|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
United States43536 Posts
On August 08 2018 17:10 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2018 16:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
So what is it about the geographical, cultural, social, economic differences, or historical development of the US as a whole that has caused so much gun violence?
I would wager that the massive proliferation of guns plays at least some small part. I would wager that your Northern Ireland police force carries guns for a reason. Probably because you have extremely bold criminals that really don't follow the law up there and are willing to open fire on officers of the law. Now, take that same situation, and apply it to various parts of the U.S., particularly rural areas. Now, imagine that when you make a call, sometimes you have to wait at bare minimum 5 minutes for an officer to show up, often times it's 10 minutes plus, sometimes longer (as high as thirty minutes or so). Do remember, that the criminals in the U.S. are very different from ones in the U.K. on average, they are much more bold, desperate, and willing to do whatever it takes, whether they are armed or not (and on average, they tend to be armed). Now if you've thought of that, now you know why some people value firearms for self-defense. It's not really that preposterous of an idea when you think of it that way. You have a similar situation in Northern Ireland where all officers are armed for a reason. As a civilian in the United States, you sometimes depending on geographic location and circumstance, cannot wait out for an officer for 30 minutes when a desperate crack head who is on his 3rd strike breaks into your home and you see his face (i.e. he's probably fucked if you identify him). Versus a similar situation in the U.K., a burglar breaks into your home, he's probably going to not engage you because he isn't going to be so bold to attack you due to various different circumstances (because chances are they get away with it or have a much milder sentence due to how your prosecution system works).
Wow
|
United States43536 Posts
That level of ignorance about Northern Ireland is, I guess, a testament to how far things have come since the Good Friday Agreement. So that’s something?
|
On August 08 2018 17:10 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2018 16:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
So what is it about the geographical, cultural, social, economic differences, or historical development of the US as a whole that has caused so much gun violence?
I would wager that the massive proliferation of guns plays at least some small part. I would wager that your Northern Ireland police force carries guns for a reason. Probably because you have extremely bold criminals that really don't follow the law up there and are willing to open fire on officers of the law. Now, take that same situation, and apply it to various parts of the U.S., particularly rural areas. Now, imagine that when you make a call, sometimes you have to wait at bare minimum 5 minutes for an officer to show up, often times it's 10 minutes plus, sometimes longer (as high as thirty minutes or so). Do remember, that the criminals in the U.S. are very different from ones in the U.K. on average, they are much more bold, desperate, and willing to do whatever it takes, whether they are armed or not (and on average, they tend to be armed). Now if you've thought of that, now you know why some people value firearms for self-defense. It's not really that preposterous of an idea when you think of it that way. You have a similar situation in Northern Ireland where all officers are armed for a reason. As a civilian in the United States, you sometimes depending on geographic location and circumstance, cannot wait out for an officer for 30 minutes when a desperate crack head who is on his 3rd strike breaks into your home and you see his face (i.e. he's probably fucked if you identify him). Versus a similar situation in the U.K., a burglar breaks into your home, he's probably going to not engage you because he isn't going to be so bold to attack you due to various different circumstances (because chances are they get away with it or have a much milder sentence due to how your prosecution system works).
Wow really? How does someone be so oblivious? First it was Swiss gun laws, then knife crime, now it is NI.
Also criminals in USA are apparently just more innately bold and desperate. The hell?
Are you just trolling at this point, because if you are good job.
