 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 08:40 Nyarly wrote:
I was upset with all the decision he made and all he said about immigration, foreign people and french nationality.
Hortefeux was judged guilty two times in 6 months for racist speech. Isn't that enough to upset you ?
And i'm not going to talk about guéant since he mysteriously got cleaned for what he said.
There are several notable politician from the PS who were also condemned for racist speeches. i won't get into that game of discussing individual cases, surely you agree that one person in a party does not represent the ideas for all the party itself...
You should get to discussing individual cases, that way everybody could notice that those guys that were condemned ahve been officially punished by the PS for what they have done. Unlike Hortefeux that is still one of Sarkozy's closest advisor, or Guéant who's has some position in the government ( something minor I think can't remember what ....  ). I'm not ever talking about Patrick Buisson, who has been chief redactor for Minute, a right extremist paper, and who is now the opinion specialist in the president campaign team. One of the strategy from the UMP is to flatter xenophobic fears to catch FN's votes, that has been widely proven.
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On March 21 2012 07:01 Geiko wrote:
-Purchasing Power has actually gone up in France during the 5 last years (source OCDE stats). This is far from being the case for all the European countries through the crisis.
Just want to quote two respected French Papers ( Le Monde and Libération ) , that actually decypher (fact checking) that statement used by the goverment. I'm sorry for it being in French i'll try to explain what those article are both saying.
Source :
http://desintox.blogs.liberation.fr/blog/2012/03/pouvoir-dachat-sarkozy-enjolive.html
http://decodeurs.blog.lemonde.fr/2012/02/13/larsenal-de-chiffres-anti-hollande-et-m-fillon/
So in a nutshell, it is true that the Purchasing Power raw figure has gone up during the past five years. However that figure describe the global revenue of the country. If you divide this by the number of family (which has been increasing during those five years), the raise of the Purchase power (by family) is far less that what the government says ( it went up big time during 2007, then was either stagnating or lowering since then).
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You lose your time i already answered to that page 3 but this guy only reads what he wants, never trying to understand WHY the things we state are problems (epad, non-event? Really? Not for the majority of the population.... And Spending power? Already proven wrong, but ignored. Referendums? Yeah, take us for fools and "interpret" the answer when you asked a simple question, and a few years later, argue like referendums are the way to go. Ahah.)
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The candidates are the same people in the last 10 years and most of them have the same background.
No real choice in my opinion, so I probably won't vote this year.
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On March 21 2012 12:58 Boblion wrote:
I doubt that someone like Breivik have the same set of values than us but w/e.
I've been to school with xenophobic people, and we got along pretty well. There isn't a huge gap between "them" and "us", there are just people who are more or less xenophobic.
On March 21 2012 12:58 Boblion wrote:
So let's get it straight once for all, i have never talked about "multicultural issues" (read my posts) all i have said (like Le Pen) is that multiculturalism creates people like Breivik. (he wrote a whole book about his hatred of Islam ffs). Now obviously it doesn't mean that everyone will become a terrorist but things like that are bound to happen with xenophobic people. You can blame the FN for fueling xenophobia, i don't really care. Again i'm not for or against multiculturalism i don't think it is a reversible process anyway (at least until a major disaster).
On March 21 2012 08:20 Boblion wrote:
Also his quote makes sense to some extend since he is against multiculturalism (which is the reason why terrorism happen btw).
I guess you don't count terrorism as an issue then?
On March 21 2012 12:58 Boblion wrote:
You get it ! The rest is mere details and it will never explain the motivation of the terrorist, you are only describing his means.
How is the rest mere details when you're talking about a very specific thing (terrorism)?
"Let's get this straight once and for all", I'm simply correcting your simplistic view of this phenomenon. No, it doesn't happen because of "multiculture" (which is a debatable concept if you use Geertz' definition of culture), since multicultural societies have existed for a very long time (Al-Andalus comes to my mind, again). You spoke of mass media yourself, and chose at the same time to ignore the factor of power, which has been underlined earlier in this thread : terrorism is simply a way to strike the people's mind, as is the only form of warfare available to overpowered groups.
Terrorism itself is a mean, and someone's terrorist will be another person's freedom fighter. We are talking about means.
I do agree that conflicts come from diverging opinions and ideas (if you rule out economical reasons), which are only a part of culture : it's therefore not a "cultural" conflict.
If you say that MIR members and a random police officer have a different "culture" just because of different political opinions, well, it's a logical fallacy.
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TL is the last website where I thought find a thread about French election!
As far I'm concerned, I read maybe 10 pages of this topic and I'm so suprised by the number of people who wanted to vote for Mélenchon. In my opinion, Mélenchon (and Le Pen) are not a solution. They talk about real problem yes, but a big part of their program is a joke.
