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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-04 01:22:47
October 04 2015 01:20 GMT
#11321
On October 04 2015 10:18 Jormundr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2015 10:09 acker wrote:
On October 04 2015 09:58 Impervious wrote:
I like this, but instead of a ridiculous licensing cost, I'd rather see them add some kind of ridiculous bond, like 50 grand when you go for the license. To be forfeited 100% upon the smallest infraction. But should you sell the weapon, you can get the money back. That way it only really costs the irresponsible gun owners.

Also, I kinda chuckled at the new name of this thread (it might have changed ages ago and I never noticed though), and then felt bad about it because of how much this shit happens

Mississippi and other states used to have similar requirements, to prevent poor black people from buying guns against the KKK. I'm sorry to see that similar dreams aren't dead yet in the United States.

Defensive gun use in the USA outnumbers gun homicides by a factor of five to ten to eighty to two hundred; it's a spotty area of study. Murder is, of course, more newsworthy.

Actually there are 10 defensive gun scenarios in the US per year max.


That's literally less than the number of newsworthy DGU incidents posted to Reddit in the span of a week, and dozens of times less than justified homicide by the police. Donohue estimates 50k per year, and he's a gun control advocate with the minimum estimate.
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
October 04 2015 01:24 GMT
#11322
On October 04 2015 10:20 acker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2015 10:18 Jormundr wrote:
On October 04 2015 10:09 acker wrote:
On October 04 2015 09:58 Impervious wrote:
I like this, but instead of a ridiculous licensing cost, I'd rather see them add some kind of ridiculous bond, like 50 grand when you go for the license. To be forfeited 100% upon the smallest infraction. But should you sell the weapon, you can get the money back. That way it only really costs the irresponsible gun owners.

Also, I kinda chuckled at the new name of this thread (it might have changed ages ago and I never noticed though), and then felt bad about it because of how much this shit happens

Mississippi and other states used to have similar requirements, to prevent poor black people from buying guns against the KKK. I'm sorry to see that similar dreams aren't dead yet in the United States.

Defensive gun use in the USA outnumbers gun homicides by a factor of five to ten to eighty to two hundred; it's a spotty area of study. Murder is, of course, more newsworthy.

Actually there are 10 defensive gun scenarios in the US per year max.


That's literally less than the number of newsworthy DGU incidents posted to Reddit in the span of a week, and dozens of times less than justified homicide by the police.

Oh I'm sorry I thought we were pulling numbers out of our ass/reddit/organizations that justify EVERY homocide.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46585 Posts
October 04 2015 01:25 GMT
#11323
On October 04 2015 10:09 acker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2015 09:58 Impervious wrote:
I like this, but instead of a ridiculous licensing cost, I'd rather see them add some kind of ridiculous bond, like 50 grand when you go for the license. To be forfeited 100% upon the smallest infraction. But should you sell the weapon, you can get the money back. That way it only really costs the irresponsible gun owners.

Also, I kinda chuckled at the new name of this thread (it might have changed ages ago and I never noticed though), and then felt bad about it because of how much this shit happens

Mississippi and other states used to have similar requirements, to prevent poor black people from buying guns against the KKK. I'm sorry to see that similar dreams aren't dead yet in the United States. Strangely enough, it's these Democrats who still believe in this...I've never quite understood why.

Defensive gun use in the USA outnumbers gun homicides by a factor of five to ten to eighty to two hundred; it's a very spotty area of study. Murder is, of course, more newsworthy.


Source please for DGU rate vs. Homicide rate? I'm unfamiliar with that comparison. Thanks
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-04 01:49:03
October 04 2015 01:45 GMT
#11324
On October 04 2015 10:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2015 10:09 acker wrote:
On October 04 2015 09:58 Impervious wrote:
I like this, but instead of a ridiculous licensing cost, I'd rather see them add some kind of ridiculous bond, like 50 grand when you go for the license. To be forfeited 100% upon the smallest infraction. But should you sell the weapon, you can get the money back. That way it only really costs the irresponsible gun owners.

Also, I kinda chuckled at the new name of this thread (it might have changed ages ago and I never noticed though), and then felt bad about it because of how much this shit happens

Mississippi and other states used to have similar requirements, to prevent poor black people from buying guns against the KKK. I'm sorry to see that similar dreams aren't dead yet in the United States. Strangely enough, it's these Democrats who still believe in this...I've never quite understood why.