|
On August 09 2018 00:29 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2018 18:50 Dan HH wrote:On August 08 2018 17:40 Velr wrote:Individual rights are also highly valued in the U.S. unlike many socialized Western countries; good example of this is the fact that double jeopardy to this day still exists in the U.S., meanwhile the U.K. abolished it in 2005 simply due to one case. Taking away someone's rights is considered a pretty huge ordeal; luckily for me I live in a society that values said rights rather than one where the greater good of society is majority of the time placed above the minority/individual. This has to be sarcasm? Amount of people in Jail per capita? 3 Strikes rule? The friggin Death Penalty? Oh how you value the rights/freedom of your people... You sacrifice more individuals on the Altar of your ideas than any other western country - by far. Btw: Double Jeopardy is retarded and how anyone could defend it is beyond me. In the very next post after giving the abolishment of double jeopardy as a 'good example' of countries not respecting individual rights as much as the US, he argues that criminals in the US are more desperate than in the UK because of three strike rules and heftier sentences. The logic he puts forth in this thread has the consistency of explosive diarrhea. How many people in Belgium/U.K/Australia/etc. react like this when the police order you to stand down after you just committed a crime? + Show Spoiler +I'm pretty sure that number is close to zero. It isn't just how the prosecution works that causes criminals to become desperate, it's also a whole slew of other factors. But good job straw manning like you typically do. Criminals in the U.S. ARE different. Different situations dictate different responses.
I shouldn't have to explain this to a native English speaker:
You said that the UK's abolishment of double jeopardy is a good example of individual rights not being as highly valued in other Western countries as it is in the US.
In the next post you said that criminals in the US are more desperate and bold, you exemplified this with 'a crack head who is on 3rd strike' and even mentioned milder sentences in the UK.
I implied without subtlety that by identifying US laws leading to significantly more people being incarcerated for longer periods of time as a cause for the desperation and boldness of criminals you unwittingly gave a better example of not valuing individual rights, one with the opposite conclusion of your previous post. In which your example was also a law that helps get more people incarcerated, but to a much lesser degree by your own account.
And now you quote me and give a reply that only makes sense if you replace the text in my previous post with 'Criminals in the US are not different from other countries'. That's what a strawman is, arguing against something other than what your interlocutor has said, because it's easier. Something you've done countless times in this thread while telling everyone they're strawmanning you.
|
Since people were comparing countries with respect to police shootings and stuff: Swedish police have apparently been watching too many American cop shows, they are at 6 kills so far this year, which is only a factor of ~2.5 or so behind the rate in the USA once you adjust for population size.
The other day a 20 year old autistic guy (mental level ~3 years old) was playing with a plastic toygun outside when he was shot 4 times. Toy sellers really should be forced to add red warning signs "If a police officer sees you with this toy he may legally execute you".
Yesterday an autistic 16 year old, also playing with a plastic stormtrooper rifle was thankfully not shot, but they broke his arm in three places when trying to handcuff him.
Like personally I feel bad if I accidentally open a door in someones face, this guy breaks the arm of a mentally disabled 16 year old child and the only thing he has to say is "He was lucky I didnt shoot him". I wonder if they select for psychopaths these days -.-.
Things were so different 20 years ago. I remember during the antifa riots in Gothenburg 2001, some rioter was repeatedly trying to smash the head of an unconscious police officer with a big rock, other police first shot warning shots several times before shooting the guy once and calling an ambulance (he lived). There was still a huge uproar and a big trial (the police was found not guilty).
I wonder what changed. Violence against the population used to be considered a big deal.
Are the trends as bad in the rest of Europe or is Swedish police an outlier?
There are certainly a lot more guns in the streets now than there used to be, so that could explain why the police are more scared/trigger happy. It doesn't really explain why the public is more OK with average innocent joes being killed/hurt by law enforcement though. Maybe social cohesion is faltering, and people just care less about others in general. That would be sad.
|
SuperStarThanos no longer requires a massive arsenal of guns. He already has all the Infinitely Bad Argument Stones he needs to kill half the universe and impress Lady Death, including the Red Herring Stone, the False Dichotomy Stone, the Hasty Generalization Stone and the Strawman Stone, all of which are put to devastating use against the Mass Shooting Thread Avengers. Can Teamliquid's 200+ oversaturated mightiest heroes including but not limited to random dudes with silly sounding names Captain Kwarkmerica, Jockmcplopman, evilfatsh1tman, the Velr-sion, Broetchenholerman, Dangermousecatdogtalkingraccoon, and some guy who just calls himself Aveng3r defeat SST with their attempts at sound argumentation?