Now, I'm pretty sure that if Mme Royal had won in 2007, France would be in the same situation as Italy or Spain.
The retirement law souhld be done. Look at all the country in Europe, people work up 65 years. Mr Hollande said that law was stupid but now he doesn't want to change it. He says all and his contrary. Most of the controversy were create and amplified by journalist. Fouquet's (you would rather Sarkozy had gone to Mac Donald to celebrate his victory), and all judicial affairs in which you put in Sarkozy (He has never been condemned).
People talk about that, but nobody talk about Hollande wage. He earns more than our current president! And what about his QG (more than 40 000euros).
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On March 21 2012 23:13 darkshad30000 wrote:
TL is the last website where I thought find a thread about French election!
As far I'm concerned, I read maybe 10 pages of this topic and I'm so suprised by the number of people who wanted to vote for Mélenchon. In my opinion, Mélenchon (and Le Pen) are not a solution. They talk about real problem yes, but a big part of their program is a joke.
Now, I'm pretty sure that if Mme Royal had won in 2007, France would be in the same situation as Italy or Spain.
The retirement law souhld be done. Look at all the country in Europe, people work up 65 years. Mr Hollande said that law was stupid but now he doesn't want to change it. He says all and his contrary. Most of the controversy were create and amplified by journalist. Fouquet's (you would rather Sarkozy had gone to Mac Donald to celebrate his victory), and all judicial affairs in which you put in Sarkozy (He has never been condemned).
People talk about that, but nobody talk about Hollande wage. He earns more than our current president! And what about his QG (more than 40 000euros).
I would be delighted to discuss the program of Mélenchon with you.What part of it is a joke ?
PS never denied that a retirement reform had to be done what was criticized was how it was done.
Fouquet's was a symbol. As the vacations in a luxury yacht. When you are President of the Republic, symbols do matters. The way you communicate do matters. Because you represent every french citizen.
ps : and being "pretty sure" of the situation we would have been in if PS candidate Segolene Royal was elected back in 2007 does not seems like .. scientific accurate, as far as arguing is concerned 
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On March 21 2012 18:13 Kerm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 07:01 Geiko wrote:
-Purchasing Power has actually gone up in France during the 5 last years (source OCDE stats). This is far from being the case for all the European countries through the crisis.
Just want to quote two respected French Papers ( Le Monde and Libération )
wowowow, since when Liberation is respected? they're as biased as le Figaro... Just don't read that
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On March 21 2012 23:29 LeLfe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 18:13 Kerm wrote:On March 21 2012 07:01 Geiko wrote:
-Purchasing Power has actually gone up in France during the 5 last years (source OCDE stats). This is far from being the case for all the European countries through the crisis.
Just want to quote two respected French Papers ( Le Monde and Libération ) wowowow, since when Liberation is respected? they're as biased as le Figaro... Just don't read that
Figaro is a respected paper also. That's "Presse d'opinion", Liberation is more left wing, Figaro more right wing, but their professionalism is recognized. What's the use of forbidding things to people ?
I say do read them and make you own opinion.
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On March 21 2012 23:31 Kerm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 23:29 LeLfe wrote:On March 21 2012 18:13 Kerm wrote:On March 21 2012 07:01 Geiko wrote:
-Purchasing Power has actually gone up in France during the 5 last years (source OCDE stats). This is far from being the case for all the European countries through the crisis.
Just want to quote two respected French Papers ( Le Monde and Libération ) wowowow, since when Liberation is respected? they're as biased as le Figaro... Just don't read that Figaro is a respected paper also. That's "Presse d'opinion", Liberation is more left wing, Figaro more right wing, but their professionalism is recognized. What's the use of forbidding things to people ? I say do read them and make you own opinion.
I somehow have a problem with basing any kind of analysis on a study made by a paper known to be partial, but your definition is right.
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On March 21 2012 23:44 LeLfe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 23:31 Kerm wrote:On March 21 2012 23:29 LeLfe wrote:On March 21 2012 18:13 Kerm wrote:On March 21 2012 07:01 Geiko wrote:
-Purchasing Power has actually gone up in France during the 5 last years (source OCDE stats). This is far from being the case for all the European countries through the crisis.
Just want to quote two respected French Papers ( Le Monde and Libération ) wowowow, since when Liberation is respected? they're as biased as le Figaro... Just don't read that Figaro is a respected paper also. That's "Presse d'opinion", Liberation is more left wing, Figaro more right wing, but their professionalism is recognized. What's the use of forbidding things to people ? I say do read them and make you own opinion. I somehow have a problem with basing any kind of analysis on a study made by a paper known to be partial, but your definition is right.