Defensive gun use in the USA outnumbers gun homicides by a factor of five to ten to eighty to two hundred; it's a very spotty area of study. Murder is, of course, more newsworthy.


Source please for DGU rate vs. Homicide rate? I'm unfamiliar with that comparison. Thanks


On mobile phone, can't link effectively. Wikipedia's "defensive gun use" page has a smattering of linked literature. The CDC should have a review of the available research from...sometime in the last decade or so linked in varying locations (use google). NCVS should also have reported DGU incidents.

Gun homicide is around 10k, of 30k gun deaths (google).

There isn't much literature on it, as its hard to quantify. But defensive gun use is at least a magnitude of order more common than gun homicides.
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4222 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-04 01:58:45
October 04 2015 01:58 GMT
#11325
On October 04 2015 10:09 acker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2015 09:58 Impervious wrote:
I like this, but instead of a ridiculous licensing cost, I'd rather see them add some kind of ridiculous bond, like 50 grand when you go for the license. To be forfeited 100% upon the smallest infraction. But should you sell the weapon, you can get the money back. That way it only really costs the irresponsible gun owners.

Also, I kinda chuckled at the new name of this thread (it might have changed ages ago and I never noticed though), and then felt bad about it because of how much this shit happens

Mississippi and other states used to have similar requirements, to prevent poor black people from buying guns against the KKK. I'm sorry to see that similar dreams aren't dead yet in the United States. Strangely enough, it's these Democrats who still believe in this...I've never quite understood why.

Defensive gun use in the USA outnumbers gun homicides by a factor of five to ten to eighty to two hundred; it's a very spotty area of study. Murder is, of course, more newsworthy.

I've never actually thought about it that way. Now that I do I agree that it's not a good solution, but I still think that there needs to be much stricter licensing of guns, and much more to lose for irresponsible gun owners before they do something stupid that may actually injure or kill someone though.
~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-04 02:05:00
October 04 2015 02:02 GMT
#11326
On October 04 2015 10:58 Impervious wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2015 10:09 acker wrote:
On October 04 2015 09:58 Impervious wrote:
I like this, but instead of a ridiculous licensing cost, I'd rather see them add some kind of ridiculous bond, like 50 grand when you go for the license. To be forfeited 100% upon the smallest infraction. But should you sell the weapon, you can get the money back. That way it only really costs the irresponsible gun owners.

Also, I kinda chuckled at the new name of this thread (it might have changed ages ago and I never noticed though), and then felt bad about it because of how much this shit happens

Mississippi and other states used to have similar requirements, to prevent poor black people from buying guns against the KKK. I'm sorry to see that similar dreams aren't dead yet in the United States. Strangely enough, it's these Democrats who still believe in this...I've never quite understood why.

Defensive gun use in the USA outnumbers gun homicides by a factor of five to ten to eighty to two hundred; it's a very spotty area of study. Murder is, of course, more newsworthy.

I've never actually thought about it that way. Now that I do I agree that it's not a good solution, but I still think that there needs to be much stricter licensing of guns, and much more to lose for irresponsible gun owners before they do something stupid that may actually injure or kill someone though.


Fun fact: Martin Luther King applied for a concealed handgun license during his marches in then may-issue Alabama and Missouri. He was, of course, rejected. At which point he simply had armed volunteers posted around his house and scattered guns in his living room.

Maybe it kept him alive long enough to say what he had to say. Of course, he died the same way, so...

It's very similar to the reasons why Democrats get angry about voter registration and other such obstacles. The stakes are, of course, greater.
Impervious
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada4222 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-04 02:32:40
October 04 2015 02:19 GMT
#11327
On October 04 2015 11:02 acker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2015 10:58 Impervious wrote:
On October 04 2015 10:09 acker wrote:
On October 04 2015 09:58 Impervious wrote:
I like this, but instead of a ridiculous licensing cost, I'd rather see them add some kind of ridiculous bond, like 50 grand when you go for the license. To be forfeited 100% upon the smallest infraction. But should you sell the weapon, you can get the money back. That way it only really costs the irresponsible gun owners.

Also, I kinda chuckled at the new name of this thread (it might have changed ages ago and I never noticed though), and then felt bad about it because of how much this shit happens

Mississippi and other states used to have similar requirements, to prevent poor black people from buying guns against the KKK. I'm sorry to see that similar dreams aren't dead yet in the United States. Strangely enough, it's these Democrats who still believe in this...I've never quite understood why.