User was warned for this post
Edit:
Sorry for pushing the envelope on the silliness. Couldn't help myself.
Anyway, on a more serious note, and to pile on this countering of bad arguments, I don't see why SST thinks you cannot do a comparative analysis of Japan and EU countries. I don't think anyone here said you cannot discuss the social, cultural, economic, etc. factors that make Japan a safer place from violence or terrorist attacks than some other countries. It's just that that's a completely irrelevant discussion. If this were the "terrorism in Europe" thread, then maybe such a contrasting comparison would be warranted, and yet that discussion would do nothing to negate the super obvious fact that fewer guns per capita = lower rates of gun violence.
Maybe Europe is doing something wrong with regards to terrorism? Perhaps Japan is not as high up on the list of Islamic extremist attack targets because unlike countries like France and the UK, they don't bomb the Middle East? Maybe there are other factors like strict limits on migration/immigration? But these are irrelevant talking points that have nothing to do with the comparison of: US more guns -> more gun violence, wheareas EU fewer guns -> less gun violence. Nor would such an analysis negate this obvious fact. As a matter of fact, Japan is just another of many examples of developed countries that don't have lots of guns and therefore don't have lots of shootings.
"No no one has brought up a specific country with comparatively lower rates of violence when talking about countries with lower rates of violence than the United States, and therefore everyone here is a hypocrite about cultural differences between countries" is an extremely flawed argument. It seems like at this point, everyone in this thread is just exercising their debate skills against disingenuous, flawed arguments (or making said arguments).
|
Klackon, social cohesion in Sweden may be falling. However, I can't prove it.
I've spent the last while searching for statistics on volunteering in Sweden. I found a report by the European Volunteer Center from 2007 that translates the concept into English, loosely and with difficulty, from "ideell."
In my effort to understand Sweden's "welfare mix" of active citizenry as well as a welfare state, I highlighted these points:
1. Charity organizations of 1810-1870. They copied the British philosophy of private philanthropic initiatives to answer social distress
2. Charities became organized in 1903 with the establishment of the National Association for Social Work, or CSA. This changed state welfare policies, so many charity leaders came to occupy posts in the social welfare state-bureaucracy
3. Popular mass movements which mobilize the populace (including sports est. 1870-1880; the Social Democratic Party est. ~1880; Swedish Trade Union Confederation est. ~1890; etc.) These are crucial to understanding Sweden's tradition of actively volunteering citizenry; sports volunteering, for example, continues to be popular in Sweden, as well as in Norway
Sweden's government seems to understand the value of a volunteering tradition in its citizenry, even establishing and funding national volunteer centers that, since I think 1992, have been serving as contact points for volunteers and organizations. But maybe that tradition is fading?
One source, the national population survey (Befolkningsstudien) of 2005, pointed to changing sentiments. In this survey, 20% of people agreed with the statement, "If the government took its full responsibility there would be no need for volunteer work." Only 10% agreed in the 1990s. I assume the survey accurately represents Sweden's population at least 95% of the time.
So, it is certainly possible that this tradition among Swedes has declined over the years. According to my first source, Sweden has no strong independent church, yet still has a robust tradition of nonprofit work, thanks to the mass movements of 1870-1890. Maybe those popular mass movements and their generations have faded too far into history, and people are starting to believe answering social distress is solely the government's responsibility? I guess it's possible.
IF that is true, then, to me, that would be a sign of social cohesion weakening. That some no longer feel a sense of duty to help their fellow man, even in something like refereeing a children's baseball game, or volunteering for their school, or passing out water at a marathon. But, I haven't even proven a relationship between volunteerism and social cohesion to begin with lol (though I do believe it exists), much less any theories that go even further.
|
On August 09 2018 12:02 KlaCkoN wrote:
Since people were comparing countries with respect to police shootings and stuff: Swedish police have apparently been watching too many American cop shows, they are at 6 kills so far this year, which is only a factor of ~2.5 or so behind the rate in the USA once you adjust for population size.
