EPTI think we tend to forget that developed country basically means: has money and infrastructure. It does not necessarily mean: has basic respect for fundamental human rights. Just as being rich doesn't necessarily make you a good person, being a rich nation doesn't necessarily make you a reasonable and just nation. There are plenty of countries other than the US that are also highly economically developed but still barbaric towards their citizens. Saudi Arabia, for example, is quite wealthy and yet they're still chopping guys' hands off for crimes like robbery. China is quickly becoming a developed country as well, and like America, it (the state and non-state actors supported by the state) also routinely violates the basic rights of its citizens. Now of course the two countries differ greatly in how they go about giving segments/members of their population a shit time, but the general disdain or dismissal of humanity is essentially the same.
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reincremate
China2216 Posts
I think we tend to forget that developed country basically means: has money and infrastructure. It does not necessarily mean: has basic respect for fundamental human rights. Just as being rich doesn't necessarily make you a good person, being a rich nation doesn't necessarily make you a reasonable and just nation. There are plenty of countries other than the US that are also highly economically developed but still barbaric towards their citizens. Saudi Arabia, for example, is quite wealthy and yet they're still chopping guys' hands off for crimes like robbery. China is quickly becoming a developed country as well, and like America, it (the state and non-state actors supported by the state) also routinely violates the basic rights of its citizens. Now of course the two countries differ greatly in how they go about giving segments/members of their population a shit time, but the general disdain or dismissal of humanity is essentially the same. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8764 Posts
On August 08 2018 12:39 reincremate wrote: People in this thread keep trying to make a comparative analysis of the US and other developed countries like Germany and Australia, and other posters have stated the obvious by saying there are sociocultural differences between the US and other developed countries, but there hasn't been too much actual discussion about these differences.. I think we tend to forget that developed country basically means: has money and infrastructure. It does not necessarily mean: has basic respect for fundamental human rights. Just as being rich doesn't necessarily make you a good person, being a rich nation doesn't necessarily make you a reasonable and just nation. There are plenty of countries other than the US that are also highly economically developed but still barbaric towards their citizens. Saudi Arabia, for example, is quite wealthy and yet they're still chopping guys' hands off for crimes like robbery. China is quickly becoming a developed country as well, and like America, it (the state and non-state actors supported by the state) also routinely violates the basic rights of its citizens. Now of course the two countries differ greatly in how they go about giving segments/members of their population a shit time, but the general disdain or dismissal of humanity is the pretty much same. this is basically what were calling sst out on. the US has the means and the capability to make changes to their country but are actively choosing not to. gun advocates are claiming that they are fighting for their rights but the reality is the governments inaction on these events is an infringement on their citizens right to not be shot for some completely stupid reason. most gun deaths are preventable and yet because these deaths are apparently "statistically insignificant", why bother inconveniencing themselves? if they at least admitted to themselves and to us that they value their right to bear arms higher than others' rights to life then we could come to a conclusion that we agree to disagree and the discussion would probably settle down. instead, they keep dodging this obvious fact with semantics and wont admit it when being called out on. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 08 2018 15:39 evilfatsh1t wrote: this is basically what were calling sst out on. the US has the means and the capability to make changes to their country but are actively choosing not to. gun advocates are claiming that they are fighting for their rights but the reality is the governments inaction on these events is an infringement on their citizens right to not be shot for some completely stupid reason. most gun deaths are preventable and yet because these deaths are apparently "statistically insignificant", why bother inconveniencing themselves? if they at least admitted to themselves and to us that they value their right to bear arms higher than others' rights to life then we could come to a conclusion that we agree to disagree and the discussion would probably settle down. instead, they keep dodging this obvious fact with semantics and wont admit it when being called out on. Dodging the obvious facts? You refuse to admit even something simple like mass shootings and police shootings are not actually regular occurrences in the United States. Remember, not once have I ever stated there isn't a problem, rather