Defensive gun use in the USA outnumbers gun homicides by a factor of five to ten to eighty to two hundred; it's a very spotty area of study. Murder is, of course, more newsworthy.

I've never actually thought about it that way. Now that I do I agree that it's not a good solution, but I still think that there needs to be much stricter licensing of guns, and much more to lose for irresponsible gun owners before they do something stupid that may actually injure or kill someone though.


Fun fact: Martin Luther King applied for a concealed handgun license during his marches in then may-issue Alabama and Missouri. He was, of course, rejected. At which point he simply had armed volunteers posted around his house and scattered guns in his living room.

Maybe it kept him alive long enough to say what he had to say. Of course, he died the same way, so...

It's very similar to the reasons why Democrats get angry about voter registration and other such obstacles. The stakes are, of course, greater.

I'm not American. I'm Canadian. My family has owned guns. Many of my friends own guns. If any one of them didn't keep them properly locked up at all times when they are not being used and attended to, or did not use them safely and attended to properly while not locked up, I would give them shit for it without hesitation.

A gun is a tool. In the right hands, it can be used for good purposes. In the wrong hands, it can kill people. Someone's right to have access to guns does not override the rest of society's right to be safe and secure in my mind, and virtually every other Canadian you will ever talk to will agree. We have a lot of guns up here too, but we're far more responsible as a whole with them. And keeping guns out of the hands of those who have any kind of reasonable risk of doing something stupid with them is part of that.

What you've shown is not that the government has a smart policy on gun control, what you've shown is that the government has been very racist in the past, and in a lot of ways still is, with regards to how they apply the laws in place. These are two separate, yet somewhat intertwined issues.

EDIT - another fun fact. The only place I've ever been shot at was one time I was in Detroit. I sure as hell am not going back there.....
~ \(ˌ)im-ˈpər-vē-əs\ : not capable of being damaged or harmed.
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-04 02:42:44
October 04 2015 02:42 GMT
#11328
On October 04 2015 11:19 Impervious wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2015 11:02 acker wrote:
On October 04 2015 10:58 Impervious wrote:
On October 04 2015 10:09 acker wrote:
On October 04 2015 09:58 Impervious wrote:
I like this, but instead of a ridiculous licensing cost, I'd rather see them add some kind of ridiculous bond, like 50 grand when you go for the license. To be forfeited 100% upon the smallest infraction. But should you sell the weapon, you can get the money back. That way it only really costs the irresponsible gun owners.

Also, I kinda chuckled at the new name of this thread (it might have changed ages ago and I never noticed though), and then felt bad about it because of how much this shit happens

Mississippi and other states used to have similar requirements, to prevent poor black people from buying guns against the KKK. I'm sorry to see that similar dreams aren't dead yet in the United States. Strangely enough, it's these Democrats who still believe in this...I've never quite understood why.

Defensive gun use in the USA outnumbers gun homicides by a factor of five to ten to eighty to two hundred; it's a very spotty area of study. Murder is, of course, more newsworthy.

I've never actually thought about it that way. Now that I do I agree that it's not a good solution, but I still think that there needs to be much stricter licensing of guns, and much more to lose for irresponsible gun owners before they do something stupid that may actually injure or kill someone though.


Fun fact: Martin Luther King applied for a concealed handgun license during his marches in then may-issue Alabama and Missouri. He was, of course, rejected. At which point he simply had armed volunteers posted around his house and scattered guns in his living room.

Maybe it kept him alive long enough to say what he had to say. Of course, he died the same way, so...

It's very similar to the reasons why Democrats get angry about voter registration and other such obstacles. The stakes are, of course, greater.

I'm not American. I'm Canadian. My family has owned guns. Many of my friends own guns. If any one of them didn't keep them properly locked up at all times when they are not being used and attended to, or did not use them safely and attended to properly while not locked up, I would give them shit for it without hesitation.

A gun is a tool. In the right hands, it can be used for good purposes. In the wrong hands, it can kill people. Someone's right to have access to guns does not override the rest of society's right to be safe and secure in my mind, and virtually every other Canadian you will ever talk to will agree. We have a lot of guns up here too, but we're far more responsible as a whole with them. And keeping guns out of the hands of those who have any kind of reasonable risk of doing something stupid with them is part of that.