The other day a 20 year old autistic guy (mental level ~3 years old) was playing with a plastic toygun outside when he was shot 4 times. Toy sellers really should be forced to add red warning signs "If a police officer sees you with this toy he may legally execute you".
Yesterday an autistic 16 year old, also playing with a plastic stormtrooper rifle was thankfully not shot, but they broke his arm in three places when trying to handcuff him.
Like personally I feel bad if I accidentally open a door in someones face, this guy breaks the arm of a mentally disabled 16 year old child and the only thing he has to say is "He was lucky I didnt shoot him". I wonder if they select for psychopaths these days -.-.
Things were so different 20 years ago. I remember during the antifa riots in Gothenburg 2001, some rioter was repeatedly trying to smash the head of an unconscious police officer with a big rock, other police first shot warning shots several times before shooting the guy once and calling an ambulance (he lived). There was still a huge uproar and a big trial (the police was found not guilty).
I wonder what changed. Violence against the population used to be considered a big deal.
Are the trends as bad in the rest of Europe or is Swedish police an outlier?
There are certainly a lot more guns in the streets now than there used to be, so that could explain why the police are more scared/trigger happy. It doesn't really explain why the public is more OK with average innocent joes being killed/hurt by law enforcement though. Maybe social cohesion is faltering, and people just care less about others in general. That would be sad.
on the first toygun incident, how clear was it that the gun was a toy? I ask because regulations regarding those vary considerably; and I've seen toy guns that are very realistic.
|
On August 09 2018 21:56 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2018 12:02 KlaCkoN wrote:
Since people were comparing countries with respect to police shootings and stuff: Swedish police have apparently been watching too many American cop shows, they are at 6 kills so far this year, which is only a factor of ~2.5 or so behind the rate in the USA once you adjust for population size.
The other day a 20 year old autistic guy (mental level ~3 years old) was playing with a plastic toygun outside when he was shot 4 times. Toy sellers really should be forced to add red warning signs "If a police officer sees you with this toy he may legally execute you".
Yesterday an autistic 16 year old, also playing with a plastic stormtrooper rifle was thankfully not shot, but they broke his arm in three places when trying to handcuff him.
Like personally I feel bad if I accidentally open a door in someones face, this guy breaks the arm of a mentally disabled 16 year old child and the only thing he has to say is "He was lucky I didnt shoot him". I wonder if they select for psychopaths these days -.-.
Things were so different 20 years ago. I remember during the antifa riots in Gothenburg 2001, some rioter was repeatedly trying to smash the head of an unconscious police officer with a big rock, other police first shot warning shots several times before shooting the guy once and calling an ambulance (he lived). There was still a huge uproar and a big trial (the police was found not guilty).
I wonder what changed. Violence against the population used to be considered a big deal.
Are the trends as bad in the rest of Europe or is Swedish police an outlier?
There are certainly a lot more guns in the streets now than there used to be, so that could explain why the police are more scared/trigger happy. It doesn't really explain why the public is more OK with average innocent joes being killed/hurt by law enforcement though. Maybe social cohesion is faltering, and people just care less about others in general. That would be sad. on the first toygun incident, how clear was it that the gun was a toy? I ask because regulations regarding those vary considerably; and I've seen toy guns that are very realistic.
A republican tried to get toy guns banned from schools in her area, to stop the kids from getting shot by cops, but the NRA were against that.
I'll try and find the link this afternoon I posted that earlier in the thread. Its interesting that the NRA would ban legislation to stop kids being shot by cops, just because they want people to get used to owning a gun from when they are 4-5 years old.
|
On August 09 2018 22:40 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2018 21:56 zlefin wrote:On August 09 2018 12:02 KlaCkoN wrote:
Since people were comparing countries with respect to police shootings and stuff: Swedish police have apparently been watching too many American cop shows, they are at 6 kills so far this year, which is only a factor of ~2.5 or so behind the rate in the USA once you adjust for population size.