That's why i quoted TWO papers, that were saying the same thing. I hope your problem is solved
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On March 21 2012 23:31 Kerm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 23:29 LeLfe wrote:On March 21 2012 18:13 Kerm wrote:On March 21 2012 07:01 Geiko wrote:
-Purchasing Power has actually gone up in France during the 5 last years (source OCDE stats). This is far from being the case for all the European countries through the crisis.
Just want to quote two respected French Papers ( Le Monde and Libération ) wowowow, since when Liberation is respected? they're as biased as le Figaro... Just don't read that Figaro is a respected paper also. That's "Presse d'opinion", Liberation is more left wing, Figaro more right wing, but their professionalism is recognized. What's the use of forbidding things to people ? I say do read them and make you own opinion.
Le Figaro is less and less respected. It's a property of Dassault who does whatever he wants with it because there is no agreement about the independance of the redaction. Dassault is one of the wealthiest French industrial, and a right wing MP, friend with Sarkozy.
People in France call it La Pravda is reference to the Stalinian official paper in Soviet Union.
Libération is something else. Firstly it is independant from its actionnaire, at least partially, and they do not have the right to interfeer with the content. It has been founded by Jean Paul Sartre and people such as Serge July in the aftermath of May 68, and has always been a strongly opinionated left wing paper.
However, its quality has in my opinion decreased with the arrival of Laurent Joffrin at its head, ten years ago, and more recently, of Nicolas Demorand, who probably has a political agenda himself. Hopefully, he is getting into his next power job soon. Libération has had some cover that were really trashy and tabloid like, in the last months.
Le Monde is fine. It's better since Colombani has left. It has been business oriented and very liberal for a long time, but it's now a more firmly left wing newspaper. They try to be be less opinionated than Libé and Le Figaro.
In my opinion, they are all extremely good if you know what you are reading. Of course when you read a Libération editorial, you know that this will be a very firmly left wing orientation, and you have to take it in consideration.
I read Libé and Le Monde every day, since I am a leftist.
Anyway, hopefully Sarkozy and his crew of Jokers are getting out. Hortefeux, Guéant, Morano, Besson, Copé, those people are not at the level of governing a hot dog stand.
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So just received the voting material and the 4 pages programs/tracts, had a lot of fun. Only 4 pages for each candidate means it is far fo complete, but still interesting to see what choices were made. So here are my totally biased impressions.
Nathalie Arthaud (LO, trotskyst) : Incredibly orthodox trotskyst rhetoric, I can't help but like the tone, the use of "grand capital", and the overall bluntness about revolution. Printed on a cheaper paper than everyone else, obviously. Hope they'll keep putting up candidate for years to come, still hoping for the upcoming "Grand Soir". I mean, for all the talk about what French identity is, I think by now trotskist have earned a place in it...
Nicolas Poutou (NPA, trotskyst) : tamed campaign for such a left wing party, not far enough from their main competitor (Mélanchon). The guy is kinda cute on photos though. A possible election is not excluded, contrary to LO's tract. Disappointing.
Jean-Luc Mélanchon : Nice motto "prenez le pouvoir" (take the power"), demagogy at its finest. I don't know who wrote that, but some of the stuff sounds a bit strange ("Faire France de tout bois", not even sure what that is supposed to mean). We are at three anti system candidate already, and I'm getting tired of it, especially coming from an ex socialist that has been senator for 30 years.
I like some of the measures though, such as a plea for a more independant justice.
Europe is blamed more here than in any other program, even naming Bolkenstein, that's smart.
François Hollande, PS (left) : I like the guy, much less the program. His fiscal program is not very clear, and a bit everywhere, it seems like he wants to complicate the current system even more. Some of the proposed measure seem a bit strange, or at least not that important (every law will need a handicap part it more or less says, really ?). Oh yeah, and still that likely inconstitutional "75% tax", he could have dropped that one... Not that bad for me, but I'm a bit disppointed.
Oh yeah, and his talk about "change" sounds a bit like a cheap ad campaign...
Eva Joly (Green) : I don't understand some of the hatred for her but anyway.... Classical propositions for the party, nothing really stands out from what I expected. More power to the state, not too much talk about how to finance their measure. I kinda like their propositions on society though. The letter in the back is cute. Green and white everywhere, very sexy...
François Bayrou (center) : pleasantly surprised. Well, the main reason is that he insists quite a lot on his specialty education (he was a pretty decent Education minister). His economic position is a bit disappointing, I think it kinda sounds "we are indebted, we are all going to die". Oh yeah, and he's also one of those guy who is sure that Europe will follow France anywhere...
He kinda talks about corruption and conflict of interests, which is more reasonnable way to be "anti system", but still...
There a calendar for its first measures, which I dislike "French people will give a majority [to my project]", talking about the upcoming elections in Parliament. Really ?