the problem isn't quite as large as most of the media and European/Australian people who have zero clue about American society as a whole. Most of you believe as though police officers are out to shoot you, that at any point you walk out you could encounter a mass shooter who is out to kill you. That's simply not true at all. Let me give you a good example of what you guys are doing. You claim that because the U.S. has more gun violence then the rest of the Western World that we should mimic and copy the rest of the Western World also. Well, I'll reply with the European countries have had far more large scale terrorist attacks than Japan, so why aren't they copying Japan? Because that's the same logic you're using. No accounting for geographical, cultural, social, economic differences, or historical development of the country as a whole. Since none of those things matter, I'm sure you'll agree that Japan is a pinnacle civilization right? That's the shit stain level logic you're using when you cry "WELL THE REST OF THE WESTERN WORLD DOES THIS WHY DON'T YOU." Frankly, I'm a little tired of it, so from now on I'm just going to refer to Japan from now on every single time you do it. On August 08 2018 12:39 reincremate wrote: People in this thread keep trying to make a comparative analysis of the US and other developed countries like Germany and Australia, and other posters have stated the obvious by saying there are sociocultural differences between the US and other developed countries, but there hasn't been too much actual discussion about these differences.. I think we tend to forget that developed country basically means: has money and infrastructure. It does not necessarily mean: has basic respect for fundamental human rights. Just as being rich doesn't necessarily make you a good person, being a rich nation doesn't necessarily make you a reasonable and just nation. There are plenty of countries other than the US that are also highly economically developed but still barbaric towards their citizens. Saudi Arabia, for example, is quite wealthy and yet they're still chopping guys' hands off for crimes like robbery. China is quickly becoming a developed country as well, and like America, it (the state and non-state actors supported by the state) also routinely violates the basic rights of its citizens. Now of course the two countries differ greatly in how they go about giving segments/members of their population a shit time, but the general disdain or dismissal of humanity is essentially the same. Those factors were actually talked about in previous pages. For example, the U.S. has vastly more cultures within its own society than most of the Western World (the exception being Canada, which of course..... has lots of guns...... not quite as much as the U.S. but quite a few). Most societies that are multi cultural/diverse tend to be a little more volatile than homogeneous societies, especially when you consider the fact that some of those groups suppressed other groups for literally hundreds of years (and in some ways continue to do so). So of course, there's automatically going to be more conflict. Individual rights are also highly valued in the U.S. unlike many socialized Western countries; good example of this is the fact that double jeopardy to this day still exists in the U.S., meanwhile the U.K. abolished it in 2005 simply due to one case. Taking away someone's rights is considered a pretty huge ordeal; luckily for me I live in a society that values said rights rather than one where the greater good of society is majority of the time placed above the minority/individual. Culturally people also really never talk about how firearms have served as a defense tool for many people that lived in rural areas for hundreds of years, and still does. Due to how geographically large the United States is, it is worth noting that if you live a rural area, sometimes police officers may take a few minutes to respond to your call. In some cities depending on the time of day, it can take quite sometime also. And one thing people fail to mention is that criminal culture in the U.S. is vastly different from that in the rest of the Western countries; criminals on average tend to be much more bold than the rest of the Western countries for a plethora of reasons. Some of it is economics, some of it is cultural, some of it is the feeling of repression, etc. All of these things always get ignored though, and the other side just yells "AUSTRALIA AND U.K. LOOK" | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9716 Posts
I would wager that the massive proliferation of guns plays at least some small part. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 08 2018 16:28 Jockmcplop wrote: So what is it about the geographical, cultural, social, economic differences, or historical development of the US as a whole that has caused so much gun violence? I would wager that the massive proliferation of guns plays at least some small part. I would wager that your Northern Ireland police force carries guns for a reason. Probably because you have extremely bold criminals that really don't follow the law up there and are willing to open fire on officers of the law. Now, take that same situation, and apply it to various parts of the U.S., particularly rural areas. Now, imagine that when you make a call, sometimes you have to wait at bare minimum 5 minutes for an officer to show up, often times it's 10 minutes plus, sometimes longer (as high as thirty minutes or so). Do remember, that the criminals in the U.S. are very different from ones in the U.K. on average, they are much more bold, desperate, and willing to do whatever it takes, whether they are armed or not (and on average, they tend to be armed). Now if you've thought of that, now you know why some people value firearms for self-defense. It's not really that preposterous of an idea when you think of it that way. You have a similar situation in Northern Ireland where all officers are armed for a reason. As a civilian in the United States, you sometimes depending on geographic location and circumstance, cannot wait out for an officer for 30 minutes when a desperate crack head who is on his 3rd strike breaks into your home and you see his face (i.e. he's probably fucked if you identify him). Versus a similar situation in the U.K., a burglar breaks into your home, he's probably going to not engage you because he isn't going to be so bold to attack you due to various different circumstances (because chances are they get away with it or have a much milder sentence due to how your prosecution system works). | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9716 Posts
On August 08 2018 17:10 superstartran wrote: I would wager that your Northern Ireland police force carries guns for a reason. Probably because you have extremely bold criminals that really don't follow the law up there and are willing to open fire on officers of the law. Now, take that same situation, and apply it to various parts of the U.S., particularly rural areas. Now, imagine that when you make a call, sometimes you have to wait at bare minimum 5 minutes for an officer to show up, often times it's 10 minutes plus, sometimes longer (as high as thirty minutes or so). Do remember, that the criminals in the U.S. are very different from ones in the U.K. on average, they are much more bold, desperate, and willing to do whatever it takes, whether they are armed or not (and on average, they tend to be armed). Now if you've thought of that, now you know why some people value firearms for self-defense. It's not really that preposterous of an idea when you think of it that way. You have a similar situation in Northern Ireland where all officers are armed for a reason. As a civilian in the United States, you sometimes depending on geographic location and circumstance, cannot wait out for an officer for 30 minutes when a desperate crack head who is on his 3rd strike breaks into your home and you see his face (i.e. he's probably fucked if you identify him). Versus a similar situation in the U.K., a burglar breaks into your home, he's probably going to not engage you because he isn't going to be so bold to attack you due to various different circumstances (because chances are they get away with it or have a much milder sentence due to how your prosecution system works). Well the criminals in England are much less likely to be armed, so that's a thing. I don't know much about the situation with guns in Northern Ireland to be honest. Your point about a different type of criminal works better for the difference between the US and England than it does for Ireland I think. Of course, its really hard to separate criminal culture and how that plays out from gun culture. The criminals in the US are different and react differently, and I would say that some of that is to do with criminal culture, but they also react differently knowing that their victims might be armed and that the police are armed and ready to shoot. This in of itself adds a layer of desperation to committing a crime. Your point about rural police waiting times is actually irrelevant when it comes to UK police forces, because as of the last 5 years police numbers are so heavily depleted that getting police to show up to a burglary is pretty much a coin flip. Most times they will just investigate after the fact unless there's evidence that someone's life is danger. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8764 Posts
On August 08 2018 16:22 superstartran wrote: Dodging the obvious facts? You refuse to admit even something simple like mass shootings and police shootings are not actually regular occurrences in the United States. Remember, not once have I ever stated there isn't a problem, rather the problem isn't quite as large as most of the media and European/Australian people who have zero clue about American society as a whole. Most of you believe as though police officers are out to shoot you, that at any point you walk out you could encounter a mass shooter who is out to kill you. That's simply not true at all. Let me give you a good example of what you guys are doing. You claim that because the U.S. has more gun violence then the rest of the Western World that we should mimic and copy the rest of the Western World also. Well, I'll reply with the European countries have had far more large scale terrorist attacks than Japan, so why aren't they copying Japan? Because that's the same logic you're using. No accounting for geographical, cultural, social, economic differences, or historical development of the country as a whole. Since none of those things matter, I'm sure you'll agree that Japan is a pinnacle civilization right? That's the shit stain level logic you're using when you cry "WELL THE REST OF THE WESTERN WORLD