The other day a 20 year old autistic guy (mental level ~3 years old) was playing with a plastic toygun outside when he was shot 4 times. Toy sellers really should be forced to add red warning signs "If a police officer sees you with this toy he may legally execute you".
Yesterday an autistic 16 year old, also playing with a plastic stormtrooper rifle was thankfully not shot, but they broke his arm in three places when trying to handcuff him.
Like personally I feel bad if I accidentally open a door in someones face, this guy breaks the arm of a mentally disabled 16 year old child and the only thing he has to say is "He was lucky I didnt shoot him". I wonder if they select for psychopaths these days -.-.
Things were so different 20 years ago. I remember during the antifa riots in Gothenburg 2001, some rioter was repeatedly trying to smash the head of an unconscious police officer with a big rock, other police first shot warning shots several times before shooting the guy once and calling an ambulance (he lived). There was still a huge uproar and a big trial (the police was found not guilty).
I wonder what changed. Violence against the population used to be considered a big deal.
Are the trends as bad in the rest of Europe or is Swedish police an outlier?
There are certainly a lot more guns in the streets now than there used to be, so that could explain why the police are more scared/trigger happy. It doesn't really explain why the public is more OK with average innocent joes being killed/hurt by law enforcement though. Maybe social cohesion is faltering, and people just care less about others in general. That would be sad. on the first toygun incident, how clear was it that the gun was a toy? I ask because regulations regarding those vary considerably; and I've seen toy guns that are very realistic. A republican tried to get toy guns banned from schools in her area, to stop the kids from getting shot by cops, but the NRA were against that. I'll try and find the link this afternoon I posted that earlier in the thread. Its interesting that the NRA would ban legislation to stop kids being shot by cops, just because they want people to get used to owning a gun from when they are 4-5 years old.
I find it more interesting that, when posed with a cops-shooting-kids problem, the solution is to take the toy guns away. Not to retrain cops who will shoot anyone with an object in their hands, including a 5 year-old kid, so that they stop shooting kids.
|
On August 09 2018 21:56 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2018 12:02 KlaCkoN wrote:
Since people were comparing countries with respect to police shootings and stuff: Swedish police have apparently been watching too many American cop shows, they are at 6 kills so far this year, which is only a factor of ~2.5 or so behind the rate in the USA once you adjust for population size.
The other day a 20 year old autistic guy (mental level ~3 years old) was playing with a plastic toygun outside when he was shot 4 times. Toy sellers really should be forced to add red warning signs "If a police officer sees you with this toy he may legally execute you".
Yesterday an autistic 16 year old, also playing with a plastic stormtrooper rifle was thankfully not shot, but they broke his arm in three places when trying to handcuff him.
Like personally I feel bad if I accidentally open a door in someones face, this guy breaks the arm of a mentally disabled 16 year old child and the only thing he has to say is "He was lucky I didnt shoot him". I wonder if they select for psychopaths these days -.-.
Things were so different 20 years ago. I remember during the antifa riots in Gothenburg 2001, some rioter was repeatedly trying to smash the head of an unconscious police officer with a big rock, other police first shot warning shots several times before shooting the guy once and calling an ambulance (he lived). There was still a huge uproar and a big trial (the police was found not guilty).
I wonder what changed. Violence against the population used to be considered a big deal.
Are the trends as bad in the rest of Europe or is Swedish police an outlier?
There are certainly a lot more guns in the streets now than there used to be, so that could explain why the police are more scared/trigger happy. It doesn't really explain why the public is more OK with average innocent joes being killed/hurt by law enforcement though. Maybe social cohesion is faltering, and people just care less about others in general. That would be sad. on the first toygun incident, how clear was it that the gun was a toy? I ask because regulations regarding those vary considerably; and I've seen toy guns that are very realistic.
When I read the news that day, it seems that the victim was a mentally disabled man who really liked the police and police movies. At the time of the shooting, he had run off and was in the city centre, at night, and was brandishing a toy gun. His mother was on the record saying that it was probable that he would think it was a game when ordered to surrender and submit and it's very reasonable to think that he instead of doing that would raise his toy as if in a game of cops and robbers. It's a terrible tragedy, but this specific case seems to have been just a confluence of events that led to a terrible outcome.