What you've shown is not that the government has a smart policy on gun control, what you've shown is that the government has been very racist in the past, and in a lot of ways still is, with regards to how they apply the laws in place. These are two separate, yet somewhat intertwined issues.

EDIT - another fun fact. The only place I've ever been shot at was one time I was in Detroit. I sure as hell am not going back there.....

Bro you're in a DGU statistic somewhere.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 04 2015 03:18 GMT
#11329
Defensive gun use isn't that important to compare to homicide, as the linked sources seem to be including many issues and cases that are of far less severity than homicide (i.e. defensive gun use case doesn't mean death was avoided). Looking over the wiki article and its talk page, there seem to be some problems with it as well.


All the more reason we need to get more reliable and thorough research in.
With thorough, sound research, we can get some actually reliable data to make decisions based off of; instead of what we have now.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
acker
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2958 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-04 03:48:07
October 04 2015 03:31 GMT
#11330
On October 04 2015 12:18 zlefin wrote:
Defensive gun use isn't that important to compare to homicide, as the linked sources seem to be including many issues and cases that are of far less severity than homicide (i.e. defensive gun use case doesn't mean death was avoided). Looking over the wiki article and its talk page, there seem to be some problems with it as well.


All the more reason we need to get more reliable and thorough research in.
With thorough, sound research, we can get some actually reliable data to make decisions based off of; instead of what we have now.


The literature the wiki links to should not be affected by the perceived quality of the article.

By definition, it's impossible to know if a DGU saves someone from death as they didn't die. If someone blows away a guy who's pointing a gun at a crowd, it's impossible to say if he prevented a mass murder for the same reasons.

All that can be said is that they had a reasonable fear of death at the hands of someone or something.
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
October 04 2015 04:32 GMT
#11331
On October 04 2015 12:31 acker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2015 12:18 zlefin wrote:
Defensive gun use isn't that important to compare to homicide, as the linked sources seem to be including many issues and cases that are of far less severity than homicide (i.e. defensive gun use case doesn't mean death was avoided). Looking over the wiki article and its talk page, there seem to be some problems with it as well.


All the more reason we need to get more reliable and thorough research in.
With thorough, sound research, we can get some actually reliable data to make decisions based off of; instead of what we have now.


The literature the wiki links to should not be affected by the perceived quality of the article.

By definition, it's impossible to know if a DGU saves someone from death as they didn't die. If someone blows away a guy who's pointing a gun at a crowd, it's impossible to say if he prevented a mass murder for the same reasons.

All that can be said is that they had a reasonable fear of death at the hands of someone or something.

Reasonable fear, including the fear that cops have that people who aren't dead can hurt them.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States6629 Posts
October 04 2015 05:42 GMT
#11332
On October 04 2015 13:32 Jormundr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 04 2015 12:31 acker wrote:
On October 04 2015 12:18 zlefin wrote:
Defensive gun use isn't that important to compare to homicide, as the linked sources seem to be including many issues and cases that are of far less severity than homicide (i.e. defensive gun use case doesn't mean death was avoided). Looking over the wiki article and its talk page, there seem to be some problems with it as well.


All the more reason we need to get more reliable and thorough research in.
With thorough, sound research, we can get some actually reliable data to make decisions based off of; instead of what we have now.


The literature the wiki links to should not be affected by the perceived quality of the article.

By definition, it's impossible to know if a DGU saves someone from death as they didn't die. If someone blows away a guy who's pointing a gun at a crowd, it's impossible to say if he prevented a mass murder for the same reasons.

All that can be said is that they had a reasonable fear of death at the hands of someone or something.

Reasonable fear, including the fear that cops have that people who aren't dead can hurt them.

Are you saying you don't want people or police to have guns, or what point are you trying to make?
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
BillGates
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
471 Posts
October 04 2015 07:47 GMT
#11333
On February 20 2012 03:05 Dr. Von Derful wrote:
Gun control only serves to make it harder (or impossible) for law abiding citizens to have and use them for either home defense, the illusion of safety, or whatever reason they feel they want to have said weapon. If someone wants to obtain a gun to kill someone, gun control isn't going to put up any barrier to prevent this to happen as they are most likely already obtaining this weapon illegally.