DOES THIS WHY DON'T YOU." Frankly, I'm a little tired of it, so from now on I'm just going to refer to Japan from now on every single time you do it. Those factors were actually talked about in previous pages. For example, the U.S. has vastly more cultures within its own society than most of the Western World (the exception being Canada, which of course..... has lots of guns...... not quite as much as the U.S. but quite a few). Most societies that are multi cultural/diverse tend to be a little more volatile than homogeneous societies, especially when you consider the fact that some of those groups suppressed other groups for literally hundreds of years (and in some ways continue to do so). So of course, there's automatically going to be more conflict. Individual rights are also highly valued in the U.S. unlike many socialized Western countries; good example of this is the fact that double jeopardy to this day still exists in the U.S., meanwhile the U.K. abolished it in 2005 simply due to one case. Taking away someone's rights is considered a pretty huge ordeal; luckily for me I live in a society that values said rights rather than one where the greater good of society is majority of the time placed above the minority/individual. Culturally people also really never talk about how firearms have served as a defense tool for many people that lived in rural areas for hundreds of years, and still does. Due to how geographically large the United States is, it is worth noting that if you live a rural area, sometimes police officers may take a few minutes to respond to your call. In some cities depending on the time of day, it can take quite sometime also. And one thing people fail to mention is that criminal culture in the U.S. is vastly different from that in the rest of the Western countries; criminals on average tend to be much more bold than the rest of the Western countries for a plethora of reasons. Some of it is economics, some of it is cultural, some of it is the feeling of repression, etc. All of these things always get ignored though, and the other side just yells "AUSTRALIA AND U.K. LOOK" for the record my argument isnt even that gun related deaths are a regular occurence and therefore governments must take action. im personally of the stance that the frequency is completely irrelevant. most gun related injuries and deaths are preventable, and therefore 1000 deaths would be 1000 deaths too many. the right to bear arms in the US outside of some very specific scenarios, are quite simply a privilege rather than something that exists out of necessity. the fact that you consider gun related injuries and deaths statistically insignificant (regardless of whether this point is true or false) shows that you consider those lives to be mere collateral damage to your right to own firearms. and unless that number significantly increases, you consider it not worth the effort to make significant changes to your laws. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10809 Posts
Individual rights are also highly valued in the U.S. unlike many socialized Western countries; good example of this is the fact that double jeopardy to this day still exists in the U.S., meanwhile the U.K. abolished it in 2005 simply due to one case. Taking away someone's rights is considered a pretty huge ordeal; luckily for me I live in a society that values said rights rather than one where the greater good of society is majority of the time placed above the minority/individual. This has to be sarcasm? Amount of people in Jail per capita? 3 Strikes rule? The friggin Death Penalty? Oh how you value the rights/freedom of your people... You sacrifice more individuals on the Altar of your ideas than any other western country - by far. Btw: Double Jeopardy is retarded and how anyone could defend it is beyond me. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8764 Posts
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
The country where prosecutors operate in an adversarial system where they get full control of the evidence released to the defense and at the same time get a huge incentive to get as many guilty pleas as possible through a very dubious plea bargain system so they appear 'tough on crime' and get re-elected values individual rights more than other socialized Western countries? The country which has no real national healthcare system, and has more than 30 million people without any healthcare insurance at all for who any major health problem leads to financial ruin and homelessness values individual rights more than other socialized Western countries? Okay then. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9137 Posts
On August 08 2018 17:40 Velr wrote: This has to be sarcasm? Amount of people in Jail per capita? 3 Strikes rule? The friggin Death Penalty? Oh how you value the rights/freedom of your people... You sacrifice more individuals on the Altar of your ideas than any other western country - by far. Btw: Double Jeopardy is retarded and how anyone could defend it is beyond me. In the very next post after giving the abolishment of double jeopardy as a 'good example' of countries not respecting individual rights as much as the US, he argues that criminals in the US are more desperate than in the UK because of three strike rules and heftier sentences. The logic he puts forth in this thread has the consistency of explosive diarrhea. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4955 Posts