Edit:
The victim had Downs Syndrome. I also cannot find the source of the mom-quote now that I check again, but I am pretty sure I read it in some newsreports.
|
On August 09 2018 23:05 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2018 22:40 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 09 2018 21:56 zlefin wrote:On August 09 2018 12:02 KlaCkoN wrote:
Since people were comparing countries with respect to police shootings and stuff: Swedish police have apparently been watching too many American cop shows, they are at 6 kills so far this year, which is only a factor of ~2.5 or so behind the rate in the USA once you adjust for population size.
The other day a 20 year old autistic guy (mental level ~3 years old) was playing with a plastic toygun outside when he was shot 4 times. Toy sellers really should be forced to add red warning signs "If a police officer sees you with this toy he may legally execute you".
Yesterday an autistic 16 year old, also playing with a plastic stormtrooper rifle was thankfully not shot, but they broke his arm in three places when trying to handcuff him.
Like personally I feel bad if I accidentally open a door in someones face, this guy breaks the arm of a mentally disabled 16 year old child and the only thing he has to say is "He was lucky I didnt shoot him". I wonder if they select for psychopaths these days -.-.
Things were so different 20 years ago. I remember during the antifa riots in Gothenburg 2001, some rioter was repeatedly trying to smash the head of an unconscious police officer with a big rock, other police first shot warning shots several times before shooting the guy once and calling an ambulance (he lived). There was still a huge uproar and a big trial (the police was found not guilty).
I wonder what changed. Violence against the population used to be considered a big deal.
Are the trends as bad in the rest of Europe or is Swedish police an outlier?
There are certainly a lot more guns in the streets now than there used to be, so that could explain why the police are more scared/trigger happy. It doesn't really explain why the public is more OK with average innocent joes being killed/hurt by law enforcement though. Maybe social cohesion is faltering, and people just care less about others in general. That would be sad. on the first toygun incident, how clear was it that the gun was a toy? I ask because regulations regarding those vary considerably; and I've seen toy guns that are very realistic. A republican tried to get toy guns banned from schools in her area, to stop the kids from getting shot by cops, but the NRA were against that. I'll try and find the link this afternoon I posted that earlier in the thread. Its interesting that the NRA would ban legislation to stop kids being shot by cops, just because they want people to get used to owning a gun from when they are 4-5 years old. I find it more interesting that, when posed with a cops-shooting-kids problem, the solution is to take the toy guns away. Not to retrain cops who will shoot anyone with an object in their hands, including a 5 year-old kid, so that they stop shooting kids.
If you're a cop and you think a kid in school might have a gun, what would you do?
The difficulty is that kids in the US have access to guns, so the cop can't be sure its a toy and has to act decisively in one way or another.
Much better to not have realistic looking toy guns in school surely.
|
On August 09 2018 23:15 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2018 23:05 NewSunshine wrote:On August 09 2018 22:40 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 09 2018 21:56 zlefin wrote:On August 09 2018 12:02 KlaCkoN wrote:
Since people were comparing countries with respect to police shootings and stuff: Swedish police have apparently been watching too many American cop shows, they are at 6 kills so far this year, which is only a factor of ~2.5 or so behind the rate in the USA once you adjust for population size.
The other day a 20 year old autistic guy (mental level ~3 years old) was playing with a plastic toygun outside when he was shot 4 times. Toy sellers really should be forced to add red warning signs "If a police officer sees you with this toy he may legally execute you".
Yesterday an autistic 16 year old, also playing with a plastic stormtrooper rifle was thankfully not shot, but they broke his arm in three places when trying to handcuff him.
Like personally I feel bad if I accidentally open a door in someones face, this guy breaks the arm of a mentally disabled 16 year old child and the only thing he has to say is "He was lucky I didnt shoot him". I wonder if they select for psychopaths these days -.-.