Orange is ugly, ewwww
Nicolas Sarkozy (right) : Here again, I was disappointed. I think is 2007 program was kinda intersting,even if I disagreed but here more than half of the text has an anti immigration undertone to it. Not much economy at all. Emphasis on authority and strength. Ok, not my cup of tea...
Nicolas Dupont-Aignan (Gaullist ?) : back to "anti system" candidates. I missed it. Here again we can read cheap advertising, opposing "their failure" to "what i want". Yeah. For a rightist candidate, he hurts Sarkozy more than anything imho, poiting out for instance that his security results have not been good... As a leftist, thank you, I'll take it. Oh yeah, and there's free downloading on internet among his propositions, I like his thinking.
In the back there is a nice biography of our favorite candidate and how amazing he is in person and as a mayor. WTF. I think this tract lacks a photo of De Gaulle.
Marine Le Pen (far right) : Big letters, bold everywhere, I think I'm too young to vote for her... Well, not too much to talk about, she dislikes Europe, islamist and immigrants. And she wants to reintroduce the teaching of French history in school. I think that's pretty funny. Oh yeah, and the system hate her, she's the victim of everybody else and so on and so forth.
Can we have your father back ? At least, he knew how to deliver a speech...
Jacques Cheminade (martian ?) : "a world without the City nor Wall Street". Is he running for World president or something ? Lots of gibberish. The usual stuff for his (numerous) followers, you know, expressions so that the member of the sect recognize themselves (catalyst twice at the beginning, a strange image with a craddle...). A back page with a quote from Jaurès, and one from De Gaulle, nice.
That being said, a website asked them all what their 5 favorite films were, and we have the same tastes ! (http://www.allocine.fr/article/dossiers/cinema/dossier-18591822/).
A pleasant reading overall, but I'm not that sure that helped me with my vote... but it seems that Holland will be elected anyway.
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On April 19 2012 22:53 corumjhaelen wrote:
And she wants to reintroduce the teaching of French history in school. I think that's pretty funny.
As an American, may I ask why this is funny? I've always assumed that different countries would learn about their own history. But as I speak with my students in Korea I've found that they actually know A LOT of American history. Is it the same deal in France? I mean, shouldn't French history be a part of the French curriculum? Or is it funny because it already is..?
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On April 19 2012 23:05 Fighter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 22:53 corumjhaelen wrote:
And she wants to reintroduce the teaching of French history in school. I think that's pretty funny.
As an American, may I ask why this is funny? I've always assumed that different countries would learn about their own history. But as I speak with my students in Korea I've found that they actually know A LOT of American history. Is it the same deal in France? I mean, shouldn't French history be a part of the French curriculum? Or is it funny because it already is..?
Yeah I wasn't clear here, but I quite distincly remember studying some French history back in middle/high school... No idea what she means honestly^^
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On April 19 2012 23:08 corumjhaelen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 23:05 Fighter wrote:On April 19 2012 22:53 corumjhaelen wrote:
And she wants to reintroduce the teaching of French history in school. I think that's pretty funny.
As an American, may I ask why this is funny? I've always assumed that different countries would learn about their own history. But as I speak with my students in Korea I've found that they actually know A LOT of American history. Is it the same deal in France? I mean, shouldn't French history be a part of the French curriculum? Or is it funny because it already is..? Yeah I wasn't clear here, but I quite distincly remember studying some French history back in middle/high school... No idea what she means honestly^^
She means that nowadays, history is not entirely centred anymore on France, that on top of learning mostly French history, we also spend some times trying to teach kids what happened elsewhere.
Since it may educate people, open their minds, teach them than there were also a rich history in, let say, Arab countries, and that France has not been the centre of the multiverse since the Big Bang and before, she is against it. Because you know, it could mean that people become tolerant or something and stop considering arabs as motorcycle thieves ans black people as slightly evolved monkeys.
To be honest she probably doesn't even believe herself that our hitorical studies are not centered anymore on France. She just keeps her strategy of lying outrageously as long as it supports her "we are invaded by arabs and multiculturalist" crap poisonous bullshit.
Chauvinistic racist nationalistic close minded morons. I fucking hate the FN.
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Sarkozy really needs to get elected. I really don't like him and I think he's a liar. He's kind of an asshole who does a lot of shit under the table for himself and his group of very rich friends. It's honestly horrible. Unfortunately we can't have Hollande as a president. He'll run France into the ground harder than the Titanic ran itself into an iceberg. He doesn't have what it takes to be a president and honestly France is already too far left. We need to go a bit more towards the US-model and less towards the socialist one.
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I think it's just flattering their electorate by making an empty promise and implying that somehow children don't learn about French history anymore.
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Biff, I'm quite curious, where exactly do you live? What department and/or city?
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EPT