That being said, gun ownership only poses one problem in my mind and that is vigilantism or the "Make My Day" law. Unfortunately, a large contingent of gun owners aren't qualified to be using them and should they deem it necessary to use them to protect others, they only serve to endanger or further exacerbate a dire situation.

I'm all for relaxed gun control laws. I find it obscene that any government can remove the ability of a populus to defend itself from terrorist and tyrants alike. I do feel that there needs to be some sort of mandatory / provided class(es) or training that completely familiarizes the individual with the use of the weapon, proper storage, understanding of munition the weapon uses, maintenance of the weapon and situations in which a concealed carry permit would be merited.


Only a culture of gun ownership can do that, where people teach their kids from a relatively young age (13 or 14) how to properly and safely use guns.

You can't have it through government mandated programs, that would just become another restriction to gun ownership!
DucK-
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Singapore11449 Posts
October 04 2015 08:10 GMT
#11334
As much as I am against guns, I can buy into arguments that you may need a gun for protection etc when the gun culture is already so deeply rooted in the US. What I feel can NEVER be justified are:

1. Rifles/military grade weapons
2. Automatic weapons

If you need a hunting rifle to protect against animals, sure I could accept that. If you need a concealed pistol to protect yourself, ok cool. But why the hell would you need to be carrying a AR15 around or in the house. ZERO justification. You're preparing yourself against a war in your backyard?
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada17992 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-04 08:27:08
October 04 2015 08:19 GMT
#11335
animals kill other animals. humans are animals.

the planet is overpopulated with humans. so humans are killing other humans as they run out of space. the solution is a world population less than 1/10 what it is now.

1/2 the reason canada is such agreat place to live is the low # of people spread out over a large area. you don't like how things are goin' .. just move up north.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
hfglgg
Profile Joined December 2012
Germany5372 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-04 08:26:45
October 04 2015 08:25 GMT
#11336
well europe is like 50 times as densly populated as america and we do just fine.
but we have done a lot of gun oriented population control in the past, maybe we are still an acceptable number.
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada17992 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-04 08:31:18
October 04 2015 08:30 GMT
#11337
WW2?

there are a million zillion variables involved in the phenomenon i'm talking about. culture is a factor. however, as human population climbs... more and more humans will kill other humans. it'll get really bad when the food supply is maxed out.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
hfglgg
Profile Joined December 2012
Germany5372 Posts
October 04 2015 08:41 GMT
#11338
until the end of ww2, europe was more or less the warhamer 40k universe.
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-04 09:48:23
October 04 2015 09:45 GMT
#11339
On October 04 2015 17:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
animals kill other animals. humans are animals.

the planet is overpopulated with humans. so humans are killing other humans as they run out of space. the solution is a world population less than 1/10 what it is now.

1/2 the reason canada is such agreat place to live is the low # of people spread out over a large area. you don't like how things are goin' .. just move up north.


I don't think this is at all applicable to this discussion, these aren't people killing each other over lack of access to land and living space, this is people killing other people due to a poisonous cultural identity and lack of adequate access to social and mental care.

Crime rate is going to go up in densely populated areas due to a much higher prevalence of individualized conflicts and opportunities for exploitation, but that hardly has anything whatever to do with running out of space. People are naturally going to gravitate towards convenient geographical, political, and economic centers regardless of how densely populated the rest of the sovereign land boundaries are.

For example, the highest top ~40 population density cities in the world are mostly in France, India and the Philippines, notably absent are China (only Macau makes top 30), US, Indonesia, and Brazil.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
rawb
Profile Joined September 2010
United States252 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-04 12:40:03
October 04 2015 12:39 GMT
#11340
On October 04 2015 17:10 DucK- wrote:
As much as I am against guns, I can buy into arguments that you may need a gun for protection etc when the gun culture is already so deeply rooted in the US. What I feel can NEVER be justified are:

1. Rifles/military grade weapons
2. Automatic weapons

If you need a hunting rifle to protect against animals, sure I could accept that. If you need a concealed pistol to protect yourself, ok cool. But why the hell would you need to be carrying a AR15 around or in the house. ZERO justification. You're preparing yourself against a war in your backyard?


The only difference between a rifle that you'd take hunting and an ar15 is that the hunting rifle could potentially have a higher caliber bullet. Both are semi-automatic.

I'm not sure what you mean by military grade - the M16 fires 5.56mm rounds whereas a 9mm handgun, well, fires 9mm rounds.
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