Things were so different 20 years ago. I remember during the antifa riots in Gothenburg 2001, some rioter was repeatedly trying to smash the head of an unconscious police officer with a big rock, other police first shot warning shots several times before shooting the guy once and calling an ambulance (he lived). There was still a huge uproar and a big trial (the police was found not guilty).
I wonder what changed. Violence against the population used to be considered a big deal.
Are the trends as bad in the rest of Europe or is Swedish police an outlier?
There are certainly a lot more guns in the streets now than there used to be, so that could explain why the police are more scared/trigger happy. It doesn't really explain why the public is more OK with average innocent joes being killed/hurt by law enforcement though. Maybe social cohesion is faltering, and people just care less about others in general. That would be sad. on the first toygun incident, how clear was it that the gun was a toy? I ask because regulations regarding those vary considerably; and I've seen toy guns that are very realistic. A republican tried to get toy guns banned from schools in her area, to stop the kids from getting shot by cops, but the NRA were against that. I'll try and find the link this afternoon I posted that earlier in the thread. Its interesting that the NRA would ban legislation to stop kids being shot by cops, just because they want people to get used to owning a gun from when they are 4-5 years old. I find it more interesting that, when posed with a cops-shooting-kids problem, the solution is to take the toy guns away. Not to retrain cops who will shoot anyone with an object in their hands, including a 5 year-old kid, so that they stop shooting kids. If you're a cop and you think a kid in school might have a gun, what would you do? The difficulty is that kids in the US have access to guns, so the cop can't be sure its a toy and has to act decisively in one way or another. Much better to not have realistic looking toy guns in school surely.
or you know...limit the access to guns for children?!
|
On August 11 2018 02:06 TRAP[yoo] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2018 23:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 09 2018 23:05 NewSunshine wrote:On August 09 2018 22:40 Jockmcplop wrote:On August 09 2018 21:56 zlefin wrote:On August 09 2018 12:02 KlaCkoN wrote:
Since people were comparing countries with respect to police shootings and stuff: Swedish police have apparently been watching too many American cop shows, they are at 6 kills so far this year, which is only a factor of ~2.5 or so behind the rate in the USA once you adjust for population size.
The other day a 20 year old autistic guy (mental level ~3 years old) was playing with a plastic toygun outside when he was shot 4 times. Toy sellers really should be forced to add red warning signs "If a police officer sees you with this toy he may legally execute you".
Yesterday an autistic 16 year old, also playing with a plastic stormtrooper rifle was thankfully not shot, but they broke his arm in three places when trying to handcuff him.
Like personally I feel bad if I accidentally open a door in someones face, this guy breaks the arm of a mentally disabled 16 year old child and the only thing he has to say is "He was lucky I didnt shoot him". I wonder if they select for psychopaths these days -.-.
Things were so different 20 years ago. I remember during the antifa riots in Gothenburg 2001, some rioter was repeatedly trying to smash the head of an unconscious police officer with a big rock, other police first shot warning shots several times before shooting the guy once and calling an ambulance (he lived). There was still a huge uproar and a big trial (the police was found not guilty).
I wonder what changed. Violence against the population used to be considered a big deal.
Are the trends as bad in the rest of Europe or is Swedish police an outlier?
There are certainly a lot more guns in the streets now than there used to be, so that could explain why the police are more scared/trigger happy. It doesn't really explain why the public is more OK with average innocent joes being killed/hurt by law enforcement though. Maybe social cohesion is faltering, and people just care less about others in general. That would be sad. on the first toygun incident, how clear was it that the gun was a toy? I ask because regulations regarding those vary considerably; and I've seen toy guns that are very realistic. A republican tried to get toy guns banned from schools in her area, to stop the kids from getting shot by cops, but the NRA were against that. I'll try and find the link this afternoon I posted that earlier in the thread. Its interesting that the NRA would ban legislation to stop kids being shot by cops, just because they want people to get used to owning a gun from when they are 4-5 years old. I find it more interesting that, when posed with a cops-shooting-kids problem, the solution is to take the toy guns away. Not to retrain cops who will shoot anyone with an object in their hands, including a 5 year-old kid, so that they stop shooting kids. If you're a cop and you think a kid in school might have a gun, what would you do? The difficulty is that kids in the US have access to guns, so the cop can't be sure its a toy and has to act decisively in one way or another. Much better to not have realistic looking toy guns in school surely. or you know...limit the access to guns for children?!