On August 08 2018 11:35 reincremate wrote: The US is culturally different from other developed countries. This thread is a great example of smug western Europeans obnoxiously trying to push their post-enlightenment values of respecting human life and basic human decency onto a country that is culturally against those things. Just because you've (supposedly) moved beyond barbarism, doesn't mean you have to sit on your high horse and admonish people on another continent for their cultural barbarism. I hope we can all learn to respect cultural differences and accept America for the country that it is. If the US is so culturally different, then why does a significant proportion of American citizens plead for stricter gun regulation and is it a debate at all? There exist strong (dichotomous) culturally different ways which seem to clash with each other. Even though the US has been "unified", its difference in state to state policy, cultural tendencies being state dependent and whatever else you could say, feels like another civil war waiting to happen. We in Belgium have difficulty managing 11 million people divided in 2 diverse regions (it's 3-4 depending on how inclusive you want to be). I can't imagine how you manage to do this for 300 million people in 50 regions without being torn apart from the inside out. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On August 08 2018 17:10 superstartran wrote: I would wager that your Northern Ireland police force carries guns for a reason. Probably because you have extremely bold criminals that really don't follow the law up there and are willing to open fire on officers of the law. yes, northern ireland is a special security situation where dissident terror groups are still actively trying (and succeeding) to kill police/prison officers. it is also the only region of the UK where handguns are not banned for target shooting, and also the only region where you can be licensed to carry a handgun for personal protection. | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1947 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 08 2018 19:35 Uldridge wrote: If the US is so culturally different, then why does a significant proportion of American citizens plead for stricter gun regulation and is it a debate at all? There exist strong (dichotomous) culturally different ways which seem to clash with each other. Even though the US has been "unified", its difference in state to state policy, cultural tendencies being state dependent and whatever else you could say, feels like another civil war waiting to happen. We in Belgium have difficulty managing 11 million people divided in 2 diverse regions (it's 3-4 depending on how inclusive you want to be). I can't imagine how you manage to do this for 300 million people in 50 regions without being torn apart from the inside out. There is no civil war waiting to happen. What? This is the kind of rhetoric that pisses people off. You have no factual basis for saying this. On August 08 2018 18:50 Dan HH wrote: In the very next post after giving the abolishment of double jeopardy as a 'good example' of countries not respecting individual rights as much as the US, he argues that criminals in the US are more desperate than in the UK because of three strike rules and heftier sentences. The logic he puts forth in this thread has the consistency of explosive diarrhea. How many people in Belgium/U.K/Australia/etc. react like this when the police order you to stand down after you just committed a crime? + Show Spoiler + I'm pretty sure that number is close to zero. It isn't just how the prosecution works that causes criminals to become desperate, it's also a whole slew of other factors. But good job straw manning like you typically do. Criminals in the U.S. ARE different. Different situations dictate different responses. On August 08 2018 17:40 Velr wrote: This has to be sarcasm? Amount of people in Jail per capita? 3 Strikes rule? The friggin Death Penalty? Oh how you value the rights/freedom of your people... You sacrifice more individuals on the Altar of your ideas than any other western country - by far. Btw: Double Jeopardy is retarded and how anyone could defend it is beyond me. Japan has less terrorists then you guys do. Should probably go copy them amirite? Mob rule is a pretty terrible idea. The U.S. isn't perfect, but the system is designed to protect minority groups and their interests. The whole idea that the majority should rule society isn't really all that grand an idea, and didn't work out quite so well in alot of different scenarios historically. On August 08 2018 18:02 evilfatsh1t wrote: well at least he has finally accepted the fact that further gun control would be in the interests of the greater good for the majority of society, but he prefers his individual rights over that. we can come to the conclusion now that all his arguments are indeed not being made with the interests of americas citizens at heart, but his own. Minority groups actually have the ability to come together and successfully get change done in America. See the Civil Rights Movements of the 60s, the NRA, the women's suffrage movement, along with many other smaller political groups that fought for the right to do something. Part of the reason why those things happen is because America is setup in a way where minority groups don't just get instantly curb stomped by the majority's opinion. I'm pretty glad to live in a country like that. Is it a perfect system? No. But majority's will doesn't always trump the minority groups, and that's a good thing. The vast majority of American citizens also support the 2nd Amendment, so again, you are statistically wrong. Not once have I said I am ever against gun control, so you can stop putting words into my mouth. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10809 Posts