But how will todlers defend themselves from the school shooters without guns? Toddlers should have the right to defend themselves. The only thing stopping a bad toddler with a gun is a good toddler with a gun.
User was warned for this post.
|
Four dead and 10 injured in mass shooting in Florida gaming tournament. Don’t have more info than this just yet, i was just notified.
Different article im linking than quoting mobile app doesn’t let me copy original source from Daily Mail apparently.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting/mass-shooting-reported-in-jacksonville-florida-sheriffs-office-idUSKCN1LB0M7
A mass shooting has been reported at Florida's Jacksonville Landing on Sunday afternoon.
Four people are dead and 10 have been injured, News4Jax reports.
The shooting took place during the Madden online gaming tournament.
'Mass shooting at the Jacksonville Landing. Stay far away from the area. The area is not safe at this time. STAY AWAY #TheLandingMassShooting,' the Jax Sheriff's Office tweeted
|
The start of the shooting was caught on stream. Haunting and sad.
|
On August 09 2018 06:45 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2018 17:10 superstartran wrote:On August 08 2018 16:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
So what is it about the geographical, cultural, social, economic differences, or historical development of the US as a whole that has caused so much gun violence?
I would wager that the massive proliferation of guns plays at least some small part. I would wager that your Northern Ireland police force carries guns for a reason. Probably because you have extremely bold criminals that really don't follow the law up there and are willing to open fire on officers of the law. Now, take that same situation, and apply it to various parts of the U.S., particularly rural areas. Now, imagine that when you make a call, sometimes you have to wait at bare minimum 5 minutes for an officer to show up, often times it's 10 minutes plus, sometimes longer (as high as thirty minutes or so). Do remember, that the criminals in the U.S. are very different from ones in the U.K. on average, they are much more bold, desperate, and willing to do whatever it takes, whether they are armed or not (and on average, they tend to be armed). Now if you've thought of that, now you know why some people value firearms for self-defense. It's not really that preposterous of an idea when you think of it that way. You have a similar situation in Northern Ireland where all officers are armed for a reason. As a civilian in the United States, you sometimes depending on geographic location and circumstance, cannot wait out for an officer for 30 minutes when a desperate crack head who is on his 3rd strike breaks into your home and you see his face (i.e. he's probably fucked if you identify him). Versus a similar situation in the U.K., a burglar breaks into your home, he's probably going to not engage you because he isn't going to be so bold to attack you due to various different circumstances (because chances are they get away with it or have a much milder sentence due to how your prosecution system works). Wow really? How does someone be so oblivious? First it was Swiss gun laws, then knife crime, now it is NI. Also criminals in USA are apparently just more innately bold and desperate. The hell? Are you just trolling at this point, because if you are good job.
Also criminals in USA are apparently just more innately bold and desperate. The hell?
But that's true,and pretty obvious.
American criminals are more dangerous then English criminals on average,much higher murder rate.
if only because they have easier acces to guns but it is also partially cultural and economical.
|
Hmmm, how do I push the view that we should talk about mass shootings less in a way that isn't, in itself, contributing to the problem of talking about mass shootings?
|
On August 27 2018 03:58 zlefin wrote:
Hmmm, how do I push the view that we should talk about mass shootings less in a way that isn't, in itself, contributing to the problem of talking about mass shootings?
By not naming or nicknaming the shooter and making them figures. The sheer amount of that understand what the "unibomber" look is honestly disturbing, for example. Different thing, but similar science.
|
That youtube clip was stomach churning
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