As for a civil war being totally impossible... Trumpism vs trump derangement syndrome? Nutjobs occupying stuff against a "tyrannical" goverment? Open statements of reps/dems that the others are the enemy? Elites vs deplorables? Conspiracy theories on about every topic? Trump claiming that his supporters should not accept it if he loses and many being on board with it? Congress being totally incapable of getting shit done? Loads of white people (and black people) feeling "opressed"? Republicans bending every rule they can for every gain they can get (obamas supreme court pick)? Starting tradewars for "reasons"? People needing their Guns to fight off the "tyrannical" goverment? ... I dearly hope it won't happen but polarisation is on the rise, income inequality is on the rise, trust in the goverment and the media has disintegrated. We'll see once the economy tanks the next time... | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On August 09 2018 00:48 Velr wrote: Wtf for do you bring up Japan and WTF has it to do with my post? Why do you even bring up terrorism? As for a civil war being totally impossible... Trumpism vs trump derangement syndrome? Nutjobs occupying stuff against a "tyrannical" goverment? Open statements of reps/dems that the others are the enemy? Elites vs deplorables? Conspiracy theories on about every topic? Trump claiming that his supporters should not accept it if he loses and many being on board with it? Congress being totally incapable of getting shit done? Loads of white people (and black people) feeling "opressed"? Republicans bending every rule they can for every gain they can get (obamas supreme court pick)? Starting tradewars for "reasons"? People needing their Guns to fight off the "tyrannical" goverment? ... I dearly hope it won't happen but polarisation is on the rise, income inequality is on the rise, trust in the goverment and the media has disintegrated. We'll see once the economy tanks the next time... Because everything you're talking about right now has nothing to do with this thread, which is specifically about firearms. So I responded in kind with a shit stain level response to try and wake you up, but obviously you didn't get the memo. So again let me respond with Japan has less terrorist attacks than all the other EU nations, as such the EU nations should follow suit and follow the same policies that Japan has laid out to prevent terrorist attacks. I'm sure that those same policies Japan follow will prevent future terrorist attacks! After all, it worked in their country. Not to mention that's the exact logic you guys are using in order to try and justify why America should follow the U.K. and Australia's examples. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10809 Posts
What does this have to do with anything? I saw no one here ever bringing it up and if the US is as culturally diffrent as you say, Japan is totally alien. My OT stuff was a direct response to you, don't shift the blame for derailing pls. Btw: Japan had this sect that did horrible shit? | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8764 Posts
you literally wrote the phrase "greater good of society" as an obvious reference to relinquishing rights to bear arms and you said you were glad that your country however still protects those rights(to bear arms) even if they are the minority. there is no possible other explanation for why you would have written that paragraph like so, and it is an admission of what we were all expecting. the point i made in my post was that you do not make arguments with the wellbeing of the general american population at heart. you are simply speaking as one american citizen that quite frankly does not want to see much change (despite your claims to be apparently pro gun control). way to completely miss/dodge the point, as usual. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 08 2018 06:19 Plansix wrote: The one thing I have learned from this thread is that gun violence in the US cannot be compared to anything in human existence. It is unique and no solution in existence can be applied to address any issues without endless systematic harm to the second amendment. Therefore, we must accept the status quo as no solution has been or can be found. I will go so far as to say that nations cannot be compared in any way, based on the arguments put forth in this thread. And by extension, maybe even states in the US cannot compare their laws because they are to different in size and culture. /s People should see through SST's argument for what it is, deflection. He doesn't want anyone talking about gun laws or how to improve them. He does this by pinning arguments you with argument you didn't make and then forcing you to argue against points. You can agree with him on most subjects and he will still claim you are trying to take away everyone's guns. | ||
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